Consider the NO resounding. :)
Okay, as somebody who made a monster that broke the game, I have a proposal for allowing monsters that don't break the game. Sharptalon is cool, and I expect that Choon was thinking of gnolls and ogres as monsters, not will o' wisps and owbs.
Here are my proposed rules:
CR/HD
You pay the higher of CR or HD to play a monster. You don't get bonus hit dice out of this. Nobody gets more HD than anyone else.
Caps
These are limits to keep people playing the same game. These limits apply to permanent/constant effects. They include all modifications, including items. These would also apply to non-monster builds. If you are over the limits, you can voluntarily reduce to the limit. If the game advances in level, these will be raised.
Stats: no final stat over 26
Caster level: no caster level over 6
DR: No DR over 10
SR: No SR over 18
AC: No AC over 28
Saves: At least one save under +20
Spell-like abilities: Max 3rd level in most classes. (i.e. spells that are lower level in one class list are counted as the level other classes get it.)
Stats
In order to figure out what point buy you get, Add up all of the base monster's stat modifiers. (Or add up all of their stats and subratct 60). Your point buy value on the chart is as follows. Even with 0 you can adjust your stats. If you have -5 point buy, you must reduce your stats to play.
Total ..... Point Buy
-6-0 ...... 30 Point Buy
0-6 ....... 25 Point Buy
7-9 ....... 20 Point Buy
10-12 ... 15 Point Buy
13-15 ... 10 Point Buy
16-18 ... 5 Point Buy
19-21 ... 0 Point Buy
22-24 ... -5 Point Buy
25+ not available
Characters need at least 4 intelligence and understanding of common to be playable.
Feats
Monsters only get feats marked with a (b) as bonus feats. The other feats must still be purchased out of your normal feat allowance. You don't have to take traditional monster feats.
I win buttons
Anything that requires special resources to even have a chance is forbidden. For example, if you can't been seen without special senses, that's an I win button. It doesn't matter if it's natural invisibility, deeper darkness with see in darkness, or hide in plain sight with a high stealth check. Being immune to all weapon damage or all magic is another issue (sorry swarms and golems).
Many of these will be combinations. Fast healing 5 isn't that bad, but when you add it to DR 10, that's pretty hard to get around.
When in doubt, ask.
I think 'no monsters' is a lot more simple. Back in 3.5 they went to great lengths to balance monsters as PCs (with a dedicated book even) and I don't think they ever really succeeded.
It's a rough job as a GM to foresee all the possible implications of what monster abilities can do.
Are 3pp races still an option?
Yes, no monsters is simple. "Humans only" is even simpler. But it's not as flavorful.
With monsters there's lots of fiddly bits that are hard to balance. It pretty much requires a GM with a hammer. I think my rules helped to mostly automate that hammer.
Ya, I will stick with my halfling with 2 basic psionic classes :/
Even with that I am not the most efficient, a human would have been mechanically superior in every way. Despite this I have confidence that the build is "strong enough" to at least keep up :)
Edit: my thinking on this "unique/unusual" build is that no GM would allow a build with so many moving parts, variables and bookkeeping, not that this build/creature is so powerful that no GM would allow it in another game
Lol sorry, didn't mean to break the game, I thought all that had been accounted for.
Me too. I accidentally stepped in an ankle deep mud puddle. :P
For what it's worth the creature I did end up going with was the quickling
I already made an app for it choom, did you wanna take a quick look at it and see if it's acceptable?
It's an aegis/warder on one side and a stalker on the side with quickling.
Lol yeah Choom, I don't think Paizo knows what they are doing with these cr's.
That siege owlbear with that brutal slayer class on the other side would have been insane. So insane that you should probably use it as a boss lol.
Now, I know you said no monster races, but would the tanimin race from Rite Publishing's In The Company Of Dragons be acceptable? I plan on going with the feykin alternate which locks it in at tiny size. Will be unchained rogue on one side and the racial paragon class on the other.
Lol sorry, didn't mean to break the game, I thought all that had been accounted for.
Come on Angels, be honest, your Quickling, tell us Whats its max AC Angels, whats its max attack per round
I had a look see and I think your maxing at, Supernatural speed, DR5/cold + max AC32 or 34 + TAC 24! + 20% Miss chance always on. 4 attacks, +16/+11/+11/+7 to Attacks + Inevitable strike + Shatter + at will +2d6/3d6 sneak attack almost always, two weapons + two weapon defiance + Poison use, invis when you stand still. Ref save of 16
Now I am not raining on your build, but don't you think that's a bit much at level 6, even with gestalt?
Panic here, This may be my replacement PC, still thinking on what would be best, She is an Elan.
|
Yeah there are reasons why I wear Cheese restraining shackles all the time. Removal of them leads to madness.
*twists over and pats self on the back*
Though, to my surprise, I actually managed to make a viable rogue that wasn't really dependent on sneak attack =)
Since I get the impression that this is a rather experimental game, my characters created tend to be rather high on the Cheese level. If you want me to tone it down, say so. Don't want to make life difficult for you.
I'm considering switching characters every encounter. For SCIENCE!
Lol sorry, didn't mean to break the game, I thought all that had been accounted for.Come on Angels, be honest, your Quickling, tell us Whats its max AC Angels, whats its max attack per round
I had a look see and I think your maxing at, Supernatural speed, DR5/cold + max AC32 or 34 + TAC 24! + 20% Miss chance always on. 4 attacks, +16/+11/+11/+7 to Attacks + Inevitable strike + Shatter + at will +2d6/3d6 sneak attack almost always, two weapons + two weapon defiance + Poison use, invis when you stand still. Ref save of 16
Now I am not raining on your build, but don't you think that's a bit much at level 6, even with gestalt?
Kinda over stepping your boundaries and overstating my characters abilities there guy. Where are you even getting at will powers because that creature has none.
Where were you when someone decided to play as a will-o-wisp which is what my basis for even picking a creature in the first place was?
I wonder what panic thinks about my first character....well this one that I am posting with lol.
That's just a regular race and I am pretty sure it is actually stronger given that it has actual class features in place of racial abilities.
Even though I did want to be like sanik and go fast. I can just use this one, monsters aren't big deal, I just feel bad for ruining it for everyone else because a few people have to cry over things.
Edit: Also you guys talking about dr and fast healing being hard to get around, hrm I think I might have to get with choom to show you guys how easy it is to build monsters at the appropriate cr that can make stuff like that a non-factor.
Actually. Thats a brilliant idea.
We should build monsters that we then give to Choon to throw at us!
We build something up, give it to Choon, he modifies it (stronger, weaker, left..er >_> ).
He will probably get like 15 submissions to choose from but it could be fun, and it would probably ramp up the lethality a bit.
Remember, this thing came from the other city state, so a monster horror from space probably wont fit >_>
@Panic. I took a quick look at your build (cuz i was curious) and it looks neat. How did you get metamorphosis? its an egoist only spell, and imp metamorphosis requires it.
Awww. I just came here to propose the idea of a wood giant who used a cannon as a two-handed firearm.
It was going to be awesome. (if you google 'what is the manliest weapon', this pops up as the sixth image)
In all seriousness though, monsters are probably better than at least warrior or expert type class levels. Many of them get better point buy too, and the extra HD all but assures that you get more HP than the rest of the party.
Edit: would you entertain the idea of me playing an Ogre (race)? I know you said 20rp and under, and the ogre is 23 RP, but I figured I'd ask anyway. I really want to make this thing work.
If yes, does this bit of the rules:
*Inappropriately Sized Firearms: You cannot make optimum use of a firearm that is not properly sized for you. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between your size and the size of the firearm. If you are not proficient with the firearm, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it, the exception being siege firearms and Large or larger creatures. In most cases, a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm, but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way because of its awkwardness.
Mean that I could reload it as a two-handed firearm as well, as opposed to ? I'd say yes, since it says use, not shoot, but it's not neccesarily all that clear.
Finally, how much does a cannon weigh? My best estimate would be a couple thousand pounds.
Unfortunately, a cannon is not a Firearm. It's a siege weapon. However, I'll take a look at sized up muskets because they may not be much different than small cannons.
Actually. Thats a brilliant idea.
We should build monsters that we then give to Choon to throw at us!
We build something up, give it to Choon, he modifies it (stronger, weaker, left..er >_> ).
He will probably get like 15 submissions to choose from but it could be fun, and it would probably ramp up the lethality a bit.
Remember, this thing came from the other city state, so a monster horror from space probably wont fit >_>@Panic. I took a quick look at your build (cuz i was curious) and it looks neat. How did you get metamorphosis? its an egoist only spell, and imp metamorphosis requires it.
I actually kinda like this.
The point of the Monsters is to challenge. Lethally challenge, yes, but they should never be bulletproof. Every boss has a weakness. And they should never kill too quickly such that their weakness never becomes clear. So, with that in mind, go for it. I cant promise that I'll use your monstrosity, but it might be an enjoyable exercise.
As to PC's and power. This is a difficult area, but Olaf is right in insisting that I will adjudicate. This first fight has opened my eyes a bit.
Heroes, like monsters, should not be bulletproof. You are heroes, and every true hero has a weakness. Even Superman. That being said, I don't want Superman showing up. If you cover all your bases and layer defences and stack offence... where's the fun. Your numbers get big, yes, but where's the creativity? Getting big numbers takes a certain skill, and I respect that skill. At the same time, I have opened the Entire Multiclass Archetypes List to your perusal. there are some flavor filled classes in there!
Anyway, I rant. Today is pretty full for me, so I will try to update gameplay this evening and go over the proposed builds and asked for classes (like that 3pp one, sorry it's taking me so long to get to that).
Oh. Really? Well, that puts a kink in things, doesn't it?
OH, ok. No worries then. We can give it a spin.
I'm trying to strike a balance between crazy builds (like that one) and my sanity so if he's too much I'll let you know that he got eaten by a herd of particularly angry bunnies on the way back to camp or something. ;)
Kinda over stepping your boundaries and overstating my characters abilities there guy. Where are you even getting at will powers because that creature has none. Where were you when someone decided to play as a will-o-wisp which is what my basis for even picking a creature in the first place was?
Angels I did step over the mark, Im sorry and I apologize 100%, that was not my intent.
Also I should have send a PM and not posted on this thread. That also I am sorry about.
And Yes you are right it has no AT spell likes. So yes I am wrong there.
However as for Where were you when someone decided to play as a will-o-wisp All I can say is I was very much in the same mind as the GM when this started. I think the GM has explained why he feels he needs to close the door on monster PCs. This also seems to have been echoed by a few players as well. Me included, included to the point I am making my PC an NPC and building a none monster race PC to replace her. I can really say more than that on this point. My PC and others did seem to brake the game, Hand up here for that, but the PG plastered her so all is well.
Actually. Thats a brilliant idea.
We should build monsters that we then give to Choon to throw at us!
We build something up, give it to Choon, he modifies it (stronger, weaker, left..er >_> ).
He will probably get like 15 submissions to choose from but it could be fun, and it would probably ramp up the lethality a bit.
Remember, this thing came from the other city state, so a monster horror from space probably wont fit >_>
I agree that would be way cool.
@Panic. I took a quick look at your build (cuz i was curious) and it looks neat. How did you get metamorphosis? its an egoist only spell, and imp metamorphosis requires it.
Thats with the feat of
Expanded Knowledge
You learn another power.
Prerequisites: Manifester level 3rd.
Benefit: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list, even if that power is already on your class’s power list.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn one new power at any level up to one less than the highest-level power you can manifest.
I took Minor Metamorphosis, not Metamorphosis the bigger power.
Metamorphosis, Minor
Discipline psychometabolism
Level cryptic 1, egoist 1, psion/wilder 2
MANIFESTING
Display Material
Manifesting Time 1 standard action
EFFECT
Range Personal
Target You
Duration 1 min/level
Power Points cryptic 1, egoist 1, psion/wilder 3
DESCRIPTION
You channel your psionic power, snapping bones and twisting flesh, transforming yourself into a new shape or form. You can take the form of any creature of the same size as yourself, but this is a purely cosmetic change, your abilities, powers or stats do not change beyond the options selected below. This grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks.
If you choose to imitate an existing person, you gain an additional +2 circumstance bonus to Disguise checks to convince people that you are that person. If you choose to take on an intimidating, horrifying, or otherwise imposing form, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks.
In addition, you get one choice from either the Enhancement Menu A or Abilities Menu A.
Enhancement Menu A
+2 enhancement bonus to Strength
+2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity
+2 enhancement bonus to Constitution
Increase your size by one size category (+2 size bonus to Strength, -2 size penalty to Dexterity, appropriate size modifiers to AC, CMB, attack rolls, etc). This effect does not stack with other effects that increase your size.
Decrease your size by one size category (+2 size bonus to Dexterity, -2 size penalty to Strength, appropriate size modifiers to AC, CMB, attack rolls, etc). This effect does not stack with other effects that decrease your size.
Increase your base land speed by 10 feet.
Abilities Menu A
You gain 5 temporary hit points.
You gain the Cleave feat.
You gain the Improved Trip feat.
You gain a +1 natural armor bonus.
You gain a natural slam/claw/bite (pick one) attack that deals 1d8 damage if Medium (1d10 if Large).
You gain Resistance 5 against one of these energy types: Cold, Acid, Fire, Electricity.
You gain a swim speed of 20 feet.
You gain a climb speed of 20 feet.
You gain a burrow speed of 15 feet.
Augment For every 2 power points you spend, you gain one choice from Enhancement Menu A and one choice from Abilities Menu A. You may not choose the same option twice.
...All of this talk about monster PC's *has* been getting me thinking about running my Reverse Dungeon Crawl campaign here on the Paizo boards. XD
Where we play the monsters who try to get rid of intrepid adventurers that invade our domains?
Exactly. I ran a game of it at college that was pretty amusing, and I'd been thinking it would be fun to run here.
...but I shouldn't derail this thread, so I'll quit talking about it here. Maybe I'll start an interest check when a couple of the games I'm in now finish.
@Olaf I know it kind of defeats the purpose (I want to fire a cannon!) but there is another way you can go about it.
A double hackbut scales from 2d12 to 6d6 to 8d6.
If you have a large creature firing a large double-hackbut it is similar to him firing a cannon (but you get 2 shots!) and has a lot less issues with the rules, but can still gets the feeling across.
I have also tried hard to create a creature that could pull that off and the closest I got was a high level Synthesist Summoner/Gunslinger. He had the eidolon built up to resemble a tank with a front mounted, huge sized hackbut that he called his boomstick :)
It worked out quite well, and he could exit the tank (unsummon it) when he wanted to do more covert ops like missions. Sadly the game never got off the ground :(
well new PCs all set, waiting on the end of this one.
Unfortunately, templates aren't allowed. Reflavored Strix are though. :)
I think I will Re-start the recruitment thread today or tomorrow with a revised rule set up front. It's to bad you can't edit posts after an hour
Panic here, this is the other PC i have been working on, Really wanted to try out the Warlock in Gestalt.