BartonOliver |
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I don't generally suggest them for new players, but it's not that bad. Most of my builds start with 12 CON though, for the ones that are more CON dependent (my tank/bodyguard warpriest, oradin, barbarian) I probably wouldn't choose either. Both can be fairly tanky depending on build which certainly adds to survivability. It mostly depends on what you're looking to build and how you play.
Fromper |
I've never done those races as front liners, but as long as you're not tanking, you should be ok. I've got an elven wizard and sylph sky druid (casting focused) with 12 con each, and they've been fine, though they're still only levels 2 and 3.
I keep considering ideas for elven or tengu front liners, and not doing them, usually due to that con penalty. It's a shame, since their proficiency with elven curve blades could be great for many front line builds.
Actually, if you're doing a d10 hit die class, you can probably get away with them, even on the front line with 12 con. My problem is I keep considering them for ideas that are d8 front liners, and I just don't feel comfortable with a con below 14 on the front line with only d8 hit dice.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet |
I have several Elven characters - a Witch, an Alchemist, a Fighter/Wizard aspiring Arcane Archer, and an Occultist - and they all stick with their base 8 Constitution. They don't enter melee often, but they do sometimes (the Occultist more than the others).
I also have a Svetocher Dhampir Bloodrager whose Constitution I increased to 12 because Bloodrage rounds are influenced by Constitution modifier (this I've been finding a tad more constraining, and plan to turn him into a Skald at the end of his present adventure, although that is NOT the primary reason).
Finally, I have a Human Monk and an Aasimar Cleric. I DUMPED their Constution to 8 (although the Monk took Toughness). >:D
Regarding your last question: I'm not sure it has ever happened to me, but anyone who thinks they have a right to behave that way should be kicked from the table. Just another example of how the people who are most fixated on "being a team player" are themselves the ones most liable to cause problems.
Chess Pwn |
Some people feel 7 hp per level (5+2) is okay for a front liner, so a d10 with a 12 (6+1) gets enough HP or using FCB (5+1+1).
Some feel 8 per level is needed (5+2+1) so a d10 using FCB (6+1+1) or taking toughness (5+1+1+1) gets enough HP.
Some feel that 9 or more per level is needed and thus they don't view d8s as being front line worthy.
Some feel that a 14 con and FCB to HP is needed for all classes and thus a con penalty doesn't work, regardless of how much HP they are actually getting a level.
Jayson MF Kip |
Actual Experience:
12 CON Elf (Chained) Barbarian: Died twice in 12 levels of PFS scenarios. Once to a lucky crit, and once for being an idiot. Close, plenty of times. Got great use out of Mistmail and potions of enlarge person.
14 CON Elf Transmuter (with floating +X in STR): Mirror image, yo. (Also a pile of "if you hit me" damage effects- -hyperboreal robe, spellstoring silk armor with vampiric touch in it). Didn't spend the whole time mixing it up with her longsword, but when she did she held her own. Never died- -close once. Currently level 14.
10 CON Halfling Rogue: Besides getting crit by a cannon golem and needing two breath of lifes in a Seeker-leveled module, was only in the single digits once. Withdraw + Stealth to save her life. Currently Level 15.
10 CON Human Bard: Died once while buying the rest of the party enough time to kill the only remaining enemy. Close plenty of times. Of the three, most likely to hang back and let the bruiser-types get up front. Retired @ Level 12.
TwilightKnight |
I have a wizard character concept for an elf with a 5 Con, but having 11 HP at level 9 is not something I'm interested in pursuing in PFS. Maybe a home-game where my GM has more flexibility to adjust challenges based on the PCs and support/develop character themes and concepts.
Personally, I don't have an issue with low-Con characters, but I've seem players who express their disapproving opinions with said players, even refusing to help get them raised or even healed because they disagree with the player's choice to build said character.
Terminalmancer |
I've played a fair few elves and a tiefling so far and things have gone well but I wouldn't want to build a tank with one. Worked best with the full spellcaster than the others, of course... overland flight plus the option for mirror image or invisibility solve a lot of AC/HP problems. A level 11 archaeologist with 10 con did nearly get taken out by a maximized fireball after crit failing the save... twice... but other than that, not too many close calls even.
I've got a Con 12 elven investigator-ish type who's going to be an occasional frontliner, and we'll see how that goes, but I'm pretty optimistic.
Fromper |
Yeah, some people are jerks about the character choices of others. I still remember one time I had a PC die, and someone commented "Well what do you expect with only 12 con?" Not only wasn't I playing a front line character, but my PC had only died because I'd moved within 30 feet of the front line so I could channel heal the rest of the party.
Edit: Wow, ninja x3. I was responding to Bob's last paragraph.
Ascalaphus Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden |
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Belafon |
I do have a semi-frontliner with a low Con: a Samsaran monk/inquisitor/evangelist (prestige class) of Irori.
I did put two points into Con to bump it up to 10 starting. He's 8th level now and hasn't died once. Though he was once the only survivor of a near-TPK and once one of two to survive, including the death of his animal companion (he's a sacred huntmaster) both times. I've bought a +2 Con belt since then as well to get up to 12 Con.
So how do I do it? Well, I need to start by saying that this character started from a role-playing concept and I ended up with an odd combat role. I stand at the front lines but I'm not really a threat. His biggest contributions are social/skills (tons of skill points) and the ability to buff and heal. Especially buff (the monk level is Sensei). The white tiger animal companion is the real combatant. Although the Samsaran is at the front line he's mainly there to provide a flank or to run off and heal someone if necessary. Between the monk level (wisdom), fighting defensively, and combat expertise he's rocking a touch AC of about 24. By the time you add in mage armor, barkskin, and possibly using Mentor (the tiger) for cover he's really hard to hit at all. And he has some pretty good saves as well.
That's not to say that my characters don't die. My -1, -2, and -3 characters all had much higher Con scores but collectively had 6 deaths by level 11. Sometimes your characters die. To be honest I expected this character to die at least once or twice before all his buffs starting coming online but it was worth it to me for the concept I had.
pauljathome |
Con 12 is quite survivable if not a front liner. Especially with favored class bonus going to hit points. I've got a couple of L9+ Tengus
But one thing that I've found in higher level play (L9+ or so) is that, every now and then despite ones best efforts, one just needs Hit Points. So most of my characters tend to at least strongly consider getting toughness at some point and either a belt or Ioun stone to raise their Con.
And keep their cloaks of resistance up and even sometimes buy Great Fortitude (poor fort saves can also be a killer, of course)
Jayson MF Kip |
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Jeff Hazuka wrote:"Pick your spots, stay mobile. Never get full-attacked."Yeah, those really aren't doable if you're melee. Or a lot of things really.
Let's make it simple. You're level 1. There's a ghoul.
If you stay adjacent, it attacks you three times. If you move away, provoking, it attacks you twice. If you tumble away, it might only get to attack you once.
It's not rocket surgery.
Michael Hallet |
My tengu slayer has a 12 Con and is a front-liner (but not a tank). (Stats after racial: Str 16, Dex, 14 Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 7.) Does put his FCB into HP.
Seems to do fine so far with 20 hp and AC 18 at level 2. The character gets a lot more versatile at level 5, so hopefully he'll survive until then, but I'm not overly worried.
Pirate Rob |
BigNorseWolf wrote:Jeff Hazuka wrote:"Pick your spots, stay mobile. Never get full-attacked."Yeah, those really aren't doable if you're melee. Or a lot of things really.Let's make it simple. You're level 1. There's a ghoul.
If you stay adjacent, it attacks you three times. If you move away, provoking, it attacks you twice. If you tumble away, it might only get to attack you once.
It's not rocket surgery.
Last time I did that around level 5 another character charged the 4 armed construct, and got killed by the construct full attacking and critting on the 4th attack.
Not only does it require you to think of it, it requires your companions to do it as well.
pauljathome |
BigNorseWolf wrote:Jeff Hazuka wrote:"Pick your spots, stay mobile. Never get full-attacked."Yeah, those really aren't doable if you're melee. Or a lot of things really.Let's make it simple. You're level 1. There's a ghoul.
If you stay adjacent, it attacks you three times. If you move away, provoking, it attacks you twice. If you tumble away, it might only get to attack you once.
It's not rocket surgery.
Front liners also generally take on the responsibility of defending the squishies. They have the AC and fort saves to do so.
A group where nobody is willing to take on that role is a group that, in general, is going to have a LOT of difficulties in succeeding. Quite likely with quite a few squishy deaths :-(
BigNorseWolf |
BigNorseWolf wrote:Jeff Hazuka wrote:"Pick your spots, stay mobile. Never get full-attacked."Yeah, those really aren't doable if you're melee. Or a lot of things really.Let's make it simple. You're level 1. There's a ghoul.
If you stay adjacent, it attacks you three times. If you move away, provoking, it attacks you twice. If you tumble away, it might only get to attack you once.
It's not rocket surgery.
If you need to move up to it , you move up and swing, you're done.
Unless of course you stay in the back and let it full attack someone ELSE while you contemplate your navel.
Its probably going to full attack someone.
Chess Pwn |
If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)
But then the rogue running in is yelling at you for not providing flanking :P
TriOmegaZero |
The 'let the enemy come to you' strategy works especially well if the people behind you are throwing control spells or arrow volleys.
I recall two giant worms appearing. My dwarven Holy Vindicator stood between them and the party and waited. My wife's archer killed one, I tanked the charge and then we both continued full attacking.
Ryzoken |
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TOZ wrote:If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)But then the rogue running in is yelling at you for not providing flanking :P
This is what we call a self correcting problem.
Hrothdane |
My strength-based tengu magus is halfway through 11 and he's never died, and he's a HUGE risktaker. Played Storval Stairs with him too, even (with the most tactically-sound GM I know, even).
My policy is to always spend at least 5 points of my point-buy on con, so he started with a 12. He has a +str/dex/con belt to get it up to 14, he's put all of his FCBs into HP and he's had toughness since level 1.
nosig |
FileTransferProdigal |
TOZ wrote:If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)there are parties that AREN"T from the jenkins clan?
I GMed a game last week, and the players needed to double move to get to the zombies, so the fighter single-moved out front and readied to hit when they walked up to him. Then, one of the other players looked at the situation, shrugged, said "I guess I'm going to ruin your readied action," and double moved to be next to the zombies.
BigNorseWolf |
BigNorseWolf wrote:I think I was there for that one. Was it an online game? It was a horrible last enoucnter as I recall.I've had a tengu go from full health to original recipee extra crispy in one fireball from a 12 con...
Was it the full bucket of wings BBQ night? Because my tengu an axebeak and an eagle? companion all died
Runt_ |
Runt_ wrote:Was it the full bucket of wings BBQ night? Because my tengu an axebeak and an eagle? companion all diedBigNorseWolf wrote:I think I was there for that one. Was it an online game? It was a horrible last enoucnter as I recall.I've had a tengu go from full health to original recipee extra crispy in one fireball from a 12 con...
Yup.. I was the last one with feathers standing.. both axebeaks died.. you got nailed in the final encounter and I think the falcon was first right?
Mulgar |
BigNorseWolf wrote:I GMed a game last week, and the players needed to double move to get to the zombies, so the fighter single-moved out front and readied to hit when they walked up to him. Then, one of the other players looked at the situation, shrugged, said "I guess I'm going to ruin your readied action," and double moved to be next to the zombies.TOZ wrote:If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)there are parties that AREN"T from the jenkins clan?
I know someone like that, I usually let him die, shake my head and move on.