Would you care to elaborate. :-)
It is all context.
I read all the time here on the boards how much staff's are not worth their weight due to other options players have; too few charges, too expensive in resources to recharge, etc.
I am not arguing any merits for or against staff's, I am just saying... context.
My Druid was blessed with an ancient Staff of Weather in the Dark Sun campaign we play under PF house rules. If you know anything about Athas and Dark Sun, you will recognize the context of how incredibly rare and valuable that staff is in an all but magic-dead world.
So, yea, it is all context.
Personally I kind'a wish the staff was a better weapon. It's honestly a club that requires two hands instead of letting you one-hand it, loses the 10' range a club gives, and in exchange lets you use it as a double weapon ... and most folks who go TWF pick other things like kukris or other things than 1d6 damage, 20 crit range, and x2 crit damage.
Or are you talking about magic staffs?
The context is important, although an argument could be made for either the magical and/or the non-magical staffs being poor choices
I've given staves as loot before, even the healing/life one. Not one has ever been used. They're either cashed in, or tossed in a portable hole against some future need that never seems to arise.
In my experience, in a magic-rich world, staves are useless. As the game has moved more in a magic-rich setting direction over the past few decades, the staff has languished.
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Just beware of Staff infections.
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I agree, the staff is just awful! Why, I put in for room service, and it arrived twenty minutes late, and worse, the food was cold!
...Oh, you meant the magic items. Yeah, I've never bought them as a player, though I'll keep one around if it drops as treasure.
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I'm surprised that no one has linked to the succubus Ina grapple thread yet, given the possible innuendo in the title
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Nothing quite says "archmage" like have a custom staff that fits your theme.
Aura Strong enchantment and necromancy; CL 13th
Slot –; Price 85,540 gp; Weight 5 lb.
This gnarled black staff is 5 feet long, has a face carved into a large wooden knob at the top, and is made of magically darkened wood. The face twists and screams in agony whenever the staff is gripped tightly. The staff is strongly evil-aligned and cannot be wielded safely except by those who possess an evil alignment. Those of non-evil alignment that wield it suffer one negative level, which persists until they relinquish possession of the staff. The staff also becomes temporarily non-functional when in the hands of such a wielder (as if it had been the target of a successful dispel magic) and remains that way until relinquished. The staff allows the use of the following spells:
- empowered maximized ray of enfeeblement (1 charge)
- empowered maximized touch of idiocy (1 charge)
- waves of exhaustion (2 charges)
Requirements Craft Staff, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, ray of enfeeblement, touch of idiocy, waves of exhaustion; Cost 61,100 gp
***
Aura Strong universal; CL 17th
Slot –; Price 176,520 gp; Weight 5 lb.
Blindingly glorious, this 6-foot long diamond splinter was harvested from the very heart of the plane of earth. The staff was created by one of the most powerful arcane bloodline sorcerers that ever lived. Via arcane apotheosis, the sorcerer was able to use the staff to manipulate the very fabric of reality on a whim. This magical staff possesses the following spells:
- limited wish (5 charges)
- wish (10 charges)
Requirements Craft Staff, limited wish, wish; Cost 163,260 gp
***
Aura moderate conjuration and evocation; CL 8th
Slot none; Price 43,200gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Created by a powerful half-elf wizard that revered nature's terrible power, this staff appears to be made of a long slender shard of obsidian and allows use of the following spells:
- wicked weeds (1 charge; as black tentacles, but produces barbed vines instead of black tentacles)
- obsidian flow (1 charge)
- sleet storm (1 charge)
Many staves of nature’s wrath also double as magical spears. Add the costs of the magical spear and the staff of nature’s wrath together and use the spear’s weight value when using this variant.
Requirements Craft Staff, black tentacles, obsidian flow, sleet storm (may vary if made into a spear); Cost 21,600gp
***
Aura Moderate conjuration and evocation; CL 9th
Slot –; Price 90,000 gp; Weight 5 lb.
A weapon of revenge carved from orc bone, this staff was created by Corral the diviner to aid her in the destruction of her husband’s murderers. This magical staff possesses the following spells:
- Cone of cold (1 charge)
- Extended acid arrow (1 charge)
- Intensified fireball (1 charge)
- Intensified lightning bolt (1 charge)
- Reach magic missile (long range) (1 charge)
Requirements Craft Staff, Extend Spell, Intensified Spell, Reach Spell, acid arrow, cone of cold, fireball, lightning bolt, magic missile; Cost 45,000 gp
***
Aura Strong transmutation; CL 20th
Slot –; Price 85,000 gp; Weight 5 lb.
A powerful weapon carved from the finger bone of a titan, this staff was created by Kang’s ancestors long ago to aid them in the destruction of their enemies. Thought lost with the destruction of their homeland, the grand magus, Kang, multiarmed destroyer of armies, succeeded in recovering the ancient weapon from the annals of history. This magical staff possesses the following spells:
- enlarge person (1 charge)
- monstrous physique IV (2 charges)
- transformation (3 charges)
Requirements Craft Staff, enlarge person, monstrous physique IV, transformation; Cost 45,000 gp
***
Aura Strong evocation; CL 13th
Slot –; Price 96,850 gp; Weight 2.5 lb.
Used by Lady Arroway, a powerful fetchling cleric, to better serve her master, the shadowdancer and lord ruler on the Plane of Shadow, Revin Bitter. This instrument appears to be little more than a jet black darkwood quarterstaff. Wherever it goes, light in the immediate vicinity noticeably dims, as though the staff were hungrily trying to consume all radiance. This magical staff possesses the following spells:
- darkness (1 charge)
- lunar veil (2 charges)
Requirements Craft Staff, darkness, lunar veil; Cost 48,750 gp
Just beware of Staff infections.
Well done Sir well done
Yeah, I think its sad that staves are as unpopular as they seem right now. Since it is so easy in Pathfinder's current state to get spells and powers from other classes, the spells and powers provided by a staff lose attraction, especially since most staves cost tons of money. As a GM, I've dropped staves into the loot pile three times in the last 7 years, and not once were they really used before being sold off. A shame.
@Ravingdork: those look pretty cool, thanks for sharing.
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For me, the 10 charge limit really weakens the utility of staves as I see them. The somewhat onerous recharge process compounds this drawback.
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The problem is that 3x converted staves primarily in to storage devices for SPECIFIC spells (ditto potions) and made almost all of the staves with non spell-specific powers into rods. Pathfinder re-introduced the non spell-specific potions as 'elixir' wondrous items.
Recombining staves and rods would be a good start for making more staves useful. Alternatively, more of them could be given non spell-specific powers like the staff of power, dragon staff, or staff of the magi. Making more of them into magical weapons (e.g. staff of authority) would help too.
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Arcane batteries from Magical Marketplace help with the recharging problem quite a bit. Sadly there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of additional support for spell trigger items, much less staves.
I think less skilled/thoughtful players will often tend to react to a magical staff like, "Wow, that's pretty cool. My PC wants to use it!" until more experienced/greedy players point out that the staff could be sold for lots of profit.
I guess the biggest "problem" with staffs is the inability to recharge them quickly. This isn't a big deal in a slow paced or episodic campaign like Kingmaker but can probably make staffs seem kind of pointless if the DM has you on an adventure treadmill to prevent crafting, recharging, etc.
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The biggest issue (IMO) is the price-point is high for the benefit: By the time you can actually afford a staff (by WBL guidelines), the spells the staff contains are seldom all that useful and/or you already have sufficient spell slots to cast yourself; also, the selection of the spells tends to be... niche, rather than broadly useful. Other than a staff of the master* (and an animate staff for a character focused around constructs), I've hardly ever seen them used by PCs.
I feel that using a market price of 400 gp x spell level x caster level (minimum 8th), instead of 800 gp x spell level x caster level, works much better in making staves relevant without making them too powerful. The way staves are handled in Pathfinder is probably a bit of an over-reaction to the "nova" aspect of staves in 3.x, where they (usually) couldn't be recharged and were basically wands that could be used to trigger more than one spell and could hold spells over 4th level.
The recharging aspect is, even more so than item crafting, highly dependent on campaign pacing and structure: In campaigns with limited or no "down time," the staff is nearly useless compared to just casting the spell yourself (other than in one or two corner cases that don't use spell slots to recharge); other campaigns, with longer periods between "adventures," will find a staff more useful.
*- Actually a staff that many casters actually want, but mainly for the ability to use charges to apply metamagic.
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I disagree with you. The Paizo staff are pretty good at their jobs.
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Based on a post here, I ran some statistics and devised the following chart:
Declining Dice
d12 (approx 25)
d10 (approx 20)
d8 (approx 10)
d6 (approx 5)
d4 (approx 2.5)
Each time a device is used, the user rolls the dice, which "declines" on a "1" to the next lower type. Once at "d4", a "1" drains the device of charges entirely.
The statistics above give an average of how many uses can be reasonably expected starting with a certain die type. So, a staff having 10 charges would start at d8.
Staves can be absolutely amazing in a campaign where there's downtime between adventures and the GM isn't stingy with treasure.
@Cyrad - The same could be said of crafting feats, and I guess some might feel that it is nice the DM can easily control the power of these options by deciding how much downtime the PCs get. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with any guidelines on how much downtime the PCs "should" get "normally"
I guess folks might say, "That's completely up to the DM!", but the same could be said of Wealth By Level or even experience points, and there are guidelines for those as well as 3 separate XP tracks. I don't think that having time management guidelines to establish what's "normal" would be a bad thing. If those sorts of guidelines actually already exist maybe somebody could post where.
Downtime is not a strict requirement for item crafting.
Crafting while adventuring is explicitly allowed by RAW in the Core Rulebook (four hours of work--during rest stops, at meal breaks, etc.--to net two hours of progress). Using the option to accelerate progress by adding +5 to the creation DC will allow an adventuring crafter to gain four hours of progress for the four hours of work "during the day." If the PC has a ring of sustenance (reducing the need for rest from eight hours to two), the PC can dedicate another four hours of work (since the RAW explicitly limit the number of hours that can be spent on item creation to eight hours per day) in "distracting or dangerous environment" (normally netting two hours of progress, but this can also be accelerated by adding +5 to the DC).
Any PC that wants to (and has the appropriate feats, has enough skill ranks in Spellcraft, etc.) can craft without requiring downtime, just going by the Core Rulebook. Note that a character with a valet archetype familiar doesn't need to add +5 to the DC (and, in fact, gains a +2 bonus to the crafting check) to accelerate progress.
The Ring won't affect the max of four hours.
There is no 'time available' for the 4 hours per day. Technically, you're still in a distracting or dangerous environment, and being awake 6 more hours doesn't change that. For example, you could make the same 'time save' with LEsser Restoration and just ignore sleeping.
The rules for crafting while adventuring pay NO attention to how much time you actually have. If you spend ten minutes fighting a boss and then pull out for the rest of the day, it matters no different then if you spend 8 hours mapping a labyrinth and dealing with traps.
You get 4 hours, and it counts as two. Making more hours doesn't change that number.
You may WANT it to. You could logically INFER that it does. But the rules don't care how much time you 'actually have'. You get the 4/2 hours, and that's it.
Key sentences:
"This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5."
"The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day." (emphasis mine)
"If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night." (emphasis mine)
"If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks."
"Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)."
The additional four hours (spent in an "uninterrupted 4 hour block") by an adventuring crafter with a ring of sustenance is "dedicated to creation" instead of resting and is separate from the time spent "during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night." It is just "in a distracting or dangerous environment" (as I mentioned). All this is in RAW.
And the rules for accelerated crafting are general to all crafting activities, just as the +5 to DC for lacking a prerequisite is general to all crafting (unless otherwise explicitly stated).
You're conflating two different rules...one for non-adventuring item creation, and one for adventuring creation. You also snipped off the sentences that would shoot you down.
-----------------------------------
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
--------------------------------
That's the full text.
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.
This is the text that affects adventuring, end stop. It doesn't matter how many hours you have free. You only get 4, and end up with 2. A ring of sustenance, sleep times, and lesser Restoration are not mentioned as exceptions to this rule.
The second set of rules is if you devote time to item creation while NOT adventuring. It specifically says such is done in a controlled environment, such as a shrine or lab.
If you work on it in an uncontrolled area, you only get half the benefit. This could be anywhere from the kitchen table where people bug you, to a windy seashore where you have to keep rearranging your comps. Or the edge of a battlefield getting ready to fight. Or in a prison cell. You're not 'safe', but you aren't 'adventuring'.
In any event, you must devote the time in 4 hour blocks, or you accomplish nothing. You can't break it up like you do while adventuring.
Technically, you could get around the 4 hour adventuring limit by teleporting to a safe location, and working for another 4 hours, then teleporting back. The Sustenance/lesser restoration would be useful at that time for getting 4 hours out of nowhere.
But barring that, the adventuring 4 hours is a limit without the noted exceptions you are trying to insist on, Dragonchess.
Note this: Previous to the adventuring ruling,you absolutely could not work on crafting without teleporting back to a safe location at ALL. There's an absolute limit on what you can do while adventuring, what you can do if not in a controlled environment outside of adventuring, and what you can do in a safe, controlled environment.
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I find the Paizo staff to be extremely helpful and responsive. ;)
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How Pathfinder does staffs is HORRIBLE. What house rules or 3PP do you and your group use to fix this in your game?
The plural of staff is staves. ;)
How Pathfinder does staffs is HORRIBLE. What house rules or 3PP do you and your group use to fix this in your game?The plural of staff is staves. ;)
Should maybe tell that to the game designers. They use "staffs" in the game's rules text more often than not.
Hey, game designers, you need to hire some new editors!...There, notified.
Based on a post here, I ran some statistics and devised the following chart:
Declining Dice
d12 (approx 25)
d10 (approx 20)
d8 (approx 10)
d6 (approx 5)
d4 (approx 2.5)Each time a device is used, the user rolls the dice, which "declines" on a "1" to the next lower type. Once at "d4", a "1" drains the device of charges entirely.
The statistics above give an average of how many uses can be reasonably expected starting with a certain die type. So, a staff having 10 charges would start at d8.
I actually use this similar concept for Weapon Degradation. And I've seen it done for ammo and consumables in The Black Hack.Works really well.
my staves tend to have 10 charges, renewed in full daily, with the option to spend spell a spell slot/prepared spell to add charges back into the staff.
They also have the stats of a magical quarterstaff or club at the very least.
Some stories have the pace for downtime, but mostly players are like "What do you mean four days! I'm not sitting around on an airship for 4 days!" even though the player only has to sit there for 2 seconds for me to say that 4 days have passed they act like it's wasting time actually around the table. Some characters are really resistant to downtime, in great part because too many classes have nothing worthwhile to do while in downtime.
What the heck kind of encounters are the PCs going through that they would need to expend all of their staff charges every day???
Isn't it more than likely you would use 1-3 charges during an adventure, recharge one of those each day while adventuring, then charge the rest in between adventures?
I imagine using them all up and then having to wait the full ten days to charge it up to full would be the exception in most games.
People seem to underestimate the versatility of a good staff. Every spell in your staff is a spell that you could potentially cast TEN times in a single encounter (for those really desperate encounters). What's more, they are also spells that you no longer have to prepare! Who doesn't want more spell slots or expanded spell selection?
Crafting during travel or during rest periods while adventuring can easily become a pretty controversial subject. This is really supposed to be a thread about staffs though, and recharging them can sometimes be a challenge. I wonder if some DMs might allow cohorts, followers, or even just hired NPCs to recharge staffs for busy PC casters (especially if the normal cost for NPC spell casting were paid)
@Ravingdork - The idea of "then charging the rest in between adventures" sounds pretty reasonable until you end up in games where there's rarely any time in between adventures. Some DMs intentionally deny the PCs downtime to make it tougher to get the magic items they want while others just seem to feel that forcing the PCs through the campaign as fast as possible will result in the most pressure/excitement/fun/suffering.
The idea of "then charging the rest in between adventures" sounds pretty reasonable until you end up in games where there's rarely any time in between adventures. Some DMs intentionally deny the PCs downtime to make it tougher to get the magic items they want while others just seem to feel that forcing the PCs through the campaign as fast as possible will result in the most pressure/excitement/fun/suffering.
Yes, that would limit a staff's utility a little, but it remains a useful tool even then, unless you consistently expend all of your spell slots every day and have none left over in which to charge the staff (in which case, an ally might still be able to charge it for you).
Also, that's really not a problem caused by staves themselves, but by a GM's/group's particular play style. The core game assumes the heroes will get some downtime.
Downtime doesn't really enter into it except for the staff's initial creation (and even with the most pushy GMs, you can still generally get 1/4 speed crafting done while adventuring).
Seems to me that people are making it sound like they can't charge a staff at all without being able to take a week-long vacation.
I like staves, but that may be because of some interpretations of mine:
1) it doesn't have to be a staff, it may be a sword or other held item. If the creator has the feats (eg. craft magic arms and armor AND craft staff for a greatsword "staff")
2) it can be modified after creation, following the rules for adding abilities and upgrading items.
But if time isn't given to maintain/recharge one or two staves per caster using them, then it's not really rechargeable and should be priced a lot lower for that campaign.
It's almost too good for costly/diverse spells like limited wish, I think it's 110-120,000 gp and extremely versatile. Even though non-thematic and single spell staves are frowned upon - which I agree with.
I like staves, but that may be because of some interpretations of mine:
1) it doesn't have to be a staff, it may be a sword or other held item. If the creator has the feats (eg. craft magic arms and armor AND craft staff for a greatsword "staff")
2) it can be modified after creation, following the rules for adding abilities and upgrading items.
I for one always felt this was the way that it was.
Uhh 1-3 every day and even if they have a relevant spell slot unused to recharge it, in 5 days. Factoring in things like running out of relevant spells slots to charge it then it's really easy to end up only 6 charges left, which makes 4 days of downtime quite relevant.
Note that I said 1-3 charges per adventure, not per day. I would think it a relatively rare occasion where you would need to spam a spell from a staff several times in a single encounter, or even in a single day. Even if you ended up in a scenario where the spell in the staff was exactly the one you needed to spam in order to win the encounter, would you not be glad to have had the ability to spam it in order to save the day?
Whether or not you have downtime becomes moot if you die today.
And it doesn't matter that it's caster-level-1 as Staves reflect the caster level of the person who use them. So a Staff of Magic Missile should only cost 400gp. And as a spell trigger item it doesn't provoke to use it. This is a nice thing to drop for players as it grows with their caster level and they will probably end the day with at least one spell unused so that can keep the staff topped up.
You seem to be ignoring the universal rule that states that staves are always at a minimum of Caster level 8.
I don’t disagree that staffs can be useful. If players know that they won’t be able to use a staff consistently and could turn it into gold instead it will often get sold though.
Also, that's really not a problem caused by staves themselves, but by a GM's/group's particular play style. The core game assumes the heroes will get some downtime.
I don’t recall any rules or guidelines regarding how much downtime the PCs “should” get. Like wealth, downtime can increase PC power, so DMs might be inclined to get stingy with it. Sometimes DMs want to be stingy with gold too, but the WBL chart helps groups gauge how they're doing relative to the expected baseline. If there's no expected baseline it can be tough to tell what's "normal".
@GM Rednal - I don't see how having established downtime baselines like those for XP and WBL would hurt the negotiation process you're recommending.