Low CON player races in PFS?


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Scarab Sages

Had a thread before regarding characters with low Con scores in PFS.

Mostly curious, how do Elves and Tengu fair in PFS?

Is that -2 starting CON as crippling as it looks?

Do you run into issues where other players criticize your race or build choices because your CON is so low?

1/5

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Most the time they are ranged and have a 12 con.

Grand Lodge 5/5 *

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I don't generally suggest them for new players, but it's not that bad. Most of my builds start with 12 CON though, for the ones that are more CON dependent (my tank/bodyguard warpriest, oradin, barbarian) I probably wouldn't choose either. Both can be fairly tanky depending on build which certainly adds to survivability. It mostly depends on what you're looking to build and how you play.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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It's riskier, but doable.

5/5 5/55/55/5

I've had a tengu go from full health to original recipee extra crispy in one fireball from a 12 con...

Silver Crusade 4/5

I've never done those races as front liners, but as long as you're not tanking, you should be ok. I've got an elven wizard and sylph sky druid (casting focused) with 12 con each, and they've been fine, though they're still only levels 2 and 3.

I keep considering ideas for elven or tengu front liners, and not doing them, usually due to that con penalty. It's a shame, since their proficiency with elven curve blades could be great for many front line builds.

Actually, if you're doing a d10 hit die class, you can probably get away with them, even on the front line with 12 con. My problem is I keep considering them for ideas that are d8 front liners, and I just don't feel comfortable with a con below 14 on the front line with only d8 hit dice.

Grand Lodge 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
I've had a tengu go from full health to original recipee extra crispy in one fireball from a 12 con...

Hence why my tengu cleric is foregoing skill points in favor of HP.

Scarab Sages

I have several Elven characters - a Witch, an Alchemist, a Fighter/Wizard aspiring Arcane Archer, and an Occultist - and they all stick with their base 8 Constitution. They don't enter melee often, but they do sometimes (the Occultist more than the others).

I also have a Svetocher Dhampir Bloodrager whose Constitution I increased to 12 because Bloodrage rounds are influenced by Constitution modifier (this I've been finding a tad more constraining, and plan to turn him into a Skald at the end of his present adventure, although that is NOT the primary reason).

Finally, I have a Human Monk and an Aasimar Cleric. I DUMPED their Constution to 8 (although the Monk took Toughness). >:D

Guess how many deaths I've suffered in Society?:
1 - and it was very recent, after playing semi-regularly since 2011. It was my aforementioned Alchemist, and it was ONLY because he was the only Elf in the party when they happened to face a harpy archer who was written to have an obsessive homicidal hatred of Elves, so she ignored the closer and scarier enemies to arrow me to death (also, she got a critical hit or two, I believe).

Regarding your last question: I'm not sure it has ever happened to me, but anyone who thinks they have a right to behave that way should be kicked from the table. Just another example of how the people who are most fixated on "being a team player" are themselves the ones most liable to cause problems.

1/5

Some people feel 7 hp per level (5+2) is okay for a front liner, so a d10 with a 12 (6+1) gets enough HP or using FCB (5+1+1).

Some feel 8 per level is needed (5+2+1) so a d10 using FCB (6+1+1) or taking toughness (5+1+1+1) gets enough HP.

Some feel that 9 or more per level is needed and thus they don't view d8s as being front line worthy.

Some feel that a 14 con and FCB to HP is needed for all classes and thus a con penalty doesn't work, regardless of how much HP they are actually getting a level.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

Actual Experience:

12 CON Elf (Chained) Barbarian: Died twice in 12 levels of PFS scenarios. Once to a lucky crit, and once for being an idiot. Close, plenty of times. Got great use out of Mistmail and potions of enlarge person.

14 CON Elf Transmuter (with floating +X in STR): Mirror image, yo. (Also a pile of "if you hit me" damage effects- -hyperboreal robe, spellstoring silk armor with vampiric touch in it). Didn't spend the whole time mixing it up with her longsword, but when she did she held her own. Never died- -close once. Currently level 14.

10 CON Halfling Rogue: Besides getting crit by a cannon golem and needing two breath of lifes in a Seeker-leveled module, was only in the single digits once. Withdraw + Stealth to save her life. Currently Level 15.

10 CON Human Bard: Died once while buying the rest of the party enough time to kill the only remaining enemy. Close plenty of times. Of the three, most likely to hang back and let the bruiser-types get up front. Retired @ Level 12.

Silver Crusade 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I've had a tengu go from full health to original recipee extra crispy in one fireball from a 12 con...

Tastes like chicken.

1/5

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The real trick is playing an elf with a 5 con and being a d6 class, no FCB for hp or toughness or familiar that boosts it.
Rock the 3 +1 per level HP.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I've had a tengu go from full health to original recipee extra crispy in one fireball from a 12 con...
Hence why my tengu cleric is foregoing skill points in favor of HP.

Still crispied.

Gotta love bonekeeps

Grand Lodge 4/5

Aww c'mon, Bonekeep is not your average experience. I hope.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

I have a wizard character concept for an elf with a 5 Con, but having 11 HP at level 9 is not something I'm interested in pursuing in PFS. Maybe a home-game where my GM has more flexibility to adjust challenges based on the PCs and support/develop character themes and concepts.

Personally, I don't have an issue with low-Con characters, but I've seem players who express their disapproving opinions with said players, even refusing to help get them raised or even healed because they disagree with the player's choice to build said character.

1/5

specific individual experiences are specific and individual but
on the whole it is fine
just do not dump CON, get it up to a 10 or 12 at the least
and consider less MAD classes/archetypes if you pick a race that has a CON minus

Shadow Lodge 4/5

The difference of about 12 hp during your PFS career is not really relevant. Except when it is!

I dunno, the only times I've missed having more hp has been with con 14 + d10 characters. And then I've usually needed 15-20 more. Crits, man.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

I've played a fair few elves and a tiefling so far and things have gone well but I wouldn't want to build a tank with one. Worked best with the full spellcaster than the others, of course... overland flight plus the option for mirror image or invisibility solve a lot of AC/HP problems. A level 11 archaeologist with 10 con did nearly get taken out by a maximized fireball after crit failing the save... twice... but other than that, not too many close calls even.

I've got a Con 12 elven investigator-ish type who's going to be an occasional frontliner, and we'll see how that goes, but I'm pretty optimistic.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Yeah, some people are jerks about the character choices of others. I still remember one time I had a PC die, and someone commented "Well what do you expect with only 12 con?" Not only wasn't I playing a front line character, but my PC had only died because I'd moved within 30 feet of the front line so I could channel heal the rest of the party.

Edit: Wow, ninja x3. I was responding to Bob's last paragraph.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

I'm quite curious how people who have long careers with low Con manage to do that. Especially the ones boasting about being frontline. If there's some tactical art I don't know yet, I'd like to learn it.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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"Kill everything before it gets a chance to kill you."

I'll let you know how my tengu cleric of Erastil with Growth and Feather subdomains does. Swift action Enlarge Person and a x4 crit tetsubo can be ludicrous.

Lantern Lodge 5/5 * RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

I have a friend who had an elf magus with an 8 Con. After nearly killing her 3 scenarios in a row (technically I did once, but she was breath of life'ed, she invested in a +2 Con belt and the Toughness feat. She's at level 9 with that PC, maybe 10.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

"Pick your spots, stay mobile. Never get full-attacked."

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jeff Hazuka wrote:
"Pick your spots, stay mobile. Never get full-attacked."

Yeah, those really aren't doable if you're melee. Or a lot of things really.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

I do have a semi-frontliner with a low Con: a Samsaran monk/inquisitor/evangelist (prestige class) of Irori.

I did put two points into Con to bump it up to 10 starting. He's 8th level now and hasn't died once. Though he was once the only survivor of a near-TPK and once one of two to survive, including the death of his animal companion (he's a sacred huntmaster) both times. I've bought a +2 Con belt since then as well to get up to 12 Con.

So how do I do it? Well, I need to start by saying that this character started from a role-playing concept and I ended up with an odd combat role. I stand at the front lines but I'm not really a threat. His biggest contributions are social/skills (tons of skill points) and the ability to buff and heal. Especially buff (the monk level is Sensei). The white tiger animal companion is the real combatant. Although the Samsaran is at the front line he's mainly there to provide a flank or to run off and heal someone if necessary. Between the monk level (wisdom), fighting defensively, and combat expertise he's rocking a touch AC of about 24. By the time you add in mage armor, barkskin, and possibly using Mentor (the tiger) for cover he's really hard to hit at all. And he has some pretty good saves as well.

Why was he the only TPK survivor? Circumstances.:
Both times I had moved away from the front lines to heal ranged characters who were getting hammered. A series of heavy blows and some AoE that I was the only one who saved against meant I was surrounded by my dead compatriots. There's a big difference in fighting to the last man and being the last man. He wisely realized he couldn't win the fight by himself at which point I jumped into a nearby waterfall (both times!), took some damage from the rocks at the bottom, and floated down the stream with less than 5 hit points.

That's not to say that my characters don't die. My -1, -2, and -3 characters all had much higher Con scores but collectively had 6 deaths by level 11. Sometimes your characters die. To be honest I expected this character to die at least once or twice before all his buffs starting coming online but it was worth it to me for the concept I had.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Con 12 is quite survivable if not a front liner. Especially with favored class bonus going to hit points. I've got a couple of L9+ Tengus

But one thing that I've found in higher level play (L9+ or so) is that, every now and then despite ones best efforts, one just needs Hit Points. So most of my characters tend to at least strongly consider getting toughness at some point and either a belt or Ioun stone to raise their Con.

And keep their cloaks of resistance up and even sometimes buy Great Fortitude (poor fort saves can also be a killer, of course)

Lantern Lodge 5/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jeff Hazuka wrote:
"Pick your spots, stay mobile. Never get full-attacked."
Yeah, those really aren't doable if you're melee. Or a lot of things really.

Let's make it simple. You're level 1. There's a ghoul.

If you stay adjacent, it attacks you three times. If you move away, provoking, it attacks you twice. If you tumble away, it might only get to attack you once.

It's not rocket surgery.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

My tengu slayer has a 12 Con and is a front-liner (but not a tank). (Stats after racial: Str 16, Dex, 14 Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 7.) Does put his FCB into HP.

Seems to do fine so far with 20 hp and AC 18 at level 2. The character gets a lot more versatile at level 5, so hopefully he'll survive until then, but I'm not overly worried.

4/5 ****

Jeff Hazuka wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jeff Hazuka wrote:
"Pick your spots, stay mobile. Never get full-attacked."
Yeah, those really aren't doable if you're melee. Or a lot of things really.

Let's make it simple. You're level 1. There's a ghoul.

If you stay adjacent, it attacks you three times. If you move away, provoking, it attacks you twice. If you tumble away, it might only get to attack you once.

It's not rocket surgery.

Last time I did that around level 5 another character charged the 4 armed construct, and got killed by the construct full attacking and critting on the 4th attack.

Not only does it require you to think of it, it requires your companions to do it as well.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Ugh, I tried to convince my party not to charge in and instead let the ghouls come to us. Sadly, they were all Jenkins clanfolk. :/

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Jeff Hazuka wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jeff Hazuka wrote:
"Pick your spots, stay mobile. Never get full-attacked."
Yeah, those really aren't doable if you're melee. Or a lot of things really.

Let's make it simple. You're level 1. There's a ghoul.

If you stay adjacent, it attacks you three times. If you move away, provoking, it attacks you twice. If you tumble away, it might only get to attack you once.

It's not rocket surgery.

Front liners also generally take on the responsibility of defending the squishies. They have the AC and fort saves to do so.

A group where nobody is willing to take on that role is a group that, in general, is going to have a LOT of difficulties in succeeding. Quite likely with quite a few squishy deaths :-(

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jeff Hazuka wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jeff Hazuka wrote:
"Pick your spots, stay mobile. Never get full-attacked."
Yeah, those really aren't doable if you're melee. Or a lot of things really.

Let's make it simple. You're level 1. There's a ghoul.

If you stay adjacent, it attacks you three times. If you move away, provoking, it attacks you twice. If you tumble away, it might only get to attack you once.

It's not rocket surgery.

If you need to move up to it , you move up and swing, you're done.

Unless of course you stay in the back and let it full attack someone ELSE while you contemplate your navel.

Its probably going to full attack someone.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
TOZ wrote:
If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)

there are parties that AREN"T from the jenkins clan?

1/5

TOZ wrote:
If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)

But then the rogue running in is yelling at you for not providing flanking :P

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Bah. No one plays rogues.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

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The 'let the enemy come to you' strategy works especially well if the people behind you are throwing control spells or arrow volleys.

Teamwork makes the dream work.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 *

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I've had a tengu go from full health to original recipee extra crispy in one fireball from a 12 con...

I think I was there for that one. Was it an online game? It was a horrible last enoucnter as I recall.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Jeff Hazuka wrote:
The 'let the enemy come to you' strategy works especially well if the people behind you are throwing control spells or arrow volleys.

I recall two giant worms appearing. My dwarven Holy Vindicator stood between them and the party and waited. My wife's archer killed one, I tanked the charge and then we both continued full attacking.

3/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Thomas Hutchins wrote:
TOZ wrote:
If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)
But then the rogue running in is yelling at you for not providing flanking :P

This is what we call a self correcting problem.

Silver Crusade

My strength-based tengu magus is halfway through 11 and he's never died, and he's a HUGE risktaker. Played Storval Stairs with him too, even (with the most tactically-sound GM I know, even).

My policy is to always spend at least 5 points of my point-buy on con, so he started with a 12. He has a +str/dex/con belt to get it up to 14, he's put all of his FCBs into HP and he's had toughness since level 1.

The Exchange 5/5

Steps in looks around ...

This again?

older thread

Not sure if I want to step into this discussion ... No, wounds from before still sting, so not going to post an opinion

The Exchange 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
TOZ wrote:
Bah. No one plays rogues.

What? You don't see us? Guess you don't have enough ranks in perception then... (Wink!)

1/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
TOZ wrote:
If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)
there are parties that AREN"T from the jenkins clan?

I GMed a game last week, and the players needed to double move to get to the zombies, so the fighter single-moved out front and readied to hit when they walked up to him. Then, one of the other players looked at the situation, shrugged, said "I guess I'm going to ruin your readied action," and double moved to be next to the zombies.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Jane "The Knife" wrote:
What? You don't see us?

I see more than you know.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Runt_ wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

I've had a tengu go from full health to original recipee extra crispy in one fireball from a 12 con...

I think I was there for that one. Was it an online game? It was a horrible last enoucnter as I recall.

Was it the full bucket of wings BBQ night? Because my tengu an axebeak and an eagle? companion all died

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 *

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Runt_ wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

I've had a tengu go from full health to original recipee extra crispy in one fireball from a 12 con...

I think I was there for that one. Was it an online game? It was a horrible last enoucnter as I recall.
Was it the full bucket of wings BBQ night? Because my tengu an axebeak and an eagle? companion all died

Yup.. I was the last one with feathers standing.. both axebeaks died.. you got nailed in the final encounter and I think the falcon was first right?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Yeesh, glad I missed that one.

4/5

FileTransferProdigal wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
TOZ wrote:
If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)
there are parties that AREN"T from the jenkins clan?
I GMed a game last week, and the players needed to double move to get to the zombies, so the fighter single-moved out front and readied to hit when they walked up to him. Then, one of the other players looked at the situation, shrugged, said "I guess I'm going to ruin your readied action," and double moved to be next to the zombies.

I know someone like that, I usually let him die, shake my head and move on.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5 *

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Yeesh, glad I missed that one.

Oh yeah.. and it was a massive blood bath.. but aside from everything with feathers the rest of us did well

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