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I am wanting to make a secondary character to bring along for when my main character ends up overlapping too much with other players who show up for games.
I am wanting to build a character that is pretty much welcome in any group...I was thinking some sort of team buffer, enemy de-buffer, maybe toss some heals in there. Preferably something that won't just die the second something attacks it.
I was thinking maybe bard or oracle? I prefer the ability to choose spells on the fly instead of having to pre-choose every morning.
I am open to anything PFS legal...especially if it is something I can work an interesting and fun to play concept around. It does not have to be ultra-optimized...I am open to playing a sub-optimal race/class combo as long as it does not utterly break the build.
Post your favorite team player builds here
Bard or Skald is generally the best character to fill in at most tables. If you go Skald, you may want to go Urban Skald since more people will take that version of Raging Song.
The Skald is better in battle and gets Spell Kenning.
Most any group would also welcome a cleric with buff spells, although it isn't quite as generally useful. Too few of skill ranks per level to help with that portion of the game.
Investigator makes the best skill monkey, especially for knowledge skills. Give them Infusion as their first investigator talent and they can buff the party in other ways as well.
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Not a big fan of the flavor of the bard-barian..er Skald.
I am leaning towards just a vanilla, no archetype bard. The arcane spells, performance buffs, and heavy skill set seems like the best overall combination to me.
However...I have not played a bard since AD&D 2nd edition...Is there a particular set of feats that goes best with a buffer/de-buffer?
I am thinking Gnome for the race, they Fey background adds good flavor to the character, the Cha bonus is nice, +1 rounds/level performance favored class bonus sounds nice, bonus spell like abilities, swap out obsessive for acedemician, keen sensees, low light vision, small size, etc...sounds like a great bard package.
If someone has a suggested stat and feat layout, I would love to see it.
Thanks :)
He took them as Feats and he is using the Duetist Archetype to gain his Familiar.
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Evangelist Cleric.
9th level caster, Buffs without needing to prepare them, and can heal outside of combat or in combat *if* needed. Can fix conditions with the prepared spell list.
You could go full caster, Summoner type, Reach based. There are many ways to build one that you can design one for any group.
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Agree with Fruian. You can make an archer out of an evangelist cleric if you wanted to. Or a save or suck caster, using stuff like burst of radiance, chains of light, hallucinogenic smoke...
You bring bard buffs with full 9th level divine casting.
For rogue types, I've always felt investigator was a strong choice, they even get to pick up trapspotter with investigator talents. Can cover melee, knowledge skills amd traps. Actually ill confess an investigator can beat a wizard in knowledge checks, because he has 6 skills/lv compared to a wizard's 2, even though at end game, the wizard probably has 4 more points of int then an investigator.
Since you expressed interest in the bard idea, let's start with that.
Gnome can make a good bard, between the bonus to Charisma (casting stat and lots of skills based on it) and Con (always useful). Since you went Gnome I'm going to assume for the moment that you aren't looking to go into melee combat.
Do you intend to use a bow? If so, you will want to pick up at least Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot in order to be able to hit. If not, you will want to think about what you do starting on the second round of each combat -- first round should almost always be start a performance.
You should probably pick out your first and second Versatile Performances. The first one you get at second level -- not a problem there since PFS allows a level one rebuild. The second one is more problematic since you will want to pick skills that you aren't making a heavy investment in before that point.
Versatile Performance is the way that the Bard (and Skald for that matter) get lots of social skills. It is really great with Sense Motive since that skill is Wisdom based so putting points directly in the skill isn't as effective as putting them in via Versatile Performance.
As for spells, that is sort of a play style thing. I'm fond of both Grease and Timely Inspiration for their ability to turn a fight.
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I am liking the idea of a general buff/de-buff caster bard. Lots of performance, lots of buff spells like haste, invisibility, saving finale, blur, a few de-buffs like grease, glitterdust, etc.
As a gnome, with low Str...melee would not really be an option, so maybe a bow/crossbow/sling...and a lot of running to hide behind the tank. Probably mount the flag (Flagbearer) to a spear if allowed, just in case.
Stat-wise I was thinking more spread out instead of hyper specialized...maybe something like: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 16.
That should get me access to all the spells I need (DCs wont be fantastic, but I will focus more on spells that don't have DCs). Lots of skills, languages, etc. A little bit of AC/HP and +1 save bonus on everything but will.
Feats, Flagbearer, Lingering Performance, Discordant Voice, open to other suggestions.
Traits, Reactionary is pretty much a given for any character...who doesn't want to go first. Maybe go Grand Lodge faction and take Observant for the second? More perception is always helpful.
Performance: Either Oratory or Sing as primary...maybe dance in case we need to be quiet? I'll need a hand for flag bearing...so that rules out all the instruments I can think of.
Thoughts?
How about an archaeologist with the fortune's favored trait?
You get to be a team buffer with bard magic
You get to be the team's rogue, as you get bonuses to perception as well as receiving trapfinding
While you don't get versatile performance, you do get luck. +2 to all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls for a number of rounds per day equal to 4+Cha modifier. So if you are Cha 18, at lvl 1 you get this for 9 rounds a day. Swift action to turn on, free action to end. So you'll get these bonuses pretty much whenever you need them.
Add in rogue talents...
...and you become an amazing generalist. As a bard, your knowledge skills will always be helpful to the party, as will be your performances. You also act as the party rogue (something few tables have), and with bardic magic you can buff/debuff.
And as a final note, your luck will make you halfway decent in combat as well. +2 to hit and +2 damage more than make up for the slow BaB of the bard. Though you can't do that while doing a performance...so it's either sing or fight.
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And as a final note, your luck will make you halfway decent in combat as well. +2 to hit and +2 damage more than make up for the slow BaB of the bard. Though you can't do that while doing a performance...so it's either sing or fight.
Huh? When did that happen?
Last time I checked Starting a Performance is a Standard Action...But AFTER that it is a Free action to keep up your Performance. THus you can Start attacking the Following round. Or if using reach you can Draw AoO the first round.
The OP wants Flagbearer...Get a Longspear and put that flag on it. Free action remove a hand and Cast...then put your hands back on your spear.
Feats, Flagbearer, Lingering Performance, Discordant Voice, open to other suggestions.
Those are typically the Basic feats for a Bard these days...All 3 work on a Evangelist Cleric as well you just need more Cha for Flagbearer than the typical evangelist starts with but as a Gnome a 13 Cha Pre-racial and you can have it out the gate.
I still stand by the 17 Int on a bard to be too much INT. Throw more points in CHA if you want to be a caster bard. As a bard you have plenty of skills and Versatile Performance really sets you up nicely. I think anything over a 12 INT is wasted on a Bard.
EDIT:
bards are so-so melee. yes, the bonus to hit and damage can be decent, but :
1. little room for STR or DEX of the 20's.
2. low FORT save and low AC and d8 hp will get you killed really fast.
yes you can blink etc, but it takes time... so it's the same issue a cleric has. they CAN melee, but by the time they finish buffing combat is over.
For "Melee or Reach" Bards I always Recommend Dragon Disciple as the +4 Str helps tremendously. The 4 level dip can be recovered with a Banner of the Ancient Kings so your Bardic Performance Remains at the same pace as a normal Bard. Lets not forget the other bonuses DD brings: Natural Armor, D12 HD, Feat. All very welcome to the "Melee" bard.
bards are so-so melee. yes, the bonus to hit and damage can be decent, but :
1. little room for STR or DEX of the 20's.
2. low FORT save and low AC and d8 hp will get you killed really fast.
This is basically why the skald can be useful. And if you are worried about your skald being useless to casters, then just go with the spell warrior or urban skald archetypes.
I have to agree with others that the 17 Int is too high for the payback on a bard.
Since you are going Flagbearer, you will most likely want to carry a longspear. That means you probably need more than an 8 strength. Take some of those points from Int and move them to Strength and Constitution.
You didn't say which versatile performances you were going for.
Other than that, sounds like you have a workable concept.
Have fun!
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Ok...so drop the int. For which stat? Dex? Str? Con? Spread it around?
Dropping to say 14 Int gives me 8 points to play with...I could bump up to 16 Dex...or I could spread it around. 12, 12, 12, 14, 10, 17?
How would you lay out 20 stat points for a gnome bard?
Reactions like that are precisely why I am here asking for help instead of just showing up to a game with a character.
A Gnomish Bard with decent DEX could put Slashing Grace to pretty good use. Mithral medium armor, buckler, size bonus to AC and good dexterity is pretty sturdy defense, and size bonus to attack, Heroism, Inspire Courage, Arcane Strike and Piranha Strike add up to a pretty decent level of damage, particularly with some Deliquescent Gloves. Amateur Swashbuckler is a perfect fit for a fighting Bard and can do some pretty interesting things, like using Dodging Panache and using the arguably OP Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf item. Somehow I always picture a sickle-and-buckler Gnome...
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Attacking with your spear and flagbearer works fine so long as you don'''t completely dump strength. I don't mind the idea of an int 14 bard. It gives you slightly more skills and a boost in languages. I usually start out with a 17 in the caster stat, because i can get it to 20 by level 4 between the headband and that attribute stat increase.
If you decide to go flagbearer, bumping your dex to 16 may not help you except for armor class and acrobatics. Remember that in combat you can aid another even if you yourself have trouble hitting.
Hmm
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Most welcomed character for me? Literally anyone who is friendly, there to have a good time, and keeps teamwork in mind with every action they take.
Also, Bards rock... I love playing as a bard. When I walk up to a table with my Skald I always announce his playstyle as 'My job is to make all of you guys look twice as awesome!'
But to be honest, a player who is actively trying to be a team player with any character tends be even more effective than a 'teamwork oriented build' that doesn't pay attention to the party dynamic.
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Hard to get more team-player-y than a Life Shaman with Fortune Hex and Chant.
Get a wand-wielding Improved Familiar with a high Con, get a Wand of Shield Other, and turn yourself and your Fast Healing familiar into a communal HP pool for your party. Give them re-rolls, cast party buff spells and battlefield shaping spells, and make everyone love you.
I would probably do something like:
Str 12, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16
If you wanted an 18 Charisma, you could instead do:
Str 11, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18
It really depends on how much you want to mess with encumbrance.
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As a gnome, small size means most of my gear weighs half as much...so even with a low Str encumbrance is not as big a deal. Plus throw on a masterwork backpack for +1 str to figure carry weight helps a lot until the magic items start coming along.
If I start with a 13 Int, then bump it to 14 with my first stat boost at level 4, do I get retroactive skill ranks for levels 1-3, or does it just start from level 4 onward? I kind of like the 12, 12, 16, 13, 10, 16 spread.
As a gnome, small size means most of my gear weighs half as much...so even with a low Str encumbrance is not as big a deal. Plus throw on a masterwork backpack for +1 str to figure carry weight helps a lot until the magic items start coming along.
If I start with a 13 Int, then bump it to 14 with my first stat boost at level 4, do I get retroactive skill ranks for levels 1-3, or does it just start from level 4 onward? I kind of like the 12, 12, 16, 13, 10, 16 spread.
My own experience is that even for size small, strength 11 with armor can be a pain for encumbrance. Some things don't change with size and my patience for shuffling equipment is limited.
Yes, the Int bump would be retroactive. You would even get another starting language.
As a gnome, small size means most of my gear weighs half as much...so even with a low Str encumbrance is not as big a deal. Plus throw on a masterwork backpack for +1 str to figure carry weight helps a lot until the magic items start coming along.
If I start with a 13 Int, then bump it to 14 with my first stat boost at level 4, do I get retroactive skill ranks for levels 1-3, or does it just start from level 4 onward? I kind of like the 12, 12, 16, 13, 10, 16 spread.
My own experience is that even for size small, strength 11 with armor can be a pain for encumbrance. Some things don't change with size and my patience for shuffling equipment is limited.
Yes, the Int bump would be retroactive. You would even get another starting language.
Muleback Cords are cheap enough that doubling the price to make them slotless is a viable choice.
It's a go-to for my Small characters. I hate worrying about the encumbrance rules.
As a gnome, small size means most of my gear weighs half as much...so even with a low Str encumbrance is not as big a deal. Plus throw on a masterwork backpack for +1 str to figure carry weight helps a lot until the magic items start coming along.
If I start with a 13 Int, then bump it to 14 with my first stat boost at level 4, do I get retroactive skill ranks for levels 1-3, or does it just start from level 4 onward? I kind of like the 12, 12, 16, 13, 10, 16 spread.
My own experience is that even for size small, strength 11 with armor can be a pain for encumbrance. Some things don't change with size and my patience for shuffling equipment is limited.
Yes, the Int bump would be retroactive. You would even get another starting language.
Muleback Cords are cheap enough that doubling the price to make them slotless is a viable choice.
It's a go-to for my Small characters. I hate worrying about the encumbrance rules.
Muleback cords are standard equipment for all my characters. They never warn you about the risk of STR dumping enough, although it is hilarious my sorcerer can carry as much as the barbarian.
Guess we have different measures then, plaidwandering.
Con 16 on a gnome only costs 5 points. I don't consider that excessive given the bonus to Fort saves and additional hit points.
Getting a small Int bonus on a Bard can help with the knowledge checks. Making an important knowledge check can make a huge difference. That plus it is obvious to me that Slyme wants the additional skill ranks.
At this point, he has:
* Flagbearer for +1 Hit +1 Damage
* Song for +1 Hit +1 Damage
* Reach weapon for AoO
* Spells
* High Charisma to support lots of his face skills
* Ability to roll on any knowledge skill and enough skill ranks to be good at a couple of them
At higher levels, he can use a Charisma item and Runestones of Power for more spells.
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Right now I am looking at 12 12 16 13 10 16 for stats..
That gets me no dump stats, so my saves are not suffering.
Gives me a minor strength and dex boost...I have no intentions of trying to be a frontline fighter with this guy.
Good Con, lots of HP and fort saves.
Ok Int, a few extra languages, a decent selection of skills.
Good Cha, decent DCs for the few debuff spells I'll be slinging in between buffs and performing.
I am curious plaidwandering...how would you build a bard, since you think mine is so bad?
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Spell Warrior Skald is a great support. Probably one of the best in my opinion.
Overall a bard can buff up your allies with more "straight" bonuses but you loose the versatility the Spell Warrior Skald can bring.
Before becoming Venture Captain, my Lady Gragra was enchanting everyone's accepting her song with: (counting more than 3 weapons to enchant in the group)
+2 atk/dmg ...which can be switched for +1 atk/dmg and ghost touch/flaming/keen, this is the lesser version of a bard's song, but it's more versatile. (not even counting the bonuses you get from having an enchanted weapon of higher level, like counting as cold-iron, silver, adamantine etc.)
And you also get to share them rage powers, which meant in her case:
Good aligned weapons for everyone, dealing +1d6 damage to evil outsider
One additional attack on a living enemy creature hitting for BAB+CHA dealing 1D6+CHA located 15 feets away
20% miss chance for all foes using ranged OR reach attacks on my buddies
1D8 damage automatically dealt on an adjacent living enemy creature each turn
While still getting all the bards goodies like bardic knowledge and some of the best spells in game (finale, haste, heroism etc.)
And she also was descent melee character inflicting shaken and sickened conditions all around with her cruel adamantine Lucerne hammer and a feat.
A basic first round at high level was hasting up everyone, starting a song as a swift action, and moving around to a threatening square.
My favourite, most enjoyable character ever, welcome in every group.
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I'd say that an Int 12 Bard is just peachy - it's about the point where you start to get less return on point investment. With Versatile Performance and your decent skill points per level you can be versatile enough and cover multiple bases, without claiming every nice. Loremaster will keep your Knowledge skills competitive anyway.
Good Con is nice because it reduces the times when you need to be rescued.
Most important, don't be blinded by the bardic performance. Performance is wonderful, but people sometimes lose sight of the awesomeness that is the Bard spell list. It's at least as awesome as performance.
Spells like Saving Finale (with Lingering Performance!) and Gallant Inspiration will make you really popular.
My favorite Bard/Skald spell is Arcane Concordance. It's great for pre-buffing, with the free extend spell. But it can also allow your party to keep trucking in other unforeseen circumstances.
Spell Warrior Skald is a great support. Probably one of the best in my opinion.
Overall a bard can buff up your allies with more "straight" bonuses but you loose the versatility the Spell Warrior Skald can bring.
Before becoming Venture Captain, my Lady Gragra was enchanting everyone's accepting her song with: (counting more than 3 weapons to enchant in the group)
I like that archetype as a dip, but really feel they gave up too many things for an ineffective counter spell ability. I find the loss of Spell Kenning is particularly painful.
Did you ever successfully use any of the counter spell abilities?
I know how great the weapon enchantment ability is. Ghost Touch alone can be a life saver! It is the other trade offs that I find too costly.
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I like that archetype as a dip, but really feel they gave up too many things for an ineffective counter spell ability. I find the loss of Spell Kenning is particularly painful.Did you ever successfully use any of the counter spell abilities?
I know how great the weapon enchantment ability is. Ghost Touch alone can be a life saver! It is the other trade offs that I find too costly.
To be honest I must admit having probably never used the counterspell abilities of the Spell Warrior, in 13+ levels.
I haven't missed Spell Kenning that much during my leveling, but I always played with my wife's warpriest... so this might be why. And Spell Kenning is the only harsh trade-off of the archetype, an ability you use once per day until 11th level. What you gain is the possibility of your group always having the "appropriate" weapon :) !
So you asked what was most welcome, I just answered based on my actual in play/GMing experience.
Every tpk, mission failure, or character death that was still dead and had to spend pp/gp to raise included a non-combat type bard like your builds above, who just started a performance, cast one buff, and started in on their popcorn.
All of them.
My own experiences have been different, but that really shouldn't be a surprise.
I have met one bard that plays it as sing and I'm done. The thing is it doesn't matter what class she plays, her contributions are minimal and always exactly the same for that particular character. Her witch is almost completely useless since it is one hex and cackle. It is an issue with that player, not the character class or build.
I agree that a bard needs to contribute more than just a song. I just haven't had the bad experiences that you have. I also wouldn't connect it to moderate investment in attributes other than Charisma. Note however that I was one of the people suggesting that the original poster had invested too heavily in Intelligence with his original suggested build.
My own bards/skalds in society play are still relatively low level, but I've played along side multiple strong bards. The class is excellent at buffing a party, providing face skills, and often being able to provide something that does no hit point damage but allows us to either bypass an encounter or makes the encounter much easier.
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I have never played an assistance based character before whose goal was to make everyone else better at what they do. Maybe I should just stick with my default damage monkey or damage sponge character types.
Maybe something with a reach weapon, power attack/cleave/greater cleave, and enlarge potions? Gunslinger? Archery focused Slayer? or defensive...dwarven stonelord paladin? a little of both wildshape druid?
Right now my only PFS character is a kitsune rogue who will be able to apply multiple debuffs every time she lands a sneak attack, has a lot of espionage related skills, and utilizes realistic likeness, fast shifter and sleeves of many garments to its fullest and most broken degree.