Slayers & Ranger Combat Style


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

1)you are limited to one combat style?

2)You can only spend Slayer talents on this Talent 3 times? So I can't spend another slayer talent to take another lvl 1 feat of my choose style...

3)Once I have choosen a style I can choose the feats they've unlocked with the normal feats without consideration for any other requirements?

talent in question:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/slayer-talents/paizo- --slayer-talents/ranger-combat-style

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

1. Yes.

2. Yes. The talent limits you to accessing it at the specified levels.

3. No. The removal of prerequisites only applies to feats taken with the talent.

Scarab Sages

Oh well, Guess 3 times is still better than 1.

A little troublesome for the build I got in mind though a none sneaky Slayer moving around in Heavy Armor.

Any archtypes to come to mind from other classes that resemble the Slayer?


1. Yes, one combat style.

2. It appears that way, yes. Rangers get feats at 2nd, 6th, and 10th, so it makes sense that slayers would get it at (earliest) 2nd, and would be able to take it again at 6th and 10th.

3. No, only the feats from selecting the slayer talent at 2nd, 6th, and 10th allow you to ignore prerequisites. Any feats you take from the style that aren't the slayer talents follow normal prereqs.

Edit: ninja'd! Note, however, that the slayer allows you to use the combat style feats in heavy armor, while the ranger does not. Also, you can pick up one combat feat and Weapon Focus once through rogue talents taken with your slayer talents. It's still a fantastic class, and might still work. You'll have to post in Advice for the build-specific advice you want.

Scarab Sages

Edit:
Thanks for the quick replies everyone


Azullius Koujou wrote:

1)you are limited to one combat style?

2)You can only spend Slayer talents on this Talent 3 times? So I can't spend another slayer talent to take another lvl 1 feat of my choose style...

3)Once I have choosen a style I can choose the feats they've unlocked with the normal feats without consideration for any other requirements?

talent in question:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/slayer-talents/paizo- --slayer-talents/ranger-combat-style

1. Yes. You select one combat style when you first take the talent, and you are limited to the 2nd level options of the style you chose (PRD says 1st level, this is an errata and needs to be fixed, since Rangers do not get Combat Style feats until 2nd level).

2. Yes, and by RAW, you can only spend it at 2nd, 6th, and 10th level. Per the rules, you cannot spend a 4th level Slayer talent to acquire the first set of feats, as it specifies that you choose this talent at 2nd, 6th, and 10th. For the record, you can take another 2nd level combat style feat with the 6th level Slayer Talent, though usually, the 6th level options are significantly better, so it's not normally taken.

3. You are counted as normally having the feat, yes. So, if you were allowed to take Improved Shield Bash, but do not have proficiency with a Shield, as an example, you would count as having the Improved Shield Bash feat for abilities and effects which require it (such as by selecting additional feats). Remember that you only count for the feat that you chosen, and that you don't fulfill any other requirements (such as by having 13 Dexterity, or proficiency).

Hope this helps!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Azullius Koujou wrote:
Any archtypes to come to mind from other classes that resemble the Slayer?

Probably those in the ACG for the other classes. The Sanctified Slayer is an Inquisitor with Studied Combat, but probably not what you are looking for.

Scarab Sages

Also, expect table variation on using ranger combat styles in heavy armor. As the talent references the ranger ability, many rule that the style is only usable in medium armor.


Imbicatus wrote:
Also, expect table variation on using ranger combat styles in heavy armor. As the talent references the ranger ability, many rule that the style is only usable in medium armor.

This was explicitly confirmed by the design team: All ranger combat style restrictions apply to slayers (or anyone) taking them, because nothing in the slayer ability says they don't. The post is somewhere in the ACG product thread.


It seems a little odd to me that the Ranger can get additional combat style feats in his chain at 14th and 18th levels, and the Slayer with Ranger Combat Style does not.

The Slayer could also grab Rogue Talent (Combat Trick) and Rogue Advanced Talent / Ninja Trick to gain a "bonus" Combat Feat at 4th, 8th, or 12+ level (as well as any odd level general feat being used for a combat feat).

But the Slayer will have to meet the prerequisites on all the combat feats taken, aside from the ones at 2nd, 6th, and 10th levels.

That's my reading anyhow.


Calth wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Also, expect table variation on using ranger combat styles in heavy armor. As the talent references the ranger ability, many rule that the style is only usable in medium armor.

This was explicitly confirmed by the design team: All ranger combat style restrictions apply to slayers (or anyone) taking them, because nothing in the slayer ability says they don't. The post is somewhere in the ACG product thread.

That's ridiculous.

The slayer talent doesn't say "gain the Combat Style class feature of the ranger, but worse", it says:

Ranger Combat Style Slayer Talent wrote:
The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.

.

Heck, even in PFS I think you'd be good.
Nowhere in the ability does it state that it does restrict you in any other ways, nor does it say you gain any other benefits than what is stated. You can't just apply restrictions on something like that out of the blue.

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
2. Yes, and by RAW, you can only spend it at 2nd, 6th, and 10th level. Per the rules, you cannot spend a 4th level Slayer talent to acquire the first set of feats, as it specifies that you choose this talent at 2nd, 6th, and 10th.

Wait, what?

I thought this was inclusive. As in, the slayer can take this talent once at 2nd (or later) and again at 6th (or later).

Just like Extra Evolution doesn't require you to take it precisely at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.


If Slayer Talent Ranger Combat Style worked in Heavy Armor, it would actually be better than the original. Rules As Written, it looks like it might but Rules As Intended, it shouldn't. Expect an Errata/FAQ eventually.


Well, the slayer only gets three feats from the combat style by spending three slayer talents, as opposed to the 5 that the ranger gets, at zero cost.
Also, it locks the slayer out from taking a few archetypes if they want all three feats, because those talents (at 2nd, 6th, and 10th) are replaced.

So, no. The Slayer version is objectively worse than the Ranger version, even if it does work in heavy armor.

Allowing three combat feats to be used in heavy armor (which the slayer doesn't have originally, so has to be bought) breaks what about the game exactly?

Dark Archive

Weirdo wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
2. Yes, and by RAW, you can only spend it at 2nd, 6th, and 10th level. Per the rules, you cannot spend a 4th level Slayer talent to acquire the first set of feats, as it specifies that you choose this talent at 2nd, 6th, and 10th.

Wait, what?

I thought this was inclusive. As in, the slayer can take this talent once at 2nd (or later) and again at 6th (or later).

Just like Extra Evolution doesn't require you to take it precisely at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.

Yeah, I think Darksol is reading the RAW a bit TOO literally. I mean, by his interpretation, Extra Evolution does say it can only be taken at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th. (Nevermind that you don't even get a feat at 20th level...)

Sovereign Court

PRD wrote:
Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the 1st-level feat choices for that style. He can choose feats from his chosen combat style, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

1st-level is an error. It doesn't say you can only take this only as your level 2 talent. Since you don't get talents before level 2, you're not going to get there sooner than a ranger.

PRD wrote:
At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the style's feat list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the style's feat list.

You could read this narrowly to say you can only do this at level 6/10, but I believe the intended reading is that "at level 6 this option opens up again" because normally you can't take a slayer talent more than once. The idea being that you can't get there earlier than a ranger.


Azullius Koujou wrote:

1)you are limited to one combat style?

2)You can only spend Slayer talents on this Talent 3 times? So I can't spend another slayer talent to take another lvl 1 feat of my choose style...

3)Once I have choosen a style I can choose the feats they've unlocked with the normal feats without consideration for any other requirements?

talent in question:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/slayer-talents/paizo- --slayer-talents/ranger-combat-style

1) Yes, you only get to choose one combat style to select from and each time you use the Ranger Combat Style you select one feat (which you ignore the prerequisite requirements for) from the list of accessible feats in the description of the ranger combat style. More feats become available at levels 6 and 10.

2) If I understand your question...Yes, the slayer can only choose Ranger Combat Style talent 3 times, so you couldn't spend it a 4th time to get a forth feat for which you ignore the prerequisites. However, you could spend your 2nd Ranger Combat Style talent to pickup one of the feats from first set of feats available, if that's what you're asking. As an example, at 2nd level you choose rapid shot as your feat using Ranger Combat Style. At 6th level, you choose Ranger Combat style again and you decide to pick up Point Blank Shot (for whatever reason). It's a waste of the Combat Style in this instance because Point Blank Shot has no requirements, but is legal to do. The Ranger Combat Styles add feats to the pool you can select from at levels 6 and 10, it doesn't remove the option to select feats mentioned at previous levels.

3) Absolutely not. The Ranger Combat Style is what lets you ignore the prerequisites, and only the single feat you select each time you take the talent is allowed to ignore the prerequisites at the time of selection. So if I chose Ranger Combat Style talent at 6th level, and chose Improved Precise Shot at that time. At level 7 when I get a feat from leveling up normally I cannot choose Point Blank Master because I don't get to ignore the feat requirement of Weapon Specialization.

Shadow Lodge

bigrig107 wrote:
Well, the slayer only gets three feats from the combat style by spending three slayer talents, as opposed to the 5 that the ranger gets, at zero cost.

It's not zero cost, it's opportunity cost, since if the ranger didn't have combat styles they would have some other class feature of roughly equivalent value.

It is actually an advantage for the slayer to be able to choose something other than combat styles if it would be more useful to their particular build, rather than being locked in.

bigrig107 wrote:
Also, it locks the slayer out from taking a few archetypes if they want all three feats, because those talents (at 2nd, 6th, and 10th) are replaced.

This would not be true if I'm correct about being able to take combat styles at any level after 2, 6, and 10.

The Concordance

If I have 6 ranks in Stealth, I still count has having 5 ranks in Stealth.

If I have STR 15, I still count as having STR 13.

If I'm a level 8 Slayer, I still count as a level 6 Slayer.

Just my take on the levels 2/6/10 argument.


ShieldLawrence wrote:

If I have 6 ranks in Stealth, I still count has having 5 ranks in Stealth.

If I have STR 15, I still count as having STR 13.

If I'm a level 8 Slayer, I still count as a level 6 Slayer.

Just my take on the levels 2/6/10 argument.

That's a FAQ for fulfilling feat pre-requisites.

I hate to say it, but if we're going with the interpretation that "FAQs only do what they say they do," then that's not a relevant argument, even if by other standards, it's RAI.

I was a little extreme in the claim, but it is a pure RAW reading, since it says "At 6th level, he may select this talent again..." The intent should be pretty clear that it's a restriction as to when you are able to choose the talent again, not that it's the only level you can choose it.

But, I will say that since others have understood the potential interpretation behind it, that it serves as a means of caution; in other words, make sure you confirm with your GM as to how he would interpret the clause before you proceed with its selection.

The Concordance

@Darksol Hence why I didn't link the FAQ and called it "my take" because that's all it really is, my interpretation.


Actually, that FAQ was for prestige classes and then branched out to say the principle applies to other things like feats. Not all FAQ are meant to be constrained. The older FAQ very often stray from their initial question to answer broader questions.


The problem with using that is that the text doesn't say "must be at least 6th level to take this again", as some Eidolon evolutions do.

It literally says, word for word:

Ranger Combat Style wrote:
PFS Legal Ranger Combat Style]The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.

It's actually pretty clear what it means.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
ShieldLawrence wrote:

If I have 6 ranks in Stealth, I still count has having 5 ranks in Stealth.

If I have STR 15, I still count as having STR 13.

If I'm a level 8 Slayer, I still count as a level 6 Slayer.

Just my take on the levels 2/6/10 argument.

That's a FAQ for fulfilling feat pre-requisites.

I hate to say it, but if we're going with the interpretation that "FAQs only do what they say they do," then that's not a relevant argument, even if by other standards, it's RAI.

I was a little extreme in the claim, but it is a pure RAW reading, since it says "At 6th level, he may select this talent again..." The intent should be pretty clear that it's a restriction as to when you are able to choose the talent again, not that it's the only level you can choose it.

But, I will say that since others have understood the potential interpretation behind it, that it serves as a means of caution; in other words, make sure you confirm with your GM as to how he would interpret the clause before you proceed with its selection.

By that logic, Slayers cannot select most of their talents since the talents don't specify what level the Slayer is forced to take them at.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The specifc wording in the talent says may.

Where, in anywhere in the Slayer (or anything else for that matter) does it say they have to, or that may=only?


Well, yeah, he doesn't have to take it at 6th or 10th.

But he can't take it at 4th, 6th, 8th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, or 20th either.


You could take this Slayer Talent for Ranger Combat Style at 4th if you have not taken it at 2nd (maybe your party needed Trapfinding more at 2nd instead...). And you could then get the 2nd feat in the chain at 6th or 8th (for example), and the 3rd feat at 10th or higher (continuing the example).

You just only get to select 3 feats in the Ranger chain without having to meet the stat / BAB / [original feat's] level prerequisites. You would have to meet the prerequisites to take any other feats (from that chain or otherwise) for feats utilized in the odd levels or outside of the 3 levels you designate at 2, 6, and 10 or higher.

Shadow Lodge

As pointed out earlier, the Extra Evolution feat has similar language to Slayer Combat Styles regarding when you can take it, but clearly is intended to mean "this level or later" since a summoner can't take a feat at exactly 10th level.

Extra Evolution wrote:
Special: This evolution can be taken once at 1st level, and again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.


You could take extra evolution at 10th level Summoner if you also had one level of some other class. Which is besides the point of this thread anyway.


Sorry if this is a derail, but I thought it was related. The ranger slayer talent allows for you to take it 3 times without any external influence, once before 6th(lvl2 or 4), once at 6th, and another at 10th, but what if your favored class bonus gave you an extra slayer talent at lvl6? Obviously it wouldn't work at lvl 12 or 18, but would you be able to take an additional ranger slayer talent at lvl6?

So let's say:
Lvl 2 Ranger talent
Lvl 4 A different slayer talent
Lvl 6 Ranger talent
Lvl 6 Ranger talent (from FCB)
Lvl 8 A different slayer talent
Lvl 10 Ranger talent

The talent says "At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list."
but it doesn't say you can only do this once at lvl6 so I just want to confirm.


RandomReverie wrote:

Sorry if this is a derail, but I thought it was related. The ranger slayer talent allows for you to take it 3 times without any external influence, once before 6th(lvl2 or 4), once at 6th, and another at 10th, but what if your favored class bonus gave you an extra slayer talent at lvl6? Obviously it wouldn't work at lvl 12 or 18, but would you be able to take an additional ranger slayer talent at lvl6?

So let's say:
Lvl 2 Ranger talent
Lvl 4 A different slayer talent
Lvl 6 Ranger talent
Lvl 6 Ranger talent (from FCB)
Lvl 8 A different slayer talent
Lvl 10 Ranger talent

The talent says "At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list."
but it doesn't say you can only do this once at lvl6 so I just want to confirm.

Emphasis mine.

Advanced Class Guide, Page 53 wrote:
Slayer Talents: As a slayer gains experience, he learns a number of talents that aid him and confound his foes. Starting at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, a slayer gains one slayer talent. Unless otherwise noted, a slayer cannot select an individual talent more than once.


RandomReverie wrote:

Sorry if this is a derail, but I thought it was related. The ranger slayer talent allows for you to take it 3 times without any external influence, once before 6th(lvl2 or 4), once at 6th, and another at 10th, but what if your favored class bonus gave you an extra slayer talent at lvl6? Obviously it wouldn't work at lvl 12 or 18, but would you be able to take an additional ranger slayer talent at lvl6?

So let's say:
Lvl 2 Ranger talent
Lvl 4 A different slayer talent
Lvl 6 Ranger talent
Lvl 6 Ranger talent (from FCB)
Lvl 8 A different slayer talent
Lvl 10 Ranger talent

The talent says "At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list."
but it doesn't say you can only do this once at lvl6 so I just want to confirm.

Ultimate Intrigue clears up FCB requirements; you can't take 1/6 of a talent until 2nd level, when you get the Talents class feature, because you cannot gain 1/6th of another something that you don't already possess.

It's been cited before in another thread, but I can't find it on the PRD or the D20 site, so I'd beg somebody with a PDF and/or a screenshot for absolute confirmation.


It isn't clear if the rules from UI apply here. The FCB isn't modifying the talent class feature.


Melkiador wrote:
It isn't clear if the rules from UI apply here. The FCB isn't modifying the talent class feature.

Based on this FAQ here, I would say that gaining more Slayer Talents than what the class normally gives you is certainly grounds for the claim that it modifies the talent class feature, especially if we want to claim that having 1 more round of Bardic Performance than usual (an example the FAQ gives) is grounds for modifying the entire Bardic Performance class feature. That means in this case, having 1 more Slayer Talent than usual would count as "modifying" the entire Slayer Talent class feature.

This isn't like the Warpriest FCB, where you just get a general Combat feat, which anyone can take (assuming they meet the pre-requisites), this is a FCB where you gain the benefit of an additional class feature choice, and that benefit follows all of the rules and restrictions of said class feature.

I mean, there's even an example in the UI book (from what I can remember) that cites the #1 offender of the "unwritten" FCB rule, Rogue Talents, which function nearly identical to Slayer Talents in their function and restriction.


Those are rules for archetypes and not FCBs though. The FCB isn't altering anything about the way your talents work. It's just giving you "a new slayer talent". It doesn't even use the word "extra", so there is no expectation of having had one to begin with.


Melkiador wrote:
Those are rules for archetypes and not FCBs though. The FCB isn't altering anything about the way your talents work. It's just giving you "a new slayer talent". It doesn't even use the word "extra", so there is no expectation of having had one to begin with.

The Rogue FCB uses the same exact wording as you mentioned ("gain +1/6 of a new rogue talent"), and everybody says that you can't take that FCB until you have the Rogue Talent class feature. You're basically saying that every one of those people are wrong, and you're ignoring the text in Ultimate Intrigue that uses Rogue Talents as a direct example of an incorrect acquisition of FCBs, that you have to have the Rogue Talent class feature in order to take it.

I'd even cite you the exact text if I could find it; I know I saw it somewhere.


Cite the text and we will see. I haven't seen any text cited to that effect yet, but I don't have the actual book. Maybe people just haven't been including the entire text in their previous quoted citations.


Everyone is using the FAQ on the FCB that was specifically made to prevent oracles from having animal companions with HD=1.5 char level, to blanket it to things that obviously weren't considered when it was made.

Specifically, if something gives you 1/6 of something, and you will have it normally by the 6th level where you actually get the extra one, it should work.

The FAQ was to prevent people from taking a revelation 1/2 of their levels, so that when they get it for the first time at 7 they automatically get the 10th level version of it with the upgrade.

If you think that you have to have the talent class feature at level 2 to take the 1/6 talent FCB, then you have to go back through the APG and errata about 6 different examples that have the wrong bonuses listed when they were printed, because they started using them from level 1.

The text does not match the "RAN" (Rules as Nerfed), because the rules didn't limit you at when created. Then they printed something that had crazy interactions, and instead of specifying that you can only take -specific powers that scale with level- after you first get them, they blanket statemented it in a knee jerk overreaction that actually invalidated several of their own printed examples.

Examples: 1/6 rogue talent, combat feat, slayer talent, magus arcana, etc. should work from level 1.

Oracle revelations, bard songs, etc. that count as higher levels, shouldn't be able to be taken until you actually have that revelation, song, etc.

That simple of a distinction in the FAQ would have stopped the multiple threads for the last 4 years, and would also have meant that the examples in the printed books would also still be correct.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Slayers & Ranger Combat Style All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.