Oh, noes...I like what it does with fireballs and the like! It makes blaster damage actually viable if you build for it. But those still have caps.
Combining a booster effect like that with no cap on overall damage is just asking for trouble, as was posted. A spell perfection build using the 7d6 rule would be
CL 30 for an arcanist with all the CL boosters and Spell Perfect = 6 globes! 7d6 each with your Intensify spell rule.
42d6 base.
Orc blood for 42d6+42.
Intense Spells for +10, 42d6+52.
Empower for +21d6+26, avg ~100
Maximize for 304.
404 points of damage. You winz the damage contest! And it's force, so no resistances, against touch AC, and hits incorps. Except for SR, and please, you're casting at CL 30, what more could you want?
So all this hullabaloo because you can't pickup the increased damage reduction rage powers to stack with the invulnerable rager's DR?
Now, not that my experience represents the majority of play but most people I saw in play never even used it. Rage Powers were too good to bother "wasting" on increased damage reduction, in my experience.
I don't really see this as being a problem at all. I mean sure, you could make yourself pretty resilient, but you also missed out on a lot better rage powers if you focused on that,.
I guess I just don't get the whole hullabaloo. The Invulnerable Rager is still as great as it ever was, in my opinion. Sure you can't stack as much DR on it now, but I never did anyways...so I offer a shrug about the whole thing.
That's been my experience too, Claxon. I've never seen that rage power taken by.. anyone ever.
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Friends, we are in crisis. We have come to a point where Invulnerable Rager is no longer the archetype that every Barbarian player MUST take.
Surely, a sign of the end.
True on the Increased Damage Reduction. Even 3.5e had Roll With It, which increased any Damage Reduction by 2, not 1.
Just kinda strange.
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Okay, he runs 200' up right next to you. If you retreat so you can attack, he gets the AoO.
Because a monk can't 5ft step away and then use Dimension Door? It's not hard.
And I'm not going Schroedinger options - a higher level version of my current monk build could do all of the things I've mentioned without any prep and do them indefinitely with some booze. (Though I suppose the GM could use the optional rules for alcohol poisoning and also not rule that turning it into ki burns it off.)
And I never said that the barbarian wouldn't see the monk after he attacked and sometimes get an action after the surprise round, but the most the barb could do is attack with a bow. If he tried to close to melee, so long as there was cover between them he couldn't pounce and the monk would get away via Dimension Door with minimal damage.
A DEX monk would have higher stealth, higher perception, and far higher mobility, and those three things would allow him to consistently decide where the combats happen. (In a team combat this is an entirely different story.)
All this talk of comparing Invulnerable Rager in Unchained vs pre-Unchained Barbarian, and then Barbarian vs Monk, but nobody brought up Unchained Monk yet?
That's been my experience too, Claxon. I've never seen that rage power taken by.. anyone ever.
I mean, I snagged the extra DR for Badoomdoom but that was more as a thought experiment than anything else. If I were to actually play him I'd absolutely not bother with sinking rage powers into DR and pick up something more exciting instead.
Okay, he runs 200' up right next to you. If you retreat so you can attack, he gets the AoO.Because a monk can't 5ft step away and then use Dimension Door? It's not hard.
And I'm not going Schroedinger options - a higher level version of my current monk build could do all of the things I've mentioned without any prep and do them indefinitely with some booze. (Though I suppose the GM could use the optional rules for alcohol poisoning and also not rule that turning it into ki burns it off.)
And I never said that the barbarian wouldn't see the monk after he attacked and sometimes get an action after the surprise round, but the most the barb could do is attack with a bow. If he tried to close to melee, so long as there was cover between them he couldn't pounce and the monk would get away via Dimension Door with minimal damage.
A DEX monk would have higher stealth, higher perception, and far higher mobility, and those three things would allow him to consistently decide where the combats happen. (In a team combat this is an entirely different story.)
And the barb can't have a reach weapon with a spiked gauntlet? It's not hard.
And the barb can sit behind cover and ignore your rays as easily as you sit behind cover and ignore his charge. Again, it's not hard. And if the cover is 'between' them, he could JUMP OVER IT, as jumping is considered part of normal movement. Or, since cover interrupts line of sight, he could just stealth and get away. You're at range, you're not going to see him.
Or, at that level, just fly over your cover and attack you from vertical, if need be. And you couldn't get away with Dimension Door without eating at least one AoO. It also doesn't work if he uses one of his attacks to Strength Surge to trip you, or grapple/pin you.
You're throwing out 'simple tactics' to beat him, and ignoring the fact that equally simple tactics foil what you are trying to do.
And...isn't there a feat or something that lets you use booze to get rage rounds? (Not Liquid Courage)
Maybe he's got a celestial totem and Boots of the Earth instead, and while he sits behind cover he's healing 10 hp/rd or something.
Maybe he's got Energy Resistance fire and all your scorching rays avg 5 hp dmg or something, if they hit, and he just runs away from you. Or around a corner.
maybe he's got smash from the air and simply bats your scorching rays aside. Ah,best choice, here.
Maybe he activates Guarded Stance and Rolling Dodge, has +10 to touch AC, and simply avoids your Scorching Rays.
HE does have options, outside just the invulnerable rager build, and he certainly doesn't have to play dumb.
{. . .}
I could instead just focus on Battering Blast, hit you with 6(1.5(15D6+15))+10, with no Save, is Force damage (means can't be reduced in any way), and can Quicken for yet another set of the same; with this stuff combined, I would be deal over 500 points of damage on average: {. . .}How do you get that much damage? Battering Blast caps out a 5d6, and even Intensify Spell won't get it past 10d6, and Empower Spell gets it to 16d6, and then Maximize Spell gets it to 90, while Bloodline Shenanigans might get it to 105 or 120. If you Quicken an identical one, that is still at most 240 in 1 round.
Hmmm, it appears I miscalculated the CL scale of the spell, and that does reduce the damage output significantly. Let me break it down as to how it would be by the Endgame, with using authentic math and options.
Magical Lineage + Wayang Spellhunter/Metamagic Master, and 2 Metamagic Rods of my Choice (probably Maximize and Quicken because reasons), and a Gloves of Storing to switch between the two during spellcasts. Usually start with the Maximize Rod, with the Quicken stored.
20 Base CL + 2 Potent Magic + 6 Spell Perfection(Spell Specialization and Mage's Tattoo) + 1 Orange Prism Ioun Stone = CL 29. Looks like I'm just shy of that CL 30 for the 6 blasts; drat. There has to be something I'm missing...Oh well, let's roll with it.
First cast is an Intensified Empowered Maximized [Heightened] Battering Blast, which results in 5(0.5(3D6+3)+49)+10, or an average of 285 points of damage. With Spell Perfection, this can be cast as anywhere from a 4th level (subtracting the Empowered through traits, and using a Rod for the Maximize, though that is optional) to a 9th level spell (leaving everything alone), so I could do that all day long.
Second cast is a Quickened Intensified Empowered Maximized [Heightened] Battering Blast, which results in the same exact damage calculation as before [5(0.5(3D6+3)+49)+10]. Similar to above, this can be cast as a 4th level spell (Empowered subtracted through Traits, Maximized applied through Spell Perfection, Quickened applied to Rod, but also optional), up to a 9th level spell (using either a Quickened or Maximized Rod, and leaving some or all of the other metamagics alone), meaning I can do this fairly reliably too.
Of course, the Quickened spells can only handle so much of this power, due to the rod's limitation of 3 spells/day, but even if we sacrifice Empowered to maintain the spell levels, we're still left with 5(49)+10, or 255 points of damage.
This means, over the course of a single round, I am doing ON AVERAGE, 570 points of damage (or even as low as 510 if we're trying to conserve power by just simply letting Empowered go), with the ability to adjust spell level costs based on the needs of Heighten spell and Spell Perfection, meaning I can be practically constant.
570 points of damage equates to a full-on dead Tarrasque, and 510 points of damage would leave the Tarrasque hanging by a limb (and most everything else would be dead).
This damage is not reduced on a successful saving throw, and can bypass most forms of Spell Resistance without trying (CL 29 + 8 Spell Penetration feats = Minimum SR 38+; The highest SR creatures have = 12 + HD, highest would be ~37).
DC = 10 Base + 13 Intelligence + ~3 Spell Level + 2 Spell Focus = DC 28. Again, I feel like this can be higher, but I don't know how...That's okay, I don't really need a saving throw for it anyway.
There are very few raw counters to this, most of them involve level 8+ spells, one involves cheating a Magic Item, and another involves sacrificing your own spells to counterspell. Clearly, this is probably the most destructive blast spell in the game, however, there is a major flaw with its application; it requires a Touch Attack with each Blast for it to work.
Having 1/2 BAB and only maybe a +5 Dexterity, tops, leaves you with only +15 to hit, not factoring in other penalties (and very few bonuses to implement as well without sacrificing other options). Creatures with really high Dexterity, Deflection, Dodge, etc., will be able to shrug this off without so much as a hitch; very large creatures, like Elder Dragons, the Tarrasque and co., will have hardly any Touch AC, making them prime targets for this manner of spell.
If there was a spellcaster who could optimize the Battering Blast and had even 3/4 BAB, it'd be extremely effective.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-forcefangs
^ that would stop one barrage, I think.
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So, I didn't really see a lot of useful points coming up in the barbarian/monk debate up thread so I decided to pull out 2 relevant builds I had, both moderately optimized just to see how they perform.
Relevant stats:
AC 26
Bonus to hit +30
Average damage 37
All stats assuming raging
AC 47
Bonus to hit +26
Average Damage 30 physical, 3.5 acid
All stats assume pre-buffing (barkskin), and using ki for extra AC (12 ki points)
Now, for simplicity's sake, I just assumed a straight up contest of strength, no trick, no surprise round, just two combatants who know they're about to fight.
So, let's say, barbarian wins initiative, which isn't likely because the monk has a much better initiative, but barbarian pounces, average full attack does 21.645 damage. He then initiates Come and get Me. The monk flurry of blows with pummeling style, taking 4 AoOs from the barbarian, taking 35.52 damage, or 8.88 damage on average per attack. His flurry though does 156 physical damage (after DR 6/-) and 18.025 acid damage. Barbarian now has 2 hit points left, Monk has 67. Monk will last another round, but the barbarian won't.
And these aren't 2 builds I created to sway results, these are both reasonably optimized builds I've put together with the intention of playing. The Monk is actually based of a PFS Monk I'm currently playing that has caused a minor GM freak out because he single handedly wrecked an encounter with Barbarians. And it's not nearly as optimized as either of these two builds.
So, in order to win this fight, the barbarian needs to do something, like wait until the monk is low on ki, or sneak up on him, or even wait til he's already hurt. But even then, monk has abundant step, so barbarian's got one round to finish him off before he can escape.
Edit - Forgot the penalty for fighting defensively, monk should do 120 physical and 13 acid with it. I was thinking the barbarian was doing particularly bad, so I re-checked the math. And barbarian would do 33.3 damage first round because the monk doesn't have his bonus yet. Barbarian still isn't doing nearly as well as the monk though.
I'm curious as to these builds. Maybe make a new thread, as to not derail this one, and give more statblocks for each? Cause the Barb seems low on it's stats, but they might be quite average for a good barb. I just can't verify with only a total.
I'm still wondering what the point of the hypothetical duel is, though.
Or how a prebuffing, AC stacking monk being able to beat a weak Barbarian demonstrates... anything related to this thread or any other thread at all.
Barkskin, like Mage Armor, has a long enough duration that most adventurers will always have it up.
{. . .}
I could instead just focus on Battering Blast, hit you with 6(1.5(15D6+15))+10, with no Save, is Force damage (means can't be reduced in any way), and can Quicken for yet another set of the same; with this stuff combined, I would be deal over 500 points of damage on average: {. . .}How do you get that much damage? Battering Blast caps out a 5d6, and even Intensify Spell won't get it past 10d6, and Empower Spell gets it to 16d6, and then Maximize Spell gets it to 90, while Bloodline Shenanigans might get it to 105 or 120. If you Quicken an identical one, that is still at most 240 in 1 round.
Hmmm, it appears I miscalculated the CL scale of the spell, and that does reduce the damage output significantly. Let me break it down as to how it would be by the Endgame, with using authentic math and options.
Magical Lineage + Wayang Spellhunter/Metamagic Master, and 2 Metamagic Rods of my Choice (probably Maximize and Quicken because reasons), and a Gloves of Storing to switch between the two during spellcasts. Usually start with the Maximize Rod, with the Quicken stored.
20 Base CL + 2 Potent Magic + 6 Spell Perfection(Spell Specialization and Mage's Tattoo) + 1 Orange Prism Ioun Stone = CL 29. Looks like I'm just shy of that CL 30 for the 6 blasts; drat. There has to be something I'm missing...Oh well, let's roll with it.
First cast is an Intensified Empowered Maximized [Heightened] Battering Blast, which results in 5(0.5(3D6+3)+49)+10, or an average of 285 points of damage. With Spell Perfection, this can be cast as anywhere from a 4th level (subtracting the Empowered through traits, and using a Rod for the Maximize, though that is optional) to a 9th level spell (leaving everything alone), so I could do that all day long.
Second cast is a Quickened Intensified Empowered Maximized [Heightened] Battering Blast, which results in the...
You do realize that you cannot use 2 metamagic rods on the same spell.
Barkskin, like Mage Armor, has a long enough duration that most adventurers will always have it up.I'm still wondering what the point of the hypothetical duel is, though.
Or how a prebuffing, AC stacking monk being able to beat a weak Barbarian demonstrates... anything related to this thread or any other thread at all.
Barkskin has one sixth of the duration of Mage Armor, so it's not that dependable.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't have much of a horse in this race, but I wanted to weigh in one one element of this discussion:
Stealth is a Rogue/Thief thing; no other class has the necessity for Stealth, because there is hardly any reason to hide from things in the Pathfinder universe. In fact, the only reason the Rogue/Thief uses Stealth is for when he's scouting ahead so he doesn't get munched on when he's by himself poking around the dungeons. If you're a big bad Martial, you don't need to hide from or sneak around anything, because if it messes with you, it's dead. IF the GM is a big enough jerk to throw something well beyond your pay grade, then the problem isn't with the Stealth skill, but with the GM having an unusual level of desire in killing your PC, and doesn't want to implement a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" scenario. ...
I don't think this is a defensible attitude. "Do martial characters need Stealth?" "No, they can just beat up any encounter." "What about the encounters they can't beat up?" "Then the GM is a jerk who wants to kill the party."
Or maybe the encounter is designed for the party to avoid, perhaps with Stealth.
...{. . .}
I could instead just focus on Battering Blast, hit you with 6(1.5(15D6+15))+10, with no Save, is Force damage (means can't be reduced in any way), and can Quicken for yet another set of the same; with this stuff combined, I would be deal over 500 points of damage on average: {. . .}How do you get that much damage? Battering Blast caps out a 5d6, and even Intensify Spell won't get it past 10d6, and Empower Spell gets it to 16d6, and then Maximize Spell gets it to 90, while Bloodline Shenanigans might get it to 105 or 120. If you Quicken an identical one, that is still at most 240 in 1 round.
Hmmm, it appears I miscalculated the CL scale of the spell, and that does reduce the damage output significantly. Let me break it down as to how it would be by the Endgame, with using authentic math and options.
Magical Lineage + Wayang Spellhunter/Metamagic Master, and 2 Metamagic Rods of my Choice (probably Maximize and Quicken because reasons), and a Gloves of Storing to switch between the two during spellcasts. Usually start with the Maximize Rod, with the Quicken stored.
20 Base CL + 2 Potent Magic + 6 Spell Perfection(Spell Specialization and Mage's Tattoo) + 1 Orange Prism Ioun Stone = CL 29. Looks like I'm just shy of that CL 30 for the 6 blasts; drat. There has to be something I'm missing...Oh well, let's roll with it.
First cast is an Intensified Empowered Maximized [Heightened] Battering Blast, which results in 5(0.5(3D6+3)+49)+10, or an average of 285 points of damage. With Spell Perfection, this can be cast as anywhere from a 4th level (subtracting the Empowered through traits, and using a Rod for the Maximize, though that is optional) to a 9th level spell (leaving everything alone), so I could do that all day long.
Second cast is a Quickened Intensified Empowered Maximized
I'm not. I use one for one spell, and then I use one for the other. I'm not double-dipping rods. Even so, I wouldn't be able to benefit from both and still be able to cast unless I had 3 arms, because then I don't fulfill Somatic components. There's Still spell, but that too would function better as a Rod than as a feat.
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I don't have much of a horse in this race, but I wanted to weigh in one one element of this discussion:
Stealth is a Rogue/Thief thing; no other class has the necessity for Stealth, because there is hardly any reason to hide from things in the Pathfinder universe. In fact, the only reason the Rogue/Thief uses Stealth is for when he's scouting ahead so he doesn't get munched on when he's by himself poking around the dungeons. If you're a big bad Martial, you don't need to hide from or sneak around anything, because if it messes with you, it's dead. IF the GM is a big enough jerk to throw something well beyond your pay grade, then the problem isn't with the Stealth skill, but with the GM having an unusual level of desire in killing your PC, and doesn't want to implement a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" scenario. ...I don't think this is a defensible attitude. "Do martial characters need Stealth?" "No, they can just beat up any encounter." "What about the encounters they can't beat up?" "Then the GM is a jerk who wants to kill the party."
Or maybe the encounter is designed for the party to avoid, perhaps with Stealth.
The problem with stealth in avoiding encounters is that everyone needs to have it. The scout needs it so they can go scout without getting in a fight. But then the whole party comes up and you're not all going to sneak by it. Unless you use magic or you have an entire stealth specialized party.
So it's not so much the barbarian doesn't need stealth cause she'll just kill it, it's the barbarian doesn't need stealth unless she's going to be playing the scout role.
As a player of Barbarians who invest in stealth there have been numerous times when scouting has ended fights before they can begin.
Poor, poor snoozing Dire Corbies...
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I don't have much of a horse in this race, but I wanted to weigh in one one element of this discussion:
Stealth is a Rogue/Thief thing; no other class has the necessity for Stealth, because there is hardly any reason to hide from things in the Pathfinder universe. In fact, the only reason the Rogue/Thief uses Stealth is for when he's scouting ahead so he doesn't get munched on when he's by himself poking around the dungeons. If you're a big bad Martial, you don't need to hide from or sneak around anything, because if it messes with you, it's dead. IF the GM is a big enough jerk to throw something well beyond your pay grade, then the problem isn't with the Stealth skill, but with the GM having an unusual level of desire in killing your PC, and doesn't want to implement a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" scenario. ...I don't think this is a defensible attitude. "Do martial characters need Stealth?" "No, they can just beat up any encounter." "What about the encounters they can't beat up?" "Then the GM is a jerk who wants to kill the party."
Or maybe the encounter is designed for the party to avoid, perhaps with Stealth.
The problem with stealth in avoiding encounters is that everyone needs to have it. The scout needs it so they can go scout without getting in a fight. But then the whole party comes up and you're not all going to sneak by it. Unless you use magic or you have an entire stealth specialized party.
So it's not so much the barbarian doesn't need stealth cause she'll just kill it, it's the barbarian doesn't need stealth unless she's going to be playing the scout role.
As a player of Barbarians who invest in stealth there have been numerous times when scouting has ended fights before they can begin.
Poor, poor snoozing Dire Corbies...
That'll teach 'em not to nap while on the job.
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Yeah, I'll wait on that FAQ, too, and that's the interpretation I'll use until it comes. I don't like overpowering spells like that...BB is nice enough on its own it doesn't need that interpretation to do more.Yes, it does. As your CL goes up, you get more rays. It stops at 3 rays. With Intensify, it stops at 4 rays.That has yet to be proven. CL-scaling of rays is not synonymous with CL-scaling of damage barring developer clarification. One does result in the other, but the calculation is "+CL=+ray" instead of "+CL=+damage" like Battering Blast, Ear-Piercing Scream, Fireball, etc. Until you get a FAQ to back you up, I stand by the statement 'Magic Missile and Scorching Ray are not valid for Intensify Spell'.
Intensify raises the damage cap and only the damage dice/level cap. Things like fireball have a damage dice per caster level cap. Scorching ray has nothing resembling damage dice per caster level.
Scorching ray just like the other spell has a "projectile/attack" per level cap, just like magic missile does.
1d6 points of fire damage per caster level
one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd
<---more rays based on CL
or every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile
<----more missiles based on CL
Benefit: An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels
<--this really needs to be written better. Is that an FAQ on it, but it does call out damage dice, and not projectiles, rays, and so on.
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Heroism: bonus on attack rolls (no weapon qualifier) for two and a half hours at level 15 from a second level slot
Note: If a sorcerer/wizard is casting it on themselves, Heroism is a 3rd level spell. You're probably thinking 2nd because it's a 2nd level bard spell. (One reason bards use it so much more often than wizards.) Though still useful at higher levels if you or your party has no other morale boosts to attack rolls/saves.
Invulnerable Rager is popular because you're getting a strong defensive bonus basically for free. Uncanny Dodge is a really pointless ability for most barbarians; your dexterity is going to be low so the difference between flat-footed and not flat-footed is negligible. The only category of Barbarian that falls under "can, but maybe won't" for IR is the Urban Barbarian because that's the only time your dex will be high enough to get value out of Uncanny Dodge.
The value of uncanny dodge is getting improved uncanny dodge at level 5, then those pesky sneak attacks stop working unless the bad guy is 4 levels higher than you which rarely if ever happens. Basic uncanny dodge is largely useless though.
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Invulnerable Rager is popular because you're getting a strong defensive bonus basically for free. Uncanny Dodge is a really pointless ability for most barbarians; your dexterity is going to be low so the difference between flat-footed and not flat-footed is negligible. The only category of Barbarian that falls under "can, but maybe won't" for IR is the Urban Barbarian because that's the only time your dex will be high enough to get value out of Uncanny Dodge.The value of uncanny dodge is getting improved uncanny dodge at level 5, then those pesky sneak attacks stop working unless the bad guy is 4 levels higher than you which rarely if ever happens. Basic uncanny dodge is largely useless though.
There are a lot of ways to get SA that don't involve flanking.
The other value of Uncanny dodge is gaining the ability to rage as an immediate action before your first turn (through items, etc). Thus bumping your saves vs the inevitable opening lockdown salvo of that pesky wizard.