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Or... you could play a fighter with the Viking archetype.
Link: g

Does it normally take this long for paizo to add stuff to the website? John said it was "submitted and queued for addition to the website." 2 week ago already. It's been 3 months since the last update, it's getting kind of silly.

Ammon Knight of Ragathiel wrote:

okay so looks like hunter is the best choice, should have figured, Thanks people.

any feats or companion archetypes i should look out for? I was looking at the Draconic Companion archetype because the idea of a massive Dragon snake is Awesome.

I highly recommend these:

Escape Route (No AoOs when moving when next to your companion, low priority)
Outflank (Hunter gives this free at level 2, increases Flank bonus to +4)
Pack Flanking (Flank with your companion while adjacent to it)
Improved spell sharing (Split the duration of your buffs, but use 1 spell to buff both you and your companion at the same time)

All of those are teamwork feats except Planar Focus. From lvl3, hunter shares all of his teamwork feats with their animal companions.

Palestag wrote:
Also, I don't have a 30 point buy. I was confused as to how the point buy system worked. I thought 1 point costed 1 point. I now see to get something to 18 it actually costs 17 points, not 8. Which is crazy. I would much rather roll since when I did it that way I got 14, 17, 14, 10, 19, 8.... which is apparently pretty amazing. I think with a 20 point buy I would do something like Str. 10, Dex. 15, Con. 15, Wis. 16, Int. 8, Cha. 8 and use a Human/Half-elf race bonus of +2 on Wisdom, bringing it to 18.

Rolling for stats is nice until you roll like 12, 13, 11, 10, 8 , 8.

Sure, if you rolled great it's nice, but when you roll crap you're in trouble. Point buy ensures everyone in the party has a more or less similar stat array and you don't have like 1 guy who rolled incredibly well and is having a blast, and another who rolled absolute crap and can't enjoy the game because he can't do anything competently.

Trevor86 wrote:

Though actually unhindering shield and a buckler might be better - I think in PFS shield brace makes your spear/polearm treated as one-handed for strength & power attack.

This is correct. Also Unhindering shield is not legal for PFS. Archives of Nethys has labeled the feat incorrectly.

"Feats: All feats in this book are legal for play except Mobile Stronghold and Unhindering Shield. "

Consider armor with the Hosteling enchantment.

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
Here's the official blog post listing weapon groups for a bunch of new weapons, including the Fauchard counting as a Polearm.

omg, thank you DX

*sobs* thank youuuu

It's not that I really needed it to count as a glaive.

I just wanted the fauchard to work for a fighter weapon group. I'm applying for a living campaign where the gm wont be same person each time so asking for GM approval each time is risky.

Now I need to figure out what kind of polearm would be good for a future dragon slayer...

Darnit, there goes my fauchard fighter idea then.

I ask because the wording on the weapon description page basically says it's just a more difficult to use glaive.

Question about EDV. Do the EDV numbers for higher levels include iterative attacks or just for a single attack?
I always thought it was just for single attacks, but someone said it was for all the attacks in a Full Attack averaged out(like [attack 1 + attack 2]/2) instead and I just wanted to be sure.

Derklord wrote:

You do know that spreadsheets can extract the average damage out of something like "2d6", right? That's what I'm using for the the DPR calculater attatched to my character sheet.

=LEFT(E2;FIND("d";E2)-1)*(RIGHT(E2;LEN(E2)-FIND("d";E2))+1)/2 if I translated that correctly

Oops, didn't see this. Will add it in real quick! Thank you!

Ok, the issues Chess Pwn mentioned should be fixed. Going to sleep now, but I try to fix any more issues tomorrow(if there's any).

Chess Pwn wrote:

Just have an input for non-crit damage. Add that to the damage per hit section. And then in the crit formula just look at the crittable damage.

link to how to make a selectable drop down in google sheets. Make it a list of just Yes or no for the criteria.

Oh, my sheet actually has the drop down sheet, I guess it doesn't get copied over when you copy/paste it. I'll try changing it to a format that can be copy/pasted.

Chess Pwn wrote:

I've changed it to Dice number and Damage Dice. The original was meant to be Min roll and Maximum roll (so 2d6 would be 2 and 12), but that wasn't clarified so I hope this is better.

Added a section for crit, but not added to EDV cause my math's not great and it'll take me a bit more to edit the EDV formulae.

Level was supposed to look up the AC on a list, but I dropped that and forgot to remove it. It's gone now.

I'm not sure what you mean about the yes/no part. I'm not very familiar with google sheets. Can you explain it a bit?

I'm also not sure how to add non-crit damage. I'll add that in later, after I math it out, unless someone can recommend a way for me to add it?

Chess Pwn wrote:

Weapon damage shouldn't be grey, as it's calculated from the min and max damage.

Your weapon damage doesn't factor in dice. 1d12 average is 6.5 while 2d6 averages to 7.
You should include a section for crit hit bonus, if I have a +4 to confirm a crit I can't enter that anywhere.
Level doesn't seem to be doing anything, is this supposed to lookup and auto populate the AC?
The yes/no should be a selector of options yes or no.
Your crit chance is off, it should be lower because it needs to factor in the crit confirming.
Your EDV doesn't seem to use the crit multiplier but has hardcoded 2

EDV should be D(H) +C*H(D*crit multiplier) so I'm not sure why you're doing D(H-C)+D*C*(H-C)

Your hit chance is off, remember meets it beats it, so you need to add 21 instead of 20, same for your crit chance, a 15 is 30% so it also needs to be 21 instead of 20 - crit range.
You don't account for not critting damage like sneak attack or precise strike.

Agh, so many mistakes. I'll get to work on it now!

EDIT: On a seperate sheet, because it'll prob take awhile to fix some of those. ><

Sorry to necro this thread. (is it necro-ing if it's a few months old?)
But I made this EDV calculator and I wanted to check if the math is correct(or very very wrong). Anyone willing to give it a few tests?

It should work if you just copy it onto your own google sheets.


Thunder_TBT wrote:
I would go with the Dragonheir Scion fighter archetype. The flight is delayed and gets less feats but there are some nice abilities, especially the arcane strike which would allow extra damage without the arcane pool. If you are concerned with flight, you can get the Animal Totem Tattoo with the dragon totem. It would give you 5 min of flight a day.

How good is that archetype? It does give me some stuff I want but the wings come in so late and it replaces Bravery.

ElterAgo wrote:

I definitely wouldn't say it is too min-maxd. Too well rounded, probably not. But really any martial type with a big weapon and power attack will usually do at least halfway decent.

I would be at least slightly worried about the low will save.

Other than that it really depends upon the campaign, GM, and party.

Some GM's really hate VMC. Not sure why they think it is too powerful. Most people think it is crazy weak and gimps your character. But fighter gets so many bonus feats, that isn't quite so painful. But make sure your GM is ok with it.

Usefulness of wings at 7th? Meh. Don't get me wrong, I like them and use them if I've got them. But if I don't, I usually just have a potion of fly for emergencies. But if you are in a campaign where replacing potions is difficult, then the wings do seem better.

The arcane pool for the enchantment of the various weapons. I get the idea and it isn't bad. But how often do situations where you need an enhancement bonus on you backup weapons actually come up? Depends on the campaign.

I don't remember the stats of the fauchard to know if it is really worth a feat. But personally I rarely think EWP is worth while. But yes, I sometimes take it anyway.

Improved familiar at 9th level? Again it depends, will the GM target the fragile familiar when he buffs you with a wand in combat? Does the party not have anyone sneaky to scout? Is there no caster that cast buff spells on anyone else? The answers to those questions make a difference.

I was hoping the low will save would be covered by Armed Bravery, which converts the bonus from Bravery into a direct will bonus.

I will prob only use this build with a gm that okays it, of course.

I'm not that sure if wings are that useful at lvl7 tbh, but I thought it would be great for covering the weak movement speed. It does save costs for potions though.

The fauchard is the only reach weapon that has a 1d10 damage die and 18-20 crit range. Arcane pool can enchant keen, so that's a 15-20 crit range.

I will probably modify the build further when I use it in a group, but is good as it is now?

nate lange wrote:
Eldritch guardian stacks with mutation warrior... that gets you off to a slower start in some ways (since you lose your first two bonus feats) but your familiar will be more powerful, plus it makes UMD a class skill (which lets you take pragmatic activator instead of dangerously curious for one of your traits) and frees up your arcana.

The familiar wouldn't really be that more powerful since I barely have any combat feats that would take advantage of it gaining my combat feats. Maybe if I was going for a mauler archetype familiar.

I already picked up UMD as a class skill with the Fey Magic Human alternate racial trait, and have pragmatic activator. These are written at the lower part of the spreadsheet.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

If all you want is Arcane Pool, the Warrior Spirit Advanced Weapon Training option (which can be found a ways down the page here), grants most of the advantages of that for one instance of Advanced Weapon Training (ie: one Feat at 5th level or so), freeing up a whole bunch of Feats, and some stat points. It's not quite as good in some ways (it's a Standard Action to do, for example), but it does let you grab Bane whenever you like right out of the box...

With that change, you do lose Armed Bravery at 5th, but you could drop Int to 14, get Cha 13, and have a few Feats free to pick up Improved Bravery and then Inspiring Bravery to add your Bravery bonus to your allies, which is solid, as choices go, and the Cha is a pretty good idea if dabbling in UMD (and allows for dabbling in other social skills, too...especially workable with Advanced Weapon Training). For a bit of added flavor with Mutation Warrior, you could also grab Courage In A Bottle, and devote yourself to Cayden Cailean and do some really cool stuff (fear immunity for you and +4 to +6 bonuses to all your allies saves vs. mind effecting stuff by 10th level with a Sash of the War Champion is very nice). Which seems very appropriate for a well rounded hero type.

Assuming you want to go that route, of course.

Another obvious option if wanting to go with 'dragon knight' and 'good all-around hero' is to go Bloodrager, possibly with the Draconic Bloodline. But that's a bit far off from your base concept.

I don't have the highest opinion of Warrior Spirit. Standard action activation, far too few uses per day, and it shares limited slots with the other Advanced Weapon Trainings. It's been recommended to me from my old thread and I still say no. Plus I think you can only choose 1 weapon ability for it per use.(i think?)

Inspiring Bravery seems situational, it only applies to fear effects right?
I used a trait to get int to UMD, a human alt trait to get UMD as a class skill, and Skill Focus(UMD) so UMD shouldn't be a problem and actually makes me less MAD if I wanna invest into it.

That courage in a bottle item sounds friggin awesome though!

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Urgh, I really wish they'd let me edit my post. Or at least delete it so I can start a new one with better formatting.


Claxon wrote:

To be honest, the variant multiclass with magus probably isn't worth it.

For most of the character's life it will have only 1 arcana. The arcane pool to enhance your weapon is okay, but you should really dedicate yourself to one weapon and shouldn't need to spread out enhancement bonuses. Also, see if you can convince your group to use Automatic Bonus Progression. It allows you to swap your enhancement bonus between weapons as a swift action once per day.

And by getting rid of the magus VMC, you can put points more into str/con and reduce int.

I play online(with strangers usually), and this character is made for future purposes so I'd rather not have to convince the future GM for both VMC AND ABP.

I picked the magus vmc because it adds Arcane Pool and the Arcana gives me access to stuff that is good mechanically and would have required more investment otherwise. (Magus as a class is good, but not what I want atm) I am also aware of Warrior Spirit, but it's got too few uses per day at low lvls and it's a standard action to activate.

I purposely chose to place points in int despite the loss of stre/dex/con. It gives me bonus feats/languages too so it's not really a waste. My build would still work if I didn't put points into int, I'd just need to use the Arcane pool less before the mid lvls. Though I'd need to wait even longer before I can use UMD decently.

Claxon wrote:
Also, by wearing full plate you already have a gauntlet. Now, it isn't spike so slightly less damage but honestly that is a backup plan that hopefully you never need to use. Honestly though, it doesn't make much of a difference either way.

Oh right, I forgot heavy armors come with gauntlets.. Does that mean I can't use a Spiked Gauntlet with heavy armor?

I'd still rather use the spiked version since it doesn't provoke AoOs. I won't need to enchant it with Arcane Pool so it's a free investment anyway.

Claxon wrote:
Oh, and if you're really worried about having access to enhancement on your other weapons, I would suggest you have a wizard/cleric or other caster friend just cast greater magic weapon on your backup weapons. Buy them some pearls of power or something and they'll probably be okay with it.

I'm not really worried about access to enhancements, it's just that the Arcane Pool lets me pick up a weapon and make it decent with minimal investment so I feel it's a valid strategy. As for asking party members, while that is a valid point, it also raises the question on if my future party will have members with access to those spells. Even if they do, I'd rather not have to spend even more money to fund them if I can do it myself.

avr wrote:

I don't see the feats or advanced weapon training?

A fighter with a dab of dragon magic sounds like a bloodrager with the draconic bloodline to me. 'Heroic' strength works better when you don't have to drink something to make it work, and they get many of the things you mention in-class.

I'm not really fond of the rage classes, and Draconic Bloodline abilities are kinda... lame until lvl12 when you get the wings. I agree that "heroic strength" doesn't quite work with drinking a potion. I honestly just picked up Mutation Warrior just so I could get access to wings at lvl6.

There's an additional column for "Feats" and another column for "Advanced Weapon Training" on the spreadsheet. Unless you mean you didn't see the link to my spreadsheet, in which case it's at the top of the post.


I made a similar thread on the reddit awhile ago, but figured I'd get you fine people's opinions too after refining it a bit.
The character idea was to have a sort-of dragon knight themed character. A somewhat well-rounded "hero" type.

Race: Human
Starting Stats: 17(15+2 racial), 12,13,16,10,8 (20 point buy)
Class: Fighter
Archetype: Mutation Warrior
Variant Multiclass: Magus
Build concept:
Uses a Fauchard to attack, Spiked Gauntlet for emergency close range, longbow for long range emergencies.
Heavy Armor for defense.
Flight from Mutagenic Warrior for Dragon Wings.
Arcane Pool enchantments for extra kick, and to save money on enchanting spare weapons. (fancy magic weapon!)
Magus Arcana for familiar. (animal sidekick!)
UMD, utility for self and familiar.
Mutagen for emergency/boss fights. (heroic strength!)

Will it be too weak in combat because I'm spreading out the feats/class features so much?
Inversely, I'm not min-maxing too much right? Feels like I'm squeezing in a lot of class features/abilities.
Any suggestions for feats/advanced weapon training in the empty slots?
Any current features that are probably not worth the trouble?
Any features I should try to get earlier or aren't worth it till later?
Any familiars you feel would fit thematically and can use a wand? Currently considering Lyraken Azata, Faerie Dragon, and Mephit.

Link to my reddit thread if you want to see for some reason.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Lets say that at 1st level, he can enchant a weapon two or three times a day. Thats enough for a normal number of combats per day, and combats do not often last more than a minute. By 8th level, he can do it probably ten times per day, or five times adding a special property. At a certain point, he doesn't need more points because he's not in that many combats. Since he has enough points to enchant his weapon in every combat and there is nothing else to spend points on, there is little or no need to be economical with the points. You might as well ditch the points and just say that he spends an action to make his weapon magic. Or, decrease the points. Or, add additional ways to spend points.

I apologize, I misunderstood the "He gets nearly twice as many points as a magus" part and thought you meant the enhancement bonuses, but I'll elaborate more.

I usually expect 3-5 combat scenarios a day(based on my limited experience with RotRL, CotCT, and WotR), and I expected him to have to enchant multiple weapons per combat around mid-levels to be able to handle multiple kinds of scenarios with usage of different weapons. Every weapon should have a different style, and I intended for them to change weapons to suit the scenario, much like a brawler would change feats to suit scenario.
At lvls 1-4, he can enchant 3-7 times a day, enough for 1 weapon per combat, but it doesn't heavily penalize him to fight with a normal weapon yet. At lvl8+ onwards, he'll start enchanting with stronger weapon abilities and he'll need to pay more to access the stronger abilities. So the higher pool was to compensate for the fact that he enchants 1-3 times per combat, and spends 2-3 points per enchantment in combat at mid-higher lvls. 1 point per lvl might be too much though, maybe try 3/4 per lvl? That wording sounds a bit too weird though. Half level like magus feels a bit too low considering plenty of Magus arcana don't cost arcane pool points and Magus isn't as bad screwed over when they run out. If the Warden is out then he needs an enchanted weapon as a backup, but if the magus runs out, he still has plenty of spells and spell combat and a way to replenish a large amount.

However, someone in another forum has brought to my attention, that the selection for weapon abilities is a little too good though, so I will remove some of the much stronger abilities, and maybe try to reduce the enchantment bonus to a +7/8 instead.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Looks like you still have a lot of work to do. The concept is "he's great with weapons", which seems to make it a narrow focus version of a fighter. The concept could use some refining. Your thread title mentions "nightmare", the name warden implies that it is protecting something, and every class feature has to do with improving weapons. The fighter's name is at last accurate: he has armor training, bravery, and the freedom to customize his arsenal with any feat he qualifies for. Keep on working on this. Broaden the concept, add something new, and don't be afraid to ditch things that don't work.

Erm, I guess I didn't name the thread well, the nightmare part had nothing to do with the actual class just that on the reddit whenever ppl post homebrew classes, ppl usually seem like "sigh, another op/up/weird class ppl try to make work and fail to". And I have mentioned in the notes that Warden doesn't fit the class concept, I'm not fantastic with names. I do agree the concept needs to be broadened though.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


I can usually look at a skill list and sense a theme, but not with this one. It feels fragmented.

Agreed, will work on it.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


What you give is fine, but try to get the wording closer to the that of existing classes. Once you have told the reader that the class gets light armor, there is no use in saying what armors it doesn't get. Its fine to make mention that using a shield interferes with their class abilities, but if the you should at least give it its own sentence, separated by a period.

I coulda sworn there was a class that specifically said"proficient in light armor, but not medium or heavy armor", but my apologies. I have made the adjustments.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


He gets nearly twice as many points as a magus, only one thing to spend the points on, and the enhancement bonus gets up to +10. Like Cyrad said, you should model this more closely on the magus' arcane pool. Your version makes is so the character can absolutely ignore investing in a magic weapon. A magus will want a good magic weapon so that he can get his smaller bonus to count for something. Also, how many times a day do you expect he'll need to enchant his weapons? Being able to use the ability as a swift action at a certain point is good, but I'm not seeing a purpose for the free action. Will he be using his swift action for other abilities at that point? I'm not a fan of the "spirit" name.

I replied to Cyrad on my reasoning for this. I have also mentioned that it was originally a lot more like the Arcane Pool and why it was slowly taken away from that direction. I expect him to need to enchant quite a few times since each enchantment lasts 1 min. And I'm hoping he will spend the extra Spirit Pool points to get the good enchantments as well.

I do agree on the free action part, perhaps I shall just remove it.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Just scrap this. Instead of preventing a weapon master from taking feats to master the use of weapons, implement a class feature that gives him incentive to not take these feats. Rather...

I implemented this feature to prevent people taking a dip into the class for free goodies. The point of it was to prevent them from specializing, they still have access to feats that affect entire groups of weapons, just not specific ones. I do agree it's... troublesome though, maybe there's another way to go around this.

Halek wrote:
I dont want to be mean. It seems like the magus has anything you could want from this class. The mechanics for profiencies are weird and a two weapon figthing one is hosed. Figthers can already pick up any weapon and use it. I am not sure what role this class has. It seems like the magus or a figther fits into its niche.

Almost no one does though. Fighters get bonuses for a few weapon groups, then continue to take feats that enhance a small selection of weapons. They pick up two-handed weapons then power attack away, then take like weapon focus/spec. or maybe Two-weapon fighting and maybe weapon finesse. Or a reach weapons and take feats to take advantage of the reach and AoOs and trip. Each fighting style always has the advantage when you specialize, then aren't as fantastic with the other styles because half your feats aren't as fantastic with it.

Most magus pick like the scimitar and have to stick with it, or maybe whip for the range. They can have other options, but the more common strategies are those.
Making most weapons non-two-handed weapons work takes enough feats that you pretty much specialize or are kinda meh at it.

A warden who wants to do TWF can carry an actual enchanted weapon, they will have to spend more than a non-TWF warden, but that's still better than other classes who have to get 2 enchanted. Only light blade and double weapons usually TWF, so it's still doesn't break flexibility TOO much.

I will admit that I probably coulda just made a fighter archetype for this concept, but I wanted to make a new class. Plus I'm not sure how to solve the "have to enchant many weapons to use them all" issue.

Every class can pick up any weapon and "use it", but can they be good with several at once? (only one I can think of is Slayer actually, nd that's usually no more than 2/3 weapon types)

Cyrad wrote:
It honestly doesn't sound all that interesting of a class. It doesn't really have any unique game mechanics to keep it afloat. It basically feels like a bland fighter that gets more bonus feats and the magus's arcane pool. The concept of a weapon master is intriguing enough for many possibilities.

Yeah.. I was afraid of this, the more I looked at it, the more it seemed... weak as a concept.

Cyrad wrote:
I think giving them proficiency in all weapons and tons of feats at the cost of a penalty to everything and restricting choices is not a good approach. I think a better approach would involve creating a class feature that has "floating feats" that you can swap with the restriction that they must list "Weapon Focus" as a prerequisite. Something like the inquisitor's teamwork feats except the warden can swap all of the bonus feats rather than just the last one.

I had not considered the inquisitor's teamwork feats approach. I never played the class, but it does seem like it'd fit what I'm trying to do.

Cyrad wrote:
For exotic weapons, I think a more fun idea is having a class feature that works like the brawler's martial flexibility except it only lets you take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Unarmed Strike, Throw Anything, and Catch Off-Guard.

Ooh, that's a good idea. I will def think about this a bit more.

Cyrad wrote:
I also have issue with the Spirit Pool class feature. Spirit pool should either work like the magus's arcane pool or work like the magic weapon spell. As is, it's really clunky, overpowered, and takes the fun out of buying magical weapons.

The spirit pool thing is ...yeah... It originally worked like a magus pool, but if weapon enchantments stacked with the pool, it'd be too strong at low-mid lvls. If I weaken the pool to +5 like the arcane pool, then it doesn't solve the issue that the warden would have to have multiple enchanted weapons to be decent at many of them.

The spirit pool was originally made to balance out the fact that most pure martial classes get innate class bonuses to att/dmg rolls like a fighter's weapon training. Swashbucklers get swashbuckler weapon training, warpriests get swift action buffs, magus can burst like crazy with spellstrike/combat, and barbarian's rage gives nice fat bonuses to str.

I included a wider selection of weapon abilities than the arcane pool because magus gets spells to do damage whereas the Warden just attacks with fancy weapons. The warden also has to pay for anything beyond basic weaker enchantments too. You pay an extra point to access good +2 enchantments like bane, and another extra point for the nice +3/4. and you get 1 point per lvl to your spirit pool(+charisma mod) with no way to regain them other than when it refreshes daily. Using the feat to gain more pool points pays the feat cost which other classes wouldn't have.

They do save quite a bit of money by not paying for weapons, but casters don't really pay for weapons either(i'm not trying to compare this to anything like a caster, just giving an example where there are classes that also pay a bit less for their special stuff). They might be able to afford much better armor, but start off with weaker armor selection and have no base armor bonuses.

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Link to the Warden

Purpose/Goal/What I want out of the class:
-To create a martial that is good with all weapons(not just one or two, or a few groups like fighter)
-To create a class that can pick up any weapon at any time and be able to use it immediately.

What it is not intended to do:
-Out-damage a class that specializes in 1 or a few types of weaponry, like fighter/barbarian.
-Out-flex a super flexible martial class, like the Brawler.
-Be so inferior at damage and flexibility that it's worse than a class that is good at one.

Notes/Comments on class features:
Base stats:
Full bab progression should be expected of a full martial class.
Fortitude saves are important for all frontline fighters.
Class skills hold most of the important but not out of skills for any martial fighter. I know fighters normally get 2 + int, but I feel that is far too low for ANY class, so I've set it at 4 + int.

Weapon/Armor Proficiency:
They are masters of every weapon, so I feel that should naturally include exotic weapons as well. Exotic proficiency is given at lvl5 instead of 1 to prevent it being a "dip to get free proficiency issue. Light armor to make it less defensive than a fighter, but I am considering adding medium armor since they get no other defensive skills.

Spirit Pool:
The main purpose of this ability was to hopefully solve the issue of having to enchant too many weapons as I intended the class to be able to pick up any weapon and be able to use it right away. It also gives the class some extra flexibility in terms of weapon bonuses and such. Before you go: "Omg, he gets up to a +10 enhancement bonus, SO OP". The spirit pool's enchantment do not stack with a normal magic weapon's enchantments, it replaces it. So comparing it with any martial who keeps their weapon up to date, its enchantment bonus is about on par with their's. In addition, they get no other bonuses to attack and damage rolls like fighter training or barbarian rage. Also I feel it pushes the element of 'Weapons Master" rather than most martial's version of "my whole body is my weapon".

Crippling Under-specialization:
The ability had 2 purposes: To prevent ppl playing the class to take feats and specialize in specific weapons, and to reduce the chance of it being a "dip some levels for free abilities so I can munchkin super easy". I am also considering blocking feats that benefit only specific weapon groups instead of just feats that benefit single weapon types, but that might be too much.

Weapon Master:
This gives 1 feat per weapon category at lvl2, 6, 10, 14, 18. That's a total of 12 feats 5 times, which essentially amounts to 60 feats. HOWEVER, they only get access to 5 of those feats at a time at lvl18. What feat they get access to depends on the weapon they carry. It's a bit like a combination of ranger combat styles and brawler flexibility. The feats that each weapon group has access to is supposed to be based on common feats that users of that weapon would take, like power attack for 2-handed weapons and TWF for light weapons. Unfortunately there's a lot of feats so I'm still sorting through a lot of them.

Spiritual Strengthening:
Allows you to add magic weapon properties with spirit pool just like the Magus's Arcane Pool. They get a MUCH wider variety of them though. There are a few that are almost never really worth it to permanently enchant your weapon with one because they're very specific, and I thought that adding them would give them a good chance to shine. At lvl 4, it's mostly +1 enchantments, but they get access to +2-3 later on.

Exotic Weapon proficiency:
Proficiency with all exotic weapons at a price of -1 to attack rolls. This comes in late enough that it should hopefully prevent dipping just for this alone.

Skilled Weapon Master:
Stronger feats to choose from, this is seperated to prevent lvl2s getting high lvl stuff, and they can still select older ones as well.
Improvised Weapon Proficiency Less penalties when using improvised weapons, but can't access weapon master class feature feats with them. Also penalty for using exotic weapons is gone.

Stronger Spirit:
More weapon properties to choose from, at a price. Works like magus arcana that give more arcane pool choice. Pay one more point to access a larger variety.

Experienced Weapon Master:
Same as Skilled Weapon master.

Flexible Strengthening:
This allows you to change ongoing spirit pool enchants for free, BUT the duration of the ability doesn't reset, and you must still pay for access to stronger weapon enchantments.

Strongest Spirit:
Same as Stronger Spirit.

Perfect Weapon Master:
I tried not to make this as strong in the same way that a fighter's would be, but I think an increase to crit threat range/multiplier ain't too bad.

Further Thoughts/Notes/Considerations:
-A martial with both weak armor, low reflex, and low will seems... suicidal. I was considering maybe giving a bonus to certain weapon groups or maybe just bump up the class's Will saves? Yes/no/suggestions?
-For a martial, would the attack/damage of the class be too low to make the class useless compared to most other martials? It doesn't need to be top tier, just decent enough to not be like "no point bringing him"
-I worry weapon master is too restrictive per weapon group. My previous idea was to have the Warden pick the feats per weapon group daily instead. Is that TOO flexible/op?
-I need a LOT of help for the feat selection for weapon master. I'm trying not to let the different weapon feats overlap too much and give them distinctive flavor. Maybe i should combine some of the groups instead?
-Would a bonus for sunder/disarm maneuvers be fitting for a guy who knows weapons inside and out?
-In a follow up to previous note, would it be good to let them replenish spirit pool points if they manage to sunder/disarm an enemy?
-I'm not sure if the class theme feels.... complete? It feels more like a combo of 2-3 class features and everything else builds on that.
-I am VERY worried that the wording for class features is either not clear enough or too convoluted/wordy. If there's any issue with this, it's the first thing that must be fixed. Tell me immediately.
-Warden doesn't really fit the theme of the class. Suggestions for names? I was thinking Ace might be fitting since it's kinda arrogant to call yourself an ace, which fits a class that claims to be a master of all weapons.

SO, thoughts/criticism/suggestions/feedback from you guys? Feel free to tell me it's completely s$*+/OP/UP, but please also explain why. And if possible, say which parts(or combination of parts) are s&~+/OP/UP. Sorry for double wall of texts. Thanks and I look forward to your replies.

P.S. Hope this is the right section.

Martial focus and martial versatility isn't quite what I'm looking for. Spear dancing spiral doesn't quite fit either, but it might work.

Weapon focus/spec is pretty common for most weapon types, so they don't quite fit the theme I'm looking for.(Power attack is too, but is more heavily associated with two-handed weapons due to the bonus)

Style feats do fit close weapons very well, particularly with Ascetic style.
Piranha strike for close weapons is interesting, I was so focused on the weapon's theme that I forget they're usually light weapons.
I never even heard of false opening but it seems like a good feat for thrown weapons.


Feats that are decent but usually get heavy feat taxes are fine as well.
For example Whirlwind Attack isn't TERRIBLE(maybe not super awesome, but not TERRIBLE), but has heavy feat taxes that make it not worth it.
P.S. Would anyone recommend any particular weapon group ti fit Whirlwind Attack's theme? Maybe heavy blade and polearms?

deuxhero wrote:
Improved X - Weapons that have the X property

I wonder what would the Improved Reach feat do xD

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about Bludgeoner.
Power Attack is related to many diff categories, yeah.

Keep the feats coming!

I'm looking for feats that are often used for, related to, or associated with weapons of these weapon groups.
Axes, Light Blades, Heavy Blades, Bow, Close, Crossbows, Double, Flails & Whips, Hammers, Polearms, Thrown

For example: Two-Weapon fighting is often used with Light Blades, and Improved Trip with Polearms

The related feats could be anything like style feats, combat maneuver feats, and even normal combat feats like power attack(which are most commonly seen with, but are not limited to, 2-handed weapons).

Wasn't sure if this was the right section, hope it's right!

Johnnycat93 wrote:
fel_horfrost wrote:
If you have sneak attack from an archtype (snake bite brawler) Then I'd recommend accurate strike for always on sneak attack damage otherwise I'd recommend against it.
That's not how sneak attack works.

I think he means Prescient Attack, which allows me to ignore the target's dex bonus and trigger Sneak Attack.

Surprised no one seems to vote for Accurate Strike, figured touch attacks were really good. Enduring Blade is a good point though.

Brawler will have 14 Int. He prob wont go for familiar as it wont fit his character, though I do know how awesome familiars can be. I'm trying not to choose arcana that are too Pool intensive, but Reflection IS pretty good.

Just to clarify, to use the Bane Blade arcana, I have to spend at least 2 arcane pool points right? (since the arcana says "1 additional point")

Pool strike sounds like an interesting choice for when I can't charge.(or if I need to do elemental damage for some reason.)

Magus VMC doesn't say I cant use the Extra Arcana. So I'd probably use that to grab a good arcana at lvl9.

I'm starting to think I make terrible posts...
I thought the last one took so long to get replies cause it was too wordy but I made this one short and it got fewer replies.

Using VMC for it.
Currently thinking of these:
Accurate Strike
Hasted Assault
Prescient Attack
Flamboyant Arcana

Any others that would be good?

94. (metal only) The metal is shiny and dark, and when you stare at it, you can see the stars shining in it.

95. (metal only) When it is hit or is hit by other metal objects, it rings out a almost hypnotic ringing sound.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

You're giving up two implements with the Battle Host, not one.

Regular Occultist gets their 5th implement at level 10, Battle host gets their 3rd. I don't know about your games, but the bulk of mine usually take place before level 10. Your magic item skill and object reading skills also get weaker. I agree that the circles and outsider contact stuff is pretty much just for flavor and the other abilities the Battle Host gets are neat.

The question you just have to consider is "how much am I going to miss by having only 2 schools magic available for the first 10 levels." With the party you're in, that might be an issue.

Ah, forgot that regular occultist gets 2 more before lvl10.

I have never played a game past lv8 so I can't judge. I've played 3 PF campaigns so far. One's at lvl8, another at 4, and the last at 2. I don't even know what lvl most campaigns end at.
I realize Battle Host loses quite a bit of utility, but honestly I never intended to build this character for party utility. Don't get me wrong, I will offer whatever aid I can provide, but I don't want to give up what I want for my character for it either.
Based on my inexperienced view, I feel like even with normal Occultist, its party utility is much more limited than other 6th level casters anyway. Spells on untaken Implements don't even count as being on their spell list.
And honestly speaking if I was told to provide more party support I'd have just played another class. I mean, there are classes with 3/4 BAB and 9th level spells. That seems weird to me. Even if their spell selection is weaker, they'd still have much stronger spells and have more spells slots at the end of the day. They even still get great strong class features.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I would still prefer to stick with the Battle Host.

NoTongue wrote:

The Magus and Occultist weapon enhancement bonuses do not stack, despite what another poster has said they are both listed as enhancement bonuses which do not stack.

If your going with melee I would defintely recommend sticking with Battle Host, having more implements gives you more options (more spells known) but Battle Host grants you a straight up power increase in feats and abilities and you cast the same amount of spells and have the same amount of points to put in items.

What if the enhancement bonuses were different though? Like I took basic enhancement from Arcane Pool and special abilities from Legacy weapon? I've pretty much chosen wizard vmc alrdy, but it's still good to know for future reference.

And yes, I agree that Battle Host is very nice for melee. It comes at a cost but it's acceptable for what I want for my character.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Are you tied to the Battle Host archetype? Not that it's a bad one, but from what I've seen its primary value is either in talking the GM into letting you start with something really expensive as your panoply bond (Mithral full plate!) or if you're an archer and you desperately need more feats.

From your description you don't seem to be getting a ton out of it, so you might just consider the vanilla occultist? It's still plenty strong in combat.

I mostly took it cause it looked cool. The Heroic splendor bonus to stats is nice, and I wanted the Spirit warrior to be my character's mentor coming to help him in battle. Mechanically speaking, the loss of an Implement isn't too bad for me, the only real concern was the party's need for a clw user, but it should be manageable. I also didn't care much about the circle stuff, so that wasn't too bad either.

The bonus combat feats can also be nice to offset the loss of feats to VMC. Without them, I'd have to take power attack at lvl 9! (or 5, if I choose to take craft magic arms/armor later)

TLDR: Picked it cause the penalties weren't too bad and the abilities/limitations fit what I wanted from the character anyway. Which is a Magic Martial Blacksmith.

Quentin Coldwater wrote:
**Many helpful things**

Hmm yeah, lead blade is def not worth it. 2D6 increases to 3D6, which isn't much unless I expect the fight to drag on. I saw the table wrong and thought it went up to 4D8 for some reason, my bad. I'm still at a bit of a toss up between Divination and Abjuration for the 2nd Implement, but I can just play the first level and see how it goes I guess.

Thank you for all the advice! I def missed out a few things about combat strategy and such.

Zombie Boots wrote:
Do levels of Psychometrist (Vigilante) stack? Might be a way to snag some extra Implements quickly if they do - No Resonant Powers with Psychometrist thou, hampers your spell casting as well.

Hmm.. I don't see why they wouldn't stack, but I'll pass. I think dipping a lvl in psychometrist loses more things than it gains. (well, xept skills and reflex/will saves)

Quentin Coldwater wrote:
** Helpful stuff**

Yeah, I think I'm gonna take conjuration out, the more I look at it, the more I think that pulling wand of clw duty isn't worth me losing an entire implement for at least 8 lvls. I'd rather just buy tonnes of potions to hand out to everyone. I really wish they didn't have that limitation about the spells not being my list without the school. It makes sense theme-wise, but Occultist has such a limited list anyway.. I guess it's normally made up by the UMD bonus, xept I lost those for Battle Host.

I have pretty much confirmed on Transmutation, Divination, and Abjuration as my first 3 schools. The remaining 2 will be decided as per need when I reach those lvls.

The tip on spells is something I didn't consider. Taking lead blade for my 1st lvl transmutation spell probably isn't the best idea then...
Any recommendations?

Someone finally answered me! ;n;
I probably shoulda made the post smaller haha.

Slight update on party composition:
Rogue is switching to a Silver Champion Paladin. I think they lose access to their normal spells.
Also, I think the card caster wants to change to an oracle, but it was just a passing mention so I don't know if he was serious or not.

Malkier1023 wrote:
**Helpful Words**

Oo, I didn't notice Air gave flight. Does "Fly at will" still require standard action to activate though? I'll most likely be taking Mind over Gravity to fly anyway,... but then Featherfall at will is nice too... hmm... so many choices.. I'm def taking Wiz VMC now though. Magus is probably better offensively(kinda thematically for me too), but Wizard has more utility.

I am definitely going to have Skill Focus(Spellcraft) eventually.

Oh yeah, the passive save bonus from Abjuration is good too, hm... I guess if my party picks up a player who can heal/use CLW wands then I'll pick up Abjuration. I was also considering Divination for passive perception and vision bonuses but solid defense is important.

avr wrote:
**Moar Helpful Words**

I'm not sure I'll be able to carry the group spell wise, Battle Host Occultist only gets 2 Implements(Read:schools of magic) until lvl 10(THEN 3), and I only get 1 spell per spell level per Implement. So at lvl 2 I'll have access to... 2 Lv0, Lv1, spells. And I have very few spells slots too, 3 per day for lvl1 spells. Whatever little utility Magus has is probably still better than mine haha.

Also, someone on another forum mentioned the Wizard(Arcane Crafter VMC), which might help with the feat load. Lvl3 - Valet Familiar, lvl7 - Item Creation Feat, lvl11 - Cantrip, Lvl15 - Discovery:Arcane Builder, lvl19 - Metamagic Mastery. Think that'll be enough?
Of those, at least 3 seem really worth it.

Is Weapon Focus by itself worth it? If it worked with any weapon or if there was other feats that required weapon focus, I might consider it, but +1 attack to a single weapon type seems pretty.... weak.

Pretty sure they don't stack THAT way. You get low light vision to within 60ft of the character, and darkvision to within 60ft of the same character.

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Making this character for a Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign. It's not for PFS. He'll be a Battle Host Occultist who will invest into crafting magic weapons and armors(with MAYBE wondrous items)
Think magic blacksmith who uses "item magic". Sadly not investing in ACTUAL craft skills since it'd be impossible for me to make anything before the campaign ends. Will focus on the enchanting of magic gear.

Class: Battle Host Occultist
Race: Human (Dual Talented)
Traits: 2 Traits(at least 1 campaign), drawbacks might be allowed.
Stats: 20 point buy
Str 20 (+2 from racial) (+2 from Transmutation Implement)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 16 (+2 from racial)
Wis 10
Cha 8

Feats and Class Features
Grabbing Racial Heritage: Elf(moar mental focus) at 1st lvl.
Using a Gauntlet for my Panoply Bond so I can still smack stuff with a greatsword/bardiche. Not choosing armor because then I'd be locked into it forever. A buckler might work even if I don't get the shield bonus.
Going with Transmutation and Conjuration Implements for the first 10 lvls, maybe change Conjuration for Abjuration instead if someone else gets CLW, but currently none. Gonna take all the standard awesome Transmutation focus powers, but I might skip Alter Size just because it's pretty weak in the first few lvls, maybe grab it after lvl10. Sudden Speed will be great for countering Heavy Armor speed penalty at low lvls.

Taking Power Attack at lvl4, Craft Magic Arms and Armor at lvl5, but the rest are mostly free or not sure yet.
Am currently leaving the feats for VMC open if I choose to take one.
Remaining empty slots: 3 feats, and another 3 combat-only feats.

What I want:
To be decent at melee, and to be able to craft well(and have a Valet familiar to help). I wish to focus more on crafting weapons and armor, but wondrous items have a wide range so I might pick it up eventually.

General combat strategy:
First turn, buff up(with legacy weapon), second turn smack away. Should have good options at dealing with situations with flying, shields, and some more minor abilities.

What I need help with:
Need opinions on VMC for this guy. Currently thinking of Magus(Arcane Pool, Familiar Arcana, Spellstrike), or Wizard(Familiar,School Powers, Discovery). Or are there better ones? Or maybe just save myself those 5 feats? Any recommendations to help my character be more effective?

Occultist lacks so many spells, which will penalize it for crafting a bit, but if I max out spellcraft it should be okay right?

Any recommendations for Implements? I only get 5, and only Transmuation is an absolute must have, so the rest are still under consideration though Abjuration(defense), Divination(utility), Conjuration(utility), and Illusion(defense) seem pretty good.

Other related questions:
1. This probably wont apply to me anyway cause I wont have any evocation spells, but can you use spellstrike with a two handed weapon? I wont have spell combat so ignore that one.

2. Does the enhancement from Arcane Pool from magus and Legacy Weapon Stack? They both say they stack with the weapon's enchantments, but what about other similar abilities?

Arcane Pool wrote:

These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.

Legacy Weapon wrote:
Enhancement bonuses gained by this ability stack with those of the weapon, to a maximum of +5.

Once they reach a total enhancement cost of +10, they'll cap, but that wont be too early.

Thank you for the help and sorry for the very long post. Just felt the need to show details to help with the answers. Hope it wasn't too ... messy.

EDIT: Party is not confirmed, but currently in "concept stage" is Card Caster Magus, Knife Master Rogue, Zen Archer Monk, and a Cavalier or Swashbuckler. Starting to think I should make something sturdier haha.

Companion Figurine wrote:

Prerequisites: Handle Animal 1 rank, own a figurine of wondrous power.

Benefit: You may select the creature summoned by your figurine of wondrous power as an animal companion or familiar, or as appropriate. The figurine has the standard abilities of a familiar or animal companion of its type, plus additional abilities related to its figurine type (see below). The main advantage of this is that if your familiar or companion is killed in creature form, it merely reverts to statue form and can be used again later.

Playing a Battle Host Occultist blacksmith in my next game and thought it'd be awesome if he could get a familiar to help him craft. Flavor-wise it woulda been really cool to have a little statue that comes to life and helps him craft. I was thinking it coulda been inherited from his late master, but doesn't work until I spend the time(and money, the figurine cost) to fix it up. Oh, anyway....

Does the Companion Figurine give me a familiar if my class does not give me access to one?

The wording says "You may select" which sounds like it's only giving additional familiar choices(if you can alrdy access the feature), but then the feat itself doesn't require the character to alrdy be able to access the animal companion or familiar feature. I looked around on here and reddit and ppl seem to be on both sides of the matter.

If that's a no... is there any other way to get a valet familiar without dipping, Eldritch Heritage, or Iron Will/Familiar Bond/Improved Familiar Bond?

Dipping is always blegh unless theres a very good reason for it, and my character is alrdy very MAD without pumping CHA(which it's currently minorly dumping). Iron Will/Familiar Bond/Improved Familiar Bond tightens my feat selection, but it is doable... except I get the familiar before it can access the Valet archetype, so does that mean I have to get the familiar replaced to get one with the Valet archetype, or can I just say it's a normal familiar(without some features) and then just suddenly gets them later?

I could talk to my GM about it, yes, but he's been really cool so far and I don't want him to have to bend the rules(if there are any on this) for me.

TLDR; Questions highlighted in BOLD, also this is not for PFS.

Ridiculon wrote:

It definitely does not last forever, otherwise it would be pretty useless to use it 3 times a day.

Other than that you're right, the text doesn't give a duration. I would use the duration of the spell required to make the tattoo, blur, which is 1 min/lvl. That comes out to 5 minutes at the minimum level required to create the tattoo, or 3 minutes at the minimum caster level for the spell.

That's a good baseline, I'll work it out with my gm , but the baseline you provided is good to start with.

Also, is "The bearer can use this ability three times per day." referring to both abilities or only the second one? I thought it only referred to the second one, but now that I think about it it sounds too good for the first one to be usable all day without cost.

I heard that it didn't used to contain the text that says it has to be worn for 24 hours before its ability could be used. So people would buy several and change them out inbetween battles. A lot of the magic item guides(from what few I see) haven't updated in awhile.

Now it's probably best used for emergencies, so it's slightly less valuable, but it's still quite cheap, and if you have nothing better in that slot...

My GM recently gave me permission to get the Swirling Smoke magic Tattoo cause I felt it'd add my character's theme of hunting in the dark(kinda). After looking at it carefully though, I realized it's actually pretty strong(for 12.5kgp) and want some clarification on the rules for it.

Swirling Smoke Tattoo wrote:

If the tattoo is visible when the bearer is hit by a melee or ranged attack or when the bearer fails a Reflex save, the wearer can activate the tattoo to shroud herself in mist as an immediate action. This imposes a 20% miss chance on attacks made against the bearer.
On a failed Reflex save, it grants the ability to reroll the Reflex save and gain a +4 bonus. The bearer can use this ability three times per day.

I'm more confused with the first paragraph. I understand that if an enemy hits me with a ranged attack, I can activate it as an immediate action.

I assume it means that it doesn't provide the 20% miss chance for the attack that hit me since if it did then the attack might not actually hit me. So that means it only works for attacks after the first that hit me.(correct me if any of this paragraph is wrong though)

But then, how long does the 20% miss chance last? For only that turn? Until end of the round? End of Combat? Forever?

My gm is pretty nice so I don't him to feel like I cheated him by asking for something really OP. I haven't bought the item yet. (I could afford it, but I had other things to buy as well. My next chance will be when we're in a big city) So I hope I can get a solid answer before I get enough coin again.

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Asks if he can do it. Gets told no. Ignores what people say and does it anyway. What.

Sorry if this isn't helping, I just don't understand why someone would ask a question to clarify rules then deny what everyone else says anyway.

This isn't even a "maybe sorta could be taken that way". The conductive text explicitly states that it channels supernatural or spell-like abilities. Weapon enchantments are NOT supernatural or spell-like abilities.

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