Would a LG character get along better with a CG character or a LE character?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Bandw2 wrote:
Though if asked the LE character would probably lobby for a lowering of the tax if asked to by a powerful ally. Strong connections are very important to them.

Yeah, it's a bit pointless to have a conversation about a clearly complicated LG character and then reduce the LE character to Snidely Whiplash. Maybe they agree that the taxes are a bad idea—Lea might resent that the lord isn't obeying the standard tax laws, or she might want what's best for the city as a long-term investment, and believe that the lord's taxes will damage the city in the long run.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

There would be a lot of minor disagreements with the CG character.

There would be that one time the LE people acted evil, and then there would be smites to the head.

Which would stop once you realized that killing this guy would cause their delicate machinations to unwind in exactly the wrong way and cause much more evil down the road.

LE also stands for "Lesser Evil".


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Wisdom is no longer a required stat for paladins.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

There would be a lot of minor disagreements with the CG character.

There would be that one time the LE people acted evil, and then there would be smites to the head.

LE character's shouldn't be acting unilaterally evil, remember they in general want to stay a part of society and will not do evil actions if it compromises this. That's what makes them LE. They only really act totally evil if they're the one in charge, which PCs tend not to be.


Bandw2 wrote:
LE character's shouldn't be acting unilaterally evil, remember they in general want to stay a part of society and will not do evil actions if it compromises this.

Or not.


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Rub-Eta wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
LE character's shouldn't be acting unilaterally evil, remember they in general want to stay a part of society and will not do evil actions if it compromises this.
Or not.

I don;t feel it's clear what you're trying to say.


We get along with lawful evil and chaotic stupid people nearly every day and live to tell the story.

So i dont see why adventurers couldn't.


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I also think people assign evil alignments to people way way way too easy.


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Imagine this scenario.

You're a paladin.

There's a nearby fiefdom that is ruled by a fierce and unyielding leader. He's strong, proud, but also very capable. He sees the needs of his people met, and his people love him for it. He's been elected by the people in a fair and honest election and chosen to lead for his past deeds and his dedication to the fiefdom. There's zero poverty, but neither is anyone wealthy. However, his stance on crime is draconian. He's absolutely vicious, and as a result of these factors, crime in his fiefdom is nearly unheard of. His military is strong and equally ruthless. They take no prisoners, are merciless to their enemies, but act only in defense of their land.

This leader is LE, and unapologetic about it. Think Vlad the Impaler, who was beloved by his people, but feared and hated by his enemies.

Now, there is a band of freedom fighters from a nearby fiefdom. They hate the ruler because of war crimes he committed against their people (in defense of his own), and as such, want him dethroned. They have no plans to deal with the destabilization that would be left after he is deposed, and they plan to deliberately strip the land of all the lawful authorities and military that keep the fiefdom safe and care for the needs of its people, as the freedom fighters consider those part of the same corrupt system.

The freedom fighters are CG. They wish to see evil dethroned and power and freedom given back to the people.

But the people chose their ruler of their own free will and live in peace and prosperity.

Who do you side with?

I've done this to a paladin player of mine.

And here's the kicker: I wouldn't have punished the player for joining either side as they both have merit.

He sided with the LE ruler. Can you really blame him?


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RDM42 wrote:
I also think people assign evil alignments to people way way way too easy.

I think it's harder to be neutral than to be aligned personally.

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In the case of Paladins, while they may respect LE's dedication to order they would not ally unless absolutely necessary. CG's heart is in the right place, and that matters more than their petty squabbles and disagreements on how best to do the right thing.

Paladins aside, a LG character could swing either way. Lawful types may argue and bucket with each other but they tend to work towards a more orderly society beneficial to all, and while the LE person might attempt to abuse order they're still working within the system. CG however tries to undermine the system, so even if their heart is in the right place they'll cause more harm than good. On the other hand, LG characters more strongly aligned with Good might see the LE's machinations as a corruption of the system which must be stopped to maintain its integrity while the CG character's willingness to work outside the system could be useful for dealing with people like LE who could use the system to protect themselves.


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And then there are people who are only evil on a technicality, like someone who is otherwise pleasant but casts a lot of spells with the evil descriptor.


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Melkiador wrote:
And then there are people who are only evil on a technicality, like someone who is otherwise pleasant but casts a lot of spells with the evil descriptor.

man, imagine all the people who are only good on a technicality.


I think I would prefer if alignment only existed as a subtype. So normal people wouldn't even have one. And you could maybe add a trait to give you one. Would a trait giving you an alignment subtype be overpowered?


Melkiador wrote:
I think I would prefer if alignment only existed as a subtype. So normal people wouldn't even have one. And you could maybe add a trait to give you one. Would a trait giving you an alignment subtype be overpowered?

Given how Holy Smite and other spells work I'd say giving yourself a subtype would be more of a weakness.


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Considering Superman is good pals with the Flash, and his nemesis is Lex Luthor, I'd say LG gets along with CG better than LE.


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I like this discussion but I want to add two things.

1) I tried to avoid talking about paladins because, by code, they would easily work with CG and only work with LE when the "greater good" could benefit from this.

2) There is no PC. There is not a problem in a campaign or with players. This is just a simple... complicated question of ethics and random ideas.


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Cuup wrote:
Considering Superman is good pals with the Flash, and his nemesis is Lex Luthor, I'd say LG gets along with CG better than LE.

I think Lex is more NE in some of his incarnations. Generally in his LE incarnations he's justified in his battling with supes. He truly views superman either as a crutch or as something holding humanity back.

to be clear, he specifically wants to kill superman... of course they're enemies...


Cuup wrote:
Considering Superman is good pals with the Flash, and his nemesis is Lex Luthor, I'd say LG gets along with CG better than LE.

I can't see the Flash being chaotic. He works for the police afterall. And he's pretty respectful to authority.


I also don't see Supe's being LG. He works for good, whether it is within the bounds of the law or not. He is NG, at least in my opinion.


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With Supes it's more about him having to be constantly disciplined because he lives in a world of cardboard.


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SorrySleeping wrote:

I like this discussion but I want to add two things.

1) I tried to avoid talking about paladins because, by code, they would easily work with CG and only work with LE when the "greater good" could benefit from this.

2) There is no PC. There is not a problem in a campaign or with players. This is just a simple... complicated question of ethics and random ideas.

I think it's still very tempting to imagine LG as the goodest good, the wisest good, and to think that good ought to work with good to fight evil. So of course LG would get along better with CG than LE!

But as a great character once said: "We can only see two things about people: what they show us, and what we want to see." Being lawful doesn't free one of ethical/moral blind-spots, nor does it grant any special wisdom. Neither does it free one from internal conflicts of priority, which can easily result in the wrong judgments and choices being made.

We need only watch current world affairs to see LG people excusing and even supporting LE people, against CG and even NG people. All in defense of lawful values.


Bandw2 wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
LE character's shouldn't be acting unilaterally evil, remember they in general want to stay a part of society and will not do evil actions if it compromises this.
Or not.
I don;t feel it's clear what you're trying to say.

Sorry. I'm not disagreeing. I just attempted to widening the spectrum even more.


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I feel like a LG creature would be better friends with a CG creature, but would rather work with a LE creature. Good/Evil axis is leisure, and Lawful/Chaotic axis is business. This feels right to me with any alignment pair.


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Cuup wrote:
I feel like a LG creature would be better friends with a CG creature, but would rather work with a LE creature. Good/Evil axis is leisure, and Lawful/Chaotic axis is business. This feels right to me with any alignment pair.

Speaking from working with a very broad range of people I think this is probably the best way to look at it. One of my best friends is almost comically CG. Great guy, love hanging out with him, but I would NEVER voche to have him work with me as I would spend more time cleaning up after him than I would doing my work. By the same token one of my old bosses was always one step away from being criminally abusive to their employees and yet it was my favorite job (most days) because the place ran with clockwork efficiency.


silverrey wrote:
By the same token one of my old bosses was always one step away from being criminally abusive to their employees and yet it was my favorite job (most days) because the place ran with clockwork efficiency.

Can't beat being almost criminally abused with clockwork efficiency...


BadBird wrote:
silverrey wrote:
By the same token one of my old bosses was always one step away from being criminally abusive to their employees and yet it was my favorite job (most days) because the place ran with clockwork efficiency.
Can't beat being almost criminally abused with clockwork efficiency...

Considering I lost my job because the person who replaced him bankrupted the company by having EVERY employee work overtime if ANY department was running behind I did prefer the former.


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Cuup wrote:
Considering Superman is good pals with the Flash, and his nemesis is Lex Luthor, I'd say LG gets along with CG better than LE.

But what about Batman?

/blatant "Batman Alignment" bait

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Poison Dusk wrote:
I also don't see Supe's being LG. He works for good, whether it is within the bounds of the law or not. He is NG, at least in my opinion.

Supes is almost definitely LG. He isn't Lawful from a "Law is the best way to ensure the survival of the masses and it must be upheld" standpoint, he's Lawful from the "My power would cause immense damage to the world so I must be extremely careful to limit myself around others to prevent myself from becoming what I fight." He holds himself to a strict code of conduct, never fully relaxing his control because his full power isn't something Earth could handle.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Cuup wrote:
Considering Superman is good pals with the Flash, and his nemesis is Lex Luthor, I'd say LG gets along with CG better than LE.

But what about Batman?

/blatant "Batman Alignment" bait

LN


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Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Which one is the other PC?

The one with the glow.


Poison Dusk wrote:
I also don't see Supe's being LG. He works for good, whether it is within the bounds of the law or not. He is NG, at least in my opinion.

Lex Luthor isn't Lawful. He's simply an example of a Chaotic Evil who's neither an idiot, nor insane like the Joker.


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Robin Hood is chaotic good... he stole money from the corrupt prince and nobles because people were starving in Sherwood Forest. How does a paladin feel about that?

Darth Vader is lawful evil... he kills his coworkers and a bunch of children learning the force because his liege told him it's the right thing to do. How does a Paladin feel about that?


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Robin Hood was lawful good: he supported the legitimate king against the usurper John.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Poison Dusk wrote:
I also don't see Supe's being LG. He works for good, whether it is within the bounds of the law or not. He is NG, at least in my opinion.
Lex Luthor isn't Lawful. He's simply an example of a Chaotic Evil who's neither an idiot, nor insane like the Joker.

There's a few different versions of Lex, but most of them are somewhat lawful in alignment. There's a reason he usually leads the legion of bad guys. And there's a reason he can successfully manage a large company. Almost everything he does is carefully planned.


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Melkiador wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Poison Dusk wrote:
I also don't see Supe's being LG. He works for good, whether it is within the bounds of the law or not. He is NG, at least in my opinion.
Lex Luthor isn't Lawful. He's simply an example of a Chaotic Evil who's neither an idiot, nor insane like the Joker.
There's a few different versions of Lex, but most of them are somewhat lawful in alignment. There's a reason he usually leads the legion of bad guys. And there's a reason he can successfully manage a large company. Almost everything he does is carefully planned.

Planning doesn't make you Lawful any more than having an impulse makes you chaotic.

Lex is chaotic because everything is all about HIM. He's angry at Superman because he feels that Superman makes HIM insignificant, or because he blames Superboy for destroying his lab and making his hair fall out. He ascribes motivation of making HIM feel smaller.

Luthor has no loyalty to any organisation, or any principles that he acknowledges as larger than him alone. His motivations are entirely ego driven. And he breaks laws, rules, and allegiances when it's no longer more profitable not to.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Lex is chaotic because everything is all about HIM. He's angry at Superman because he feels that Superman makes HIMa insignificant, or because he blames Superboy for destroying his lab and making his hair fall out. He ascribes motivation of making HIM feel smaller.

All of that can be attributed to being evil without any regard for law and chaos. And there is no real loyalty among evil. Evil will always turn against their allies If it suits them

I would say that making plans inside of plans is pretty lawful. Chaotic characters prefer to fly by the seat of their pants.

Quote:
Planning doesn't make you Lawful any more than having an impulse makes you chaotic.

It's not about having a plan or an impulse. It's about that being the way you live your life. Having a life based on planning is lawful. Having a life based on impulses is chaotic.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Poison Dusk wrote:
I also don't see Supe's being LG. He works for good, whether it is within the bounds of the law or not. He is NG, at least in my opinion.
Lex Luthor isn't Lawful. He's simply an example of a Chaotic Evil who's neither an idiot, nor insane like the Joker.
There's a few different versions of Lex, but most of them are somewhat lawful in alignment. There's a reason he usually leads the legion of bad guys. And there's a reason he can successfully manage a large company. Almost everything he does is carefully planned.

Planning doesn't make you Lawful any more than having an impulse makes you chaotic.

Lex is chaotic because everything is all about HIM. He's angry at Superman because he feels that Superman makes HIM insignificant, or because he blames Superboy for destroying his lab and making his hair fall out. He ascribes motivation of making HIM feel smaller.

Luthor has no loyalty to any organisation, or any principles that he acknowledges as larger than him alone. His motivations are entirely ego driven. And he breaks laws, rules, and allegiances when it's no longer more profitable not to.

chaos wrote:
Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

I'm not seeing it. Chaotic evil on a good day are violent revolutionaries, this doesn't really feel like Lex. He's usually just straight Evil I'd imagine in the times where he's all ego-y, because he simply has no compassion for anything. Freedoms and laws are not his conscern. Hence NE.


*Runs in*

BATMAN IS CHAOTIC EVIL

*Runs out*


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actually I'm pretty sure he's lawful good, just like my fanfics of lex luthor!


I mean, "evil" and "good" are sort of abstractions. I'd say Batman is Chaotic Neutral. Just like me!


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Per the old Complete Scoundrel:
Batman was LG
Spiderman was NG
007 was LN
And... That is all I can remember without digging out the book again


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Hasn't Batman been every alignment at this point?


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I felt like mentioning Batman is every alignment depending on his mood but I didn't want to take the batman alignment bait.


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What alignment is he?

He's Batman.

Liberty's Edge

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I think people are holding an overly simplistic view of Alignment here.

For example, was Robin Hood CG or LG? It sorta depends on why he was doing what he was doing. If he was doing it purely to support the rightful King, and would never have risen against his lawful ruler, he's probably LG. But that's hardly the typical portrayal of Robin Hood, IMO.

Prince John's lack of legitimacy as a ruler is why he stays loyal to the King, not why he starts being Robin Hood and robbing from tax collectors and the rich. He'd have done that part against any unjust ruler regardless of legitimacy...and that's much more CG (or at least NG). He remains loyal to the King because the King is Good, not because he's the King.

Likewise, working with the police doesn't make you Lawful. John McClane and pretty much every 'maverick cop' from an action movie are pretty textbook CG, for example.

So, on the original question:

I think it depends on what you mean by 'get along'.

A LG person and a LE person will likely get along better on a purely superficial level, but IMO will be much less likely to get along if they actually start discussing their views on life and will be much less likely to work together than a LG person and a CG person, who will get along much worse on a superficial level, but do better on a deeper level.

Of course, a person much more Lawful than Good might get along with LE people better on every level, but if so, IMO, they're running pretty close to going LN right there.

And of course all that assumes relatively 'typical' scales in both Good and Evil. When you start getting into priests of Evil deities and Paladins and the like, the differences in LG and LE are suddenly much more stark, and all the superficial 'getting along' stuff just goes to making them see each other as worthy enemies.


At least you can trust the LE villain to backstab at the end.
You have no idea what consequences the idiotic plans of the CG hero might cause in the end.

Liberty's Edge

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Envall wrote:

At least you can trust the LE villain to backstab at the end.

You have no idea what consequences the idiotic plans of the CG hero might cause in the end.

Uh...Lawful Alignment and intelligence or ability to plan things are not actually the same thing. In fact, they have nothing to do with each other.


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Envall wrote:

At least you can trust the LE villain to backstab at the end.

You have no idea what consequences the idiotic plans of the CG hero might cause in the end.

you don't know if she's going to shank you in your sleep or rub soup in your hair.


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Envall wrote:

At least you can trust the LE villain to backstab at the end.

You have no idea what consequences the idiotic plans of the CG hero might cause in the end.

I seem to remember hearing something roughly to that effect before.

Didn't the evil guy who said that end up fatally shooting the other guy in the heart?

I can almost guarantee that if anyone says something like "I am going to backstab you", the words they are saying are setting you up to be backstabbed, and you probably shouldn't listen.

EDIT: Two people I can remember, actually. The second held a knife to the neck of the first before some guards threw him in prison. The backstabee got his head chopped off.

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