As far as I can see there's literally no benefit to using one over the other.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can reload a light cross bow with a free action with a single feat. A repeating crossbow is stuck with reloading a clip with a full round action [standard with a feat] every 5 shots. This means that the repeating crossbow ends up SLOWER at firing than a non-repeater. The fact is the repeater is overpriced and hurts your action economy.
I'm pretty sure I already explained this on some of the other threads you had on the bolt ace but there it is again. The ONLY reason to take a repeater is to sell it at your first opportunity and buy a regular masterwork crossbow and pocket the profits.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because loading a new clip is a full-round action?
It's advantageous early levels, but once you pick up Rapid Reload, you're much better off with a light crossbow for reloading as a free action.
Once you hit Crossbow Mastery, it's "viable" again, but no more so than a regular crossbow - it's not as though the Repeating Crossbow has better stats (it actually has slightly worse stats - it weighs more.)
It's a legitimate pick for the weapon you start out with, though.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
a bolt-ace can reload a weapon he is proficient with as a free action.
lol, no
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Because it takes a full-round action to load a new case of 5 bolts repeating crossbow, which Inexplicable Reload only reduces to a standard action. Rapid Reload by RAW doesn't affect it, but if it does apply then it becomes a move action at level 11 with a Heavy, and a Free action just from reload with a light one. With Crossbow Mastery it does however become a free action by RAW. It also takes an exotic weapon proficiency feat to use it.
Whereas with a light crossbow, it only takes Rapid Reload to knock this down to a free action... no Crossbow Mastery required, no exotic proficiency. And with a heavy Crossbow it takes Rapid Reload, and Crossbow Mastery... but still no Exotic Proficiency. Plus repeating crossbows are bloody expensive
I'll break it down
Repeating Crossbow (Heavy and Light)
- Pros: Fires 5 bolts with free actions between.
- Cons: Requires exotic proficiency. Takes full round to reload new bolts. Requires Crossbow Mastery to reduce to free action clip reload.
- Feat Tax to reduce to free action = 5 (including prerequisites): Exotic Proficiency, Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Crossbow Mastery
(Though if Rapid Reload affects Light Repeating Crossbow its a feat tax of 2)
Heavy Crossbow
- Pros: Higher damage than Light Crossbow. Lower feat tax than Repeating Crossbow (due to no exotic proficiency).
- Cons: Full-round action reload without feats. Heavier. Takes more feats than Light Crossbow.
- Feat Tax to reduce to free action = 4 (including prerequisites): Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Crossbow Mastery
Light Crossbow
- Pros: Simple weapon, no special proficiency needed.
- Cons: Lower range and damage. Move action to reload without feat.
- Feat Tax to reduce to free action = 1: Rapid Reload
Basically with a Light Crossbow you don't need Crossbow Mastery AT ALL and can go for a different feat. With a Heavy Crossbow you'll want the mastery though. But you don't even need to worry about Exotic proficiency compared to Repeating.
EDIT: Derp, forgot that inexplicable reload + rapid reload only reduces heavy crossbow reload to swift action. Fixed.
The feat rapid reload, which has no prerequisites beyond proficiency with your weapon, lets you reload a light crossbow as a free action, to reload a repeating crossbow as a free action you need crossbow mastery, which requires you to already have rapid shot, rapid reload and point blank shot, assuming you already needed all those feats, this still means you need 1 more feat than normal and have to wait until level 5 at the earliest before you can reload as a free action. Until you get reloads down to a free action you are at a disadvantage if you need to fire more than 5 shots. Then add in the fact that it's heavier and more expensive with no actual benefits and it's simply an inferior weapon. I could get.
a bolt-ace can reload a weapon he is proficient with as a free action.lol, no
yes, he seems very mistaken on how the class works. There is nothing inherent to the class that makes all the weapons a free reload.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, with crossbow mastery you can reload a repeating heavy crossbow as a free action.
But at that point you're paying more money for a weapon that weighs more and requires exotic weapon proficiency to use and has identical combat stats to a regular crossbow
It should be pretty obvious why most people consider spending a feat, gold and carrying capacity for absolutely nothing is a bad idea.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
zainale: That means that anyone that takes the feat can reload as a free action and NOT all bolt aces. You can't start a debate assuming things are taken that aren't required for the class. You have no need to take crossbow mastery as a bolt ace and even if you do, you're better off using an underwater heavy crossbow instead of a repeating crossbow.
You either have the repeater being slower to reload or have it be unable to used underwater. On top of that, it's less likely to have an exotic weapon show up as treasure from an AP/adventure than a simple weapon. Repeaters are only useful until you can reload other crossbows as a free action then they become overpriced and unneeded.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
As a suggestion, you may want to use the forum's own features to highlight items rather than use elaborate 'arrows'.
For Rapid Reload, they cite the light and heavy crossbows, but not the light and heavy repeaters. Those are distinct weapons; note how they had to rewrite the feat to allow it to cover guns (the core rulebook version doesn't include them what with not having guns). I personally wish it covered slings and sling staves, but that's my problem, not the writers'.
If Crossbow Mastery works on all crossbows as you suggest, then ... repeating crossbows have no actual advantage over normal ones. The only benefit I can think of is to make it harder for others to borrow your weapon, I guess. Which I normally think of as a flaw and why I'd never take options like that in any game; sometimes you just have to lend or give that weapon.
Yeah, being a bolt-ace has nothing to do with it. You might as well say they can cast spells too, if they sink ranks in UMD
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
maybe your gms are nice and give you as many free actions as you want but my dm is stingy and most likely will only allow one free action.
Considering the free action is the same way one loads a bow to shoot more than once in a round once that BAB +6 rolls around, I don't think you should have anything to worry about here.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
maybe your gms are nice and give you as many free actions as you want but my dm is stingy and most likely will only allow one free action.
Allowing free actions to work as written is hardly "nice".
Stay away from classes that need free action economy if your GM is a prude
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
maybe your gms are nice and give you as many free actions as you want but my dm is stingy and most likely will only allow one free action.
This makes NO sense then. A repeater takes MORE free actions. 1 free per bolt reload and then a free action to reload a clip if you have crossbow mastery.
Remember that archers use free actions to fire bows so it's unlikely that a DM will be "stingy" enough to not allow base feats to work and they can rapid shot-multishot-haste attack and use more free action than you can.
Bottom line, a limit on free actions is a minus for repeaters and not a plus.
Because you become the God of reloading at some point.
Now starting combat TWF repeating HAND crossbows sounds neato...
Because you become the God of reloading at some point.
Now starting combat TWF repeating HAND crossbows sounds neato...
What domains would the god of reloading grant?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, with crossbow mastery you can reload a repeating heavy crossbow as a free action.
But at that point you're paying more money for a weapon that weighs more and requires exotic weapon proficiency to use and has identical combat stats to a regular crossbow
It should be pretty obvious why most people consider spending a feat, gold and carrying capacity for absolutely nothing is a bad idea.
The bolt ace has proficiency in all crossbows, so being exotic or simple doesn't matter to him.
maybe your gms are nice and give you as many free actions as you want but my dm is stingy and most likely will only allow one free action.
The only reason why free action use was ever even a subject when it came to base gunslinger was because there were people that found a trick (was it weapon cords) that let them juggle two pistols and shoot dozens of shots a round. On a class that doesn't care about penalties since ti hits touch AC.
As a boltslinger considering a repeating crossbow, you will never hav ethe number of free actions that particular builds would have. Since it was what? 3 free actions per every shot? On a TWF style that also get the extra attacks of archery feats? basically- you will not have over two dozen free actions per round, which is what was so ridiculous. But normal use of a gun for an iterative has more like... 7 free actions.
Even if you tried something similar with hand crossbows, you would ultimately not be as much of a problem as a TWF gunslinger. The entire point of bolt ace is that it removes the problematic nature of the gun rules, leaving something that is more 'normal' (where the -2 of TWF actually matters when combined with the penalties on archery feat). Guns were the main reason why we even discuss free action limits, since they murder everything with something so silly as juggling or extra hands.
If your GM takes awya the basic functioning of your class, that is a personal problem with your GM. You just want to do something that basically amounts of a slightly better form of basic archery (better crits, dex to damage). Really nice, but not game breaking.
Because you become the God of reloading at some point.
Now starting combat TWF repeating HAND crossbows sounds neato...
Not so "neato" when you actually look at the mechanics. With repeaters you have to "reload it by pulling the reloading lever" and that requires a free hand, something you lack using two of them. So one attack each before you have to drop one...
Now you can actually TWF with two heavy wrist launchers and crossbow mastery. It's just another reason repeating crossbows aren't worthwhile.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not really fair coming into the General Discussion forum if you're just going to put your hands over your ears and keep repeating (no pun intended) the same arguments which have been deconstructed already.
Can't have a discussion with a brick wall.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Crossbows are pretty terrible, since you need 4Feats to finally be able to do what bows do for free.
The Bolt Ace is better than you guys give it credit for however:
-You need to spend grit to hit Touch AC(later you can get Signature Deed)
-no working Double Barreled stuff(aside of Minotaur Crossbow)
+have much more range than a normal Gunslinger
+you have no missfire
+increase your crit multiplier by 1
+can dual wield without munchkinning
+some cool Crossbows that launch Grappling hooks/Alchemical weapons
In the end it likely makes for a more balanced Gunslinger, that can still deal good damage(without breaking encounters), still lacks utility like all Gunslingers, but the catch for me is, he can stand out of melee range, when you fight large and larger monsters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Until there is an underwater repeater, you basically have to start with an underwater light or heavy crossbow. You don't want all of your feats to go useless when you have to adventure underwater.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
2 lvl dip into alchemist and grow yourself a third arm 4 lvl dip lets you grow a second extra arm. >.> just one way of doing it .
That's an Alchemist thing, not a Bolt Ace Gunslinger thing.
2 lvl dip into alchemist and grow yourself a third arm 4 lvl dip lets you grow a second extra arm. >.> just one way of doing it .That's an Alchemist thing, not a Bolt Ace Gunslinger thing.
Although, even a 1 level dip into alchemist enables some lovely launching crossbow shenanigans...
Nom nom Int+Dex to damage.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
While I agree that using the repeater is probably a mistake, it does have ONE advantage that I can see. It can fire up to 5 times when using the crossbow one-handed when your other hand is unavailable for whatever reason. (A tiny tiny advantage, but it might pop up.)
Repeating Crossbows aren't even that good, you need to pull the reloading level in-between shots so you still need the two hands.
"Load: As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Note: The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Repeating crossbows are pretty much only good if you don't have rapid reload, but do have a way to fire multiple shots in a round, even then it's only good for the first 5 shots you take. I guess it's slightly cheaper to buy and enchant say 3 repeating crossbows than 15 normal ones if you want to do some weird shoot then drop your weapon and quickdraw a new one build, still probably costs too much to work though.
Crossbows are pretty terrible, since you need 4Feats to finally be able to do what bows do for free.
The Bolt Ace is better than you guys give it credit for however:
-You need to spend grit to hit Touch AC(later you can get Signature Deed)
-no working Double Barreled stuff(aside of Minotaur Crossbow)
+have much more range than a normal Gunslinger
+you have no missfire
+increase your crit multiplier by 1
+can dual wield without munchkinning
+some cool Crossbows that launch Grappling hooks/Alchemical weaponsIn the end it likely makes for a more balanced Gunslinger, that can still deal good damage(without breaking encounters), still lacks utility like all Gunslingers, but the catch for me is, he can stand out of melee range, when you fight large and larger monsters.
+you can crit fish.
Since no one really uses crossbows outside of this, it is easy to forget- they have 19-20/x2. So that is VERY easy to turn int 17-20/x3 with the threat range increasing feat and their modifier increasing ability. They basically hit like ranged falcatas for the bolt ace. Even if you don't go for TWF, you can still dish out tons of damage since you can expect to get those x3 crits in just about every turn with an archery style.
I'll admit- you can't do the dual wielding double barreled shenanigans of a gunslinger. THAT IS AN ADVANTAGE. Simply because one o the mot common things I see in play by post recruitment threads is "no gunslingers". Gunslingers can present problems when they are allowed to munchkin out more attacks, particularly since they can just heap up attack penalties since they hit touch AC. But bolt ace? It is relatively 'normal' in comparison. Even if you try the same stuff, you appropriately suffer for it.
|
I can think of five ways to TWF crossbows: Amputation Agonizing Obedience, a Prehensile Tail from Varana or Tiefling, Extra Arm Alchemist, Juggler Bard, and the Endless Ammunition enchantment.
He can just be a juggler Bard 2. He is always considered to have a free hand (as long as not dual wielding 3 things).
I can think of five ways to TWF crossbows: Amputation Agonizing Obedience, a Prehensile Tail from Varana or Tiefling, Extra Arm Alchemist, Juggler Bard, and the Endless Ammunition enchantment.
Or you can just use heavy wrist launchers with crossbow mastery.
|
I can think of five ways to TWF crossbows: Amputation Agonizing Obedience, a Prehensile Tail from Varana or Tiefling, Extra Arm Alchemist, Juggler Bard, and the Endless Ammunition enchantment.
Or use a bunch of hand crossbows & Quickdraw. Not a good primary combat style, but it's useful for a mostly melee TWF rogue to use the first round of combat when he wins initiative. Gives him a full attack with SA & doesn't get him mobbed like running into melee ahead of tankier characters might.
Much better range increment than daggers, so more accurate.
Is it just me, or does rapid reload not apply to a repeating crossbow, at all.
The feat says "crossbow(hand, light, heavy)" and makes no mention of "repeating crossbow(light, heavy)". Not only that, it requires "weapon proficiency(crossbow type)" or "exotic weapon proficiency (firearm)". A repeating crossbow would have needed to say exotic, since they are clearly making the distinction for firearms.
The list from the feat is NOT an exhaustive list. For example, a Spear-Sling works with the feat even though it's not listed in the feat.
As to exotic, it also works with the double crossbow, an exotic weapon. Now the repeaters aren't given an exception but it wouldn't hurt anything to allow them and it make a logical sense as firearms with clips can be used with rapid reload. It really doesn't matter in the long run though as a normal crossbow fires as fast as a repeater after feats so it's just more expensive and weighs more for no real benefit.
Crossbows are pretty terrible, since you need 4Feats to finally be able to do what bows do for free.
The Bolt Ace is better than you guys give it credit for however:
-You need to spend grit to hit Touch AC(later you can get Signature Deed)
Actually, this particular point isn't true. The first errata made it so that signature deed cannot be applied to that deed.
There's another issue with Bolt Aces that isn't obvious. The rules which exempt guns from the 'deadly aim cannot apply to touch attacks' are specific to guns, and hence you cannot use deadly aim if you do expend grit to do touch attacks.
Without the touch attack schtick the gunslinger class really isn't all that great. Truth be told, a Bolt Ace is something you dip for five levels to get dex to damage and then move to another class which can carry more weight like fighter. All in all, no matter what you do, a bowman is still better.
To be fair, unless you need signature deed you do that with a regular gunslinger too.
Though in the right group you can get some mileage out of distracting shot, especially if you're TWF so you throw away one of your crappy offhand attacks first.