It's only one feat in point blank master, and honestly thrown weapon build want that too or weapon finesse, so they need the same number of feats.Point Blank Master is only one feat but it is locked to Fighter only. :/
Or Ranger, Slayer, Warpriest, Swashbuckler (though you'd forfeit most of your class features to use it, to be fair), Brawlers (ditto), high level Mediums, Zen Archer Monks, Magi (particularly Myrmidarch), and any archetypes I may have missed.
It's only one feat in point blank master, and honestly thrown weapon build want that too or weapon finesse, so they need the same number of feats.
Weapon finesse could end up as an advantage.
Since fighters are the ones with the easiest access to ricochet shot, it is hard to avoid considering how advanced weapon training plays in the build. AWT has two different options that could apply to throwing weapons- one to finesse melee, and one to throwing. Both give double weapon training bonuses. So that could get you an extra +6/+6 with the gloves of dueling.
At the very least, throwing can be nice for theorycrafters. There are a tons of nice little bonuses you can toss on there, if you are willing to spend a ton of feats (...which a fighter has in spades).
The problem I find is that throwing weapons just doesn't seem to be deadly from the get go without a lot of feat investment, and the feats themselves don't make verisimilitudinous sense. Every time I throw my spear it bounces back into my hand even if I miss my target? I know I know, dragons/wizards/heroes/fireballs all exist, fantasy game etc, but that just feels both ludicrous AND incredibly boring.
"Yay! Lookit that. It somehow, amazingly bounced into my hand. Again. Just like that!"
I have compiled a comprehensive list of the issues with thrown weapons below:
- There are not many baseline good thrown weapons (i.e. damage dice, crit, range, proficiency) except the crystal chakram and it breaks after throwing.
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As mentioned on the previous age, Cao Phen made a rock throwing build using an Oracle with the Stone mystery for a certain ability, and Barbarian for the hurling powers, followed by a Fighter archetype. With a Belt of Mighty Hurling, you get to use Strength for attack rolls with thrown weapons.
Basically, you just throw rocks at people. But rocket that deal, like, 2d4+20 points of damage and you can automatically crit and you crit on a range of 17-20. Or you can shatter through rock on impact to make them take tons of bleed damage.
Cao Phen's thread.
Daezzn "Hurler" Keifr is a 10th level NPC version of the build with NPC stats and WBL that I wrote up.
Bumi Mei Fong is a 12th level example of the build, with a 25-pt buy and PC wealth by Ravingdork. Bumi inspired by own Daezzn build, which is inspired by Cao Phen's post.
I'd just homebrew an amulet of mighty fists-like weapon that applies an enhancement bonus on any thrown weapon.
I don't like options that just let your weapon return to you. It completely defeats the flavor of being a throwing weapon specialist.
I have compiled a comprehensive list of the issues with thrown weapons below:
- There are not many baseline good thrown weapons (i.e. damage dice, crit, range, proficiency) except the crystal chakram and it breaks after throwing.
Not really, those disadvantages are marginal.
The biggest problem is only one:
Any thrown magic weapon must be a magic weapon in its own right.
So unlike a magic bow or gun that imparts the magical enhancement on its ammunition, every throwing axe or dart must be anchanted, and becomes absurdly costly.
They should really make something like a "Glove of Powerful Throw" that can be enchanted like a weapon and which effect is imparting its magic on the weapon thrown using that hand
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I'd just homebrew an amulet of mighty fists-like weapon that applies an enhancement bonus on any thrown weapon.
I don't like options that just let your weapon return to you. It completely defeats the flavor of being a throwing weapon specialist.
There are plenty of examples of returning thrown weapons in fiction and games. Boomerangs, the Glaive in krull, the arrow in GotG, crosses in the castlevania games... ,It's a common trope.
Thrown weapons don't suffer from DR as much as you'd think as they can use the Clustered Shots feat and it comes online right about when DR starts becoming a problem.
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I have compiled a comprehensive list of the issues with thrown weapons below:
- There are not many baseline good thrown weapons (i.e. damage dice, crit, range, proficiency) except the crystal chakram and it breaks after throwing.
Not really, those disadvantages are marginal.
The biggest problem is only one:
Any thrown magic weapon must be a magic weapon in its own right.So unlike a magic bow or gun that imparts the magical enhancement on its ammunition, every throwing axe or dart must be anchanted, and becomes absurdly costly.
They should really make something like a "Glove of Powerful Throw" that can be enchanted like a weapon and which effect is imparting its magic on the weapon thrown using that hand
With ricochet toss you only need one weapon enchanted, or two if you're using TWF.
Played Tomb of the Iron Medusa with my wife's dagger throwing rogue. She performed excellently, but it certainly took a long time for her to get good with it. And she has to do without stat boosting belts.
That's why Ricochet Toss is awesome. You can toss out that Blinkback Belt when you finally get RT and pick up your stat boosting belts.
Played Tomb of the Iron Medusa with my wife's dagger throwing rogue. She performed excellently, but it certainly took a long time for her to get good with it. And she has to do without stat boosting belts.
Shameless plug for Automatic Bonus Progression from PF Unchained, which I really like. Solves the problem of "I'm going to be massively penalized if I use any non-stat-boosting belt."
The only real drawback to Startoss, for me, is that fact that if you miss even once, your whole attack routine falls apart for that round.
The only real drawback to Startoss, for me, is that fact that if you miss even once, your whole attack routine falls apart for that round.
Not if you were mostly taking it for the damage bonus and the option to have the other attacks occasionally, for whatever reason.
The only real drawback to Startoss, for me, is that fact that if you miss even once, your whole attack routine falls apart for that round.
I'm pretty sure that Startoss Shower is intended to be a throwing weapon equivalent to Great Cleave, which also ends if you miss.
The style feats are essentially:
Startoss Style -> Weapon Specialization
Startoss Comet -> Greater Weapon Specialization + Cleave
Startoss Shower -> Even Greater Weapon Specialization + Great Cleave
They even have the added bonuses that they all stack with the Weapon Specialization tree, don't require Fighter levels, and don't give you an AC penalty. The drawback, of course, is that you need your offhand to be free.
Played Tomb of the Iron Medusa with my wife's dagger throwing rogue. She performed excellently, but it certainly took a long time for her to get good with it. And she has to do without stat boosting belts.Shameless plug for Automatic Bonus Progression from PF Unchained, which I really like. Solves the problem of "I'm going to be massively penalized if I use any non-stat-boosting belt."
and here I just remove slot restrictions (with a few exceptions, like +physical stat and + mental stat are the ability you can apply, a +2 to 2 different stats is priced as that other belt)
also shameless plug of the mojo system.
works better than what we currently have.
I'm might be wrong about this, or many will think I am, but with the advent of Weapon Master's Handbook, I almost feel like thrown weapons are to Archery what twf should be to two handed fighting: a greater investment with very worthwhile rewards.
Archery is simpler to build (Though still feat intensive) and has greater range, but thrown weapons ends up with a lot more damage potential (Startoss, Advanced Weapon Training, Twf, etc...), combat versatility (Built in switch hitting) and can end up going 50-150 feet with only a -3 penalty with Far shot and Distance thrower. Hell with the aforementioned feats, you straight up ignore the first few range increment penalties.
Edit: It's also really stylish and super cool. Twf with Ricochet Toss? Good luck being more badass than that.
I'm might be wrong about this, or many will think I am, but with the advent of Weapon Master's Handbook, I almost feel like thrown weapons are to Archery what twf should be to two handed fighting: a greater investment with very worthwhile rewards.
Archery is simpler to build (Though still feat intensive) and has greater range, but thrown weapons ends up with a lot more damage potential (Startoss, Advanced Weapon Training, Twf, etc...), combat versatility (Built in switch hitting) and can end up going 50-150 feet with only a -3 penalty with Far shot and Distance thrower. Hell with the aforementioned feats, you straight up ignore the first few range increment penalties.
Edit: It's also really stylish and super cool. Twf with Ricochet Toss? Good luck being more badass than that.
I think this is pretty accurate. The warpriest starknife build I have does more damage the archery build, but took till higher levels to come on line. And it's mostly thanks to Ricochet toss, Trained Throw AWT, and Startoss Style.
It's true blink back belts are an option if you're using ABP instead of needing Ricochet Toss.
I actually need to look into whether or not it's better to spend the feat as a fighter/warpriest when using ABP for Ricochet Toss or to just use the blink back belt. I don't know of other belt items that are particularly useful for the build, and being able to ignore Quick Draw and Ricochet Toss early on could be good to bring the build online earlier.
I'd just homebrew an amulet of mighty fists-like weapon that applies an enhancement bonus on any thrown weapon.
I don't like options that just let your weapon return to you. It completely defeats the flavor of being a throwing weapon specialist.
Back in 3.5 there was a glove that produced javelins for throwing at will, we ended up deciding that someone could just enchant the glove as a weapon, then made a bandoleer version for throwing daggers, it was pretty sweet.
I don't know of other belt items that are particularly useful for the build
Strength/Dex belt?
I don't know of other belt items that are particularly useful for the buildStrength/Dex belt?
He's talking in the context of Automatic Bonus Progression (ABP). You don't need a stat belt, and in fact I think items that grant such bonuses are eliminated.
This is among the reasons why every table should use the automatic progression system or something similar. The mathematical need for the big six items is a massive deterrent for interesting ideas. If you used the magic item progression system you don't need to keep the belt slot for stat boosts. Unfortunately the one paizo set up still sort of doesn't help because weapon attunement is to a specific weapon, but that can easily be fixed to just be towards a weapon IE javalins, or throwing stars or what have you.
This is among the reasons why every table should use the automatic progression system or something similar. The mathematical need for the big six items is a massive deterrent for interesting ideas. If you used the magic item progression system you don't need to keep the belt slot for stat boosts. Unfortunately the one paizo set up still sort of doesn't help because weapon attunement is to a specific weapon, but that can easily be fixed to just be towards a weapon IE javalins, or throwing stars or what have you.
Or you can allow more wealth and custom items. Either way accomplishes the same power creep.
Note that while I'm sassing I'm not saying anything here is "badwrongfun". All in all I feel the entire thing is just an argument for bound systems instead of unbound systems for role playing games. But that's game theory for another day/thread.
This is among the reasons why every table should use the automatic progression system or something similar. The mathematical need for the big six items is a massive deterrent for interesting ideas. If you used the magic item progression system you don't need to keep the belt slot for stat boosts. Unfortunately the one paizo set up still sort of doesn't help because weapon attunement is to a specific weapon, but that can easily be fixed to just be towards a weapon IE javalins, or throwing stars or what have you.Or you can allow more wealth and custom items. Either way accomplishes the same power creep.
Note that while I'm sassing I'm not saying anything here is "badwrongfun". All in all I feel the entire thing is just an argument for bound systems instead of unbound systems for role playing games. But that's game theory for another day/thread.
Since ABP recommends cutting your WBL in ~half, I'm not sure it actually leads to a ton of power creep. A working throwing build, for example, isn't necessarily significantly more powerful than an archer build. It's just a new option.
I haven't done a careful analysis of the matter, since a lot of it has to do with potentially powerful combos from gear slots you wouldn't normally have open.
This is among the reasons why every table should use the automatic progression system or something similar. The mathematical need for the big six items is a massive deterrent for interesting ideas. If you used the magic item progression system you don't need to keep the belt slot for stat boosts. Unfortunately the one paizo set up still sort of doesn't help because weapon attunement is to a specific weapon, but that can easily be fixed to just be towards a weapon IE javalins, or throwing stars or what have you.Or you can allow more wealth and custom items. Either way accomplishes the same power creep.
Note that while I'm sassing I'm not saying anything here is "badwrongfun". All in all I feel the entire thing is just an argument for bound systems instead of unbound systems for role playing games. But that's game theory for another day/thread.
Since ABP recommends cutting your WBL in ~half, I'm not sure it actually leads to a ton of power creep. A working throwing build, for example, isn't necessarily significantly more powerful than an archer build. It's just a new option.
I haven't done a careful analysis of the matter, since a lot of it has to do with potentially powerful combos from gear slots you wouldn't normally have open.
Custom items cost more by approximately 1/2 so all told the totals will come out about the same.
This is among the reasons why every table should use the automatic progression system or something similar. The mathematical need for the big six items is a massive deterrent for interesting ideas. If you used the magic item progression system you don't need to keep the belt slot for stat boosts. Unfortunately the one paizo set up still sort of doesn't help because weapon attunement is to a specific weapon, but that can easily be fixed to just be towards a weapon IE javalins, or throwing stars or what have you.
ppsssst
just remove limitations on slots and everything still works. just have stats belts/headbands conflict and it's still 100% balanced...
Played Tomb of the Iron Medusa with my wife's dagger throwing rogue. She performed excellently, but it certainly took a long time for her to get good with it. And she has to do without stat boosting belts.Shameless plug for Automatic Bonus Progression from PF Unchained, which I really like. Solves the problem of "I'm going to be massively penalized if I use any non-stat-boosting belt."and here I just remove slot restrictions (with a few exceptions, like +physical stat and + mental stat are the ability you can apply, a +2 to 2 different stats is priced as that other belt)
also shameless plug of the mojo system.
works better than what we currently have.
@Bandw2 - what is that document part of? Link to the complete doc/Table of Contents?
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This is among the reasons why every table should use the automatic progression system or something similar. The mathematical need for the big six items is a massive deterrent for interesting ideas. If you used the magic item progression system you don't need to keep the belt slot for stat boosts. Unfortunately the one paizo set up still sort of doesn't help because weapon attunement is to a specific weapon, but that can easily be fixed to just be towards a weapon IE javalins, or throwing stars or what have you.Or you can allow more wealth and custom items. Either way accomplishes the same power creep.
Note that while I'm sassing I'm not saying anything here is "badwrongfun". All in all I feel the entire thing is just an argument for bound systems instead of unbound systems for role playing games. But that's game theory for another day/thread.
If you actually handle it correctly there is no power creep. You obviously don't have something like the automatic progresson system AND normal wealth. If you do that theres no power creep, you are just replacing a portion of player wealth that normally goes into +x items and instead just giving them plus x to stats weapons AC and saves as a part of leveling up.
Pardon my lack of reference material here but isn't there a legitimate improvised thrower? I seem to recall a variant that could effectively just pickup any nearby object and chuck said object fairly effectively?
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Pardon my lack of reference material here but isn't there a legitimate improvised thrower? I seem to recall a variant that could effectively just pickup any nearby object and chuck said object fairly effectively?
There's probably a way to do that semi-effectively (I don't know the details off the top of my head), but it runs into the same problem as other throwing builds before Ricochet Toss and Blinkback Belts: you don't have a single primary weapon that you can enchant like crazy.
I don't know of other belt items that are particularly useful for the buildStrength/Dex belt?
As Cheburn said, it's in the context of Automatic Bonus Progression which eliminates all bonuses to strength/dex/con/int/wis/cha on items, they simply don't exist. So the slot is completely free, otherwise without ABP you're going to be using that slot on a physical stat booster. Even casters typically want more dex or con.
With that no longer being an option and instead being granted by leveling you can now have interesting options, like a blink back belt, without it being a detriment to your character. I don't know of other great belt slot items to use when using ABP, so the blink back belt is actually viable and would eliminate the need for Ricochet Toss and Quickdraw.
And from my personal experience with ABP there isn't really power creep. Not at least until very high levels (15+) and since I rarely get to play that high for very long it's hard to determine whether it's just part of the normal high level play or if characters are stronger than average or just right (compared to not using ABP). It was actually mu experience that ABP actually powered down a lot of characters because you didn't have a wizard buying a +6 int bonus and ignoring everything else. You got your bonuses as you leveled up and couldn't grab them before the appointed time. In my experience it really helps mad classes and martials, and powers down straight casters. Which I consider a huge improvement for the game.
This is among the reasons why every table should use the automatic progression system or something similar. The mathematical need for the big six items is a massive deterrent for interesting ideas. If you used the magic item progression system you don't need to keep the belt slot for stat boosts. Unfortunately the one paizo set up still sort of doesn't help because weapon attunement is to a specific weapon, but that can easily be fixed to just be towards a weapon IE javalins, or throwing stars or what have you.ppsssst
just remove limitations on slots and everything still works. just have stats belts/headbands conflict and it's still 100% balanced...
Slot limitations don't exist in Pathfinder. If you want a Headband of Striding and Springing, it's absolutely possible. Slot limitations are only enforced in PFS.
Slot limitations don't exist in Pathfinder. If you want a Headband of Striding and Springing, it's absolutely possible. Slot limitations are only enforced in PFS.
That is not a baseline assumption for the game and I would say that statement is misleading and incorrect.
Some people certainly don't restrict items to the normally specified slots. Some people definitely do. When I GM I absolutely enforce the existing slot premises, however I also use ABP, and I will allow you to combine items in a slot (say you wanted a blinkback belt and a stat enhancing belt [I know not possible with ABP but this is just an example for explanation], you can pay the 50% increase cost of the less expensive item to get them in the same slot). However I will not allow you to say turn a normal ring effect into a bracer effect or something like that.
I think many others are the same way, perhaps not even allowing you to combine items.
The game's baseline assume you don't combine or re-slot items, but does include rules for pricing custom items but they are completely at the discretion of the GM.
I wouldn't say a lack of slot limitations is the baseline.
While there is some room to allow it, it is generally under VERY heavy GM discretion. You might convince most GMs to slip one or two items... but certainly not the entire slot system, or any conceivable conflicts you might have with it.
There is no hard and fast rule saying magic items are bound to a slot and cant be changed unless you pay more. There is no price difference between a heandband of ingellect and socks of intellect; only a warning that certain slots share space as a design decision for balance reasons.
In 3.5 there certainly was a rule. If I recall, there was a rather lengthy "side-bar" going over it all. But the same rule doesnt exist in Pathfinder. Most GMs probably play it that way, however, and PFS certainly enforces it, but that doesnt mean the rules strictly forbid it. The rules simply advise against switching slots.
I never got why a wrong slot item costs more. Shouldn't it have a much harder crafting DC instead? I mean you're messing with magic, it should be trickier to make, not more costly.
I never got why a wrong slot item costs more. Shouldn't it have a much harder crafting DC instead? I mean you're messing with magic, it should be trickier to make, not more costly.
This isn't D&D v3.5. To my knowledge, no such rule exists, nor is one implied, in Pathfinder.
I never got why a wrong slot item costs more. Shouldn't it have a much harder crafting DC instead? I mean you're messing with magic, it should be trickier to make, not more costly.This isn't D&D v3.5. To my knowledge, no such rule exists, nor is one implied, in Pathfinder.
...Read my post more carefully, I'm asking why things are the way they are, not saying that they were a way they weren't.
I think they cost more based on the 'base assumptions' for magic item slots. The thinking is that you don't want, say, a shirt of +6 to All Stats. They explicitly warn against this sort of thing when it comes to crafting custom items and especially to very carefully look them over before letting someone have, say, a ring of always-on True Strike.
isn't there a juggling feat that allows you to have more then two small weapons out at a time. i think i saw references to it in some gunslinger discussions.
I don't think thgere is a feat, but I'm positive there is a Bard archetype that lets you do so
I'm baffled by the thought of thrown weapon builds *needing* to be viable at all levels.
"I want all the benefits of ranged martials, combined with all the benefits of melee martials, but don't you dare give me any of their drawbacks!"
Ricochet Toss, as many have already said, actually does make thrown builds viable. I find that feat cheesy as hell and utterly despise it, but it's there for you to use. Somehow you can throw your axe into a squishy goblin and it'll bounce right back to you in a fraction of a second, allowing you to throw it again, a feat which even the greatest magic can't achieve... Yea, yea, "martials can't have good things"... except, you know, archers. And two-handers. Which already do their combat roles pretty damn well, so I see no reason for the game to also offer a viable third "I want it all" option.
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Ricochet Toss makes sense, not because it's something that would actually work in the real world, but because it's a trope that shows up in fantasy fiction often enough to be worth including in the game. Xena did it all the time with her chakram, for instance. I'm blanking on other examples off the top of my head, but I know there are plenty more.
If you think Thrown, even with Ricochet, is anywhere close to the best of both worlds you need to sit down and make a list of pros and cons. Trust me, thrown weapons break even at best.
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Ricochet Toss makes sense, not because it's something that would actually work in the real world, but because it's a trope that shows up in fantasy fiction often enough to be worth including in the game. Xena did it all the time with her chakram, for instance. I'm blanking on other examples off the top of my head, but I know there are plenty more.
Captain America's shield
That said, the truly ridiculous thing about Ricochet Toss is that, as written, it works with spears... grappling hooks... bolas... and even nets.
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Ricochet Toss makes sense, not because it's something that would actually work in the real world, but because it's a trope that shows up in fantasy fiction often enough to be worth including in the game. Xena did it all the time with her chakram, for instance. I'm blanking on other examples off the top of my head, but I know there are plenty more.Captain America's shield
D'oh!!! I knew there was a stupidly obvious example I was missing.