Sneak Attack Stacking... 13d6?

[ZZTRaider]

An Inquisitor with the Sanctified Slayer gets a total of 6d6 of sneak attack by level 19.

Sanctified Slayer stacks with the Green Faith Marshal archetype to take the Crocodile domain, which grants a total of 3d6 sneak attack that explicitly stacks with other sources.

Taking the Rogue variant multiclass grants a total of 4d6 sneak attack.

Do all of these sources stack completely? Do you actually end up with 13d6 sneak attack? (Or in the case of a Vivisectionist Alchemist with VMC Rogue, 14d6?)

[Kemuri Kunoichi]

Looks that way to me.

[Zedorland]

Conventionally, sneak attack from multiple sources simply adds to your effective rogue level, rather than adding +d6 as it did in 3.5.

However, as none of these options seems to affect your effective rogue level, its seems your in the clear.

Maybe there is an faq or Errata i don't know of though.

[Ryzoken]

Zedorland wrote:

Conventionally, sneak attack from multiple sources simply adds to your effective rogue level, rather than adding +d6 as it did in 3.5.

Citation, please?

[Saethori]

Yeah, that's new to me too.
All I've seen is that Sneak Attack says it stacks with other sources of Sneak Attack. This is the very first time I've ever seen the phrase "effective rogue level" used for anything but talents.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

It is definitely RAW!

However, if you ask Paizo, I tend to believe that they will never allow it.

I suspect that Paizo designers are worried of sneak attack getting out of hand, because of how they limited the feat "accomplished sneak attacker"

[Lanitril]

Ryzoken wrote:

Zedorland wrote:

Conventionally, sneak attack from multiple sources simply adds to your effective rogue level, rather than adding +d6 as it did in 3.5.

Citation, please?

"This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter." -Rogue

"This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every 2 rogue levels thereafter." -UC Rogue

At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on). -Vivisectionist

A lot of Sneak Attack sources actually progress at a different rate though, so math-wise, it's easier for them to just stack than try to determine how many Sandman, Slayer, Cult Leader, Sanctified Slayer, Nature Fang, Snakebite Striker, Strangler, Monk of the Mantis, and Greensting Slayer levels count as a Rogue level.

Actually, I think only Rogue, it's subclasses, it's archetypes, and Vivisectionist gain Sneak Attack at level 1 and at that rate. Some of those archetypes get sneak later on, but at the same rate. Or just a different rate in general. And then PRCs.

Maybe Vivi could be PFS legal if they made it progress differently. Nerf it and then call it PFS safe. Or nerf it only for PFS and call it legal. Sorry for the small musing.

Oh. But yeah. Technically those work. But it's probably part of why Paizo didn't originally want us multiclassing with hybrid classes. Same with VMCing into a class you're already taking. In this case, Sanctified Slayer isn't an actual Hybrid Class, but it's basically a Hybrid of Slayer and Inquisitor. Slayer being a Hybrid including Rogue in it. If I were you, I'd probably rule that intent isn't for a player to be able to gain more sneak attack than a rogue and probably cap it at 10. 11 with Accomplished Sneak Attacker. Or just say they can't take Rogue VMC at all. But I wouldn't do that. Capping it seems easier.

[SheepishEidolon]

I think they really want to restrict sneak attack, so you can't get more dice than a pure rogue of same level.

However, the given combination has less balance issues than at first glance. Sanctified Slayer gets the first 1d6 on level 4. Green Faith Marshall needs till level 6. VMC rogue kicks in at level 7. Afterwards you get a combination of a 1/3, 1/6 and 1/4 progression, resulting in an erratic overall progression:

1 to 3: no sneak attack at all
4 to 5: 1d6
6: 2d6
7: 4d6, suddenly en par with a pure rogue
8 to 9: still 4d6, dropping off slightly
10: 5d6
11: 6d6, caught up again
12: 7d6, surpassing pure rogue
13: 8d6
14 to 15: 9d6
16 to 17: 10d6
18: 11d6
19 to 20: jump to 13d6

So as a GM, I wouldn't see an issue here. The player sacrifices a lot, making his PC a specialist, with the benefits and drawbacks that come from it...

[CBDunkerson]

ZZTRaider wrote:

An Inquisitor with the Sanctified Slayer gets a total of 6d6 of sneak attack by level 19.

Sanctified Slayer stacks with the Green Faith Marshal archetype to take the Crocodile domain, which grants a total of 3d6 sneak attack that explicitly stacks with other sources.

Taking the Rogue variant multiclass grants a total of 4d6 sneak attack.

Do all of these sources stack completely? Do you actually end up with 13d6 sneak attack?

Do you end up with 13d6 sneak attack?

Sure... at 35th level.

[Ryzoken]

Lanitril wrote:

"This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter." -Rogue

"This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every 2 rogue levels thereafter." -UC Rogue

At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on). -Vivisectionist

Vivisectionist is a specific exception to the general way that sneak attack stacks.

If I build a Snakebite Striker Brawler 1 Rogue 1, my Sneak Attack is +2d6. The +1d6 gained from the Brawler level stacks with the +1d6 gained from the Rogue level, yielding +2d6. If I later pick up a level of, say, Assassin, my Sneak Attack would increase to +3d6. Vivisectionist is literally the only class in the game (to my knowledge) with the effective rogue level clause.

[Rysky]

Oh oh oh! Don't forget the +3d6 from Shax and Tanagaar's Deity Boons!

[Rub-Eta]

CBDunkerson wrote:

Do you end up with 13d6 sneak attack?

Sure... at 35th level.

Hm?

[CBDunkerson]

Rub-Eta wrote:

CBDunkerson wrote:

Do you end up with 13d6 sneak attack?

Sure... at 35th level.

Hm?

Sanctified Slayer 19 / Green Faith Marshall 16 = 35th level

[Snowblind]

CBDunkerson wrote:

Rub-Eta wrote:

CBDunkerson wrote:

Do you end up with 13d6 sneak attack?

Sure... at 35th level.

Hm?

Sanctified Slayer 19 / Green Faith Marshall 16 = 35th level

???

They are both Inquisitor Archetypes. One inquisitor can have 2 sources of sneak attack (3 with VMC rogue).

[Rub-Eta]

CBDunkerson wrote:

Rub-Eta wrote:

CBDunkerson wrote:

Do you end up with 13d6 sneak attack?

Sure... at 35th level.

Hm?

Sanctified Slayer 19 / Green Faith Marshall 16 = 35th level

But they stack, don't they?

[Rysky]

CBDunkerson wrote:

Rub-Eta wrote:

CBDunkerson wrote:

Do you end up with 13d6 sneak attack?

Sure... at 35th level.

Hm?

Sanctified Slayer 19 / Green Faith Marshall 16 = 35th level

Sanctified Slayer and Green Faith Marshal are both Archetypes for the Inquisitor that stack.

Yeah I keep thinking Sanctified Slayer is a Slayer archetype every time I see it at first -_-

EDIT: WOW, double ninjaed by only a few seconds XD

[CBDunkerson]

Rysky wrote:

Sanctified Slayer and Green Faith Marshal are both Archetypes for the Inquisitor that stack.

Yeah I keep thinking Sanctified Slayer is a Slayer archetype every time I see it at first -_-

Ah. Yep, I was thinking it was a Slayer archetype.

In that case, RAW it should work. There has been some evidence that they want to cap sneak attack dice at 10d6, but no explanation how that would work with situations like this... or just taking 1 level dips in every class/archetype which has 1d6 sneak attack at 1st level.

[Ellioti]

you don't even have to take the Green Faith Marshal archetype necessarily. A nature focused inquisitor could take animal and terrain domains before already.

Quote:

Other nature-themed classes with access to domains may select an animal or terrain domain in place of a regular domain.

I see no problem with the Sneak attack stacking. 13d6 at lvl 20 is the opposite of game breaking. At level 1-5 is where sneak attack shines. That's where the build lacks SA.

The Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat adds another die.
And as mentioned before, Celestial Obedience (Tanagaar) will add 3d6 at lvl 20 and +2 per die. You can add more, if you were a Samsaran and snatched the Sense Vitals spell from the Ranger spell list. That's 22d6 at lvl 20 :D. 44d6 +132 if you somehow managed to fit Sap Adept and Sap Master in there.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Ryzoken wrote:

If I build a Snakebite Striker Brawler 1 Rogue 1, my Sneak Attack is +2d6. The +1d6 gained from the Brawler level stacks with the +1d6 gained from the Rogue level, yielding +2d6.

Not to mention if that Rogue level has the Knife Master archetype it gives you 2d8 SA at 2nd level.

If you really want to, you can get 4d8 SA at 5th level.

3 levels of Slayer - taking Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 3rd.

Then the above Rogue 1 (Knife Master) / Snakebite Striker 1.

4d8 SA at level 5.

Interesting? Yes. Kinda cool? Yes. OP? Not really.

[Saldiven]

Just to throw this out there, the Inquisitor gets bonus Teamwork Feats and has the Solo Tactics class ability. So, he/she could get an addition d6 of Sneak Attack from the Precision Strike Feat.

[Vrischika111]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

...

If you really want to, you can get 4d8 SA at 5th level.

3 levels of Slayer - taking Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 3rd.

Then the above Rogue 1 (Knife Master) / Snakebite Striker 1.

4d8 SA at level 5.

Interesting? Yes. Kinda cool? Yes. OP? Not really.

RAW ? No.

the feat mentions : +1D6 sneak , you cannot have more dice than 1/2 your level (rounded up)

so your feat become useless as soon as you reach your 3rd sneak die

some other Prestige classe could ramp up the dice though :
grey gardener 1 : +1d6 (req combat reflexes, caster divine 2) : fits with inquisitor
inner sea pirate 1 : +1d6
Master spy : +1D6 (deceitful, iron will)
sleepless detective : +1D6 (alertness)

[DethBySquirl]

Honestly, this could be an interestingly thematic combination. I'd totally love to see, say, a Scaleheart Skinwalker Inquisitor. The racial Wisdom penalty would hurt, but the Strength and Con bonuses would be great, and access to a bite attack would be useful.

The Death Roll ability for the Crocodile domain has me thinking of a grapple build. The fact the domain gives you a familiar could also be useful if you make him a Mauler to help get the flank for sneak attacks.

[Cory Stafford 29]

So an sanctified slayer/green faith marshal inquisitor with the precise strike teamwork and accomplished sneak attack feats is the best sneak attack build?

[CBDunkerson]

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

So an sanctified slayer/green faith marshal inquisitor with the precise strike teamwork and accomplished sneak attack feats is the best sneak attack build?

"Best"? Too subjective to answer.

'Most sneak attack dice'? No, throwing in a one level dip of every class (including archetypes and prestige classes) which gets sneak attack at 1st level can get you a higher total;

Rogue / UnRogue / Ninja (and various archetypes)
Eldritch Poisoner Alchemist
Snakebite Striker Brawler
Greensting Slayer Magus
Assassin
Gray Gardener
Inner Sea Pirate
Master Spy
Pathfinder Field Agent
Red Mantis Assassin
Sleepless Detective

The Mantis Blade and Armor of the Shadow Lord also both add +1d6 to sneak attack.

With other options (e.g. obedience, Sense Vitals, VMC) 30d6 at 20th level should be possible.

[Ryzoken]

CBDunkerson wrote:

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

So an sanctified slayer/green faith marshal inquisitor with the precise strike teamwork and accomplished sneak attack feats is the best sneak attack build?

"Best"? Too subjective to answer.

'Most sneak attack dice'? No, throwing in a one level dip of every class (including archetypes and prestige classes) which gets sneak attack at 1st level can get you a higher total;

Rogue / UnRogue / Ninja (and various archetypes)
Eldritch Poisoner Alchemist
Snakebite Striker Brawler
Greensting Slayer Magus
Assassin
Gray Gardener
Inner Sea Pirate
Master Spy
Pathfinder Field Agent
Red Mantis Assassin
Sleepless Detective

The Mantis Blade and Armor of the Shadow Lord also both add +1d6 to sneak attack.

With other options (e.g. obedience, Sense Vitals, VMC) 30d6 at 20th level should be possible.

If that all is compatible with Sap Adept/Master, we might actually have a decent thing going... Maybe. Sort of.

[Cory Stafford 29]

How about a pfs legal build that doesn't tank it's bab, taking one level of all those 3/4 bab classes? I am also pretty sure that you cannot take levels of both rogue and unchained rogue.

[CBDunkerson]

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

I am also pretty sure that you cannot take levels of both rogue and unchained rogue.

You can't. Nor stack either with Ninja and/or archetypes of those same classes. That's why I put all those options together on one line separate from the various other classes which WOULD stack.

As to PFS and/or maintaining BAB... that's back to 'best'. As I said, that list was just for 'most sneak attack dice'.

[Cory Stafford 29]

Ok. Well let's try this experiment. A pfs legal build with the most sneak attack dice at 11th level with a bab of no less than 7.

[Cavall]

May want to read accomplished sneak attacker again...

"Your number of sneak attack dice cannot exceed half your character level (rounded up)."

A useless feat the moment you pass (or equal really) a rogues progression.

[Cory Stafford 29]

Cavall wrote:

May want to read accomplished sneak attacker again...

"Your number of sneak attack dice cannot exceed half your character level (rounded up)."

A useless feat the moment you pass (or equal really) a rogues progression.

Yeah that's true. It's only good for catching up to a rogue's progression.

[Cavall]

Which doesn't help here because the moment you tie even, it's wasted.

Great for delayed attackers though, like Sandman Bard or Eldritch Poisoner alchemist.

[Cory Stafford 29]

Yeah, but it does no good for getting as much sneak attack as possible.

[Cory Stafford 29]

Can green faith marshall even get the crocodile domain? I know hero lab isn't perfect, but it doesn't give that as a domain option for that archetype. I guess you can't beat a level of snakebite striker plus x levels of rogue/ninja for getting max sneak attack without tanking bab.

[Squiggit]

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

Can green faith marshall even get the crocodile domain?

Literally the first line of the archetype is

Quote:

The Green Faith marshal gains one domain selected from the animal and terrain domains.

I don't know how you can interpret it any other way.

[CBDunkerson]

Squiggit wrote:

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

Can green faith marshall even get the crocodile domain?

Literally the first line of the archetype is

Quote:

The Green Faith marshal gains one domain selected from the animal and terrain domains.

I don't know how you can interpret it any other way.

Hmmm... there is an actual "Animal" domain. Hero Lab may have thought the sentence was referring to that single domain plus the various 'terrain' domains.

[Cory Stafford 29]

Probably so.

[Imbicatus]

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

Can green faith marshall even get the crocodile domain? I know hero lab isn't perfect, but it doesn't give that as a domain option for that archetype. I guess you can't beat a level of snakebite striker plus x levels of rogue/ninja for getting max sneak attack without tanking bab.

Crocodile domain is in a separate book from the other animal and terrain domains, if you don't have the data pack for faiths and philosophies, it won't show up.

[Cory Stafford 29]

Imbicatus wrote:

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

Can green faith marshall even get the crocodile domain? I know hero lab isn't perfect, but it doesn't give that as a domain option for that archetype. I guess you can't beat a level of snakebite striker plus x levels of rogue/ninja for getting max sneak attack without tanking bab.

Crocodile domain is in a separate book from the other animal and terrain domains, if you don't have the data pack for faiths and philosophies, it won't show up.

I have that pack. It shows up as an option if I make a druid, but not as a green faith marshal.

[skizzerz]

Sounds like a bug with Hero Lab, you should report it. Seems that crocodile isn't being correctly marked as an animal domain.

[ohako]

stack that sneak attack all you want. This is why the feat Merciless Butchery was switched from a swift action to a standard action. Now it's more like 'take-your-time butchery'.

[Cory Stafford 29]

Well, if he was being sarcastic, I didn't pick up on it. Lol. I did report the bug.

[CBDunkerson]

No need for 'stealth errata' to prevent the 13d6 in the OP. That can be done just by enforcing the suggestion in Unchained not to allow both VMC and regular multi-classing on the same character.

That said, there are still plenty of ways to get more than [Level / 2] d6 sneak attack. The various one level dips being the most obvious... and if you use the fractional advancement option then it doesn't hurt BAB much.

[Rysky]

(Pst! CDB, the OP wasn't using multiclassing, just VMC, in order to get the 13d6)

[Snowblind]

CBDunkerson wrote:

No need for 'stealth errata' to prevent the 13d6 in the OP. That can be done just by enforcing the suggestion in Unchained not to allow both VMC and regular multi-classing on the same character.

...

???????

We are talking about a single classed character with VMC. Last time I checked, VMC doesn't have any special interactions with or considerations for Archetypes.

EDIT: Half-Succubus Witch Ninjas, on the other hand...

[CBDunkerson]

Gah! Right, still thinking it was two different classes.