Elemental Arcane Schools. What elements are missing still?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So, for the Elemental Arcane Schools available for Wizards the choose, we have the classic Air, Earth, Fire, and Water and the three other exotic choices Metal, Void, and Wood. Are there any other elements that can be added? The only one that comes to mind is Cold to be honest but Water kinda covers that (sorta anyways).


Aether and sonic come to mind.

The Exchange

Darkness and light would seem possibilities (unless void covers darkness?). Maybe force? Pretty much anything that fits in the 'Descriptor' line could be shoehorned in somewhere if we're taking a wide view of what qualifies as an 'element'.


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Surprise.


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One-Word Response wrote:
Surprise.

See "AH" on periodic table.


Void covers Aether and darkness at the same time.

Light potentially could exist, but I think it's more likely that the elements are pretty much covered entirely, since there are seven schools already.

Sonic makes sense, but not really because I think it (and electricity) are covered by Air.


The elemental schools come from different real world cultural views of the elements.

The Greek: Earth, Air, Water, Fire
The Chinese: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water
The Japanese: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void

Scarab Sages

Dave Justus wrote:

The elemental schools come from different real world cultural views of the elements.

The Greek: Earth, Air, Water, Fire
The Chinese: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water
The Japanese: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void

And...I would have hoped that would be common knowledge on here. The only thing more that *might* be considered a legitimate 8th school is "Thought/Spirit."

Of course, if you REALLY want more Elemental Schools, there is a great deal of room for expansion....


We are missing the Medieval Alchemical elements of Mercury, Salt, and Sulphur.

We could also use exploration of the four humors: Black Bile (Earth), Yellow Bile (Fire), Phlegm (Water), and Blood (Air).

Scarab Sages

Xuldarinar wrote:

We are missing the Medieval Alchemical elements of Mercury, Salt, and Sulphur.

This I could get behind!

Xuldarinar wrote:


We could also use exploration of the four humors: Black Bile (Earth), Yellow Bile (Fire), Phlegm (Water), and Blood (Air).

Since when has Blood been Air and Yellow Bile been Fire? My original source had it the other way around (although I saw White Wolf's PROMETHEAN: THE CREATED arranged them your way).


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Xuldarinar wrote:

We are missing the Medieval Alchemical elements of Mercury, Salt, and Sulphur.

This I could get behind!

Xuldarinar wrote:


We could also use exploration of the four humors: Black Bile (Earth), Yellow Bile (Fire), Phlegm (Water), and Blood (Air).
Since when has Blood been Air and Yellow Bile been Fire? My original source had it the other way around (although I saw White Wolf's PROMETHEAN: THE CREATED arranged them your way).

It is that way in Humorism, at least as far as my google skills can find. I can justify blood being air, given its function in our body.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Xuldarinar wrote:

We are missing the Medieval Alchemical elements of Mercury, Salt, and Sulphur.

This I could get behind!

I admit, I'm pretty curious to see how a Salt Wizard would work.


How about life? Death? Time? Gravity? Entropy?

Speaking of mercury and sulfur, how about pulling a Redcloak and just using real-world elements? I'm sure there's loads of fun stuff we could do with that.


Quasi and para-elements. Ooze, lightning, ice, magma, and so forth.

Are there archetypes (even among 3rd party) that combine elements together ala the cross blooded archetype for Sorcerers?


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Boron

Scarab Sages

Avoron wrote:

How about life? Death? Time? Gravity? Entropy?

Since when has anyone called those (or "aether" or "sonic") "elements?"


Avoron wrote:
How about life? Death? Time? Gravity? Entropy?

The first two are usually covered (YMMV) by Positive Energy and Negative Energy.

* Fire: Fire, Heat (partly).
* Water: Fog/Mist/Vapor, Water, Ice, Auditive Illusions.
* Air: Air/Wind, Cold, Heat (partly), Lightning, Sonic.
* Earth: Earth, Mud... maybe many of the minerals.
* Light: Light, Visual Illusions.
* Darkness: Darkness, Shadow.
* Acid.
* Alkali.
* Life.
* Dead/Death.
* Gravity, Time, ...
* Chaos, Entropy, ...
* Law/Order.
* Aether, Spirit, Soul, ...


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Avoron wrote:

How about life? Death? Time? Gravity? Entropy?

Since when has anyone called those (or "aether" or "sonic") "elements?"

Final Fantasy and quite a few other VG and TT RPG

Scarab Sages

KM WolfMaw wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Avoron wrote:

How about life? Death? Time? Gravity? Entropy?

Since when has anyone called those (or "aether" or "sonic") "elements?"
Final Fantasy and quite a few other VG and TT RPG

That doesn't count. Seriously. Let's have some standards.


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Avoron wrote:

How about life? Death? Time? Gravity? Entropy?

Since when has anyone called those (or "aether" or "sonic") "elements?"

Well, for aether, I believe the concept dates back to about 350 BC, when Aristotle introduced the concept...though it wasn't initially called aether by him. Essentially, though, it was the element of the heavens, since to them - unlike terrestrial elements - it seemed that the heavens were unchanging and eternal, and thus must fundamentally be made up of some other sort of substance than the usual four elements. He believed terrestrial elements moved linearly and were subject to change over time, but the first element was not subject to change and moved circularly. It was later known as quintessence, and important to alchemical philosophy in this regard. In Indian cosmology, the term akasha is roughly equivalent, and void in the Japanese godai, though there is a more spiritual element to void, representing things beyond our normal experience...but it is similarly the highest element that represents the heavens.


Luthorne wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Avoron wrote:

How about life? Death? Time? Gravity? Entropy?

Since when has anyone called those (or "aether" or "sonic") "elements?"
Well, for aether, I believe the concept dates back to about 350 BC, when Aristotle introduced the concept...though it wasn't initially called aether by him. Essentially, though, it was the element of the heavens, since to them - unlike terrestrial elements - it seemed that the heavens were unchanging and eternal, and thus must fundamentally be made up of some other sort of substance than the usual four elements. He believed terrestrial elements moved linearly and were subject to change over time, but the first element was not subject to change and moved circularly. It was later known as quintessence, and important to alchemical philosophy in this regard. In Indian cosmology, the term akasha is roughly equivalent, and void in the Japanese godai, though there is a more spiritual element to void, representing things beyond our normal experience...but it is similarly the highest element that represents the heavens.

Well... would not the Kineticist (Aether) provide a basis for inclusion of Aether an elemental school?

PRD wrote:


Kineticists who focus on the element of aether—a rare substance formed when elemental energy affects the Ethereal Plane—are called telekineticists. Telekineticists use strands of aether to move objects with their minds.

Granted it's a quasi-elemental substance mixing "elemental energy" (untyped or non-specific elemental substance?) with the Ethereal Plane, but it's something.


Dave Justus wrote:

The elemental schools come from different real world cultural views of the elements.

The Greek: Earth, Air, Water, Fire
The Chinese: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water
The Japanese: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void

I couldn't help but think of the old United States cartoon, Captain Planet, and the theme song reading this! :)


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quintessentially Me wrote:

Well... would not the Kineticist (Aether) provide a basis for inclusion of Aether an elemental school?

PRD wrote:


Kineticists who focus on the element of aether—a rare substance formed when elemental energy affects the Ethereal Plane—are called telekineticists. Telekineticists use strands of aether to move objects with their minds.
Granted it's a quasi-elemental substance mixing "elemental energy" (untyped or non-specific elemental substance?) with the Ethereal Plane, but it's something.

Well, in my opinion, while telekinesis is cool, the kineticist's aether element has nothing to do with aether, and the fact that we have a void school already makes me think it's unnecessary to have an aether school for the wizard...just call it aether for games/characters more founded in Greco-Roman roots.


Aether/Ether is sometime referred as the fourth state of matter, and kinda goes with:

Earth = Solid.
Water = Liquid/fluid.
Air = Air/Gas
Fire = Aether/Ether/Energy.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Xuldarinar wrote:

We are missing the Medieval Alchemical elements of Mercury, Salt, and Sulphur.

This I could get behind!

Xuldarinar wrote:


We could also use exploration of the four humors: Black Bile (Earth), Yellow Bile (Fire), Phlegm (Water), and Blood (Air).
Since when has Blood been Air and Yellow Bile been Fire? My original source had it the other way around (although I saw White Wolf's PROMETHEAN: THE CREATED arranged them your way).

Maybe due to burning sensation in the throat? Or the fact that I know I was super pissed back when I suffered a condition that caused me to dry heave until I released yellow bile (god, I kept entire 2 liter bottles of water... and used them thoroughly).


Chelonium? Narrativium? Phlogiston?


Administratium


Wonderflonium


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:

The elemental schools come from different real world cultural views of the elements.

The Greek: Earth, Air, Water, Fire
The Chinese: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water
The Japanese: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void

And...I would have hoped that would be common knowledge on here. The only thing more that *might* be considered a legitimate 8th school is "Thought/Spirit."

Of course, if you REALLY want more Elemental Schools, there is a great deal of room for expansion....

Do we REALLY want a Seikon no Qwaser knockoff in Pathfinder?


I propose 'succubus grapples' as an element.


Gnick Gnak PaddyWack wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:

The elemental schools come from different real world cultural views of the elements.

The Greek: Earth, Air, Water, Fire
The Chinese: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water
The Japanese: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void

I couldn't help but think of the old United States cartoon, Captain Planet, and the theme song reading this! :)

So now you'll be asking for the School of Heart?


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Gnick Gnak PaddyWack wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:

The elemental schools come from different real world cultural views of the elements.

The Greek: Earth, Air, Water, Fire
The Chinese: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water
The Japanese: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void

I couldn't help but think of the old United States cartoon, Captain Planet, and the theme song reading this! :)
So now you'll be asking for the School of Heart?

Agreed, Heart is the most powerful, too broken.

He can make people give him money (we see this in alternate future where he is a bum, he is lazy but not evil luckily).

He can control anything. He can use Suggestion at will. Telepathy also.

He can knock out people by "forcing him to look into his own dark heart." So Enchantment school in general he has.


Boron.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Avoron wrote:

How about life? Death? Time? Gravity? Entropy?

Since when has anyone called those (or "aether" or "sonic") "elements?"

For "aether," at least since Aristotle.

SameFormula wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:

The elemental schools come from different real world cultural views of the elements.

The Greek: Earth, Air, Water, Fire
The Chinese: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, Water
The Japanese: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void

And...I would have hoped that would be common knowledge on here.

Common, but wrong.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element[/url]

All the non-Chinese systems are basically the same apart from the medieval set having sulfur, mercury, and salt.

Pathfinder does handle Chinese elements incorrectly, though. The opposed elements are different in that system and the shared elements needed to be revised to allow the Chinese choices of opposition elements (fire-metal, water-earth, earth-wood, and earth-water).

Dark Archive

Phlogiston? Luminiferous Ether?


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Lepton, Antilepton, Quark, Antiquark, and Boson? Hard to get more elementary than that...well, unless you're going for Superstring Theory.

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