Is it possible to dual-wield pepperbox pistols?

[Ravingdork]

I have a gunslinger player in my game who dual-wields pepperbox pistols to devastating effect. Several people have come forward in an unrelated thread to tell me that this shouldn't be possible, as you need two hands to turn the barrels for the next shot (thus precluding having two hands available to dual-wield). It's even been likened to wielding a pair of longbows.

I for one don't think it follows. Pepperboxes are clearly listed as one-handed weapons and, unlike two-handed weapons like bows, follow the rules for one-handed weapons.

My player in question uses a glove of storing to free up one of his hands so he can rotate the barrel. This of course, created an off-topic online discussion about "metaphysical hands" and other such nonsense which, even if verified, I don't personally believe is applicable to this particular case.

So my question is thus: Is it possible to dual-wield one-handed pepperbox pistols? Or does the need for a free hand to rotate the barrel somehow interfere with that? If it does, is there a build or combo out there that makes it possible?

I thought we were already playing according to the RAW, but that clearly has been brought into question.

[Andy Brown]

Rotating a barrel is a free action requiring a free hand, storing or retrieving an item from the glove is a free action, so if you're OK with that many free actions in a round I don't see why there's a major problem.
The player's also spent 10000 for the glove and 3000 + masterwork + any enchantments on each gun, and has a 10% chance of misfire on each shot (assuming he's not using alchemical cartridges or anything to reduce the misfire).

Is everybody having fun?

[Talonhawke]

Well without delving into "Hands" I would allow it if there is someway to free up a hand during the round or with access to an extra hand or hand like appendage.

[Ravingdork]

Andy Brown wrote:

Is everybody having fun?

Absolutely. I don't intend on changing much in the game as a result; this is mostly just for my own intellectual curiosity.

[TriOmegaZero]

Ravingdork wrote:

I for one don't think it follows. Pepperboxes are clearly listed as one-handed weapons and, unlike two-handed weapons like bows, follow the rules for one-handed weapons.

And the rules for reloading firearms say you need to have a free hand to reload one-handed weapons.

Loading a Firearm wrote:

You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm. Loading siege firearms requires both hands, and one hand usually manipulates a large ramrod (which can be wielded as a club in combat).

Unless they can free up a hand for both weapons, they should not be dual-wielding pepperboxes.

[Mr. Bonkers]

You could also enchant both pepperbox pistols with Shadowshooting from Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Shadows. It is a +1 enchant that automatically loads a ranged projectile weapon with illusionary ammunition after firing it. You are also still able to load it with regular ammunition, in case that it matters (antimagic field and stuff).

It does come with the downside that the target of your shots gets a Will save versus the first attack with the gun each round, and if succesfull it only deals minimum damage (not necessarily a problem if the static damage is high)

[Ravingdork]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

I for one don't think it follows. Pepperboxes are clearly listed as one-handed weapons and, unlike two-handed weapons like bows, follow the rules for one-handed weapons.

And the rules for reloading firearms say you need to have a free hand to reload one-handed weapons.

Loading a Firearm wrote:

You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm. Loading siege firearms requires both hands, and one hand usually manipulates a large ramrod (which can be wielded as a club in combat).

Unless they can free up a hand for both weapons, they should not be dual-wielding pepperboxes.

We hadn't even made it to the reloading part of the discussion yet. In any case, due to his class abilities, reloading is a free action, and the glove of storing seems to resolve the issue with needing a free hand.

The only rule that I can find that might limit it, is the one that says the GM can arbitrarily limit the number of one's free actions in a round.

[TriOmegaZero]

Ravingdork wrote:

We hadn't even made it to the reloading part of the discussion yet. In any case, due to his class abilities, reloading is a free action, and the glove of storing seems to resolve the issue with needing a free hand.

The only rule that I can find that might limit it, is the one that says the GM can arbitrarily limit the number of one's free actions in a round.

So you're letting them swap weapons between hands as a free action then? I suppose that might make it work.

[Melkiador]

It can be argued that you never have a free hand when using the two weapon fighting action, because that action occupies your main hand and off hand. It's the same reason you can't main hand a greatsword and offhand a shield spike.

[Ravingdork]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

We hadn't even made it to the reloading part of the discussion yet. In any case, due to his class abilities, reloading is a free action, and the glove of storing seems to resolve the issue with needing a free hand.

The only rule that I can find that might limit it, is the one that says the GM can arbitrarily limit the number of one's free actions in a round.

So you're letting them swap weapons between hands as a free action then? I suppose that might make it work.

You mean switching a weapon from one hand to the other or changing the number of hands used on a weapon? Of course. It's been long established that, that is a free action.

Melkiador wrote:

It can be argued that you never have a free hand when using the two weapon fighting action, because that action occupies your main hand and off hand. It's the same reason you can't main hand a greatsword and offhand a shield spike.

Sure it could, but such arguments make knife throwers even more unplayable than they already are (since they can't dual wield knives and quick-draw at the same time for lack of metaphysical hands). I really don't think that's the developers' intent.

[Melkiador]

How does my interpretation effect knife throwers? Quick draw doesn't require a "free hand".

[Ravingdork]

So what would they be drawing the knife with pray tell? Seems to me that allowing someone to draw out a weapon without any free hands is going to open up an entirely different--and larger--can of worms.

[mourge40k]

Ravingdork wrote:

So what would they be drawing the knife with pray tell?

Grit, gumption, and teeth?

[Melkiador]

Ravingdork wrote:

So what would they be drawing the knife with pray tell? Seems to me that allowing someone to draw out a weapon without any free hands is going to open up an entirely different--and larger--can of worms.

An empty hand is not the same as a free hand. If I am unarmed striking with an empty hand that hand isn't free while I'm attacking with it. Two weapon fighting is a special action that occupies both of your hands so neither is "free".

[Ravingdork]

It's a good thing people don't generally try to draw knives and punch people at the same time. They typically punch someone and then draw the knife, or draw the knife, and then punch someone, both of which are explicitly allowed by the rules.

[Melkiador]

Ravingdork wrote:

It's a good thing people don't generally try to draw knives and punch people at the same time. They typically punch someone and then draw the knife, or draw the knife, and then punch someone, both of which are explicitly allowed by the rules.

Two weapon fighting is a special attack action. It's an exception to the rules, per its FAQ regarding armor spikes.

[Protoman]

If the character has gun twirling feat could do it by having only one gun drawn at a time and still benefit from TWF.

[Ravingdork]

Melkiador wrote:

Two weapon fighting is a special attack action. It's an exception to the rules, per its FAQ regarding armor spikes.

One must be wary of citing FAQ implications in that manner. It's been made clear by the developers that they only cover what is explicitly spelled out in their entries, in this case, armor spikes and great swords.

[Kazaan]

A Longsword is also a one-handed weapon and wielding it with two hands doesn't make it a two-handed weapon. Would you say that using a second hand to wield your Longsword (or other one-handed weapon) takes up attack economy and prevents you from double-dipping to also TWF? The correct answer would be, "yes, yes I would." The same reasoning applies to the Pepperbox. It is a one-handed firearm, but using a second hand to turn the crank is "baked in" so to speak which makes it equivalent to a Longsword that you can only wield using two hands, but remains a one-handed weapon for interaction with other rules elements (eg. HP, feats/abilities that demand use of a 2-h weapon, etc). As such, using a Pepperbox requires both hands worth of attack economy.

[_Ozy_]

? Using a 2nd hand isn't 'baked in' to use a Pepperbox pistol, only to 'reload' it to take another shot. Your analogy doesn't work.

[Carla the Profane]

I would say no, because of the following text in the two-weapon fighting description in the core rules:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

Technically, he's not wielding a second weapon in his off-hand when he is using that hand to spin the barrel of the pepperbox, let alone reload. He would maybe be able to two-weapon fight for one attack, after which he'd have to drop his offhand gun into his glove of storing in order to spin the barrel on his pistol.

In other words, he's not using two-weapon fighting, he's getting an extra attack routine by switching hands.

This obviously only applies when there is the need to reload, or use a pepperbox pistol's larger capacity for ammunition.

EDIT: Also, it's not clear wether you need to be still wielding said off-hand weapon during the whole full attack action or not; the rules imply that in order to be able to use two weapons in a full attack you need to be able to wield both, or just one.

[Torbyne]

Mr. Bonkers wrote:

You could also enchant both pepperbox pistols with Shadowshooting from Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Shadows. It is a +1 enchant that automatically loads a ranged projectile weapon with illusionary ammunition after firing it. You are also still able to load it with regular ammunition, in case that it matters (antimagic field and stuff).

It does come with the downside that the target of your shots gets a Will save versus the first attack with the gun each round, and if succesfull it only deals minimum damage (not necessarily a problem if the static damage is high)

Oh no... i didnt know about that enchantment... entirely off topic but what does this do to the old Minotaur double crossbow? A level 6 Bolt Ace dropping 6-8 bolts per round with dex to damage on them all?

[ArcGygas]

I do believe that, as per RAW, it does work. Putting the guns into the gloves is a free action, and each turn of the barrel is also a free action. If one were so inclined, yes, you could limit the number of free actions, and as long as everyone is having fun, what does it matter?

However, with that said, that is a lot of free actions. Nocking an arrow is a non-action according to the CRB and is just simply part of the attack. While I don't know what level this gunslinger is, the number of free actions can get fairly high. Switching the guns is a free action, but since you have to switch back and forth, that's one to two free actions. Each turn of the barrel, RAW, is a free action, meaning that if he is full attacking, that's two free actions more per iterative attack. So, we'll say 11th level, he gets three shots with each, for a total of 8 free actions (assuming, in this case, that neither gun was drawn and therefore had to be pulled from storage).

Now, if he had Rapid Shot and Haste, that's two more free actions, one for each bonus attack. But, for now, we'll stick with our base of eight for reasons that will quickly become obvious.

A pepperbox, RAW, can fire six shots before it needs to be reloaded. That gives our theoretical gunslinger two rounds of full attacks before needing to reload. And this is where I think limiting free actions might come in, because if he wants to fully reload his two pepperboxes, that's TWELVE free actions, meaning that either on his third turn before he attacks or after he fully attacks on the second round, that's a full twenty free actions.

That is a *lot* of free actions. So, expect table variance, but that is my observations. The only limit is the GMs adjucations of free actions. Otherwise, yeah, I agree, he'said good to go.

[thejeff]

As I understand the interaction between pistols and a glove of storing, you're limited on what you can do with the off hand.

Starting with both pistols loaded and in hand, you can fire each once, put the off hand one into the glove, spin the pepperbox until you've emptied it or used up your main hand attacks, but then you're stuck.

You can bring back the off hand pistol, but you can't store the main hand one to rotate the off hand pistol.

[Johnnycat93]

Gun Twirling wrote:

You can spin and juggle a small firearm, making it difficult to predict where you will shoot.

Prerequisite(s): Amateur Gunslinger feat or grit class feature, Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus.

Benefit(s): You can spend 1 grit point to make a feint attempt using a one-handed firearm for which you have Weapon Focus (instead of a melee weapon). The target of this feint must be within 30 feet of you and be able to see you.

If you have the Quick Draw feat, you can holster a one-handed firearm as a free action as long as you have at least 1 grit point.

Feat tax, yay!

[Dragonchess Player]

All you need is a "free hand" (or hand-like appendage): A tiefling with the Prehensile Tail alternate racial trait, a vanara, or dipping two levels in alchemist to pick up the Tentacle or Vestigial Arm discovery. Or if you can use a free action/swift action to switch weapons: the Gun Twirling feat, Quick Draw and a scabbard of many blades (if your GM lets you store one-handed firearms in it), adding the called weapon ability (to retrieve it after dropping it), using gauntlets of the weaponmaster, etc.

[Ravingdork]

Seems the community is pretty split on the issue. Maybe this is worth a FAQ?

[Ravingdork]

ArcGygas wrote:

Nocking an arrow is a non-action according to the CRB and is just simply part of the attack.

Drawing an arrow, however, is a free action according to the same book. A GM can't really limit free actions without absolutely destroying martial ranged builds.

[Jurassic Pratt]

I believe I've found a feat that should solve everyone's issues with needing a free hand for reloading and/or turning the barrel of the pepperbox.

Link

Obviously the GM can still limit the number of free actions per turn, but per RAW this should allow it to work.

[Cavall]

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I believe I've found a feat that should solve everyone's issues with needing a free hand for reloading and/or turning the barrel of the pepperbox.

Link

Yes it was mentioned before, above you.

And for what it's worth I like it. I don't think of dazzling display as a feat tax, at all. So it's fun and in a way pretty cool to imagine a guy "fanning" his guy, then putting it away, spinning around and drawing from the other holster and raining down even more.

Very xeno gears.

I like the feat as an option. I honestly hate the gloves of storing as an option.

[Carla the Profane]

FAQ'd for better understanding.

[Torbyne]

For a home game i would totally allow a Gunslinger to roll the barrells down an arm to rotate barrels and they fire off one weapon and then switch arms for the other gun. Doesnt seem to break anything to me. As for going strictly by the rules, the glove of storing or the twirling feat would give you enough meta-physical non attacking hands to pull it off.

[Baelmar]

Add Unseen Servant (x/times a day or continuous) to an item...Had to do this with my Duelist after he married/was cursed by a witch. Baneful Polymorphed into a black cat unless I wore my wedding ring and since cats don't have thumbs...lol

[nicholas storm]

It is my opinion that you can't swap hands of weapons while two weapon fighting. Otherwise, you could say:

I equip a +5 kukri in my right hand and a non-magical kukri in my left hand. I do my attack with main hand. Swap weapons, then do my attack with off hand.

[Cavall]

nicholas storm wrote:

It is my opinion that you can't swap hands of weapons while two weapon fighting. Otherwise, you could say:

I equip a +5 kukri in my right hand and a non-magical kukri in my left hand. I do my attack with main hand. Swap weapons, then do my attack with off hand.

That's a very good point.

[Zwordsman]

Moved a bit from the original topic but. on that original idea

I haven't an issue with it. seems valid to me as long as the gm or players don't harsh on the free actions per round rule 0. Plenty of investment on the ability and high risk.

[Ferious Thune]

Even if you don't allow switching weapons between hands during a TWF full-attack (something that I think is purely a GMs call right now EDIT: Note, I don't mean switching which weapon is main or off hand, just which physical hand its held in for purposes of the Glove of Storing), you should be able to get two rounds of full-attacks off with pepperboxes. Unless there's a ruling on what order you have to take the off-hand attacks in relation to your main hand attacks that I'm unaware of, you can mix and match them as long as each hand descends in BAB.

Shots remaining in weapon in {}s.

Round 1:

Begin with both guns in hand.
Fire Main Hand Primary Shot.{5}
Fire Off Hand Primary Shot.{5}
Free action to put Off Hand weapon in Gloves.
Free action to rotate firing chamber of Main Hand pepperbox.
Fire Main Hand Iterative Shot. {4}
Free Action to rotate firing chamber of Main Hand pepperbox.

Round 2:

Begin with Main Hand pepperbox in hand.
Fire Main Hand Primary Shot {3}
Fire Main Hand Iterative Shot {2}
Free action drop Main Hand pepperbox.
Free action retrieve Off Hand pepperbox from Gloves.
Free action rotate Off Hand pepperbox firing chamber.
Fire Off Hand pepperbox Primary Shot. {4}
Free action to rotate Off Hand pepperbox firing chamber.

Round 3:

Begin with one pepperbox in hand. This becomes Main Hand pepperbox.
Fire Main Hand Primary Shot. {3}
Free action rotate Main Hand pepperbox firing chamber.
Fire Main Hand Iterative Shot. {2}
Free action rotate Main Hand pepperbox firing chamber.
Free action store Main Hand pepperbox in Gloves.
If you have Quickdraw, Quickdraw a third pepperbox.
Fire Off Hand Primary Shot. {5}
Free action rotate Off Hand pepperbox firing chamber.

Round 4:

Begin with one pepperbox in hand. This becomes Main Hand pepperbox.
Fire Main Hand Primary Shot. {4}
Free action rotate Main Hand pepperbox firing chamber.
Fire Main Hand Iterative Shot. {3}
Free action rotate Main Hand pepperbox firing chamber.
Free action retrieve Off Hand pepperbox from Gloves.
Fire Off Hand Primary Shot. {1}
Free action store Off Hand pepperbox in gloves.

Round 5:

Begin with one pepperbox in hand. This becomes Main Hand pepperbox.
Fire Main Hand Primary Shot. {2}
Free action rotate Main Hand pepperbox firing chamber.
Fire Main Hand Iterative Shot. {1}
Free action rotate Main Hand pepperbox firing chamber.
Free action drop Main Hand pepperbox.
Free action retrieve Off Hand pepperbox from Gloves.
Free action rotate Off Hand pepperbox firing chamber.
Fire Off Hand Primary Shot. {0}
Free action drop Off Hand pepperbox in gloves.

If you have two more pepperboxes, Quickdraw them both, then start over. It gets expensive buying all those 3,000GP guns, but at the point you can afford the Gloves, it's not that big of an issue.

If you're allowed to swap what hand weapons are in before you start firing, you could stretch it out more, as you wouldn't need to drop them as soon and could instead alternate which one you store in the gloves..

You could also probably replace at least one of the three with a normal gun and reload instead of rotating the chamber.

This would start to be an issue when you get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, unless you can store the weapon in either hand in the Gloves. Or you could just take the Gun Twirling feat mentioned earlier and holster instead of drop.

[_Ozy_]

nicholas storm wrote:

It is my opinion that you can't swap hands of weapons while two weapon fighting. Otherwise, you could say:

I equip a +5 kukri in my right hand and a non-magical kukri in my left hand. I do my attack with main hand. Swap weapons, then do my attack with off hand.

You can swap weapons all you want, but that doesn't change which weapon is used for the off-hand attack:

Quote:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

Nothing says you can't switch that off-hand weapon to your other hand, but you still will be attacking with that weapon, and still only get 1/2 your str bonus.

So again, the analogy doesn't fit the pepperbox scenario.

[LuniasM]

What exactly stops you from making all your attacks with your main hand weapon, stowing it as a free action, then making all your attacks with your offhand weapon? Hands of Effort clarified 2-handed weapons and armor spike shenanigans but that seemingly doesn't apply here since it doesn't require 2 hands to "wield", just to reload. If Hands of Effort prevents this it would also prevent TWF with crossbows, which fit the same description (1-handed and needs a free hand to reload) but are specifically called out as taking additional penalties while using TWF. Seems pretty clear to me.

[nicholas storm]

LuniasM wrote:

What exactly stops you from making all your attacks with your main hand weapon, stowing it as a free action, then making all your attacks with your offhand weapon? Hands of Effort clarified 2-handed weapons and armor spike shenanigans but that seemingly doesn't apply here since it doesn't require 2 hands to "wield", just to reload. If Hands of Effort prevents this it would also prevent TWF with crossbows, which fit the same description (1-handed and needs a free hand to reload) but are specifically called out as taking additional penalties while using TWF. Seems pretty clear to me.

Core Rulebook pg 187:

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack
bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in
order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two
weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you
are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part
of the weapon first.

I interpret that paragraph as you would need to do all your high BAB attacks, then BAB-5, then BAB-10, etc.

[Cavall]

Even if you could do it, a pepperbox requires a free hand before each shot to load the next one. So the issue remains.

[cuatroespada]

Ravingdork wrote:

ArcGygas wrote:

Nocking an arrow is a non-action according to the CRB and is just simply part of the attack.

Drawing an arrow, however, is a free action according to the same book. A GM can't really limit free actions without absolutely destroying martial ranged builds.

i'm not sure the 6 or 7 free actions for drawing arrows (a little over an arrow a second with haste) is quite comparable.

[Ravingdork]

You can't imagine a heroic gunslinger spinning the barrel along one arm while firing at the same time?

[thejeff]

Ravingdork wrote:

You can't imagine a heroic gunslinger spinning the barrel along one arm while firing at the same time?

I can imagine lots of things.

The rules for a pepperbox however say: "The entire barrel housing can be quickly rotated by hand between shots (a free action requiring one free hand)"

If you want to house rule it, go ahead.

[Cavall]

Ravingdork wrote:

You can't imagine a heroic gunslinger spinning the barrel along one arm while firing at the same time?

I can. I could even imagine a feat for it. However that isn't the issue, because an arm isn't a free hand.

If you wanted a feat to this, it's pretty reasonable. But currently there isn't a feat for it and that still doesn't address the issue of needing a hand free as per the firearm requirements for this weapon.

[_Ozy_]

Cavall wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

You can't imagine a heroic gunslinger spinning the barrel along one arm while firing at the same time?

I can. I could even imagine a feat for it. However that isn't the issue, because an arm isn't a free hand.

If you wanted a feat to this, it's pretty reasonable. But currently there isn't a feat for it and that still doesn't address the issue of needing a hand free as per the firearm requirements for this weapon.

The gloves of storing provide a free hand, as a free action.

[cuatroespada]

_Ozy_ wrote:

Cavall wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

You can't imagine a heroic gunslinger spinning the barrel along one arm while firing at the same time?

I can. I could even imagine a feat for it. However that isn't the issue, because an arm isn't a free hand.

If you wanted a feat to this, it's pretty reasonable. But currently there isn't a feat for it and that still doesn't address the issue of needing a hand free as per the firearm requirements for this weapon.

The gloves of storing provide a free hand, as a free action.

and that is when the free actions get ridiculous as you can only have one glove of storing per RAW resulting in a lot of gun juggling.

each iterative becomes "shoot, shoot, store, spin, retrieve, juggle (x2), store, spin, retrieve." that's 8 free actions per iterative attack.

[Saethori]

Just to clarify, the chain of events being proposed here, from how I see it:
>Gunslinger fires both pistols at his target, one shot from each.
>With a command word, he causes the pistol in his off hand to shrink into the gloves.
>He manipulates his main hand pistol's barrel chamber, in order to move to the next bullet in the assembly.
>He snaps his fingers, causing the shrunken pistol to return to normal in his off hand.
>He utters the command word again, or perhaps a slightly different one, to cause the pistol in his main hand to shrink into the globe.
>He uses his now free main hand to manipulate the barrel assembly of the off hand pistol, to ready the next bullet for it.
>He snaps his fingers again, causing his main hand firearm to reappear.
>Since he's only used free actions to reload, he can continue with his full attack, attacking with his pistols some more. Depending on Base Attack Bonus, presence of Haste effects, and number of TWF feats, he might do this reloading process for a total of eight shots, issuing a command word and snapping his fingers for each and every single one.
>This all occurs in the span of six seconds, during which time he can also move five feet and issue some quick verbal directions to an ally.

...forgive me for saying, but I get the feeling this oversteps the "reasonable amount of free actions" by quite a bit.

[_Ozy_]

I don't see why. You spin the main hand pepperbox pistol to get all of your main hand iteratives, free action produce the other offhand pistol from the glove of storing and take your offhand shot.