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Talk to me a while, please, about sessions/campaigns/settings etc where the players (for at least the first 5 or so levels) are primarily attempting to SURVIVE.
Pitted against dinosaurs, cataclysms, ruthless ravagers, famine, etc.....
Have you run/played such a campaign? how did it go?
my main worry is in a normal campaign where ppl are after the usual (power, glory, fame, riches etc) if you fail - "oh well!"
where as if you fail at surviving you die!
Done correctly I think it might be fun, but I don't want it to decent into a whole party death on 1st session....
I think this is something a lot of games are missing to one extent or the other is the danger factor. There is nothing that makes the value of a character shine is seeing the loss of another PC. Don't be afraid of it. But, make sure your players are OK with a possible TPK.
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On the other hand, it could be annoying to go five levels where your biggest achievement is being able to say "I'm not dead yet." Individual tastes may vary, but I suspect most of us play to be heroes. To rescue those in need of rescuing etc. To excel.
While an encounter or two, or even a session that is grueling is fine, I wouldn't enjoy a sustained survivalfest.
The only thing I know of that touches on this was an idea of what basically amounts to having the PCs involved in a fantasy terrorist attack.
Start the session off with a more normal 'they walk into a bar' scene. Only, halfway through, they start hearing the explosions and cries of innocent.
The basic idea is that a group of mad mages have sent flying creatures over the town, dumping thousands of sheets of paper with exploding runes into the town square (particularly effective if there was a parade or festival going on).
Thus, the problem is simple- get out of there without blowing yourself up. Of course, you can't just close your eyes and stumble around, since someone else nearby might accidentally look and get you caught in the explosion.
Imagine risking dozen of 6d6. Every step could be your last. The sense of powerlessness and rage as you see innocent women and children caught in the blasts. It can make a nice start to a campaign since it makes the antagonist an immediate priority that gets the PC's immediate animosity and attention. The small sample of 'survival' before getting to any place that could lead to 'heroism' makes the latter all the sweeter.
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Book 1 of Serpent's Skull provides a good bridge between "just surviving" and still getting to be heroes.
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I think this is something a lot of games are missing to one extent or the other is the danger factor. There is nothing that makes the value of a character shine is seeing the loss of another PC. Don't be afraid of it. But, make sure your players are OK with a possible TPK.
dude... is your name actually "TPK" ???? hahahahahaha
no wonder you have that attitude - one I really admire, to be honest; thanks man....|
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The only thing I know of that touches on this was an idea of what basically amounts to having the PCs involved in a fantasy terrorist attack.
Start the session off with a more normal 'they walk into a bar' scene. Only, halfway through, they start hearing the explosions and cries of innocent.
The basic idea is that a group of mad mages have sent flying creatures over the town, dumping thousands of sheets of paper with exploding runes into the town square (particularly effective if there was a parade or festival going on).
Thus, the problem is simple- get out of there without blowing yourself up. Of course, you can't just close your eyes and stumble around, since someone else nearby might accidentally look and get you caught in the explosion.
Imagine risking dozen of 6d6. Every step could be your last. The sense of powerlessness and rage as you see innocent women and children caught in the blasts. It can make a nice start to a campaign since it makes the antagonist an immediate priority that gets the PC's immediate animosity and attention. The small sample of 'survival' before getting to any place that could lead to 'heroism' makes the latter all the sweeter.
that brief description you gave is utterly hideous..... sounds amazing!
Seems like most of my games I struggle to survive O.o
I'm currently playing a 2nd level Dhampir... with Toughness... who has 13 hps. He spends a LOT of time trying to stay alive.
Wrath of the Righteous starts similarly with a massive attack and the PCs have to find a way out.
Ruyan.
Seems like most of my games I struggle to survive O.o
I'm currently playing a 2nd level Dhampir... with Toughness... who has 13 hps. He spends a LOT of time trying to stay alive.
a Dhampir what? Barbarian? or Sorcerer?
;-)
Level one Inquisitor... max hp and toughness getting him to 12.
second level Unarmed Fighter... rolled a 1. No Con to speak of, non-favored class. It was a heartbreak of a roll.
Especially fun when normal healing won't work... but on the plus side he has his very own wand of inflict light wounds that he doesn't have to share...
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Seems like most of my games I struggle to survive O.o
I'm currently playing a 2nd level Dhampir... with Toughness... who has 13 hps. He spends a LOT of time trying to stay alive.
a Dhampir what? Barbarian? or Sorcerer?
;-)Level one Inquisitor... max hp and toughness getting him to 12.
second level Unarmed Fighter... rolled a 1. No Con to speak of, non-favored class. It was a heartbreak of a roll.
Especially fun when normal healing won't work... but on the plus side he has his very own wand of inflict light wounds that he doesn't have to share...
heh luxury! Wand? level 2? LUXURY!!! :-P
heh luxury! Wand? level 2? LUXURY!!! :-PSeems like most of my games I struggle to survive O.o
I'm currently playing a 2nd level Dhampir... with Toughness... who has 13 hps. He spends a LOT of time trying to stay alive.
a Dhampir what? Barbarian? or Sorcerer?
;-)Level one Inquisitor... max hp and toughness getting him to 12.
second level Unarmed Fighter... rolled a 1. No Con to speak of, non-favored class. It was a heartbreak of a roll.
Especially fun when normal healing won't work... but on the plus side he has his very own wand of inflict light wounds that he doesn't have to share...
Truth! We're mixing some PFS scenarios with Shattered star... so we're gonna take xp breaks at various times in the campaign.. yet we still get some loot and prestige for the scenarios.
We're gonna be a bit over wealth by level, but spend a LONG time at level 2... I used some prestige points to get the wand. It's been a lifesaver.
When I encounter this sort of thing it is generally with a DM who decides that the PCs start off without any adventuring equipment. Sometimes that can be a fun situation like, "You've been shipwrecked! Learn to survive on a mysterious island and eventually make your way back to civilization." or a not so fun situation like, "You wake up to the light of a comet and the sound of people screaming. You're in your pajamas, and the zombie apocalypse has begun!" (I guess what's "fun" here is a matter of taste)
Improvising equipment and solutions can be interesting though I'd like to try a game where the PCs have limited equipment and need to make the most of it rather than basically just the clothes on their backs. Maybe one PC would be a woodsman who has an axe and another could have a rope, etc
The only thing I know of that touches on this was an idea of what basically amounts to having the PCs involved in a fantasy terrorist attack.that brief description you gave is utterly hideous..... sounds amazing!
Oh yes. It gives a lot of meaning to taking down the villains. Even if you never pull anything like that again... it sticks with the players. Particularly if you continue to show the after effects.
The neighborhood is rendered practically unlivable- because it is like having land mines everywhere- you are never sure if there isn't jut one hidden behind a box. There can be clean up operations... but the place is pretty much destined to be a slum for years to come since no one would willingly live there. So you can easily have orphans or people rendered homeless here and there, all displaced by that single event.
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The game itself doesn't really lend itself well to this kind of gameplay. Surviving implies facing outlandish threats and somehow getting away. But pathfinder and dnd before it have a problem with that. Generally By the time you realize a threat is too big to manage, someone is down, if not dead. There are no straight forward measures of power or threat.
In addition to that, things like keeping warm, feeding yourself, building a shelter are set up as die rolls and generally meant to be glossed over 90% of the time. A campaign based on that is sort of like a campaign with traps every 5 feet. Chances are it devolves into one person rolling a die, seeing the result and you either move on or everyone takes some damage and you move on.
Settings can't fix this. Its an issue with the fundamental nature of the game. You can make a hardmode campaign sure, but in terms of actual threats to survival, it becomes really tedious really fast, or you spend a lot of time building new characters or hunting for Resurrection materials.
I think this is something a lot of games are missing to one extent or the other is the danger factor. There is nothing that makes the value of a character shine is seeing the loss of another PC. Don't be afraid of it. But, make sure your players are OK with a possible TPK.
dude... is your name actually "TPK" ???? hahahahahaha
no wonder you have that attitude - one I really admire, to be honest; thanks man....
Yeah, you wipe out a party of Werewolves in the opening scenes of a WOD game and no one lets you forget it. But, I say this because I really do like a gritty game. If at no time during a session do I have a true concern that my character might not make it then MEH... But, if PCs are dropping like flies and I am watching the dice like a hawk praying I don't get one shotted, and NOW we have a game.
Yeah, you wipe out a party of Werewolves in the opening scenes of a WOD game and no one lets you forget it. But, I say this because I really do like a gritty game. If at no time during a session do I have a true concern that my character might not make it then MEH... But, if PCs are dropping like flies and I am watching the dice like a hawk praying I don't get one shotted, and NOW we have a game.I think this is something a lot of games are missing to one extent or the other is the danger factor. There is nothing that makes the value of a character shine is seeing the loss of another PC. Don't be afraid of it. But, make sure your players are OK with a possible TPK.
dude... is your name actually "TPK" ???? hahahahahaha
no wonder you have that attitude - one I really admire, to be honest; thanks man....
There isnt really anything wrong with wanting that sort of environment for a game. Its just particularly difficult to do right without fudging stuff in pathfinder. I mean my aim for important encounters is always to make the players think they will lose, but for them to pull it out in the end, but its not easy to pull off with the all or nothing way the game operates.
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thank you again all for your contributions. Rummaging through the various boards I find other's have asked similar questions with interesting takes off every1. I'm also hoping to being back some good-old-maybe-forgotten important skills: Survival, Craft, Know(geography/nature) and the amazing skill: HEAL!
Honestly, OD&D was more geared to this kind of game. When Gygax ran it, you weren't really supposed to be going through a story with a plot. It was a contest to see how much gold you could get out of a dungeon and how long you could keep a character alive. The idea that your character could die at any moment was expected, and you could roll up a new one reasonably quickly, which is a must in a high-lethality, high-combat game.
Part of the problem with this kind of adventure, beyond the system not doing a great job of mapping it, is that it's very different from a regular game of Pathfinder. You need to make sure your players are on-board with the idea, otherwise they're going to wonder why they're not actually accomplishing anything.
In a regular game of Pathfinder, not only does the system kind of work against this (for the reasons already mentioned), but the expectations are different. Survival is very rarely a goal in-and-of-itself. You usually have some sort of quest you're on, a long-term goal that you're surviving for. If you don't make it very clear before the game starts that their only goal is to survive, then they're going to wonder when the actual adventure is going to start.
Which isn't to say that it can't be fun, but it's something you need to want to play for it to be fun. Otherwise it's just frustrating.
I've done this twice, three times if you count Skulls & Shackles.
One time was a setting of ice-age-primitives, very low magic setting. With primitive materials, weapons did less damage, and being 2nd ed, this really changed DPR bigtime. Roleplay was OK, but combat sucked.
The other was Dark Sun 2nd ed. Also low magic, but that also applied to available spells and spell levels. The environment was so killer. that characters started at 3rd level in order to avoid TPK on session 1. The setting was unusual enough, that it made up for low magic, and it had a very different feel to it.
That said, I must confess that I prefer high magic item settings. [One of the problems with 4th was wimpy and way to expensive magic items. An extra kick in limited situations for 1d4 step(s) up in magic and 5 steps for a +1 way too much.]
/cevah
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I think it can be done in PF, but it's quite a challenge for the GM to pull off. Some things that come to mind:
- Go watch some movies about 'survival': figure out what they're doing there. It's not just rolling a lot of fortitude checks. It's stuff like "cross the raptor-infested shrubs to get the shield generator working again", "find a car that still has fuel in it in this ghost town", "get the part we need to get the radio working so we can call in a helicopter extraction", "get to the pharmacy because we need desinfectant or Bob will turn into a zombie", or "we need to climb this hill to seek shelter in the creepy-looking house before the blizzard buries us".
So the thing is that you need to break down "survival" into a bunch of miniquests that need "doing" instead of environmental effects that need "sitting out".
- When running from monsters, there needs to be a sense of progress too. It can be plotting a route to get to the exit point, picking which of two monsters you'd rather try to find your way past. Or it can be running from a monster until you manage to dig up a weapon that can be used to turn the tables and defeat it. But it needs to be more than just running all the time.
- There should be both successes, failures, setbacks, windfalls, uncertainty, and hope.
A success is something the PCs set out to do that they manage to do. A failure is when they don't. Failure probably entails loss of resources, worsening of the situation, injury, time loss.
Setbacks are new problems that make the situation worse by introducing a new threat, presenting a new problem that must be solved, or suddenly taking away a resource.
Windfalls are the opposite of setbacks; they're unexpected improvements. Like finding a corpse with a lot of unspent ammo, or a radio broadcast that provides useful information.
Uncertainty Players should have an idea about what needs/can be done and what not; and whether some new development is good or bad. But they don't know for sure. If they spot a corpse carrying gear it could be good (gear) or bad (infectious) or both. Radio broadcasts should be crackly and incomplete. The nature and scale of the "enemy" (weather, monsters) is never quite known. The players don't know the answer to "how much more" - wean them off the idea that a typical day has X CR Y encounters in it.
Hope is crucial. Otherwise it's just a grind and players want it to be over because they don't see the point. If one door closes ("bridge is out") another one should open ("hey, look, a rubber boat, hopefully not too leaky"). There needs to be an eventual perspective: escape, or gaining control of the situation. Finding a "cure" or a way to self-destruct all the robots. Establishing comfortable living on a deserted island (after exterminating all the maneaters). Sending a message home and holding out long enough to be rescued.
- Don't make it all or nothing. Every failure on the PCs should make things worse (if only because they tried, wasted resources, and didn't get a success), but not end them.
A good survival story is about the heroes trying to make it to "the finish" while their condition gets worse and worse. Not about them making one mistake and suddenly all dying.
So plan every encounter with a monster with an idea of how the PCs could get away from it alive, or what freak coincidence may allow them to extract an unconscious PC while the monster is momentarily distracted (by something even bigger and nastier).
And don't use save or die; use save or ability damage instead.
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There are many good suggestions in this thread. I agree with the "ability score loss" vs save vs death...it gives an impending sense of impairment and doom that descends into death, vs death by single die roll. Also, making up "resource pools" or progress time tables from abilities, while kind of ad lib and not able to be pulled from a book, can add to the enjoyment and suspense of being forced, as a player, to deal with previously mundane tasks involved in survival situations.
There are many who enjoy "being a hero", and I can understand the enjoyment of such a game...however there is definitely something to be said for, and many players who prefer, a more challenging game, where you actually have a risk of failure. Survival themed games can add to that aspect...or as I prefer, every game can be a game of survival.
Ran an alien invasion game not long ago where the PCs were all normal 2nd level humans at a wedding when alien infested meteors hit. The game played out a lot like Falling Skies (I used modified Mi-Go from Cthulhu mythos).
I think the survival aspect needs to evolve in order for such a game to continue past a few adventures. The PCs started out immediately with survival, went on to exploration, then into organization. Eventually they were part of the elite team that scored the first large victory against the aliens, at which point the campaign ended.
Depending on your players, it can also be important to let them know that, while you're depriving them of some resources up front, eventually they'll be able to have that cool item, ability, or whatever that they really envision the character having. Such things can actually be great rewards in a story where treasure hunting is a non-starter.
...a fun situation like, "You've been shipwrecked! Learn to survive on a mysterious island and eventually make your way back to civilization."...
Dude. DUDE. I would be f#$%ing DOWN for a Robinson Crusoe game. That would be badass.
On the other hand, it could be annoying to go five levels where your biggest achievement is being able to say "I'm not dead yet." Individual tastes may vary, but I suspect most of us play to be heroes. To rescue those in need of rescuing etc. To excel.
As a serial roguelike player, I take great pleasure in being able to say "I'm not dead yet."
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@Hazrond - Since people often have a hard time being serious in RPGs I suspect it might end up more like "Gilligan's Island" than "Robinson Crusoe" "Hell in the Pacific", but I think it could be fun either way.
Obviously, there are some people who are more interested in it than others, which is a good reflection of how running such a game would go: some would love it, and others wouldn't. The best thing to do, as so many have said, is to gauge player interest in such a thing before springing it on them.
Obviously the most realistic "survival" campaign would have the players not knowing it's coming and being forced to "make do" with their current abilities and equipment; the entire party is geared up for a horseback trek through a forest but you spring something on them and suddenly their in the middle of a freezing mountain range. No one has snowshoes, winter coats, climbing gear. Their plans to "live of the land" in the forest won't work so well in their current situation, so they are probably short on rations. This is an easy way to a TPK.
So, the more workable method would be to let them know what is coming. Let them know that fortitude checks, endurance checks, etc. are going to be the norm. You don't have to spell out every skill check they will ever need; they will have to try and prepare for lots of situations. Expect to see more skill monkeys in such a campaign.
Also, you have to decide how much or how little magic you want to be involved. A single teleport spell kind of negates any kind of "lost" scenario. Ditto for an endure elements spell in a hot/cold environment. A Sustaining Spoon kind of ends any worries about food.
Speaking of items, you should also be up front about what gear they can and can't have and/or will and won't have access to. If everyone makes their character and picks out all the best survival gear they can find, only to have you say "oh yeah, all your supplies sank with the ship", not only did they waste a bunch of time picking their equipment, but now they feel shorted when it comes to being prepared. If you want them to be low on supplies, let them know they won't be able to count on having access to certain things. Or maybe play the whole "if you were stuck on an island, what are the 3 objects you'd want with you" kind of thing. Maybe give them each 1 of those, and have the other 2 scattered on the island that they might be able to find. Crafting could be a big deal because they could fashion a knife from some stone or a shell, then maybe a haft from some sticks, then an axe, then a spear, etc. All of which takes time, which is also typically a resource in a survival scenario, so it would be up to them if it was worth it to invest the time in such an attempt.
:smurfatar:
The 3.5 campaign world Midnight does this quite well.
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I think another issue is avoiding monotony. The Endurance feat is nice to have in a survival game of course, but you can't really create an exciting evening out of 20 fortitude saves to avoid frostbite.
Instead, your game is about getting to the monastery atop the creepy hard-to-climb mountain to first clear the place of some zombies, then to deal with toe rogue getting a rotting disease turning him into a creepy zombie with more class levels than anyone is happy with, while also trying to figure out the library to research a ritual to stop the zombification plague on the land, prepping for the inevitable mass assault of zombies, a ghost that rejuvenates every day and so has to be fought again and again until someone figures out a way to lay it to rest. And there's the henchmen having nervous breakdowns. And of course food stores are running out so can the cleric please "waste" spell slots on Create Food instead of say, Remove Disease?
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Talk to me a while, please, about sessions/campaigns/settings etc where the players (for at least the first 5 or so levels) are primarily attempting to SURVIVE.
Pitted against dinosaurs, cataclysms, ruthless ravagers, famine, etc.....
Have you run/played such a campaign? how did it go?my main worry is in a normal campaign where ppl are after the usual (power, glory, fame, riches etc) if you fail - "oh well!"
where as if you fail at surviving you die!Done correctly I think it might be fun, but I don't want it to decent into a whole party death on 1st session....
If I want to play a game of "Don't Starve" I'd buy it.
Talk to me a while, please, about sessions/campaigns/settings etc where the players (for at least the first 5 or so levels) are primarily attempting to SURVIVE.
Pitted against dinosaurs, cataclysms, ruthless ravagers, famine, etc.....
Have you run/played such a campaign? how did it go?my main worry is in a normal campaign where ppl are after the usual (power, glory, fame, riches etc) if you fail - "oh well!"
where as if you fail at surviving you die!Done correctly I think it might be fun, but I don't want it to decent into a whole party death on 1st session....
I've been in campaigns with a similar feel to what you're aiming for (gritty, desperate, barely-staying-alive)... and it was briefly entertaining.
Briefly.
The main issues are as follows:
- 1) Unless you are fudging things to keep the PCs alive, at some point you will TPK the party and the game will end. The game is designed such that if you raise the bar from "you will win" to "you will survive" as default, random chance will push the party past the point of no return at some point. And the PCs will eventually notice the fudging, which in turn changes the tone of the game.
2) Constantly chewing glass, no matter what the PCs do to improve their situation, or how they improve, removes the feeling of progress or achievement. In a short game (say 3-6 sessions) this isn't really an issue, but if you try to run it for a longer period and most players will get frustrated with it (unless they're really into that kind of thing). Especially if there is fudging to keep them alive going on, and they've noticed.
3) The system isn't designed to actually make survival games work. If you want to survive more than 1 'moderately challenging' combat every few days, you need magic. If you have magic, you trivialize environmental concerns like eating, drinking, and weather within a couple of levels.
Really, for running something like this you're much better off with a non-level based system, and preferably one that avoids the magical toolbox effect that is Pathfinder spellcasting.
That's my 2c anyway :)
Hmmm. So from what I can divine, your intentions are to formulate a setting in which the party is trying to survive within a large wilderness area? Fair enough, sounds quite enjoyable. One piece of advice I can give is to pre-prepare encounters. If they stay within a set area, I would say that they'll probably travel between map tiles yeah? If that's' the way it's going to be, I'd set up their surroundings in advance, and decide on what creatures inhabit what map chunk in advance as well. For example, on large map tile is inhabited by a female owl bear and its cubs, as well as a small tribe of kobolds. When they enter that map tile, you roll, to see if they encounter either. The exact quantity is up to you, but I'd say that you roll twice an ingame day to see if they encounter the regions inhabitants. Of course I could be completely misconstruing this, and this isn't what you have in mind at all. Out of curiosity, and idea what classes and races the party's planning to be?