Also, avenger vigilante can basically VMC fighter, spend their vigilante talents on combat feats or the talents that give multiple feats over time and be a fighter + all the social talents + way more skills + better base saves for an average of 1 hp less per levelIt costs a fighter 2 feats (or two weapon training choices) to pick up all good saves. Armed Bravery + Fighter's Reflexes.
I think the considerable opportunity cost to having "all good saves" is that this occupies AWT slots, which are far more precious than feats.
If it was just feats you could have all good saves at level 1, which would be nice.
Also, avenger vigilante can basically VMC fighter, spend their vigilante talents on combat feats or the talents that give multiple feats over time and be a fighter + all the social talents + way more skills + better base saves for an average of 1 hp less per levelIt costs a fighter 2 feats (or two weapon training choices) to pick up all good saves. Armed Bravery + Fighter's Reflexes.I think the considerable opportunity cost to having "all good saves" is that this occupies AWT slots, which are far more precious than feats.
If it was just feats you could have all good saves at level 1, which would be nice.
Now, i'm not one of the "fighter is utterly useless" crowd.
But sketch out 15 levels of avenger vigilante vmc and 15 levels of fighter using the same combat style (2hander/finesse/archery/thrown/whatevs) and you'll see that avenger has the same number of feats as a fighter, and possibly more depending on the combat style they choose. In fact if you VMC fighter, there is a delay on when they can access it but they can have 2 AWT options to a fighters 3 at level 10. I LIKE avenger vigilante, i really do but it treads heavily on fighters niche, gobs of feats.
Edit: and they did less to differentiate it from fighter than they did to differentiate stalker from rogue.
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Also, avenger vigilante can basically VMC fighter, spend their vigilante talents on combat feats or the talents that give multiple feats over time and be a fighter + all the social talents + way more skills + better base saves for an average of 1 hp less per levelIt costs a fighter 2 feats (or two weapon training choices) to pick up all good saves. Armed Bravery + Fighter's Reflexes.I think the considerable opportunity cost to having "all good saves" is that this occupies AWT slots, which are far more precious than feats.
If it was just feats you could have all good saves at level 1, which would be nice.
Now, i'm not one of the "fighter is utterly useless" crowd.
But sketch out 15 levels of avenger vigilante vmc and 15 levels of fighter using the same combat style (2hander/finesse/archery/thrown/whatevs) and you'll see that avenger has the same number of feats as a fighter, and possibly more depending on the combat style they choose. In fact if you VMC fighter, there is a delay on when they can access it but they can have 2 AWT options to a fighters 3 at level 10. I LIKE avenger vigilante, i really do but it treads heavily on fighters niche, gobs of feats.
Edit: and they did less to differentiate it from fighter than they did to differentiate stalker from rogue.
It's really hard not to step on Fighter's toes, especially with an intentionally do-anything class built for intrigue and versatility by necessity.
I was honestly mulling what the fighter would look like if we dropped the requirement of the "at most once per 5 fighter levels" clause in the AWT feat (so just require weapon training, and the Fighter class, maybe include some language to limit access by classes with weapon training that have "count as a fighter for feats" class features.)
If someone were able to spend spend six of their feats their feats after level 5 to get Abundant Tactics, Armed Bravery, Combat Maneuver Defense, Fighter's Reflexes, Trained Initiative, and Versatile Training, would that honestly pose a balance issue?
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I was honestly mulling what the fighter would look like if we dropped the requirement of the "at most once per 5 fighter levels" clause in the AWT feat (so just require weapon training, and the Fighter class).
If someone were able to spend spend six feats their feats after level 5 to get Abundant Tactics, Armed Bravery, Combat Maneuver Defense, Fighter's Reflexes, Trained Initiative, and Versatile Training, would that honestly pose a balance issue?
It seems like it could help balance.
I was honestly mulling what the fighter would look like if we dropped the requirement of the "at most once per 5 fighter levels" clause in the AWT feat (so just require weapon training, and the Fighter class, maybe include some language to limit access by classes with weapon training that have "count as a fighter for feats" class features.)
If someone were able to spend spend six of their feats their feats after level 5 to get Abundant Tactics, Armed Bravery, Combat Maneuver Defense, Fighter's Reflexes, Trained Initiative, and Versatile Training, would that honestly pose a balance issue?
It depends on where you balance. I tend to balance toward "if it isn't more powerful than wizard or cleric its probably going to be ok" Others get testy if it might outshine another martial class.
It seems like it could help balance.
That's honestly what I was thinking, then the "trade away training for a weapon group you don't need" is akin to "a free feat that's really good" rather than "the most valuable resource the fighter has.
But I kind of want to see it in practice.
It depends on where you balance. I tend to balance toward "if it isn't more powerful than wizard or cleric its probably going to be ok" Others get testy if it might outshine another martial class.
The way I see how the fighter ought to be relative to the other martial classes is that while the other classes have flashy special abilities the fighter cannot easily replicate (smite, (blood)rage, favored enemy, spellcasting, style strikes, ki powers, deeds etc.) the fighter who does better at the basic foundations of fighting than anybody else. So things like "the fighter has really good initiative, saves, CMD, AC" etc. feels right, and removing the significant opportunity cost for AWT (those slots are really tight) would make this a lot easier.
I was honestly mulling what the fighter would look like if we dropped the requirement of the "at most once per 5 fighter levels" clause in the AWT feat (so just require weapon training, and the Fighter class, maybe include some language to limit access by classes with weapon training that have "count as a fighter for feats" class features.)
3 level dips into weapon master for everyone?
3 level dips into weapon master for everyone?
Is there any way to distinguish, via rules text, a difference between "actual levels of the fighter class" and "counts as a fighter of a certain level"?
Since what I was thinking was to limit number of AWTs to the number of actual levels of the fighter class you have, and dipping wouldn't be that dramatically effective since a lot of the best AWT options scale on your weapon training bonus or your bravery. Versatile training gives you your BAB to two skills, which is like twice as good as cunning but you're limited in which skills and you had to jump through hoops to get there.
After all, adding your bravery bonus or your weapon training bonus to something isn't that impressive a use of a feat if it's just a +1 bonus.
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I was honestly mulling what the fighter would look like if we dropped the requirement of the "at most once per 5 fighter levels" clause in the AWT feat (so just require weapon training, and the Fighter class, maybe include some language to limit access by classes with weapon training that have "count as a fighter for feats" class features.)3 level dips into weapon master for everyone?
Perhaps it's restricted to one per two Fighter levels?
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I honestly don't think itd be that big of a deal. 3 level dips are pretty big dips, and most of that AWT stuff that has real balance implications is linked to how strong your weapon training bonus or bravery bonus is. Like taking warrior spirit gives you what, 2 minutes of +1 to a weapon, +3 if you take gloves of dueling. ALmost everything else is tied to how strong your weapon training is.
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I honestly don't think itd be that big of a deal. 3 level dips are pretty big dips, and most of that AWT stuff that has real balance implications is linked to how strong your weapon training bonus or bravery bonus is. Like taking warrior spirit gives you what, 2 minutes of +1 to a weapon, +3 if you take gloves of dueling. ALmost everything else is tied to how strong your weapon training is.
Fair point. It's no worse than MoMS or UnRogue, surely.
I honestly don't think itd be that big of a deal. 3 level dips are pretty big dips, and most of that AWT stuff that has real balance implications is linked to how strong your weapon training bonus or bravery bonus is. Like taking warrior spirit gives you what, 2 minutes of +1 to a weapon, +3 if you take gloves of dueling. ALmost everything else is tied to how strong your weapon training is.Fair point. It's no worse than MoMS or UnRogue, surely.
Realistically 3 level dips should be the kiss of death to any 6 or 9 level casting class. Not that people wont try it out but the loss of 3 casting levels is 1 to 2 spell levels for 9 level casters and not getting 2nd level spells til level 7 for the 2/3 casters.
Oh, maybe change "Weapon Training" to read:
Beginning at 6th level, instead of selecting a bonus combat feat, a fighter may choose an advanced weapon training option. Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option
Then you have three sources of AWT:
1) Trade away weapon groups (once every 4 levels after 5)2) Trade away a bonus feat (once every other level after level 5)
3) Select AWT with a feat (once every 5 levels.)
That's probably balanced and unambiguous. Then you've got AWT as sorta-vigilante-talents for the Fighter.
So if you know of or have a build that is "impossible or totally impractical without a Fighter's massive stock of bonus feats" I'd like to see it.Sure; fun concept build for a Dervish Fighter:
Sandstorm Dervish
Dawnflower Dervish Fighter 12
Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 15DEX, 13CON, 10INT, 15/17WIS, 7CHA
Where did/would you put your level up stat bumps?
Where did/would you put your level up stat bumps?So if you know of or have a build that is "impossible or totally impractical without a Fighter's massive stock of bonus feats" I'd like to see it.Sure; fun concept build for a Dervish Fighter:
Sandstorm Dervish
Dawnflower Dervish Fighter 12
Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 15DEX, 13CON, 10INT, 15/17WIS, 7CHA
I assumed STR at 4, WIS at 8, +2DEX from some kind of item or other. Ioun Stone or Snakeskin Tunic being the easiest, I think.
The whole thing could also be reworked with a one level Urban Bloodrager dip and an Extra Rage plus Rage Rounds trait, which would allow for adding to DEX or STR at will and using two Furious scimitars. But that delays Rapid Attack a level, and I wanted to stick to pure Fighter.
and your lv12 bump?
and your lv12 bump?
I dunno... I guess STR if there was any expectation of reaching the next modifier, or just CON if not. Or maybe DEX for the initiative and AC? Hard to choose. I don't think odd-numbered enhancement items is really much of a thing anymore, but there's always maybe a +1 ability score Tome find or something.
So if you know of or have a build that is "impossible or totally impractical without a Fighter's massive stock of bonus feats" I'd like to see it.Sure; fun concept build for a Dervish Fighter:
Sandstorm Dervish
Dawnflower Dervish Fighter 12
Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 15DEX, 13CON, 10INT, 15/17WIS, 7CHA1. Two-Weapon Fighting / +Double Slice
2. +Fighter Retraining -> 8
3. Weapon Focus: Scimitar
4. +Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
5. Advanced Weapon Training: Defensive Weapon Training
6. +Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Improved Unarmed Strike
8. Fighter Retraining: +Elemental Fist / Touch of Serenity
9. *Advanced Weapon Training: Abundant Tactics / Shaitan Style
10. +Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Initiative
11. *Rapid Attack* / Shaitan Skin
12. +Two-Weapon RendDual wields Effortless Lace scimitars - if Effortless Lace is unavailable, takes Advanced Weapon Training: Effortless Dual-Wielding. Solid attack and damage on a full attack through the usual Fighter bonuses plus dual-wield.
At level 8, can begin to throw Touch of Serenity at targets in place of making a single attack; Will save DC scales with character level and WIS. Abundant Tactics brings more uses/day.
At level 9, can add a chunk of acid damage once per round with Elemental Fist, making standard attacks or charges pretty fierce for a one-handed weapon strike. Abundant Tactics brings plenty of uses/day.
At level 11, gives up one attack out of 4/5 to Rapid Attack when unable to make a regular full attack, or when mobility is preferable.
Also at level 11, uses Shaitan Skin to throw Reflex-save-or-staggered Elemental Fist acid damage. Acid/stagger triggers even on a missed attack. DC scales based on character level and WIS.
With a mithral breastplate +3 and 3 shield ac from AWT and we’ll say +2 amulet of natural armor you have 27Ac and 100hp, also assuming that you have the gloves of dueling, two +2 weapons, a +6 str belt, snakeskin tunic and +3 cloak of resistance.
Finishing up at
Hp 100
Stats are 24/17/14/10/18/7
Init +7
Saves of 13/10/11 +2 against poison
AC 27
Attack of +21/+21/+16/+16/+11 for 1d6+15 18-20x2
And TWRend is 1d10+10
2 skills per level
FCB is free
This I feel had the closest feel to your build.
Mostly Human, Crystalline Form, Granite Skin
stats are 16/18STR, 14DEX, 13CON, 7INT, 16/18WIS, 7/5CHA
Ending at 20, 14, 14, 7, 18, 5
Snakeskin tunic, belt of str +6, +3 Sansetsukon, cloak of resist +3, headband of wis +4, Cracked Pale Green Prism
Finishing up at
Hp 100
Stats are 26/16/14/7/22/5
Init +7
Saves of 13/14/13 +2 against enchantment and poison
Evasion, Immunity to diseases, improved evasion
AC 30
Attack of +25/+25/+25/+20/+15 for 1d10+15 17-20x2
Attack of +21/+21/+21/+16/+11 for 1d10+27 17-20x2
IUS attack of +21 for 2d6+8
2 skills per level
Ki pool 17
Flying kick 40ft
FCB using human FCB to add to ki pool
Monk bonus feats:
Stunning fist, Dodge, Combat reflexes, Mobility, Improved crit
Ki powers:
Barkskin, Elemental Fury, Insightful Wisdom, Ki leach, Free
Feats:
Improved init
Weapon focus Sansetsukon
Power attack
toughness/cunning - to match whichever choice the FCB goes for fighter.
Touch of Serenity
Extra ki
So the plan is to use your flying kick style strike coupled with stunning fist or touch of serenity to get you into full attack range. Best done with the extra Ki pool attack since that is required to be an unarmed strike. So swift action IUS attack to close gap then full attack with all 5 normal attacks. Also using barkskin with ki for great AC, and mobility helps us be able to get to our targets without worrying about provoking. Activating elemental fury allows for 1d6 acid damage per hit for 6 rounds.
My saves are better, I have immunity to disease and imp evasion, my move and attacking comes online at lv5, My attacks either do a lot more damage or are a lot more accurate. I'm able to get all 5 of them off when moving instead of giving up one of my best. Just as many skill points as the fighter. I can give save re-rolls to teammates, and have a free ki power to choose for desired utility. If retraining is allowed then trade power attack, extra ki and toughness for element fist, Shaitan style and Shaitan skin, but as is I can attempt stunning instead of staggered and stunning is better, and I have a higher DC they need to beat.
This I feel had the closest feel to your build.
Your ruthlessly optimized, totally stat-dumped, two-handed sansetusukon / unarmed strike drooling-Oread Monk does the dual-scimitar Qadiran warrior concept better? A lot of the fundamental choices I made on that posted build were for flavor/character. As far as I can tell, you're just grinding out the largest numbers you can on a different concept entirely. I said 'fun and interesting builds', not OpTImiZaTIoN CHalLenGE!
And... 7INT/5CHA Oread? I mean it could be funny RP but... yikes.
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This I feel had the closest feel to your build.A lot of the fundamental choices I made on that posted build were for flavor/character.
And this is the (a) fundamental problem with the system. One should not need to compromise their in game effectiveness in the name of "flavor." So no, the Oread is not a dual-scimitar Qadiran warrior, but don't you think it's reasonable that your warrior should be of comparable power to another, regardless of flavor?
("Power" in this sense does not mean "same numbers and abilities")
This I feel had the closest feel to your build.A lot of the fundamental choices I made on that posted build were for flavor/character.And this is the (a) fundamental problem with the system. One should not need to compromise their in game effectiveness in the name of "flavor." So no, the Oread is not a dual-scimitar Qadiran warrior, but don't you think it's reasonable that your warrior should be of comparable power to another, regardless of flavor?
("Power" in this sense does not mean "same numbers and abilities")
It is pretty comparable. Weapon Training means that even after the -2 from TWF and a slightly lower STR, accuracy isn't really any different. Damage from Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization and Two-Weapon Rend is quite solid, and not that different either.
My only point about choices made for 'flavor' is that I didn't just pick every possible 'best' option. His "similar feel" Monk didn't even go with a sword, but instead used an exotic Monk weapon - because there was a single point of damage to be scrounged from it.
Ultimately, having Fighter with the Dervish Archetype means I was able to create a dual-scimitar Qadiran warrior with some very cool extra powers who is very competent in combat. Nothing about that is somehow changed because someone could heavily optimize an Unchained Monk with totally different weapons and flavor to do something similar with marginally better numbers here or there.
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Ultimately, having Fighter with the Dervish Archetype means I was able to create a dual-scimitar Qadiran warrior with some very cool extra powers who is very competent in combat. Nothing about that is somehow changed because someone could heavily optimize an Unchained Monk with totally different weapons and flavor to do something similar with marginally better numbers here or there.
Don't waste your time, sir. "That's not the character I want to play" was apparently ruled out as a reason to make your own decisions about your character several hundred posts ago.
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I'm sorry, I was unaware that the fighter was just for dual wielding scimitar's and not a fighter build using the archetype to pull of something that requires tons of feats.
Mechanically you do a move action and 4/5ths of a full attack with 2 skills per level. And it's not marginally better numbers, +12 damage per hit is like 40% of the damage you do per hit. This made for easier comparison than going pouncing barb or the avenger vigilante since I was pulling just as many attacks.
The build works just fine going dual talent human like you did and I'd be able to lower wisdom to match your to raise the INT and or CHA if you don't like the stats and race.
But apparently your build wasn't of a fighter but of a qadiran dual-scimitar warrior. Where the entire point wasn't making a good fighter build because it's a fighter but making a TWF with scimitars.
So Unchained barbarian,
1. Two-Weapon Fighting
2. beast totem lesser
3. Double Slice
4. accurate stance
5.
6. beast totem+
7. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8.
9.
10. beast totem
11. Two-Weapon Rend
12.
Trade out the +2 swords for +1 furious swords, with beast totem you have better AC, accurate stance gives you better accuracy, now fits the qadiran that TWFs with scimitars. Now you get 4 skill points per level with better class skills.
So a dual-scimitar Qadiran warrior with some very cool extra powers who is more competent in combat and out of combat.
EDIT:
Plus if scimitar's are key, take a level of cleric in the monk build and pick up crusader's flurry to flurry with scimitars, you can even use two of them.
Mechanically you do a move action and 4/5ths of a full attack with 2 skills per level. And it's not marginally better numbers, +12 damage per hit is like 40% of the damage you do per hit.
Sansetsukon with a straight +12STR isn't really that different from a scimitar with +6STR +2feat +4training. An extra Style Strike attack with an unarmed attack isn't really much different than Two-Weapon Rend. I could have used the AWT feature that granted 1d10 scimitar dice, but I didn't care about stacking a couple points more damage onto an already deadly build. The accuracy bonus from having a couple more points of strength and not taking a TWF penalty ends up countered by the huge +4 Weapon Training bonus (about to be a +5 at level 13). Power Attack will improve the overall average damage most of the time, but you're taking a -4 to attack bonus on a class without any attack bonus feature, so it's hardly some kind of freebie.
Besides the flavor and the bonus damage, Shaitan Style is particularly desirable because it's a reflex save; Stunning Fist requires beating fortitude saves. Throwing Stunning Fist with an unarmed strike that has a weak attack bonus is also tempting fate, while Shaitan will typically trigger even on a miss.
But really, none of this in any way says anything about doing the actual concept better one way or the other, since it's a dramatically different concept to begin with.
So Unchained barbarian,
Your ragepounce Barbarian example doesn't have any of the interesting supernatural abilities... because they don't even begin to have enough feats. Even on a purely mechanical level, their damage bonus from Rage/Furious comes up short compared to the Fighter's Weapon Training and Specialization, and they can't ragepounce until round 2 anyhow since they're burning a move action to activate their stance.
I'm sorry, I was unaware that the fighter was just for dual wielding scimitar's and not a fighter build using the archetype to pull of something that requires tons of feats.
I used Fighter to go dual-scimitar effectively with the static bonuses and the skill-and-training theme, plus having the interesting abilities I wanted which would normally cost way too many feats, plus having a mobility trick at higher levels from the Archetype. In other words, for pulling off a 'Fighter-flavored' (defined by training and feat-abilities) build that requires tons of feats.
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Your move attack routine is +21/+16/+16/+11 4 attacks at 1d6 +15 and maybe a rend.
Mine is +21/+21/+21/+16/+11 5 attacks for 1d10+27. I'm just as accurate as your attacks and getting off more of my most accurate attacks when I power attack. If accuracy is an issue I can stop power attacking to do the same damage as your attacks but at +4 more accuracy, plus still having more accurate attacks.
The barb has 2 open feats and 2 open rage powers, that allows you to pick up touch of serenity and some rage powers to supplement your plan.
barb is at +12 bab, +8str, +3rage, +3weapon -2 TWF = +24 to hit this is at base more accurate than your fighter, so accurate stance is just available when you need the accuracy boost or if you want to take power attack and start using it. And I have the +2 for charging often.
damage is 1d6+8str+3rage+3weapon = 1d6+14. SO I have an extra attack, all my attacks are more accurate, and they are only 1 less damage per hit.
Heck the barb can swap accurate stance to have 3 rage power for bloodline rage powers for elemental to have flying or burrow. Or a different bloodrage power tree.
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That honestly doesn't seem to require a fighter. A 1st level warpriest with the earth blessing and TWF sets up the baseline at level 1 (rather than 8), and can charge attacks for the duration of fights, rather than a handful of strikes over the course of a day. Or just make the scimitars flaming with sacred weapon, which seems more Dawnflower appropriate anyway.
Repose blessing can stagger, and there are a pile of spells (sanctuary comes to mind as an alternative (if inversion) of touch of serenity), innate damage scaling and even bonus feats if you absolutely have to have shaitan skin at higher levels.
But the big deal seems to be covering the core concept from level 1 rather than dragging through 8 levels to set up the very basics.
Your move attack routine is +21/+16/+16/+11 4 attacks at 1d6 +15 and maybe a rend.
12BAB, +6 STR, +3 weapon, +1 focus, +4 weapon training (GoD), -2 TWF = 24; and let's say a cheap stone as well to make it 25.
Calculating for a high-level Fighter without Gloves of Dueling either means you're being really disingenuous, or you're really unfamiliar with Fighters.
As far as the Barbarian goes, it's a very different character in both theme and mechanics, and it still doesn't have the same thematic abilities; spending all remaining feats on ToS is kind of sad when you lack the WIS to use it well and don't have Abundant Tactics. Some spare Rage Powers obviously isn't the same thing as running Shaitan Skin.
Warpriest / Earth Blessing / Repose Blessing / Spells
Are you seriously suggesting that a standard action activation blessing and another standard activation touch attack blessing accomplishes the same thing as a no-action attack bonus? Or that a 1d4 bonus is the same thing as dropping a 1d6+WIS bonus on the single strikes where it matters the most? Or that using-up actions for spellcasting (which the Warpriest needs for self-buffing as well) can do the same thing? Or that it doesn't matter that the Warpriest misses out on the Rapid Attack feature? Or that it doesn't matter that the Warpriest can't stack-up high-level feats nearly as well?
Ultimately, having Fighter with the Dervish Archetype means I was able to create a dual-scimitar Qadiran warrior with some very cool extra powers who is very competent in combat. Nothing about that is somehow changed because someone could heavily optimize an Unchained Monk with totally different weapons and flavor to do something similar with marginally better numbers here or there.Don't waste your time, sir. "That's not the character I want to play" was apparently ruled out as a reason to make your own decisions about your character several hundred posts ago.
I should have listened I guess, rather than go on in good faith. I'm tired of playing Gish Gallop.
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You'll see in my assumptions that I was listing dueling gloves. But You are correct, I must have not counted something because the attack bonus should be higher than I listed, though you can only afford 2 +2 plus the other gear I listed and that also didn't leave room for any attack bonus ioun stone.
The barbs theme is only as different as you make it. His wisdom is just as high as the fighter's. And is the whole goal and theme of your fighter shaitan skin? Is shaitan skin the most defining feature of this build? Like it really helps if you are clear on what is the important things. If the build is required to be exactly what you made then you're right that it can't be duplicated.
Also, 1d6+4wis at lv12 on one attack isn't much damage at all. And at lv12 the warpriest has quicken blessing to pull off his blessings as a swift action. "Calculating for a high-level WP without quicken blessing either means you're being really disingenuous, or you're really unfamiliar with WP"
if you make a build for people to compare against you need to list what the important parts are. at first glance the build is a mobile TWF, that has acid damage and rider effects on his attacks.
Then it's TWF with scimitars and having SU powers while being able to move and full attack, which the barb can match.
Now granted, me messing up on the math of the fighter has skewed these comparisons somewhat. I've been reaching for the wrong benchmark.
But like I said, if you require everything in that build to count as your character's theme then you're right, no one can do exactly what that fighter can do.
You'll see in my assumptions that I was listing dueling gloves. But You are correct, I must have not counted something because the attack bonus should be higher than I listed, though you can only afford 2 +2 plus the other gear I listed and that also didn't leave room for any attack bonus ioun stone.
Two +3 scimitars and a +4STR belt (which is what I was using to get to 25ab) is 18k/18k/16k, or 52k; going with two +2's and a +6 belt comes out same numbers, same cost. A +6 belt and +3 sansetsukon is 36k/18k, or 54k. Even just baseline level 12 WBL is 108k, so there's plenty of room for other stuff even if we're assuming strict WBL and buying all gear over-the-counter, which is rarely the case.
If I had really cared about heavy optimization I would have probably started with a level of Blood Conduit + Urban Bloodrager, cashed in the free Improved Unarmed for Extra Rage, taken the Berserker trait, and had 15 rounds/day of +3/+3 from Rage/Furious. But heavy optimization wasn't the point, and I didn't feel like the flavor of a rage-dip was quite right.
And is the whole goal and theme of your fighter shaitan skin? Is shaitan skin the most defining feature of this build? Like it really helps if you are clear on what is the important things. If the build is required to be exactly what you made then you're right that it can't be duplicated.
Shaitan Skin multiple times per day plus some Touch of Serenity are exceptionally strong and interesting features, as well as just downright stylish; they save the concept from just being another blase dps-masher, and are a major part of what defines it. Dual-wielding swords is the core of the martial side of the concept. The combination - dual-scimitar warrior, mystic/holy/desert themed attack-powers - combine with secondary features stressing training and skill-at-arms for the overall picture.
"Calculating for a high-level WP without quicken blessing either means you're being really disingenuous, or you're really unfamiliar with WP".
I thought it went without saying that 1)yep, a Warpriest can get Quicken Blessing, and 2)a Warpriest already has major swift-action demands and has to spend a precious high-level feat on each Quicken Blessing. I guess I should have said it anyways.
The Dervish can draw both blades as part of their strong initiative roll, and then rush off with Rapid Attack to drop a Touch of Serenity and a Shaitan Skin - even potentially on two enemies that aren't adjacent. Assuming a Warpriest wants to cast at least one Fervor buff and activate their Sacred Weapon, they're going to start dropping Quickened Blessing on round 3 - and only one of them (though I think we can assume that any plan to use a second Blessing is gone at this point anyhow). And they have to keep spending their swift action every round to use this ability, which prevents any other uses of their valuable swifts. And a level 11 Warpriest has a total of 8/day Blessings, which means a total of 4 Quicken Blessing uses for the whole day. Frankly, I have no idea why we're talking about Warpriest as a comparison. Not that I don't love a good Warpriest.
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What you guys have discovered is that it is, with effort, possible to make a build with the Fighter that nothing else can duplicate. This is the baseline for the vast majority of classes.
I don't mean to diminish your efforts, BadBird! That was a clever build, and well argued. It unfortunately does not, however, make the Fighter class good at its job of being a versatile master-at-arms.
I also don't mean to be too negative; I love Pathfinder to bits, even if I think that the Fighter could use a wee bit more love.
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The fighter gets tones of love it just never seems to manifest very well. It's always just MoRE nUMberS or optional systems no-one is in a hurry to learn.
I mean really how many archetypes and alternate class features can one class handle?
The fighter needs a new kind of love or a book that collects together all the bazillion options out there and it shall be called uncrapping the fighter. Like unchaining but different in subtle ways.
The fighter gets tones of love it just never seems to manifest very well. It's always just MoRE nUMberS or optional systems no-one is in a hurry to learn.
I mean really how many archetypes and alternate class features can one class handle?
The fighter needs a new kind of love or a book that collects together all the bazillion options out there and it shall be called uncrapping the fighter. Like unchaining but different in subtle ways.
Yeah, the Fighter's in a similar position to the pre-unchained monk: there are several fixes out there, but they're spread all over the books, often somewhat contradictory, and some of them feel more like clumsy patches than proper organic fixes.
I'd be all for a proper revision.
What you guys have discovered is that it is, with effort, possible to make a build with the Fighter that nothing else can duplicate.
With 'effort'? This stuff is pure fun. There are whole books out there full of feats that make me think 'gee, if only there was a way to combo some of these feat chains'... and then I remember that there's a class with some major built-in always-on combat buffs that happens to grant a massive number of feats - and that's very multiclass-friendly as well. Then the scheming begins.
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The fighter gets tones of love it just never seems to manifest very well. It's always just MoRE nUMberS or optional systems no-one is in a hurry to learn.
I mean really how many archetypes and alternate class features can one class handle?
The fighter needs a new kind of love or a book that collects together all the bazillion options out there and it shall be called uncrapping the fighter. Like unchaining but different in subtle ways.
I'm still pretty convinced that if you changed every archetype fighter has to eat a certain number of bonus feats instead of bravery,weapon training, and armor training (exception: rewrite all the not actually weapon training abilities to count as weapon training for AWT) and made AWT and AAT core rules you don't really even need stamina to make the fighter pretty damn good.
What you guys have discovered is that it is, with effort, possible to make a build with the Fighter that nothing else can duplicate. This is the baseline for the vast majority of classes.
What we have discovered is that the fighter can match optimized builds from most of the other martial classes in their own areas of expertise.
The fighters flexibility allows it to develop in any direction the player chooses.
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This, this, a thousand times this. The Bonus Feats are looked upon as Class Features, but most (with a few exceptions like Combat Stamina and Leadership) are nowhere near equivalent to a class feature.
That is one of the Fighter's largest weaknesses (aside from a weak chassis and requiring more books than the average 5th grader's entire curriculum to build decently). Feats are his class features, but on average they're not as good as class features, and often you have to spend those class features on situational or just plain bad feats to get to the feats that actually are class feature worthy options.
I'm also not a fan of the Fighter's main schtick being "do X feat-intensive thing faster", especially since X feat intensive thing is pretty much never actually an improvement over doing another less feat intensive thing. The issue there is compounded by the fact that the less feat intensive route is generally complimented by greater versatility and flexibility, at least for anyone not a Fighter. Part of the problem is the cost of equivalent things being so wildly different; two-weapon fighting is massively more expensive than two-handed fighting, but is ridiculously weaker whenever a character needs to move more than 5 ft. and not significantly stronger even when doing direct full attack comparisons. That means if your character concept involves two weapon fighting, particularly with an exotic weapon or unusual weapon combination, you're being taxed twice for it, once for having to pay so much more to do it, and again by being forced into the weak Fighter chassis to do it at a reasonable level.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the fighter. It fills its niche perfectly. If you don't like there are tons of other martial classes to choose from that might suit you better.
I find the only reason I'd play a fighter is to tank, they excel in that. With armor masters guide, you can really max out that AC easily and still do enough damage to make you a threat. That's what a fighter does. You can even get good with skills doing this so you can be useful out of combat.
and a barbarian can get crazy high AC and do good damage and are better at skills, and can sunder magic, or pounce, or fly, or...
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I don't think there is anything wrong with the fighter. It fills its niche perfectly. If you don't like there are tons of other martial classes to choose from that might suit you better.
I find the only reason I'd play a fighter is to tank, they excel in that. With armor masters guide, you can really max out that AC easily and still do enough damage to make you a threat. That's what a fighter does. You can even get good with skills doing this so you can be useful out of combat.
I agree, the fighter excels at either being an unhittable tank, or the king of damage dealing. 40+ AC is easy, and 200+ damage per turn is easy as well.
they do it so well, that in our game, the GM has to boost the CR of encounters so high to make them a challenge for the fighter than the rest of the party is not really able to compete.
That's why in our home game, we have banned the straight fighter class.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the fighter. It fills its niche perfectly. If you don't like there are tons of other martial classes to choose from that might suit you better.
I find the only reason I'd play a fighter is to tank, they excel in that. With armor masters guide, you can really max out that AC easily and still do enough damage to make you a threat. That's what a fighter does. You can even get good with skills doing this so you can be useful out of combat.
I agree, the fighter excels at either being an unhittable tank, or the king of damage dealing. 40+ AC is easy, and 200+ damage per turn is easy as well.
they do it so well, that in our game, the GM has to boost the CR of encounters so high to make them a challenge for the fighter than the rest of the party is not really able to compete.
That's why in our home game, we have banned the straight fighter class.
Your GM hasn't heard of Touch Attacks or saving throws?
To your average ghost, most fighters with 40+ AC have something like 15 AC against their attacks. Critters with guns or ray attacks, similarly, barely notice that super-buffed full plate is there.
We're trying to use the Adventure paths, as written, or with additions that fit the story.
Against touch attacks, having 200+ Hit points means you can take a lot of hits from touch attacks. And then when it's the fighters turn, that 200+ damage he'll put out basically takes that "ghost" out of action, since incorporeal doesn't negate damage, just cuts it in half.
And about the only saving throw a fighter is bad at is Will, Not very many monsters have effects that go against a Will save, at least not in the adventure paths.
Flying creatures however are the bane of the melee fighter. But if he was smart and picked up a bow as his second weapon and spent his spare feats there, well.. so it's not 200 damage per round, its just 150....
I feel though is that if a GM makes a point of having a antagonist or obstacle appear over and over again that is specifically the thing you have trouble with, then either you've fundamentally chosen the wrong thing or the GM is just out to get you.
Which is to say, if you know you're going to be up against a lot of guns, and you still want to hit things, play a monk.
If a player wants to play something that's uniquely unsuitable for what you have planned (e.g. a Flesh-to-Stone specialist in a campaign about golems, or a mesmerist archetype that trades away bold stare in a campaign that's got wall to wall mindless things), maybe give them a heads up.
But I would quibble with "Will is the least important save." Generally speaking, I find that it's far and away the most important one. The stuff that failing a will save does is a lot worse than the stuff failing one of the other saves does.
I mean, the classic evil DM thing to do with a failed will save is to have the big dumb melee DPR machine go try kill the rest of the party.
At the very least, if you have a stratospheric AC and tons of HP, you should be taking hits for the party, not handing them out to the party. Thankfully the fighter has Armed Bravery available to get into "good will save" territory, it's just the opportunity cost of "spending an AWT slot" is kind of high.
The more I hear about adventure path design, the more convinced I become I would be wasting my players' time and my own trying to run one for them. If decent AC and damage is all it takes to take one of those apart those things won't stand up to any class played by someone who knows what the class is good for. No wonder PFS got thrown off by something as simple as Crane Wing.
Outside of adventure paths, though, do watch out for incorporeals. They can reach through your armor, and the majority of them outright ignore your HP in favor of just strength/constitution damaging you to death or stacking up negative levels. Something every weapon-user needs to keep in mind, really, incorporeals are almost as bad as swarms for fighty-types.
EH, the thing you have to remember about adventure paths is that to sell, they need to be reasonable for a group of people whove never played the game to sit down, make their first characters ever, and not get simply overwhelmed by challenges put in for optimized or higher point buy characters.
Many tables run them with higher stats, or larger groups than they get tested with, and to run them unadjusted while the party optimizes is going to make them pretty easy, outside of pc's making decisions that screw them not based in game math.
Edit: Although that brings to mind the idea that AP's could probably have a rating system of "difficulty" based on the party its tested with. IE: This AP was tested for a 4 man party with 15 point buy. This AP was tested with a 6 man party and 25 point buy. To throw gms who don't want to alter paths a little guidance on how they should build a party for the modules.