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Yeah that's quite fun to imagine that ^^.
Thanks anyway guys, I wonder now what's the best class/archetype to use those kind of tricks.

A crossblooded orc / dragon going dragon disciple ? Getting huge amounts of strength and spells to bullrush in every kind of ways?

You could even go full metamagic on hydraulic push, and get it quickened as lv 3 spells and still do some full attacks and/or normal bullrush shenanigans

Hello guys,

Well I was toying with the fighter's archetype named siegebreaker and was wondering, shall I go basic bull rush, or shield based bull rushes etc...

And then thought about spells like hydraulic push and torrents.

So my question is: does the siegebreaker first level ability work with the spell? Will I do my strength as extra damage?

Breaker Rush (Ex)

At 1st level, a siegebreaker can attempt bull rush or overrun combat maneuvers without provoking attacks of opportunity. When he performs either combat maneuver, he deals an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to his Strength bonus (minimum 1). If he has Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun, the damage dealt by the appropriate maneuver increases by 2 and he adds any enhancement bonus from his armor or shield (though such enhancement bonuses do not stack, if both armor and shield are magic).

This ability replaces the feat gained at 1st level.

Breaker Momentum (Ex)

At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action.

This ability replaces the feat gained at 2nd level.

And what about painfull collision ? Merciless rush etc?

Are you sure ferocious action is enough to not be disabled?
I have the feeling that you also need Ferocious resolve in order to not be disabled. Ferocious action, just allows to get rid of the staggered condition at the cost of hp.

Ferocious action was meant for orcs because they has Ferocity racial trait or the ferocity ability which is same name anyway as requirement.

Half orcs have : orc ferocity racial trait, which is a less powerful trait.

But what you can do is as an Half orc get the Ferocious Resolve, and gain the ferocity universal monster ability. This one is meant for half orcs because it has Half orc orc ferocity racial trait and con 13.

Ferocious Action:

Source Advanced Race Guide pg. 141
You ferocity is quick but shorter lived.

Prerequisites: Ferocity racial trait, orc.

Benefit: When you fall to 0 hit points or fewer, you lose 2 hit points each round, but you are not staggered. If you are in a rage (such as that caused by the barbarian rage class feature), you instead only lose 1 hit point per round.

Ferocious resolve:

Source Advanced Race Guide pg. 57
Your orc heritage allows you to fight on.

Prerequisites: Con 13, half-orc, orc ferocity racial trait.

Benefit: You gain the ferocity universal monster ability, allowing you to continue fighting at negative hit points. When using this ability, you gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.

Normal: A half-orc with the orc ferocity racial trait can fight for 1 more round after he is brought below 0 hit points.

So at this point I prefer having diehard which grants you the choice of being disabled (and auto stabilize) or not at least where ferocity forces you. This I can keep the sacred too and the fate's favored for +2 to all saves and diehard is also useful for other feat requirements.

And if you go Ferocious resolve, you can then go ferocious action but I prefer diehard + deathless initiate for the same effect but in way more powerfull version.

Wonderstell wrote:
Metux wrote:
Feat : Flagellant

Flagellant has the prerequisite of being a worshiper of Zon-Kuthon, which probably is more roleplaying baggage than you'd bargained for. Definitely not a deity for any hero, though.

Nooo, I couldn't see it in the pathbuilder application, just a religion requirement :(. Man so sad, dunno if there is any other way to prevent non lethal damage to knock you out....

Wonderstell wrote:
Metux wrote:
- Red tongue archetype: rogue talent => ninja trick => deflect arrows? And we can share it to anybody too! So everybody with improved unarmed strike can now deflect arrows once per round, dunno if there are more usefull talent or tricks but this is so cool.

The Combat Trick rogue talent would give you access to a combat feat, which could be Deflect Arrows, but your allies would get to choose a new combat feat every time you gave out the rogue talent.

Blind-Fight, Dedicated Adversary, Friendly Switch, Teamwork feats, etc.
Which is pretty damn good.

Are you sure it works this way? Once you choose the combat trick talent, you also chose the feat associated with, and I think that every allies including you, receive this one.

But you might have a point, because RAW you grant a rogue talent. Combat trick is a talent, and that's it, but it seems way damn too good.

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I am going to necro my own thread because I found a new awesome build for this mighty warrior :)

So let's begin with the stat Array (lets assume a 20pts buy):
str 14+2 (+1 lv 8 +1 lv20)
dex 14
con 15 (+1 lv4)
int 10
wis 8
cha 14 (+1 lv 12/16 in order to be able to cast 5th/6th spell level)

Same traits traits:
- fate's favored
- Tusked Such hero is never unarmed! and stacks well with a normal attack and a lesser spirit attack).
- Community minded Such hero cares about his community and his word echoes in minds even when he stops talking.
- + 1 drawback (Vain prolly)

Racial traits: here we change quite much
- Sacred tatoo : yeah, still badass and op as f~#~ with the trait
- Shaman's apprentice: get endurance feat, crucial for the build
- Dusksight: granting low light vision and reroll on miss chance on dim light.
- Dark vision : You can't fool such hero even in darkness !

Progression of the first 8 levels:
So here, we go bloodrager at first level again, but with blood conduit, to grab improve unarmed strike feat, with a bloodline familiar with valet archetype, and the basic rage (all are necessary). Let's get a hedhehog for the +2will and let in a pocket to never get it at risk

For skald archetype I took Undying Word and Red tongue, those both together are so damn cool, we are gonna build a damn mighty skald that can outlast anybody. Just grab a 2handed reach weapon for a little pressure in order to not be ignored

Global Level 1 : Bloodrager 1 :
HP:12, Saves : +6(+8)/+4/+3(+5), BBA+1, Rage:6r
- Amplified rage (not activable yet)
- Improved unarmed strike
- Bloodline Celestial familiar archetype valet
- Rage +4/+4/+2/-2

Global Level 2 : Skald(Undying Word/Red Tongue) 1 | Bloodrager 1:
HP:19, Saves : +8(+10)/+4/+5(+7) BBA+1, Rage:6r, Performance: 6(FCB included)
- Inspire resilience: grants +1 will +2 con and thats it for anybody, be we going to replace it for ourselves with the bloodragers bonuses, so we still get our basic +4str/+4con/+2will/-2AC.
- Inspire resilience still grants the hero +8 Str & +8 Con +2 will -2AC to the hero thanks to amplified rage and the +1 will, +2 con for others
- Rile instead of bardic knowledge, more bluff to deceive or conceal his motive and intimidate to improve relationship instead of knowledge. Really nice for having some social impact.
- access to some non class list spells even if we got low DC ( doom (1st), castigate (2nd), charm monster (3rd), denounce (4th), greater command (5th), mass eagle’s splendor (6th)).
- Diehard feat (undying word archetype replacing scribe scroll by bonus feats at lv 1, 7 and 13 for any feat with endurance requirement that we meet prerequisites)
- FCB : +1 rage round

So now we can already fight until negatives, and maintain our rage too. So no need to powers like raging vitality or anything like that.
It will allow us to keep getting fast healing starting from next level

Global Level 3 : Skald(Undying Word/Red Tongue) 2 | Bloodrager 1:
HP:26, Saves : +9(+11)/+4/+6(+8), BBA+2, Rage:7r, Performance: 9(FCB included)
- Well versed
- Perform oratory mandatory, but that's good because we were going this way
- Skald's Vigor: Grants Fast Healing 8 to the hero (Cause the source of the +8strength is the raging song, btw inspire resilience works as raging song, they mention it)

Inspire Resilience (Su)

At 1st level, the undying word can grant his companions supernatural endurance. This functions as inspired rage, but it grants neither a bonus to his allies’ Strength nor a –1 penalty to their AC.

This raging song replaces inspired rage.

- FCB : +1 rage round

So now we get the fast healing 8 and can still regen at negatives. With 15+8con, we have a 23 constitution, so I guess we can go until -23Hp but not sure, maybe it still goes until -15 only.

Global Level 4 : Skald(Undying Word/Red Tongue) 3 | Bloodrager 1:
HP:37(con raise included), Saves : +10(+12)/+5/+6(+8), BBA+3, Rage:6r, Performance: 12(FCB included)
- Rage Power : Celestial totem lesser, so every healing is amplified for everybody accepting the inspire rage.
- +1 Con granting more hp and negative threshold
- FCB : +1 rage round
- Song of Marching

Global Level 5 : Skald(Undying Word/Red Tongue) 4 | Bloodrager 1:
HP:46, Saves : 11(+13)/+5/+7(+9) BBA+4, Rage:7r, Performance: 15(FCB included)
- Something like Quillbreaker defense (with mending and a masterwork spike you can apply 2 RD 10/- per fight) and keep mending it afterward, or you can go power attack if you feel ignored my creeps. You can also go foritied armor feat to deny a critical by breaking an armor or shield.
- Uncanny dodge, man that this is usefull as a defensive layer.
- Spells lv 2
- +1 will save to the shared inspire resilience song.
- FCB : +1 level 1 spell known

Global Level 6 : Skald(Undying Word/Red Tongue) 5 | Bloodrager 1:
HP:55, Saves : 11(+13)/+5/+7(+9) BBA+4, Rage:7r, Performance: 17(FCB included)
- Undying word power: guarded life, so now we share it to everybody too.
We can still go unconscious if non lethal > hp but just wait for next level :)
- FCB : +1 level 1 spell known

Global Level 7 : Skald(Undying Word/Red Tongue) 6 | Bloodrager 1:
HP:64, Saves : 12(+14)/+6/+8(+10) BBA+5, Rage:7r, Performance: 19(FCB included)
- Guarded life greater as a shared rage power
- Feat : Flagellant => now we do not go unconscious if non lethal damage is above HP. Now we can convert 12 damage to non lethal when going from positive to 0 or less. Even if we go negatives we are up and that non lethal we can keep raging and fast healing 8 heals 8 non lethal and 8 lethal damage. We doubling our regen at this point and stay way more often around 0 hp. If the hit it too hard, just pop the defensive feat of the lv 5 or a windy escape. (Uncanny dodge helps using windy escape more often)
- FCB : +1 level 1 spell known

Global Level 8 : Skald(Undying Word/Red Tongue) 7 | Bloodrager 1:
HP:73, Saves : 12(+14)/+6/+8(+10) BBA+6/+1, Rage:7r, Performance: 21(FCB included)
- Red tongue archetype: rogue talent => ninja trick => deflect arrows? And we can share it to anybody too! So everybody with improved unarmed strike can now deflect arrows once per round, dunno if there are more usefull talent or tricks but this is so cool.
- Undying Word feat: Deathless Initiate => no more staggered at negatives with Diehard, so can go full round attack with the new iterative attack and the tusked trait at base +6/+1/+1 if desired and we also get +2 attack and damage while in negatives.
- FCB : +1 level 1 spell known

And from there we get improved uncanny dodge at next level, and then from lv 10 to 12 we can get 3 times increased damage reduction rage power thanks to the one granted by class (at our lv 10) + extra rage power (lv 11) + Undying Word: something like superstition or energy resistance that we can share or improved damage reduction(lv 12)
And at lv 13 we can get another rogue talent to share and a new rage power like celestial totem to purge invisibility around everybody accepting the rage. And the classical 13th feat open that can be stalwart, fast healer, another rage power for ourselves etc...

And it keeps going this way :)
So mainly at this point we share to others:
- Inspire resilience +4Con +4Will no malus
- Celestial totem lesser, celestial totem
- Guarded life, guarded life greater
- Deflect arrows (or swap to another talent that you find usefull, even standup can be cool)
- Damage reduction 4/-

What do you think? I have the feeling that I have found the best tanky / support skald you can do at this point :) Wanna play him so badly now !

Any suggestions on which rogue talent / ninja trick you would chose instead of the ones I suggested? Or any other idea?


Getting more sneak attack is not the purpose. The purpose is to do w/e damage sneak attack in order to immediate study the target essentialy.

If I really wanted to pump sneak attack, I would just go accomplished sneak attacker as a feat and not trade other crucial feats.

Nature fangs get a limited kind of study target:
You can only study 1 target at a time, so you can't use the study target feat to reduces the number to increase the bonus (or study many targets before the fight starts), and you get swift action study at 9 instead of 7.

I think that you are right JiaYou for the +2 hit on the immediate study, it doesn't work, you only get the damage bonus.

Otherwise the hornbow I have is an Adaptive horn bow +2 so better than those spell expect snowball that I already use against big armored guys (really easy to hit especially once studied as a move action + hawkeye as a swift action, point blank shot : +13 hit and 5D6+3 snowball vs touch Ac is awesome ^^).

You also have a point for study before combat, I just couldn't do it because of a dungeon with many doors (have any idea how to do that? with a mirror? does it count) and no reliable way to see through at the moment, but definitively doing study on every npc I check just in case I need a skill check against him.

What immediate action study on sneak attacks trully allows me is to set a full attack with the study bonus (sneak is less relevant at this moment) on the second round with the possibility to use my switft action to get a +2 hit on first arrow with hawkeye (and +3 hit on the many shot double's arrow attack next level).

I was looking to a way to deny dex to AC, like with ashen path + sleet storm style,in order to take targets down 1 per 1 (while also slowing them and I need the DC bonus because I only have 16 wisdom) by keeping the study target bonus as much as I can (the attack bonus is really critical in my game because the ennemies are kinda more beefy than usual).

I am the main source of damage in my team and I cannot do only control because I have invested 0 ressources to improve it (not my role, I got teammates than can help there) otherwise I totally agree again with you of the fact that 1 action can enable others to allies and remove to ennemies and the whole battle is just about action numbers and quality of those actions. That's the reason why I focus them down 1 per 1 but also in mind that if I can control a few at the same time, it's the cherry on top of the cake ^^.

@Scott and JiaYou

Initiative case:
I said that it was a specific case, I do not always loose initiative of course, but surprise is not always there because you know... we have this loud clanky dwarf warrior ^^. W/e I proposed this scenario in order to not talk about surprise rounds and one round of sneak granted by initiative.

My druid is a pure archer with a horn bow and every ranger's ranged style feats and 9levels of druid spells, so nothing to be shy about. Sneak is not only +3.5dmg , it's +2att and +5.5 because of study target + 0 to X dex to AC denied.
So it's a really huge boost actually when you shoot 2 arrows


I have an ally that is lv 4 shaman and lv 1 inqusitor, and realised we can do this combo in one turn together, I cast daylight and he casts fear of the sun = voilà, anyone failing it's DC is blinded for 1 round. It's quite effective as a way to control to get 1 'safe' turn for the team, but it doesn't last long for me to sneak/study because for next turns they are just dazzled. Still a good combo I guess.

Looking for other stuff like that :). We also have a wizard in the team but he's really focused on fire evocation spells.

Hmm you are right ice slick is too tiny with its 5 feet radius to maintain someone inside even if they fall prone at initial save, but the sleet storm with a 40-ft. radius and 20 ft. high should be more than enough to keep many opponents inside since they would need a a base movespeed of 80ft to get out in one round if starting at the center.

So in this case where they will finish their turn in the area after using their acrobatic skills to move half speed, will they stay denied their dex to AC?

Nice suggestion for ashen path, thanks :)

If they go out of the area it's not relevant because they are still denied their Dex to CA since they used this acrobatics skill to get out, so I will have 1 round opportunity to sneak/study them right?


I found Force Spikes that can hurl X spikes per level and you can pin one target if you send 5 spikes to it. (3 can grapple, 1 can entangle).
Quite funny spell actually. Plus it's force damage, so tt can really hurts ghosts, shadows etc...
nvm 3rd party

Any hold spell (animal for druid, or persons for others) can also do the trick. Not sure though it's worth it to hit an already disabled opponent... (expect if it's a great threat that can recover quickly)

Thanks guys for some of your ideas. I do not intend to multiclass. Neither rely on one shot trick like invisibility (greater invisibility is another debate)

@Scott Wilhelm:
What are the light conditions for me as a LowLightVision Half elf to apply sneak attack to a player hit by Shadowmind? Increasing darkness by one step might not be enough right? I am not sure to understand all lights mechanics there for this spell.

The mudball is a good idea but the ennemy can wash it off by either suceeding a reflex saving of 16 for free (11+3(wis)+2(study)) or use a standard action. I need an ally to do that and act before the target to guarantee a sneak attack I guess.

@Secret Wizard:
My druid does not have 13 cha, no wild empathy features or AnimalC via domains. Didn't bother with social skills. He's a monster hunter type of guy.

This implies some way to see through fog right? I only know the goz mask but do not have enough money right now.
I do want some way (maybe not that reliable because of the DC of the spell) but an easy way for the character to enable this.

I looked at the spell lv 2 : Winter Grasp:

Winter Grasp spell:

[PFS Legal] Winter Grasp
Source Ultimate Wilderness pg. 237, People of the North pg. 26
School conjuration (creation) [cold, water]; Level druid 2, hunter 2, shaman 2, witch 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (ground glass)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Ice encrusts the ground, radiating supernatural cold and making it hard for creatures to maintain their balance. This icy ground is treated as normal ice, forcing creatures to spend 2 squares of movement to enter an icy square and increasing the DC of Acrobatics checks in the area by 5. A creature that begins its turn in the affected area takes 1d6 points of cold damage and takes a –2 penalty on saving throws against spells with the cold descriptor for 1 round.

Combined with:
Acrobatics / Cross uneven ground wrote:

Cross Narrow Surfaces/Uneven Ground

First, you can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round. Use the following table to determine the base DC, which is then modified by the Acrobatics skill modifiers noted below. While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any). If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.

This should allow me to sneak attack everybody that tries to move until their next turn right?

Caveat: Doesn't work if they don't move I guess, and -4 to hit if they fail their check. The DC won't be that high so I hope they will succeed.
But even if they go out of the icy floor, they are still denied until their next turn right?

edit: I am not sure if WinterGrasp is enough when I read Sleet Storms description:

SleetStorm wrote:
Driving sleet blocks all sight (even darkvision) within it and causes the ground in the area to be icy. A creature can walk within or through the area of sleet at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move in that round, while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details)The sleet extinguishes torches and small fires.

Winter grasp increases Acrobatics DC's by 5 but it doesn't say which ones... While Sleet storm is more precise. Is Sleet Storm just more severe than default by saying they do not move if they fail ?

What happens if someone fails it's accrobatics save on WinterGrasp, nothing because it says nothing? IS the text in Sleet storm the default rule : 'while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details)' Because I can not see this in Acrobatics skill details.

Or Fog spells + Goz Mask I suppose? (Not enough money to afford that item right now).

I saw once if I remember a spell being able to 'pin' opponents as per the grab rules. This would work lovely.

I wonder if I shouldn't take persistant spell metamagic at lv 7 for those strategies.

Hello everybody :)

I am actually playing a nature fang druid archer (eagle domain) and really having a blast playing it ^^. I do 0 summoning, since it's banned in our game (for pnj's too, so instead I can convert my spells like a cleric to healings, still an upgrade for a basic druid having healing spells slower than cleric)

So he's actually level 5 and I need ways to sneak attack for 2 reasons:

* Well having extra damage is always good.
* But I am trying to study targets with immediate actions instead of move action, and sneaking targets allows this. At level 5, this grants +2 to hit/dmg/Dc of spells and skills.

So I was looking for some help to find ways to deny dex to Ac to ennemies with area control spells in order to do some stuff like that: lets consider this case : 3 ennemies close to each others:

- No surprise round (btw can we use an immediate action to study in the surprise round if we sneak? I guess not because you do not have a swift action in surprise round by default right?)
- I am acting last because I rolled by initiative.
- I study one target with a move action and get +2 att/dmg/DC of spells + I cast a spell with a standard action (Here help me find which spell can deny them their Ac, something like frost floor? So they spend Accrobatics skills to stay on feet? something that can pin them? Paralyze?Making them flee or run, which denies dex to AC without run feat etc?)
- At my next turn, I do a full attack and I shoot 2 arrows. The first arrow with sneak kills it's target, and now I continue on another target at range, but I want it to be denied too in order to study him with an immediate action by sneaking attacking him. This way he will also have more chances to stay denied thanks to the +2DC of the study.
(- and If I can not study 2 targets in the same round because of immediate actions working like swift actions and we have only 1 per round, I still want to be able to full attack next round and study again with immediate thanks to a sneak attacking condition).

So with having acces to lv 1,2,3 druid spells, do you see anything that can fit this strategy? Is magic items needed? Or specific feats? My druid is half elf so no darkvision only LowLightVision btw just in case and he has acces to fly as 3rd domain spell.

His feats are:
1:Point Blank Shot
1:Half elf exotic proficiency: horn bow
3:Precise Shot
4:slayer talent: ranger style: archery: rapid shot
5:Weapon Focus long bow (if we find a good strategy, I might take accomplished sneak attacker) Any useful improving study target feats? There might be one, but a nature fang can only study 1 target unlike the slayer that can study more target at the same time.
(then at 6: slayer talent: ranger style: improve precise shot or many shot not decied yet)

Any idea is welcome, thanks!

There is also the bard archeologist (+2 to att/dmg/etc...)
And the Skald can also get quickly (lv2 iirc) +8 strength/con from rage.

I have a question, if you charge with the lance doing x2 damage, you attack at the reach range then you have to stop there I guess (without special feats). Does this mean that your mount can't attack if it does not have reach also?

This is the feat for dhampirs you are looking for :

Life-Dominant Soul

You gain unusual resiliency from your mortal heritage.

Prerequisite: Dhampir

Benefit: You are healed by channeled positive energy used to heal living creatures and channeled negative energy used to heal undead, but both only heal half the normal amount. You still take damage from positive energy used to harm undead, such as that from channeled energy and lay on hands.

what you want is the Undead Master archetype for wizard :)

You get command undead feat without the need to pick Necromancer as your arcane school, you just can't choose necromancy as opposed school but it uses more charges to be fueled.

Otherwise you go necromancy school and get a free Improved Channel feat with the undead master

And can I not choose to have a 2nd familiar ?

Another question, if I take the wizard VMC (evocation) in order to get extra spell damage and admixture at lv 7. WHat happens with he familiar I get at 3rd level?
It says, it scales at full level:

Familiar: At 3rd level, he gains a familiar, treating his character level as his effective wizard level.

Des my familiar now get 2levels every time I get 1lv after 3rd?

Melkiador wrote:
All of those options stack into one familiar. And the familiar has both added abilities. None of the options take away a familiar ability, so the familiar can have an archetype too.

Thank you so much !

It s really fine that it works like that and way easier for the RP and the technical mechenics to just keep the same familiar.

Hello there :)

I am working on many builds right now and one of them implies a sorcerer dip && full level witch.

Bloodline familiar
Patron familiars

So what happens when I go this way:

- Cross-blooded Orc-Draconic Sorcerer 1
I can replace the first level bloodline power by a bloodline familiar.
Let's say go Draconic one, to grant my familiar Dragon's Flight (Ex)

- Invoker Medium Witch
Choosing the Element patron, thus getting an Element patron base familiar getting it a new power called Elemental Touch (Su), but delaying by one level the patron spells.

So at this point what happens?

Do I have 2 seperate familiars?
=> Sorcerer one stay at lv 1 and Witch one raises with Witch level?
=> Sorcerer and Witch levels up together?
=> Do I choose 2 familiar bonus? (eg +4init and +2 will save)

Do I have 1 familiar only?
=> Let's say the first acquired one, thus raising at stacked level, do the familiar get both powers (draconic + elemental) ?
=> If I keep the first one, will it then being used as spellbook for the witch spellcasting?

What about Familiar archetypes on top of those questions?

I am so lost here, any help will be really appreciated :)


sorcerers have bloodline mutation and one of them works like intensify but instead of +5 Max Die number, its +cha mod die number. You can do it only few times per day.

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If some people play Magic the gathering card game, for me immediate actions are like instant spells equivalent of this game.

You can you use them while it's ennemies turn, before he took an action or after he took an action to stack the effect on the 'pile' and resolve the last played effect first.

Which means that in your example, the lich could also use an immediate action to do something to respond to the EFS.

Lich casts ennervation-> players uses immediate for EFS -> Lich responds with power X as immediate, this resolves as:

X is cast/used -> if X doesn't impact the ability for the player to cast EFS, then EFS is cast -> then Lich casts enervation on he player.

If X removes the players ability to play an immediate action:

Lich casts X in respond to EFS-> player wanted to response ennervation with EFS but is no more allowed to use immediate actions, so nothing happens -> Lich casts ennervation on the player.

Personnaly I would play those effects this way.

Claxon: talking about this ability from the 'divine marksman' archetype?

Vicious Aim (Ex)

At 4th level, a divine marksman adds half his highest favored enemy bonus to all attack rolls and damage rolls for attacks made with ranged weapons. This does not stack with his normal favored enemy bonus when targeting a creature that qualifies as a favored enemy.

This ability replaces all spellcasting, and the marksman is not considered to have a caster level.

its +1D6 at lv 6, +2D6 at lv 11, and +3D6 at lv 16.

At level 6(even at 5) Energy channel grants +6 damage for 3 attacks (or +12 damage for a manyshot that counts for only 1 charge) vs 3.5 average extra damage.

At level 16, it grants +16 damage for 3 attacks (or +32 for a manyshot that countrs for only 1 charge). vs 10.5 average extra damage.

Crocodile would have been good if we went melee I guess and not with a small grippli for the deathroll ability.
Getting better sneak attacks are more situational because you don't decide when you want (or have to do some feints not attacking I guess?). On the other side, energy channel has a limited pool per day.

I prefer energy channel there. Plus sneak is precision based vs acid elemental damage. I don't know what's best : is there more acid resistant monster vs precision damage resistant monster ?
Also, the Acid damage is multiplied on crit.

(by this way it can also be aquatic or arctic domain depending of the campagn context. we just need the cha pool).

Allright guys I have a new idea of Archer.

This one will be either a Full Nature Fang or a 1 level dip Cleric(archetype?) full Inquisitor(Heretic, sanctified slayer).

For both we gonna take those traits:

- Deadeye Bowman(religion) : deny 1 'creature' soft cover when using longbow
- Hunter's Eye: If Gm allows it to get longbow prof and 2nd increment penalty free (not needed if going inquisitor route)
- Canopy Shooter(race) grippli : +1 trait ranged weap.damage when attacking from higher ground and withing 30feet
- +1 extra channel pool can be a nice trait too (Why?...teasing...)
-drawback if needed

Yeah, I ll do a grippli for this build I guess (climb speed, small size 30feet move, +2dex and Wisdom).

Here is the big picture for the Full Nature Fang:

So the core of the build is pretty easy get fast shot and many shot with slayer talents at 4th and 6th. But as 1st and 3rd level, we ll go with war blessing and energy channel (acid) feats.

We ll get a domain as nature bond, to grab a channel pool, the most suited one is the swamp domain. This will give us a 3+cha channel pool. And with the blessings, we ll get earth for sure, and another one like liberation or travel, or anything else you like (wind for sniping really far).

This build seems fun, this small little dude can climb anywhere, get high ground advantage, cast 9th level spells, and spam pretty powerfull arrows with the studied target and energy channel boosts. Funny thing is that studied target also boost the DC of spells, which is a good bonus actually.

Don't forget that manyshot counts for 1 attack (and energy channel is per attack) so even if 2 arrows are fired only on charge is used (same rule as deflect arrows that cancels both arrows because of only 1 attack)

The 5th feat can be dealy aim, so at lv 6 it becomes a -2/+4.

On the other side, we can do a 1 dip cleric to get the channel pool and earth domain. We can grab another domain or an archetype to get a free feat. And we get the energy channel feat. Earth domain is way better than earth blessing because of the extra usage of the power it can grant compared to only 2 minor blessing with the war blessing feat.

Then we go full heretic sanctified slayer, and take as 3rd level feat the one that allows to keep channel (damage) scale with inquisitor levels. We get wisdom mod to key skills and initiative and a bit later slayer talents.

This one doesn't rely on the proficienty trait because inquisitor has them. The cleric dip grants good saves and extra feat/domain depending of archetypes.

This build has another bonus compared to the nature fang on the sneak attacks: it has a scalable sneak attack, while nature fang is stuck at 1D6. And its studied target isn't nerfed (even if nature fang has really small limitations on it).

But this build loose 9th levels spells, slayer talents come so late... 8, 16, 17, 20. This is way to late...

edit: I forgot but this dude get bane...


For an Archer I prefer faster slayer talent(to get ranger ranged style and bypass preq's) than scalable sneak attack..

So any advice for one of those 2 builds :D ?

Ok I changed some plans and considered scurrying-swarmer at our lv 3 feat.

I have a paladin in my team as front liner, so I ll probably stick with him to be able to flank most of the ennemies.

I will also remove scout archetype for bandit to get more acton during surprise rounds. My GM allowed me to get the goblin favored class to get more sneak attack damage(thus increasing bombs damage twice) during surprise round and before any one acted on the first round.

So at 5TH level, a dip in wizard diviner/foresight seems pretty good for this build. This way we always act in surprise rounds(with +1 init) where we get more actions, we also grab a pretty good pre-roll power at least 7 times a day, and a familier (which can be a valet to help us for crafting poisons). We ll also be able to scribe 1st level scrolls.

A hedgehog can grant us, with the wizard dip, a flat +4 to will saves, which can be interesting, or we can get the scorpion to get +4 initiative and being able to always access its poison (but the DC is low...). If the valet familiar is a small one (not a tiny) scurrying-swarmer will also be activated.

We loose some skill points for this dip but we get every knowledge, fly and spellcraft as class skills which is really nice for our character and worths a lot of skill points.

At lv 5 we still have this feat slot open.

Ho and by this way, if you take a one level dip in mesmerist, you can get the painful stare :

Painful stare wrote:

When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist's hypnotic stare, the mesmerist can cause the target to take an amount of additional damage equal to 1/2 the mesmerist's class level (minimum 1).

The mesmerist can use this ability as a free action, and can use it even if it isn't his turn. If the mesmerist uses this ability to increase his own damage, the additional damage increases by 1d6 points for every 3 class levels the mesmerist possesses. This damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. A mesmerist can trigger this ability only once per round, but a single creature can take damage from multiple mesmerists' painful stares in a round.

Thus your Magic missile now deal +1D6 for each missile hitting the target. Thus an empowered Magic missile can deal (5D4+10)*1,5 + 5D6 = 22,5 *1,5 + 17.5 = 50,75 as average (for a first level slot) and you can also burst with a quickened as 3rd spell slot adding extra: 5D4+10+5d6 = 22,5+17,5 = 40 average damage.

You also get the hypnotic stare to reduce will save by 2, which can be usefull before using a SoS SoD spell.
Also you can get a trick and I really like Shadow Splinter, which is a kind of offensive version of windy escape but is instead activated by a free action and scales with Cha.

Hello, if you want a pure magic missile, you can do something like that:
Tatooed Sorcerer with Orc bloodline, to get the +1 damage per die on
every spells including magic missile and dark vision.

traits: wayang spellhunter (magic missile) (region)
traits: Magical Lineage (magic missile) (magic)

Familiar instead of first level power (look at familiar archetypes, can be interested), can taken improved familiar later too.

Level 1: Spell focus(evocation)
Level 1: Spells specialization(magic missile)
Level 1: Mage's tatoo (evocation) free

level 3: Empowered Spell
level 5: Dazing spell
level 7: quicken spell + a bloodline feat (toughness/great fortitude?)

At level 1: magic missile(CL4) do : 2D4+4 (as 1st level spell)
At level 2: magic missile(CL5) do : 3D4+6 (as 1st level spell)
At level 3: magic missile(CL6) do : (3D4+6)*1,5 (as 1st level spell)
At level 4: magic missile(CL7) do : (4D4+8)*1,5 (as 1st level spell), you can use second level spells to cast those too
At level 5: magic missile(CL8) do : 4d4+8 + dazes(maximum of 4 target) (as 2nd level spell).
At level 6: magic missile(CL9) do : 5D4+10 (free 3rd level slots to use dazed/empowered versions -> can be used at next level with quicken spell, the feat is missing)
At level 7: magic missile(CL10) do : 5D4+10 can be cast as a swift action (as 3rd level spell)
At level 8: magic missile(CL11)with 4th level slots, you can do empowered + dazing magic missiles, spell spez should be retrained or the spell changed.

Every options available at lv X can be done with higher spell slots if necessary.
You do not need Preferred Spell because you are already a spontaneous caster and you can cast any spell you need. But casting metemagic spells last longer, so maybe get spontaneous-metafocus at any point.

Dont forget to take the favored class bonus as a human to get extra spells known and thus being able to stay versatile. If someone has shield, just throw another blast, you still have +1/die at least or cast some control/summon spells.

1 level of swashbuckler (or the amateur swashbuckler feat) grants you the dodging deed that adds Cha to your AC as Dodge bonus (which stacks with itself)

There is the goblin feat roll with it that grants huge DR :)

It seems to me that it's two different pools.
You gain a new power, doing only a part of the normal channel energy.

It's like the life revelation of oracle and the channel of clerics.
There is FAQ for that :

For Channel Damage, you have a new ability, that's based upon a channel:

If you have cleric 7 and SW 1:
Cleric 7 pool: 3+Cha: Heal living 4D6 or Damage Undead 4D6 (Caster lv 7)
Soul Warden 1 pool: 3+Cha: Damage Undead only 4D6 (Caster lv8)

Cleric channel does not advance if you go Soul Warden, but if you go Cleric 8, the Channel Damage follows up:

Cleric 8 and SW 1:
Cleric 8 pool: 3+Cha: Heal living 4D6 or Damage Undead 4D6 (Caster lv 8)
Soul Warden 1 pool: 3+Cha: Damage Undead only 5D6 (Caster lv9)

A one level dip in Soul Warden is kind of awesome :).
Plus, If you got extra channel, you can choose to use those 2 channel as you wish each day, if you need to damage Undead and have no charges left, you can use one floating from the extra channel pool, and you could after that use the 2nd one for healing with the clerics pool.

And if you want a trick, there is a trait (Child of Wati), that allows to dip 1 level while still advancing your channel power (like the trait that allows to get back 2 caster level).

As cleric 7 and SW 1 you could have:
Cleric pool as level 8, then Soul warden as lv 9.
Then you keep leveling cleric, and you lost 0 level, but now you have a 2nd pool at your cleric lv +1 for damaging undeads :).

Chess Pwn wrote:
if you wear armor you can't flurry anymore.

Are you sure? Can you quote me this rule please?


Armor and Shield Proficiency wrote:
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

Hmmm, yeah now it starts to become a little mad...

Ho I forgot that Zen archer, doesn't work with Unchained Monk.

I do not see any MAD character build here...
We don't care to not get AC from wisdom actually...

With a 20 points before, Without Race Bonus, we can do something like that:
14 / 16 / 12 / 10 / 10 / 13
If we go halfling it does 12 / 18 / 12 / 10 / 10 / 15

Let's say we get a level of Zen archer with the normal monk:
We loose:
+2 attack (1 from the BBA, and 1 from the flurry of the level 1 monk).
+1 hp
We get back +2 will.

Our base save become +2/+4/+6, becoming +8/+10/+9 with above stats (and the +1 to all saves as racial bonus of halflings), while fighting.
Our attacks become on flurry:

+9/+9 1D6+8, 1D6+8 ~23 damage
Feats: Spirit focus feat(1), Lingering Performance(3), PBS(Monk1)
With 18 rounds of Archeologists luck and 21 at we bump the charisma to 16 at lv 4.

Imbicatus wrote:

The problem is that outside of your limited duration self buffs, you are a BAB 0 at third level. You are also incredibly MAD. You need DEX to hit, STR for damage, WIS for AC, and CHA for luck rounds..

A Ranger, Slayer, Weapon Master Fighter, or Single Class Zen Archer will kill you in DPR, will have more feats, and will be more effective outside combat as well.

Wis for AC? Why bother, lets just wear an armor. Just pretend we don't have this bonus. Cha also allows some spells for bard and medium.

We could even go ninja for KI, or Paladin for the smite. Lots of powerful features with CHA. Plus we have almost every skill of the game I guess as class skill.

By this way, this build will do a little better with the rule that allows incremental BBA, like 0.5+0.5+0.5 = 1,5 => +1BBA and even with a 4th +0BBA class, we can get +2 at lv 4.

The thing is that all those bonuses actually are not restricted to a weapon type, so actually we could even do a great switch hitter...
If we swap Zen Archer, by Far strike Monk, we grab quick draw as bonus feat too, and we also get every exotic 'throwable' weapons proficiency.

At level 4 or 5, we could choose to go something like Slayer for full progression to get Studied target to get another +1/+1 bonus.

There is the Spirit Focus feat that could grant us +1 att/damage/fortitude/strength based skills and checks..
We could swap precise shot as bonus feat and get PBS as bonus feat, and get Spirit focus first with Medium as the first level.

We would at lv 3 do with a basic bow of strength +2:
+10/+10 at 1D8+9/1D8+9 ~ 28 damage at range with the above example.

Hello guys,

I come with a new kind of idea.
As other builds I ll try to do an optimized archer build, but this thread is a kind of brainstorm.

So I have a proposition for the first 3 levels:

Bard 1 / Medium 1 / Unchained Monk 1

Bard - Archaeologist , to get +2 luck bonus to attacks / damage etc...
To get +2 we need fate's favoured.

Medium - (No idea if there is one best suited for what we want).
We want the Champion in order to get + 1 attack and +3 damage.

Unchained Monk - Zen archer?
This way we grab a second attack at 0 cost (better than rapid shot because of -2/-2) with flurry of blow. We can get an extra feat for archery and we can threat at melee with unarmed in addition of a free perfect strike.

At level 3, with 14strengh and 18 dex(nothing amazing there), we can do :
Lets say we pick Lingering performance at first(to triple the duration of the Archaeologist) and Point blank shot at 3rd.
For the extra Monk feat we can get precise shot for example or deflect arrow.

We have :
- Attack: +1(BBA) + 2(luck) + 1(Medium/Untryped?)+1 (PBS)+4 (Dex)= +9
- Damage: +2(luck) + 3(Medium/Untyped?) +1(PBS)+2(str mod) = +8

We have one trait left, I like the trait that allows to deny 1 cover per attack and grant longbow proficiency, it allows to start with bard for example. And even without the proficiency, denying 1 target from cover is awesome from lv 1 to 20.

So, we have no race chosen, no level 0 knacks chosen, no level 0 and 1 spell chosen as bard (I would get windy escape as one of them for sure).

Base saving bonus are at +2/+4/+4. We got +2 to all while under Archaeologist's luck, +1 fort from Medium spirit bonus. Then you add every mod from stats. Seems pretty solid.

So any idea to upgrade that? Even small races can manage very well because those are static bonuses.
The Character is quite Charisma based with the bard and medium. Shall we grab 1 level of Paladin to get that smite? Shall we go Guide(ranger) to get an extra +2/+2 and other bonuses once per day?

Ho by this way, we are actually using a swift action to buff ourself with the Archaeologist's luck. And then it's free to maintain. If we go lingering, we need to use one swift action per 3 rounds.

Medium's bonus is passive for 24hours.
So let's try to not stack many swift action buffs.
1 more seems good, 2 more is the max, otherwise we won't be able to cycle performance rounds.

There are some rage power and archetypes that can grant dex bonus, or +2 to ranged attacks, and they are all free action to start...

Let's brainstorm !

And what action is shadow of veil?

By expending 1 point from her arcane reservoir, an arcanist can pull a veil of shadows around her, making her more difficult to spot and strike. The arcanist gains concealment (20% miss chance) and a +5 bonus on Stealth checks. This effect lasts a number of rounds equal to 1 + the arcanist's Charisma bonus.

Well when you are this kind of time bomb, you need to secure yourself somehow, or to have a support that can do it for yourself.

For example, there is a trait that allows to re-roll a failed save once per day. This kind of thing can save your team if you are a nova type of character.

You also got good bards spells that can allow some re-rolls with an immediate action like saving finale.

Hight DPR isn't a bad thing, but you have to plan for the worst cases because it can be brutal...

"Power is nothing without mastery".

Non-lethal damage is so OP.

My half orc skald were going to take guarded life as his first rage power, but when I saw this corner case by doing some simulation, I took the lesser spirit totem because I didn't want to ask my GM some fixes...

In order to keep raging, thus fast healing 8 with skald's vigor, raging vitality is way better.

So sad...

Did you try to use 'protection from good' or the one with the right alignement?

This first level spell can totally shut-down summons:

Protection from Evil/good/Whatever... wrote:
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature.

Ho and for a 2nd level spell, you have the communal version, shutting down every summoned monster for the whole team.

Only creatures with SR can 'try' to reach the warded character.

There is also some anti magic zone that can stop but its pretty brutal.
Otherwise, there is a feat or a spell or a wizard features that allows to get the control of summoned creatures. It could be a good way to return his power against him :)

edit : Found it:

Assume Control wrote:

Assume Control (Su)

At 1st level, you can attempt to gain control over a summoned creature by disrupting the bond between it and the caster who summoned it. You must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) equal to 10 + the summoning caster’s level. If you know the summoned creature’s name, you receive a +2 circumstance bonus on the check. If the check is successful, you can control the summoned creature as if you had summoned it for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1 round). This does not increase the duration of the original summoning. The original summoning caster can attempt to regain control of the summoned creature as a standard action by making a caster level check against your caster level + 10. When your control ends, the creature reverts to the control of its summoner.

At 9th level, you can use this ability to bargain with called creatures as if you were the caster who conjured them. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Hey Markov :)

Thanks for the advices, and I tend to take lesser Spirit Totem yes, but I was sad about this case with guarded life that I wanted too...
I don't want to ask my GM too much stuff, but yeah, it's probably the best fix we could do.

I took a hedgehog as familiar, so cute and lovely bonus for Eyjolf.
Ho yeah, I named him Eyjolf Skallagrimsson with his lovely little cute hedgehog of the celestial bloodline named Neira.
I took a hedgehog because of the fact that since the familiar does not get the amplified rage and we were already 6 player, I didn't wanted to slow fights longer with a fighting familiar. Plus Neira can do cool stuff with some healing and unlimited prestidigitation because she has the valet archetype of course.

If I take the lesser spirit totem, we agree that even Neira will be able to attack from the pocket of Eyjolf? It's like if Eyjolf had double the spirits everybody have around him, what a badass :)

Because actually a Hedgehog can only attack creatures in his square.
But the rage power says :

Lesser spirit Totem wrote:
These spirits make one slam attack each round against a living foe that is adjacent to the barbarian.

Plus, at 4th level Eyjolf is going to get 16 charisma, so it will be decent buff for everybody.

I might swap those guarded life line of feat with just extra DR. When we get the first DR (at lv 9 IIRC), we can get some extra bonus rage feat, to grant the whole team more DR.


Hey there,

I am actually playing this hero and having great fun !!

We ll soon be lv 4, and I wonder if I shall get guarded life.

Because I just noticed something, here is an example:
-So we are bloodrager 1 and skald 3 and have 10 hit points left
- We take a hit of 12 in our face
- Guarded life trigger, and convers 3 damage to non lethal
- Our current hp is 1 and we have 3 non lethal damage

And even Die Hard can't prevent that, Die Hard allows us to stay conscious if we go to negative health, which is not our case.

Since we are no more raging, we don't get the benefits of our fast healing. The only way to continue raging(thus healing) is with the raging vitality feat.
But this means everytime it happens, we fall on the ground and need to stand up...

Help me...

I am wondering something:

Can you with scurrying swarmer, start a charge and finish at an ally's position, thus getting charge bonus and flanking bonus?

Is there a conflict with the "you can't charge trough allies" ?

If we go scurrying swarmer and this charge thing works, we should probably drop scout archetype actually.

@claudekennilol: Yes you are right, thats why I'm trying to find a good dip to get extra features. The white haired witch might be a good one. What do you think?(Did pro/cons in the 2nd post)
If we get this scurrying-swarmer at 5 and continue Unchained rogue, we would be able to get next teamwork feat at 7 only...

@shroudb: Actually I don't know if there will be another ratfolk in the party, that's why I chose cornered fury to get +2att & AC when injuried and 'alone'.
But the combo you mentionned is nice that's sure, its like having solo tactics of the inquisitors but requires some feats we don't have.

But if there is one more melee ratfolk in the team, it would be great to keep swarming!

The purpose of this char is his versatility and efficiency.
What I like in this character is that he can do lots of stuff, and quite well:
- Bombs / alchemichal weapons at distance.
- On sneaks, grants great debuff to shutdown an ennemy, or help the team get it down faster (Debilitating Injury (Ex) + pressure points)
- Some poison flavors and ability, its expensive, even if you create them yourself, but still, it s a good flavor and might sometime add extra options (infiltrations, etc).
- Can be a crazy fighter at melee too.
- Has so many skill points and flavor to enjoy outside of battles too.

I really like the WHW dip at 5 actually...
edit: Just found out that we can only grab up to small creatures if we are small... meh...

Are you all fleeing because of his 7 charisma...
This should be his karma I guess :D

Ok, I got some new ideas for this build:

Instead of going snakebter at 5th level, we go dip as a white haired witch, to grab a primary haired attack with a reach, allowing us to grapple an ennemy witha free action based on our INT instead for STR.
This grapple doesn't grappe the witch, only the ennemy.

We loose compared to snakebiter:
- 1 bba
- 2hp hp difference,
- 2 ref, 2con
- 2 secondary attack with unarmed combat and two weapon fighting
- 1D6 sneak dice

We gain:
- 2 will
- A familiar which can be a valet to help crafting! or Alertness, some bonus (+2 to saves, or 3 to skills)
- Cantrips and first level spells (including the flavorful Alchemical Tinkering for ratfolks)
- Acces to a spell list for UMD
- A primary natural attack with reach, that can grapple as free action without grappling our genious ratfolk, thus debuffing even more
- A free feat because two weapon fightning is not needed anymore.
- We get some important extra skills as class skills, (fly, spellcraft, heal, knowledges arcana, history, nature and planes)

And we ll probably abuse this as much as possible:

Can the witch use his hair at melee by this way? If we can't it won't be that good, because we won't be able to grapple while doing full attack.

Hello Guys,

I'm back with a new idea of a build.
After the mighty half orc skald and the undead slayer dhampir cleric, here is my little genious ratfolk :

So, first of all, we are creating a genious ratfolk:
With a 25 pts buy: 10 / 18 / 14 / 18 / 12 / 7
Racial traits:
- tinker : huge boosts to every important skills in this build
- darkvision :Well, it's a must have for a rogue!
- cornered fury :Way better than swarming if you have no ratfolk ally, also helps if you get cought while scouting or doing some solo work...
- Unnatural :Some defensive bonus against animals, if you don't have anything to do with handle animal just swap it. Extra 2CA against animal is good.
We'll also have something around 12 / 13 skills per level which is huge. I told you, this little rat has nothing to envy the brain in 'Pinky & The Brain' ^^.

As traits, we gonna grab tusked trait thanks to the adopted trait, and as second trait we want the one that gives +1 damage on sneak attaks (or the one which gives +1att on sneak attacks) and if you can get a drawback and no campaign trait, swap UMD to INT instead of CHA.

Like the Mighty great Half Orc, I ll start with the first 6lv.
Teaser: This genious will have the potentiel to do more than 100+ damage at 6th level without any magical item included,and with good improvements per level, so stay tuned!

Unchained Rogue, Underground Chemsist, Scout, Poisoner 1:
Feat(lv1) Sharpclaws, to grab 2 primary claws that adds to our bite attack which becomes a secondary attack on full attack.
Class: Finesse Training (Ex)
Class: Poison use
Class: Sneak attack 1D6+1

Attach a ratfolk tailblade to your tail so you got a 4th natural attack (also a secondary on full attack).
This tailblade will be poisoned before each fight to make sure we grant ourselves some extra options / threat.

At first level, if we are in a flanking position we already got a nice burst:
Claw +7 1D4+1D6+1,Claw +7 1D4+1D6+1, bite+2 1D3+1d6+1, tail +2 1D2+1d6+1

Unchained Rogue, Underground Chemsist, Scout, Poisoner 2:
- Rogue talent(Bomber) : Gives you 4bombs/day at the damage of your sneak damage: 1D6+1
- Chemical Weapons (Ex): You can draw alchemical items like weapons(this is really good), and grants +int as extra damage for bombs and alchemichal items. So bombs become 1D6+5 with a splash of 5. If you fight undead, your holy water actually do 2D6+5 with a splash of 5.

So at this level we got some nice ranged options, with bombs and alchemical items. We can't sneak attack with them, but they deal good damage thanks to the addition of the INT to damage. In surprise rounds, a flatflooted ranged tuched attack usually always aim for a CA of 10.

Unchained Rogue, Underground Chemsist, Scout, Poisoner 3:
- Feat(lv3): extra talent(ninjaTrick: Pressure points): We can start to do some good debuffs with 4 nat attacks
- Class : Finesse Training (Claws) Our primary claws now get our DEX to damage too.
- Class : Master Poisoner (Ex): This ability is awesome, you can swap the type of poisons, usually ingested and inhaled poisons are strong and cheap, so convert them to contact poison ! (+Craft bonus)
- Class : Sneak attack: 2D6+1 / bomb 2D6+5

Unchained Rogue, Underground Chemsist, Scout, Poisoner 4:
- Precise Splash Weapons (Ex): We can now sneak attack with Bombs and alchemical items, for a total of 4D6+6.
- Scout’s Charge (Ex) : A charge grants a sneak attack => synergizes well with charging hurler but costs 2 feats...
- Debilitating Injury (Ex) : Debuff like hell, if your first Sneak attack hit, you can choose your ennemy to get -4 AC versus all your next attack and stack rounds! The malus can be increased by debuffing dex too with pressure points. Or you can add some strengh malus if you think the target is gonna survive and would be able to retaliate.
- +1 Ability: Prolly dex.

Unchained Rogue, Underground Chemsist, Scout, Poisoner 4 / SnakeBiter 1:
- Feat(free): Unarmed strikes (1D4)
- Feat(lv5): Two weapon fighting
- Sneak attack: +1D6 => 3D6+1 / bombs 3D6+5
- Brawler's Cunning (Ex) : useless for us
- Martial training: also useless for us
- Dip : +2ref +2con +1bba

This dip now allows us to get 6 attack when doing a full attack, so more pressure points / Debiliatating injury stacks / damage.

Unchained Rogue, Underground Chemsist, Scout, Poisoner 5 / SnakeBiter 1:
- Sneak attack: 4D6+1 / Bombs 4D6+5
- Rogue edge's : dunno which skill to choose

At this point at range throw bombs that can deal 8D6+6 on sneak attack as ranged tuch and splashes for 5 damage.
And a full attack while flaking does:
Claw +11 1D4+4+4d6+1, Claw +11 1D4+4+4d6+1, Bite +6 1D3+4d6+1, Tail +6 1D2+4d6+1, Kick +6 1D4+4D6+1, Kick+6 1D4+4D6+1
If your first attack is made while invisible (+2 att and ennemy denied his dex), you debiliate really easily your ennemy for -4CA for all other attacks and you can at the end stack up to 6 pressure points debuff and increase the debiliate length, and your tail can also poison the ennemy.

I included any item in the build, but the Amulet of Mighty Fists is a must have. You can grant it agile for DEX to damage and improve all your attacks.

At this level we got a little genious monster with huge damage output, great debuff, some ranged options, and 68 skills points to invest to have fun outside of fights.
The SnakeBiter dip, is good because of the extra hp, bba, saves, and accelerates the sneak attack damage by 1 level (we got 4D6 at 6, instead of 7).
Actually any class that grants unmared strike can do the trick to add 2 extra attacks with two weapon fightning taken at the regular lv 5 feat).
For example A far Strike Monk can grant quick draw (Alchemical items can be drawn like weaponz in this build), an extra free feat, unarmed strike.
Warpriest can grant weapon focus, some minor blessing and castings, and unarmed strike feat with the right deity.

So what to you think about this little genious' build? Have any idea of improvements?

Ok let's assume MoG has some specifcatons and doesn't work with CM, what do you think about raging vitality and amplified rage?

By 'One roll or check' I understand that it can be an attack roll, a saving throw roll etc... or any skill check.
So you are telling me that +2 str isn't a morale bonus for an attack roll (which mecanicely gives +1 moral bonus for this specific roll). But something like bless should work then?

Cavall wrote:
2) no rage no amplified. Just the rage bonus. That's why Rage powers don't work because not actually raging. But this could be debated.

Check this situation: (for clarity i ll use Raging vitality to compare)

You are raging and your raging vitality grants +2 extra moral bonuses.
Then you stop raging, and moral bonuses of the rage, and the raging vitality feat persist 2 rounds.

It's obvious that you can't use rage powers because you are no longer in the raging state, and community minded doesn't extend that, it extends EVERY moral bonuses of the EFFECTS that granted them. Those effects were activated at a time, then deactivated a while after, and that should be enough to trigger community minded.

Why shouldn't the spell (or effect) that briefly granted a specifc moral bonuses (which ended because of the only one charge roll) last 2 more rounds? At a specifc time it granted a bonus, then stopped => community minded should trigger .

I'm starting to think that this is the cause of the global confusion: we somehow believe that in order to trigger community minded, the effect or spell must grant moral bonuses for X rounds to be extended. That's not what it says...

Hey guys, here is the situation:

I have a skald using raging Song on one( or many others, it doesn't change the situation) ally and the Skald himself.

So both actually are under an effect that grants Morale bonuses.
Ok now, read carefully
The Skald now casts moment of greatness: While I might understand that the spell itself doesn't grant moral bonuses, it doubles the moral bonuses of the raging song let's say from a +2str to +4str (or +1will to +2 will, w/e bonus you have) for one roll only.

On the next round : the skald have all of his actions

The skald now attacks with his moral strength bonus doubled, questions:

1) Can he once he has the bonus doubled, stop raging, thus activating the community minded trait, while it was temporarly granting him double of his strength bonus, for 2 more turns?

2) If you dont use the bonus and stop raging, community minded kicks in and you get 2 extra round of moral bonuses. If you were also under amplified rage effect, the moral bonus is also extended by 2 more rounds because you no longer fill the conditions => you are no more raging, right?

3) Can we apply the previous example (2) to the spell moment of greatness because of this :

Community Minded wrote:
Benefit(s): Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds.

Even if the 'morale bonuses you confer upon your allies trough your own spell' lasts for just 1 roll, it still matches the description of the comminty minded benefits, and thus the same base bonus that was doubled by the spell is also extended for 2 rounds?

4) If none of those situations work: Is there any f@+$ing way to get this work? (without optimistic gambler which is a campaign trait and usually banned)


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