Living Grimoire, improvised weapon?


Rules Questions


6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

So, I'm not sure if it works like the way I read it, but does the Living Grimoire Inquisitor's "Holy Book" ability still have the book count as an improvised weapon?

Holy Book Says: When wielding the holy book as a weapon, it deals damage as a cold iron light mace. You are considered proficient, takes no improvised weapon penalty, and gains +1 on attack rolls with the book.

Now it says, "when wielding it as a weapon" and not as an improvised weapon, but it also brings up not taking the improvised weapon penalty. I can see it going either way saying it counts as a light mace for all purposes or it is an improvised weapon where you ignore the penalties just for it. Any thoughts? I mostly ask for traits like Surprise Weapon, or other things that build off that.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I would interpret "deals damage as a cold iron light mace" to mean only that. That is, calculate damage as if the target were struck with a cold iron light mace. Wielding and hitting are unaltered, except as altered by the following line.

Thus, while Weapon Focus (light mace) wouldn't apply, Surprise Weapon might.


Yeah it's definitely some grey territory.

I agree things like Weapon Focus don't work, and I think you can't even enhance the weapon with magic (improvised weapons can't be made magical).

But things like Surprise Weapon, and other feats that work with improvised weapons should work.


Well it also specifies later on that it can be enchanted, and then at level 4 you get the ability to temporarily enchant it like a warpriest (also adding bane to the list of abilities to choose from), am I allowed to post the whole ability now that the book is released? I was never 100% sure with the rules behind that

EDIT: Also the Holy Book ability calls out that the inquisitor is proficient with the book, so wouldn't: Weapon Focus (Book) work?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I think it actually has to be a weapon (simple, martial or exotic), unarmed strike, grapple, or a weapon-like class of spells (ray) for weapon focus (name of weapon) to work.

EDIT: Oxford comma


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The only requirements for Weapon Focus are that you are proficient with the weapon and that you have a BAB of +1. Holy Book states that you are proficient with it, so i would think that Weapon Focus(Holy Book) should work.

It definitely seems to be in this odd grey area of "improvised weapon that's treated like a normal weapon" though. Is there any other precedent for something like this to compare against?


I'd also think you can choose the book for things that ask you to pick weapons. Even if the wording is a little weird, the flavor is dead on that it wants you to smack people with your book. And I think that's cool enough to warrant a favorable reading of the text by the GM.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, I just want to somehow build around throwing the book and Startoss Style, and obviously max ranks in Prof(Barrister).

Contributor

I based the mechanics on the Rough & Ready Trait, which my wizards always make great use of to whack enemies with their weaponized spellbooks. The Catch Off-Guard feat is another one in this same design realm.

Unfortunately, even looking up those two abilities raises some of the same grey-areas issues: if it's a weapon for me, can I take weapon-specific feats for it or enchant my weaponized object (say, in another situation, the gravedigger archetype's shovel) as a weapon?

Tricky, yes. I wish I'd further clarified in the ability, but as it stands the questions of whether or not feats apply (personally, I'd think so, since feats are a personal thing requiring talent or training) or the ability to enchant the weaponized object (less clear, but does the energy of magic weapon enchantment cock its eyebrows and say "waaaaaiiiit a minute! This isn't a SWORD!!!" and run away from your book when you try to enchant it?) are going to have to be up to a developer or the FAQ.


I'm honestly thinking making a FAQ request regarding improvised weapons might be important at some point. It would be nice to get clarity, especially due to this new archetype.

Contributor

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Saethori wrote:
I'm honestly thinking making a FAQ request regarding improvised weapons might be important at some point. It would be nice to get clarity, especially due to this new archetype.

I agree. I had a long-standing argument with my home GM over whether or not my grave-digging cleric of Pharasma with the Rough and Ready trait could enchant his shovel, and we went round and round. I imagine the conversations between enchanters and their pet magical energy going something like this:

Enchanter: "Hey there, Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment! I'd like to introduce you to this...axe! Make it magical, please?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "No problem! Consider it +1!"

Enchanter: "Hey again! New week, new adventurer request! Looking for a another +1 enchantment out of you, this time on this druid's...sickle! Cool?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "Yeah man, cool!"

Enchanter: "Hey yeah...so! This guy just brought me a stick. It's just a...you know...a big stick. Just a tree branch, really. Let's call it a...club. Wanna enchant it?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "Yes of COURSE!"

Enchanter: "Soooo...me again. Just hoping you can help me out on yet another +1 today! You mind placing your magical energy in this...shovel?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "What is the MATTER with you??? Hell no! I'm not going in THAT thing! Is an army of holes attacking the village? They getting damage reduction these days or what??? We are THROUGH!!!"

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Brandon Hodge wrote:
Saethori wrote:
I'm honestly thinking making a FAQ request regarding improvised weapons might be important at some point. It would be nice to get clarity, especially due to this new archetype.

I agree. I had a long-standing argument with my home GM over whether or not my grave-digging cleric of Pharasma with the Rough and Ready trait could enchant his shovel, and we went round and round. I imagine the conversations between enchanters and their pet magical energy going something like this:

Enchanter: "Hey there, Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment! I'd like to introduce you to this...axe! Make it magical, please?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "No problem! Consider it +1!"

Enchanter: "Hey again! New week, new adventurer request! Looking for a another +1 enchantment out of you, this time on this druid's...sickle! Cool?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "Yeah man, cool!"

Enchanter: "Hey yeah...so! This guy just brought me a stick. It's just a...you know...a big stick. Like a tree branch, really. Let's call it a...club. Wanna enchant it?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "Yes of COURSE!"

Enchanter: "Soooo...me again. Just hoping you can help me out on yet another +1 today! You mind placing your magical energy in this...shovel?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "What is the MATTER with you??? Hell no! I'm not going in THAT thing! Is an army of holes attacking the village? They getting damage reduction these days or what??? We are THROUGH!!!"

Issa spear.

Honest.


bewareoftom wrote:

So, I'm not sure if it works like the way I read it, but does the Living Grimoire Inquisitor's "Holy Book" ability still have the book count as an improvised weapon?

Holy Book Says: When wielding the holy book as a weapon, it deals damage as a cold iron light mace. You are considered proficient, takes no improvised weapon penalty, and gains +1 on attack rolls with the book.

Now it says, "when wielding it as a weapon" and not as an improvised weapon, but it also brings up not taking the improvised weapon penalty. I can see it going either way saying it counts as a light mace for all purposes or it is an improvised weapon where you ignore the penalties just for it. Any thoughts? I mostly ask for traits like Surprise Weapon, or other things that build off that.

As a GM, I would let you take Surprise Weapon, because it is still an improvised weapon. It only does damage as a cold iron light mace, but it is not a cold iron light mace.

I would also let you take Weapon Focus (Holy Book), since you are proficient with it.

That's just me, but I see why it may need a FAQ.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

*Cast Resurrection*

There are multiple questions here that could use some clarification...

1) Do "improvised weapon" feats/traits apply to the "Holy Book"? (e.g. Surprise Weapon)

2) Can you take Weapon Focus etc feats in "Holy Book"?

I'm interested in more feedback as I head down this dark road...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
jcg wrote:

*Cast Resurrection*

There are multiple questions here that could use some clarification...

1) Do "improvised weapon" feats/traits apply to the "Holy Book"? (e.g. Surprise Weapon)

2) Can you take Weapon Focus etc feats in "Holy Book"?

I'm interested in more feedback as I head down this dark road...

RAI I think is No and Yes. As written it seems to be Yes and No.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

My vote is Yes and No.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
James Risner wrote:

My vote is Yes and No.

The weird thing about living grimoire is it's pretty clear it's an improvised weapon ( only deals damage as a light mace rather than counting as, requires special language to be enchanted, explicitly take no improvised penalty) but you're also proficient in it, which is the only actual requirement for weapon focus. It's also not something you normally can be with improvised weapons.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Agree squiggit. Hopefully one of the devs will review this and comment, the language for this one could have been a bit more clear.


FAQ cleared this up. It's a simple weapon.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I don't see a FAQ tab for Horror Adventures. Link please ?


SlimGauge wrote:
I don't see a FAQ tab for Horror Adventures. Link please ?
Mark Seifter wrote:
Hey everyone! The FAQ actually went up last Friday but was invisible (including to me). But it's visible now here.


Unfortunately, the FAQ answers the questions only for the Living Grimoire, but not any other improvised weapon users.

Which means fans of Rough And Ready builds are going to be left cold for even longer.


Rysky wrote:
Brandon Hodge wrote:
Saethori wrote:
I'm honestly thinking making a FAQ request regarding improvised weapons might be important at some point. It would be nice to get clarity, especially due to this new archetype.

I agree. I had a long-standing argument with my home GM over whether or not my grave-digging cleric of Pharasma with the Rough and Ready trait could enchant his shovel, and we went round and round. I imagine the conversations between enchanters and their pet magical energy going something like this:

Enchanter: "Hey there, Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment! I'd like to introduce you to this...axe! Make it magical, please?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "No problem! Consider it +1!"

Enchanter: "Hey again! New week, new adventurer request! Looking for a another +1 enchantment out of you, this time on this druid's...sickle! Cool?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "Yeah man, cool!"

Enchanter: "Hey yeah...so! This guy just brought me a stick. It's just a...you know...a big stick. Like a tree branch, really. Let's call it a...club. Wanna enchant it?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "Yes of COURSE!"

Enchanter: "Soooo...me again. Just hoping you can help me out on yet another +1 today! You mind placing your magical energy in this...shovel?"

Theoretically Sentient Magical Enchantment: "What is the MATTER with you??? Hell no! I'm not going in THAT thing! Is an army of holes attacking the village? They getting damage reduction these days or what??? We are THROUGH!!!"

Issa spear.

Honest.

You can't enchant improvised weapons (unless a specific clause stipulates otherwise, such as the Living Grimoire's Holy Book class feature, because they aren't weapons to begin with. Wielding it like a weapon and using it frequently as a weapon a weapon does not make. You're swinging around a shovel, full stop. If you masterwork a tool (ie. blacksmith hammer, shovel, anvil, skinning knife, etc.) then it lets the user of the item benefit from a +2 bonus on relevant skill checks with the item (forging objects, digging holes, flaying a kill, etc.) but that's the only thing it does.

In order to enchant a weapon it must first be a masterwork weapon, and a masterwork shovel isn't a masterwork weapon, it's a masterwork tool you're using as a weapon, and you don't receive a +1 enhancement bonus to using it as a weapon.

In fact, the Gloves of Improvised Might are an item explicitly for what you're trying to do, consider those instead.

Also yes, necromancy abound — Pharasma has no power here.


Saethori wrote:

Unfortunately, the FAQ answers the questions only for the Living Grimoire, but not any other improvised weapon users.

Which means fans of Rough And Ready builds are going to be left cold for even longer.

The wording of the trait is clear. You don't take the penalty for using an improvised weapon, it doesn't make you proficient in it. You also get a +1, which is nice, I suppose.

You can't enchant improvised weapons (sans Holy Book, and it's not even that anymore, it's a simple weapon), but you can masterwork them. However, doing so only gives you the +2 bonus of a Masterwork Tool, not the +1 enhancement bonus to attacks. Since you can't choose how you masterwork an item (the item's type dictates what masterworking does for you) it can never be masterworked into a weapon, meaning it can't ever be enchanted.


Going to step away from the rules focus, the mental gymnastics to make the rules make sense are a fail for me.

I prefer the Runequest approach, "Most people who know the bladesharp spell call it plowsharp." Economy-wise enchanting a shovel is a bit stupid, but having a shovel that digs better because it doesn't loose its edge is, other than cost, a good idea. Disallowing it, when rules exist for masterwork tools and weapons both, is not really a good idea. On the surface having enchanted tools won't trivialize skills, but will give an even greater advantage to wealthy adventurers.

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