Fighter still the top archer for sheer damage output?
Can any others come close / give more seriously cool stuff?
PS: I've been looking at urban bloodrager for spells and bloodrage powers,but i'm concerned that it wont be able to come close, thoughts?
Edit: Level 6-8 range PFS legal if possible
You need to give a level or two to compare at. Otherwise you get crazy stuff. Like 1 class is awesome, but only at lv20, it sucks up to lv19, but it wins any archery competitions at lv20.
Also you should specify what you mean by top. Are you wanting solely DPR? How do we weight non-DPR "cool stuff"?
Archery is strong enough in general, that even a 2nd rate archer can compete favorably against most other things most of the time.
I wouldn't worry much about not doing enough DPR.
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I will always stand by the alchemist (grenadier) archer myself. For a 1 shot/sniper, it provides the most bang for your buck with alchemical weapon, and it provides an easy way to make interesting arrows.
Let me just quote myself from another thread.
As far as a Green Arrow (and Hawkeye) build, Grenadier Alchemist is actually amazing for this. First we're taking the durable and tangleshots along with raining arrows, and now we're stacking Alchemical Weapon on top of those to combine our arrows with alchemical items. Now you could have a tangleshot acid arrow, a raining burst jar arrow, or any other combination like that, not to mention whatever weapon blanch you need to solve the problem. You can only alchemical weapon 1 arrow a round, so make it count!
Oh, and pick up hybridization funnel and you can combine splash weapons, so now you can double up on the alchemical goodness. Let's not forget you're getting intelligence on damage for all of these too since they're a splash weapon.
EDIT: Curious if you could go concentrated splash to up damage from the splash weapon even more, although it won't work on your bomb. If your GM rules fusing a splash weapon with your arrow no longer allows it to count as a splash weapon, you can still get int to damage from the next step.
Grenadier Alchemist is your 'style' archer, and we're not even done yet. Now let's combo explosive missile onto all of this sexy mess, and now you can combine a bomb (and a bomb discovery) onto that entire slew with a standard action. Now you could combine that all with a frost bomb for stagger, tangleshot to ignore the restrictions of entangling only large and smaller creatures, or anything else.
So to recap, we're looking at:
-Arrow (tangleshot, durable, or raining)
-Weapon Blanch (any metal or ghostsalt)
-Alchemical Item (any splash weapon, our options are pretty wide)
-Explosive Missile (almost any bomb discovery, this is intense)Giving us 4 different ways to customize a single arrow. Oh, also 6th level extract casting, but that could only help buff you even more before letting the arrows fly, nothing too important there.
I think Warpriests with Air Blessing get some crazy stuff for archery. Even if they probably don't do quite as much damage, they come close and get spells to boot.
Zen Archer Monk almost needs no introduction in a thread like this, for good reason.
Things like Bards and Inquisitors make good archers with skills and spell power, but they don't even approach the big boys from a damage output perspective.
I agree that there needs to be a set level we're aiming for here. Things change quite a bit over 20 levels.
Lets say I want the maximum damage possible around the level 6-8 range.
(but i mean i dont mind sacrificing a couple of points of damage if it gets traded for LOADS of utility stuff, and i like hearing about stuff people like, such as that air warpriest, shall look into that too if its any good. I generally dont have much love for tripping and maneuvers, though thats just me being stubborn.)
A ranking of top dpr in this level bracket would be great, top 3 or so, then i'll feel like I still have a crazy damage character, but still have a little choice. So many options in PF nowadays.
Do you want only solo class builds to level 8 or are multi-classed builds okay?
Do you want only solo class builds to level 8 or are multi-classed builds okay?
Good question, I'm looking for something that stays good up to level 20, and I'd like to keep things fairly simple, but i'm not against dipping or multiclassing per-se.
I'd say mainly solo class, but mention if a dip or something can really help.
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It's pretty hard to weigh some of the different archery builds against each other. A paladin using smite is pretty hard to beat, but not exceptional when not smiting. Similarly an inquisitor can be quite good with fate's favored and bane going, but without one, or both of those is going to suffer. Ditto ranger and favored enemy.
Fighter is pretty solid because most, if not all of his boosts to power are always on, and are pretty good. Most other classes are pretty good but usually require limited resource class abilities to really excel. Urban bloodrager is a bit of an oddball. Most class features raise attack and damage at the same time, and while it's certainly possible to do so with a bloodrager, choosing to boost both strength and dexterity, it's likely a better choice to just raise dexterity. I can see an urban bloodrager being incredibly accurate at archery, but I don't think it will necessarily be better than most other choices because I don't see a lot of ways to boost damage that aren't an either/or type situation where you're trading damage for accuracy.
As for best in the 6-8 range, you're probably looking at Fighter, Zen Archer and Slayer for best round to round DPR. Best spiking classes are likely Ranger, Paladin and Inquisitor. Best versatile classes are likely Alchemist, Bard and Inquisitor, with an honorable mention to the warpriest in every category.
So a good question is, are you just looking for DPR? Or is there anything else you want to do with the build?
Hmm... i'm quite fond of inquisitors lately, so i'd be interested in any builds for that to be honest, hopefully it wont conflict with one of my favorite flavor archetypes, the relic hunter, though if it does, then maybe not inquisitor, I dont know, so many people responded so quickly!
Edit: rereading your post you mention bane, so it would conflict.
(Also, WOW, make an archery thread and the community explodes.)
I'm looking to do DPR without worrying about anything complex, for the purpose of this discussion, I'm looking for sheer damage, if i want to I want to say "enough" in combat and start obliterating enemies, even if I cant do that many times per day, but at the same time I want to be sure I can do it enough to survive a day.
Consistant DPR will most likely be an Arsenal Chaplan Warpriest or Mutation Warrior Fighter.
WP at lv6 you're looking at all the archery feats, divine favor for +3s with the trait, sacred weapon enhancement bonus and weapon training.
F at lv6 is mutagen for either +2 to attack or damage, weapon training, and all the archery feats and weapon specialization.
another that maybe can work is going Halfling Medium, it's harder to get the feats, but you get some really good bonuses to attack and damage.
Dip mention. Primal Hunter Barbarian. You get a +2 to ranged attacks and to damage from the str boost.
Hmm... i'm quite fond of inquisitors lately, so i'd be interested in any builds for that to be honest, hopefully it wont conflict with one of my favorite flavor archetypes, the relic hunter, though if it does, then maybe not inquisitor, I dont know, so many people responded so quickly!
Edit: rereading your post you mention bane, so it would conflict.(Also, WOW, make an archery thread and the community explodes.)
Relic hunter can have bane with the transmutation base power, legacy weapon.
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Consistant DPR will most likely be an Arsenal Chaplan Warpriest or Mutation Warrior Fighter.
You know, I completely forgot about the Arsenal Chaplain, which is weird, considering I'm playing one. But yes, it's a very strong build for archery, though it has less secondary abilities compared to a regular warpriest.
Consistant DPR will most likely be an Arsenal Chaplan Warpriest or Mutation Warrior Fighter.
WP at lv6 you're looking at all the archery feats, divine favor for +3s with the trait, sacred weapon enhancement bonus and weapon training.
F at lv6 is mutagen for either +2 to attack or damage, weapon training, and all the archery feats and weapon specialization.
another that maybe can work is going Halfling Medium, it's harder to get the feats, but you get some really good bonuses to attack and damage.
Dip mention. Primal Hunter Barbarian. You get a +2 to ranged attacks and to damage from the str boost.
All good stuff, i'd never even considered WP until this thread. And i'm glad to hear primal hunter barbarian is useful, i vaguely recall a lot of people damning its usefulness, but I always liked the flavor.
I am very curious what you can come up with with at least 5 levels of relic hunter inquisitor, and how well such a build would keep up with the giants of dpr between levels 6-8. (just because, yeah I like the relic hunter) If it isnt worth considering, do say so.
(meanwhile i'll have a look at WP, and yes, liking the mutation warrior too)
(only just clocked, halfling medium? why halfling? come to think of it, why medium??)
6 levels of relic hunter
Dex+4 and legacy weapon for +2
Lets have 1 of the +1's to be bane
So this is a +5 to accuracy for +9 with bab and +2+2d6 to damage.
This is all the class boosts you have and it takes a standard to do.
And that's the biggest drawback, the other options are able to full attack round 1, and you're delayed till round 2.
Also your needed feats are PBS, rapid shot, precise shot. If you're human you can get deadly aim. But you don't qualify for manyshot yet.
WP above is +5 to accuracy for +9 with bab and +4 to damage and then round 2 increasing when using sacred weapon.
F is +4 to accuracy for +10 with bab and +3 to damage with an extra attack.
6 levels of relic hunter
Dex+4 and legacy weapon for +2
Lets have 1 of the +1's to be bane
So this is a +5 to accuracy for +9 with bab and +2+2d6 to damage.
This is all the class boosts you have and it takes a standard to do.
And that's the biggest drawback, the other options are able to full attack round 1, and you're delayed till round 2.
Also your needed feats are PBS, rapid shot, precise shot. If you're human you can get deadly aim. But you don't qualify for manyshot yet.WP above is +5 to accuracy for +9 with bab and +4 to damage and then round 2 increasing when using sacred weapon.
F is +4 to accuracy for +10 with bab and +3 to damage with an extra attack.
Very cool. Shame about taking a turn to prep it, but the increase to damage is pretty nice. Dont suppose you could explain the "halfling medium" i have only glanced at the class before and archer never crossed my mind.
Edit: Do these damage/attack calcs factor in the transmutation resonant power?
Avanger Psychometrist (Vigilante) can be a very good archer if you accept spending a standard action for Legacy Weapon first.
And unlike the Relic Hunter you have full BAB. edi: and more feats.
I shall look into it, must admit ive looked at this archetype before, but shrugged it off when I saw it didnt give resonant powers (because that's all i was looking at it for at the time) curious to see how this stacks up compared to the others too.
halfling's FCB is +1/3 to seance boon. The medium going Champion gets +2 damge for seance boon. So halfing is +1 damage every 3 levels. Champions get a spirit bonus of +1 to attack and damage that goes up at lv4 and lv8. But you can increase it with a feat and increase it again with an armor enhancement. Also at lv6 you get a free full-bab attack
So at lv6 you're at +2 to hit and +6 to damage with an extra full bab attack. But you can go up another attack and damage next feat and about that time another from the armor enhancement.
it's not "the best" but I think it's comparable and different as you're a halfling.
Edit: Do these damage/attack calcs factor in the transmutation resonant power?6 levels of relic hunter
Dex+4 and legacy weapon for +2
Dex+4 is the resonant power. but it's really only netting you a +2 cause by lv6 people would have a +2 belt.
So the inquisitor with legacy weapon works, not the best, but good damage when you start attacking.
Top Archers (not in any particular order):
Fighter (non-archetyped or weapon master or mutation warrior, the archer archetype actually sucks)
Ranger/Slayer (ranger is actually better in my opinion since you have an animal companion for a mount and sneak attack doesn't work will with range). You can also get an archetype that trades the mount for always available damage bonuses (unlike Favored Enemy and more like the Slayer's ability), though I forget the name of the archetype.
Zen Archer
Honorable Mention: Inquisitor (especially Sanctified Slayer), it's not so great at the levels you mention but at higher levels (especially once you get Greater Bane) with all the buffs from Judgment and Divine Favor/Power you can output truly insane amounts of damage. You can also take certain domains to get an animal companion.
*Animal companions are important because it allows you to move and still full attack.
Edit: I would also like to add that a Zen Archer's DPR doesn't actually scale up as well as the other classes mentioned (IMO) it just happens to be a well rounded package that's very good at low levels. At higher levels it lacks the static bonuses to damage to keep up with other classes in terms of damage, but has an interesting bag of utility to defeat several problems often encountered.
Double Edit: Warpriest in general, and Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest in specific are very good at archery. It's like being a fighter with spells to buff yourself. Most importantly you get Weapon Training.
That's still a pretty awesome thing that i didnt expect would come from the medium.
Hate to ask it because you've already helped a lot (and i will be refering to this as i make 20 different builds over the next week) but can you mock up how the vigilante psychometrist stacks up too? (because you know, dem focus powers)
Thanks Clax I agree i dont like slayer much, but I might take a second look at the ranger, anything in particular I should look at when I do? (archetypes etc)
Thanks Olaf, I dont have much love for the bard, but I appreciate adding it to the list here. Looks pretty cool, I imagine that arcane strike would work well with bloodrager too.
Not winning any DPR races, I know, but you're buffing your party at the same time.
If you count the damage you are adding to the rest of the party, it might win the DPR race.
Thanks Clax I agree i dont like slayer much, but I might take a second look at the ranger, anything in particular I should look at when I do? (archetypes etc)
Thanks Olaf, I dont have much love for the bard, but I appreciate adding it to the list here. Looks pretty cool, I imagine that arcane strike would work well with bloodrager too.
If you're looking at Ranger's, look at this general guide, there are some things I would personally change but in general this is a good starting point. You might consider the freebooter archetype and I could swear there is one that gives you an ability that works like Slayer's Study target but can't find it.
Thanks again Claxx, if i'm getting an animal companion I might pick wayang (one of my fav races - Low speed, small etc really benefits from medium sized mount) and see if i can pick a spelless archetype because of their low wis.
Any calcs for how a psychometrist might stack up?
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One neat thing that all archers should know about is pheromone arrows. They give +2 to hit / +2 damage to anyone attacking something you hit with an arrow.
They work exceptionally well in conjunction with barbarians, who can get scent as a rage power.
Or half-orc, or alchemists/rangers/inquisitors, who all have ways of gaining scent.
As for ranger archetypes, I know a few people who really like the Ilsurian archer archetype. It basically trades spellcasting for a few bonus spells, and the ability to apply half your highest favored enemy bonus to all targets while using ranged weapons. It's okay, but it does trade out spellcasting, which means no instant enemy or bloodhound. Mind you +2 to attack and damage at level 5 is pretty good, I likely wouldn't build one for a high level game though.
EDIT - @Claxon, I think the Ilsurian archer is what you're thinking of.
One neat thing that all archers should know about is pheromone arrows. They give +2 to hit / +2 damage to anyone attacking something you hit with an arrow.
They work exceptionally well in conjunction with barbarians, who can get scent as a rage power.
Or half-orc, or alchemists/rangers/inquisitors, who all have ways of gaining scent.
As for ranger archetypes, I know a few people who really like the Ilsurian archer archetype. It basically trades spellcasting for a few bonus spells, and the ability to apply half your highest favored enemy bonus to all targets while using ranged weapons. It's okay, but it does trade out spellcasting, which means no instant enemy or bloodhound. Mind you +2 to attack and damage at level 5 is pretty good, I likely wouldn't build one for a high level game though.
EDIT - @Claxon, I think the Ilsurian archer is what you're thinking of.
Hah, ninja'd your post by a fraction of a second, but yes, spell-less archetype sounds pretty damn neat, ill check out the archetype in a second just to make sure it doesnt still need wis.
One of my prefered archetypes for ranger is Ilsurian archer archetype aka Divine Marksman.
It lets you use half your FE bonus on everyone.
I'll look into the ranger in a bit.
and yup vigilante seems like a completely crazy class to me.
I know they're new, but are there any vigilante archer builds worth pursuing, and how do they match up to other classes in terms of dpr?
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So, for a direct comparison between psychometrist and mutation warrior, which I'm assuming most will accept as a high benchmark for archers.
str 18 (14+4 resonant power)
dex 22 (18+2 level, +2 belt)
con 12
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 07
Feats
lvl 1 - point blank shot, precise shot
lvl 3 - rapid shot
lvl 4 - weapon focus (signature weapon)
lvl 5 - deadly aim
lvl 7 - manyshot
lvl 8 - weapon specialization (signature weapon), Point blank master (combat skill)
+13 to hit (8 bab, 6 dex, 2 enhancement, 1 pbs, 1 weapon focus, -2 rapid shot, -3 deadly aim)
19.5 damage average (4 str, 2 enhancement, 1 pbs, 2 weapon spec, 6 deadly aim, 4.5 damage die)
str 14
dex 22/26 (18+2 level, +2 belt, +4 mutagen)
con 14
int 12
wis 12
cha 07
Feats
lvl 1 - point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot
lvl 2 - deadly aim
lvl 3 - weapon focus
lvl 4 - weapon specialization
lvl 5 - point blank master
lvl 6 - many shot
lvl 7 - clustered shots
lvl 8 - greater weapon focus
+15 to hit (8 BAB, 6 Dex, 2 enhancement, 1 pbs, 2 weapon focus, 1 weapon training, -2 rapid shot, -3 deadly aim)
18.5 average damage (2 str, 2 enhancement, 1 pbs, 2 weapon specialization, 6 deadly aim, 1 weapon training, 4.5 damage die)
So the psychometrist is doing 19.5 average damage, with a +13 to hit without any activated abilities. The fighter is doing 18.5 average damage, with a +15 to hit without any activated abilities. On average the Psychometrist does 45.8 damage a round against level appropriate AC, the fighter does 50.9.
But both these classes have activated abilities, namely mutagen and focus power. The fighter should be getting +4 dex, and the vigilante will (likely) get +1 enhancement plus the bane ability. With both abilities active, the fighter has a +17 to hit, and does 18.5 average damage. The vigilante has a +16 to hit, with an average damage of 29.5.
Doing the math, the fighter now does 58.3 damage a round. The vigilante does 87 damage a round. The Vigilante does significantly more damage, but a couple things to remember, fighter does his damage starting round 1, doesn't rely on all enemies being the same type, also has cluster shots for DR/slashing, piercing or bludgeoning, and has a long duration buff that will last from fight to fight, possibly for all encounters that day without needing to be refreshed. Being a mutation warrior, he can probably also fly into the air round one and start firing down on opponents if they don't have a lot of ranged options. Psychometrist likely requires 2 rounds to buff and fly, and it takes 2 of his 6 daily mental focus points. Also, fighter's about to pick up another point of weapon training, and likely dueling gloves for a large increase in accuracy and damage.
All in all, it's not a bad build, but the vigilante does require that one round buffing, or good scouting when possible, or will be behind the fighter. Low health and reliance on int, or the extra mental focus feat do hurt the build as well, though it's perfectly acceptable to not get the highest resonant bonus available and still be effective.
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Of course, if you're looking at Vigilantes the stalker-type gets this beauty...
Sniper (Ex): The vigilante can deal hidden strike damage with ranged attacks at any distance, rather than within 30 feet. Only a stalker vigilante of at least 6th level can select this talent.
... which doesn't help for hack 'n' slash DPS, but does make you the best sniper in the game (to compare, the actual Sniper Archetype for the Rogue only gets the extend the maximum Sneak Attack range by 10ft at 3rd level and each 3 levels thereafter).
though it's perfectly acceptable to not get the highest resonant bonus available and still be effective.
Dont think they get resonant powers.
But you mentioned good scouting will help, so ill mention the amazing Mind Eye focus power.|
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though it's perfectly acceptable to not get the highest resonant bonus available and still be effective.Dont think they get resonant powers.
But you mentioned good scouting will help, so ill mention the amazing Mind Eye focus power.
You're absolutely right, they don't get resonant powers. I completely forgot about that. They can likely get by with less int, though 12 is probably still a good investment for the extra mental focus. So the vigilante likely does 1-2 less damage per hit, which means around 5-7 damage less per round.
You know, I knew they didn't get resonant powers, but was looking at an occultist build for comparison, and copying things it completely skipped my mind.
The Sohei can begin using flurry with a bow at level 6 when they pick up Weapon Training with it. They don't pick up all the particular goodies of the Zen Archer, but on the other hand they aren't barred from Manyshot. They can't get Point-Blank Master, but they don't lose regular flurry if needing to fight in melee. I worked out a 'Mongol' a while ago that went kind of like:
Sohei 6/ Fighter 2
Dual Talent Human: 16/18, 15/17, 14, 10, 12, 7.
1M. Quick Draw / +Mounted Skirmisher
2M. +Mounted Combat
3M. Point-Blank Shot
4M.
5M. Precise Shot
6M. +Mounted Archery
7F. +Rapid Shot / Deadly Aim
8F. +Manyshot
Where you can skirmish or shoot from a mount with Monastic Mount and Barkskin, wear mithral medium armor, and make Manyshot Flurry attacks.
I would say A inquisitor can make a pretty nasty archer. I have a Sanctified Slayer Archetype...The downside is a lot of floating modifiers (Working on some flashcards to keep it straight) This is PFS (wish I didn't do this spread) 14, 18/20, 10, 12, 16, 8... I did go with feather domain. Feats are Boon companion, coordinated shot, deadly aim, improved spell sharing, many shot, point blank, precise and rapid.. deadeye bowman and fate's favored.
So +2 hit/damage and misc skills from studied target, +1/+1 pb, +3/+3 divine favor, +1/0 or +2/0 from coordinated shot, +2/0 heroism, -2/0 rapid shot and -2/+4 deadly aim finally +2/+4 from my +2 seeking composite longbow (with greater magic weapon on it).... So hitting within point blank range at about +19(2 arrows)/+19/+14 and roughly 1D8+14 per arrow (+21/+21/+16 and 1D8+16+2D6 with bane) Clustered shot at 9 :) Not good with what that comes out at the end...but that isnt counting the cat either...while not as good he is doing around +13/+13/+13 and 1D8+9/1d6+9/1D6+9...without the pheromone arrow...come level 10 I'll have greater invisibility so I can sneak attack with the bow w/in 30ft. Yeah he should be riding the tiger or horse but lets not get silly :) For the most part the first round is marking a target and casting divine favor on myself/companion and send in the kitty...next round apply bane as needed...only lasts 5 rounds but how often does it last that long??