Low CON player races in PFS?


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The Exchange 5/5

Auris Deftfoot wrote:
Jane "The Knife" wrote:
What? You don't see us?
I see more than you know.

Or perhaps not as much as you think....lol!

Grand Lodge 5/5

Truly, logic is wasted on this one.


Mulgar wrote:
FileTransferProdigal wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
TOZ wrote:
If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)
there are parties that AREN"T from the jenkins clan?
I GMed a game last week, and the players needed to double move to get to the zombies, so the fighter single-moved out front and readied to hit when they walked up to him. Then, one of the other players looked at the situation, shrugged, said "I guess I'm going to ruin your readied action," and double moved to be next to the zombies.
I know someone like that, I usually let him die, shake my head and move on.

I was running "The Confirmation" and during the whole game, he had this attitude of "I made a front-line melee character, I MUST be the one that kills everything," and was generally trying to be glory-hog the whole game, even seeming like he was trying to set up the final combat to where he could solo it (he looked so disappointed when one of the other players crit-killed the boss). And this is a someone who's played way more PFS than I have. After the game, I realized I should have had the babysitter give a short lecture on the importance of acting like a team in PFS at the end of the scenario. She goes on about teamwork the whole time she's there, so it seems like that would have fit in context.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Fighting defensively, total defense, having enough agility to make it work, picking fights...

The only times I've had issue thus far have been facing off against mummies and quicklings. That was a bit dicey because no one in the group had encountered either before.

So aside from the Mummy Procession of Doom that dinged me briefly with disease, and stupid quicklings moving at asinine speed (which most folks have problems with until they can act), having started with a lower endurance rating than the average Pathfinder hasn't been an issue for me.

The Exchange

I have a Zen Archer Tengu with 10 Con (I don't think I have any others with less than 12). His first adventure (a special) he was dropped to -9 on the first round of the first fight (when he was just a normal monk). Luckily he was rescued within the round and has been OK since then. He has a Shawl of life-keeping to help his low hp. Naturally he stays in the back.

3/5

Con is love. Con is life. My -1 Advanced Summoner started the game with 12 Con because I went kinds MAD with making him a great caster and a skill monkey (FCB skill loints for the Eidolon) too. He's been floored on multiple occasions. Even with a +4 Con belt, good AC and all-day flight he ends up in the red from time to time.

Then there's my Pharasman Pirate Witch. 14 Con, FCB into HPs, Belt of Con being her top priority buy/upgrade. I once ran a scenario where the party stumbled upon a Finger of Death trap, and the GM decided to go easy and ask who had the highest HP. In a fairly balanced party, it was me. Dropped me into negatives, but it would have gibbed most of the others.

So yeah. In my experience (as that guy who usually plays casters), HPs are a thing that you can treat like a luxury, but every now and then you will need EVERY POINT YOU CAN MANAGE. Crit Happens, after all, and some enemies like to Dimension Door in before initiative rolls.

Might be rolling a Thasolonian Necromancer Elf sometime soon. Their Fortitude-boosting race trait and Toughness can turn a 12 Con character into a respectable 14 Con character in everything but name.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Quote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
I'm quite curious how people who have long careers with low Con manage to do that. Especially the ones boasting about being frontline. If there's some tactical art I don't know yet, I'd like to learn it.
Kevin Willis wrote:
way too much about his character.

Realized how that was a "look at my character" post. So short answer for a front liner with low con is one of two ways:

1. Rely on winning initiative and finishing the fight in one or two rounds max. Max melee damage.
Downside = if you lose initiative while in the front or run up against something with great defenses against your specialty you are in immediate trouble.

2. Prepare for a long fight, gear up with lots of AC, and use actions like fighting defensively and combat expertise. Maybe spend your first round buffing up. Defense at the expense of offense. Hold the front line rather than try to "win" with melee attacks.
Downside = more chances for something to go wrong - a failed saving throw or a critical sneaking past your defenses.

1 is the "easier" way to play a low-Con frontliner. Though [personal opinion] I don't find it much fun from either side of the screen. Option 2 leads to a more tactical game but begs the question "why don't you have decent Con?" If you aren't doing damage what are you doing on the front line if you have low HP? Often an unusual build (focused on aid another comes to mind).

Silver Crusade 5/5

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"Low CON player races in PFS?"

Most of the players I've seen in PFS are human - there was that one guy at GenCON a few years back... But I'm pretty sure he was human...

Wait... Were you asking about PCs races or Player races? Never mind then....


Thomas Hutchins wrote:

The real trick is playing an elf with a 5 con and being a d6 class, no FCB for hp or toughness or familiar that boosts it.

Rock the 3 +1 per level HP. [/QUOTE

And dying at -5.

Dark Archive 5/5

I've got a frontline Sylph Magus/Swashbuckler whose strategy is to get people to try to hit him. It always ends poorly for them. Combat Reflexes, multiple ways to get reach, parry/riposte, Shield. Con matters less when things can't hit you.

Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka Gwen Smith

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I have had more than one front-line melee character with a 12 Con. I often run front liners with a 13 Con and bump it to 14 at level 4 or 8. I've had exactly one character death, and that character had a 14 con and d10 hit dice.

If you're concerned about your character dying, then play your character as smart as possible. Some suggestions:

1) Track how many hit points you're taking each round, and determine how many more rounds you can continue fighting. When you're at the point where you might not survive the next round, step back and drink a potion.

2) Don't run into crowds of bad guys by yourself. They will all full attack on their round, and if you are the only target, they will all full attack you.

3) Don't be afraid to tell the rest of your party that your character is really, really hurt. Call for help.

4) ALWAYS carry a cure light wounds potion and make sure everyone in your party knows where you keep it. That way, when (not if) you go to negative HP, anyone in your party can save your life even if they don't cast spells, can't use a wand, or don't have any healing potions. Your goal here isn't to get up and get back in the fight: your goal is to get stabilized so you don't bleed out.

5) At higher levels, keep a scroll of Breath of Life on hand. Pass it to someone who has a chance of casting it and ask them to use it on you if you go down. (I usually tell them to use it on anyone in the party who needs it, in line with suggestion #2.)

6) If you find yourself going unconscious a lot, consider getting an Aegis of Recovery, a Shawl of Life Keeping, or a con increasing item. Or some combination of these kind of items. (I'm a big fan of the Aegis of Recovery, myself.)

7) If you're running an old school barbarian (e.g., not unchained), watch out for that break point where you will automatically die when you go unconscious and drop out of rage. Definitely get an Aegis of Recovery, and grab Raging Vitality as soon as possible.

I'm sure other people have their own survival suggestions, too.


Dorothy Lindman wrote:
5) At higher levels, keep a scroll of Breath of Life on hand. Pass it to someone who has a chance of casting it and ask them to use it on you if you go down. (I usually tell them to use it on anyone in the party who needs it, in line with suggestion #2.)

The action economy involved in this precludes it functioning in a majority of situations. Move to draw scroll, Standard to activate, touch range. Suggest instead using First Aid Gloves if you're in possession of a copy of the Pathfinder Society Primer

The Exchange 4/5

Ryzoken wrote:
Dorothy Lindman wrote:
5) At higher levels, keep a scroll of Breath of Life on hand. Pass it to someone who has a chance of casting it and ask them to use it on you if you go down. (I usually tell them to use it on anyone in the party who needs it, in line with suggestion #2.)
The action economy involved in this precludes it functioning in a majority of situations. Move to draw scroll, Standard to activate, touch range. Suggest instead using First Aid Gloves if you're in possession of a copy of the Pathfinder Society Primer

the 'oh hell yeah' factor of those gloves is amazing. You can't believe how many lives I've seen it save.

Something like 3 sets of gloves got used in Emerald Spire.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Callie Del Noire wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:


The action economy involved in this precludes it functioning in a majority of situations. Move to draw scroll, Standard to activate, touch range. Suggest instead using First Aid Gloves if you're in possession of a copy of the Pathfinder Society Primer

the 'oh hell yeah' factor of those gloves is amazing. You can't believe how many lives I've seen it save.

Something like 3 sets of gloves got used in Emerald Spire.

Those gloves were the only thing that got our party (Sorcerer, Wizard, Pre-unchained Rogue. Pre-unchained Monk) through Eyes of the Ten without even even more deaths.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville aka Kyrie Ebonblade,

Kelly Youngblood wrote:
Callie Del Noire wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:


The action economy involved in this precludes it functioning in a majority of situations. Move to draw scroll, Standard to activate, touch range. Suggest instead using First Aid Gloves if you're in possession of a copy of the Pathfinder Society Primer

the 'oh hell yeah' factor of those gloves is amazing. You can't believe how many lives I've seen it save.

Something like 3 sets of gloves got used in Emerald Spire.

Those gloves were the only thing that got our party (Sorcerer, Wizard, Pre-unchained Rogue. Pre-unchained Monk) through Eyes of the Ten without even even more deaths.

Let's the see.. the two EotT that I've played/GM ..they have saved 4 lives. Including one specific NPC.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Buy scroll of breath of life

Buy glue

Glue scroll to back of cloak like a nametag

Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka Gwen Smith

Ryzoken wrote:
Dorothy Lindman wrote:
5) At higher levels, keep a scroll of Breath of Life on hand. Pass it to someone who has a chance of casting it and ask them to use it on you if you go down. (I usually tell them to use it on anyone in the party who needs it, in line with suggestion #2.)
The action economy involved in this precludes it functioning in a majority of situations. Move to draw scroll, Standard to activate, touch range. Suggest instead using First Aid Gloves if you're in possession of a copy of the Pathfinder Society Primer

Some GMs allow you to put a scroll in spring loaded wrist sheath, which lets you draw it as a swift action. I've also had my cleric draw the scroll if someone in the party looks like they are getting pounded.

I am a huge fan of First Aid Gloves, but many fighters save their hands slot for Gloves of Dueling. I came really close to suggesting that people carry a pair around and give them to someone with a free hands slot, but I thought they might be too expensive item for that.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville aka Kyrie Ebonblade,

Dorothy Lindman wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:
Dorothy Lindman wrote:
5) At higher levels, keep a scroll of Breath of Life on hand. Pass it to someone who has a chance of casting it and ask them to use it on you if you go down. (I usually tell them to use it on anyone in the party who needs it, in line with suggestion #2.)
The action economy involved in this precludes it functioning in a majority of situations. Move to draw scroll, Standard to activate, touch range. Suggest instead using First Aid Gloves if you're in possession of a copy of the Pathfinder Society Primer

Some GMs allow you to put a scroll in spring loaded wrist sheath, which lets you draw it as a swift action. I've also had my cleric draw the scroll if someone in the party looks like they are getting pounded.

I am a huge fan of First Aid Gloves, but many fighters save their hands slot for Gloves of Dueling. I came really close to suggesting that people carry a pair around and give them to someone with a free hands slot, but I thought they might be too expensive item for that.

Nope nope.. not at all. (I do it)


Bob Jonquet wrote:

I have a wizard character concept for an elf with a 5 Con, but having 11 HP at level 9 is not something I'm interested in pursuing in PFS. Maybe a home-game where my GM has more flexibility to adjust challenges based on the PCs and support/develop character themes and concepts.

Personally, I don't have an issue with low-Con characters, but I've seem players who express their disapproving opinions with said players, even refusing to help get them raised or even healed because they disagree with the player's choice to build said character.

I agree that players can build however they want, but this is still a team game. WHat I mean is. if you have a character with a serious weakness, let the other players know at the start. Not just 5 con, but 5 str, negative will save, or whatever.

Dropping a character in surprise on a group for a team game is a selfish move if the team can not prepare for it. For example if I know you have 5 con. I will ask if you need me to step in front of you more, and such. If you do not tell me and I focus on something else allowing a creature to take a hit on you and killing, well now we are a man short and that's when things get deadly for everyone else.

Liberty's Edge

Storys of a front line Elven Cavalier of the Dragon, 13 CON (14 at level 4):

I love elves, they are pretty, they are fun. I find humans boring.

So when I joined PFS with my wife and sister in law we all rolled up elven siblings. The Ver'Ha clan. We had a rogue, an anti undead cleric, and me, an Honor Guard Cavalier of the Order of the Dragon. This was Liran Ver'Ha. He came to be known as The Wall. He was a frontline fighter par none. Combat Patrol, Lance, Bodyguard, Golden Legionaire, Order of the Dragon, HIGH initiative. He was something like STR 16, DEX 16, CON 14 at the end of his career (he just completed eyes of the ten and gave absolutely no cares to anything in there). I cannot tell you how many times, people told me I was an idiot, I am paraphrasing here. I am going to die horribly, or I am going to be a liability to the party. They were COMPLETELY wrong.

How do I play an elven frontline fighter with low con? By making the rest of the party so much better and nigh unhittable that fights don't last more than 2 rounds. Siege of the Diamond City? He was the sole reason our table was the best table. Eyes of the Ten? The only reason the boss fights lasted more than two rounds was because multiple enemies. He was nearly unhittable at a usual AC 42, passing out +7-10 AC to his friends around him, and having his party be set up in the field outside of his own turn so the rogues and paladins didn't have to move, they could just get their full attack. Boots of Speed were an investment for their speed increase, not their additional attack. Did he kill anything? Not even close. But he was a force multiplier that FORCED teamwork, or you missed out on juicey juicey buffs.

If anyone seeing this has played with Liran Ver'Ha, the Elven frontline cavalier, or GMed for him, they can attest that CON does not a frontliner make. Con helps, but in Lirans entire career, Con was almost never a contributing factor.

Silver Crusade

I know of a 4 Con Elf Wizard with only 3 hit points.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
TOZ wrote:
If your team isn't from the Jenkins clan, then they let the enemy come to them so the enemy is moving and swinging once. (Possibly into a readied attack from you, since you are standing between them and the squishies.)
But then the rogue running in is yelling at you for not providing flanking :P

I get my flanking just fine :) (Spring attack, Gang up, Boots of Striding and Springing, high acrobatics)

Dark Archive Venture-Agent, Ireland—Cork aka Psyblade

Zach W. wrote:

Storys of a front line Elven Cavalier of the Dragon, 13 CON (14 at level 4):

I love elves, they are pretty, they are fun. I find humans boring.

So when I joined PFS with my wife and sister in law we all rolled up elven siblings. The Ver'Ha clan. We had a rogue, an anti undead cleric, and me, an Honor Guard Cavalier of the Order of the Dragon. This was Liran Ver'Ha. He came to be known as The Wall. He was a frontline fighter par none. Combat Patrol, Lance, Bodyguard, Golden Legionaire, Order of the Dragon, HIGH initiative. He was something like STR 16, DEX 16, CON 14 at the end of his career (he just completed eyes of the ten and gave absolutely no cares to anything in there). I cannot tell you how many times, people told me I was an idiot, I am paraphrasing here. I am going to die horribly, or I am going to be a liability to the party. They were COMPLETELY wrong.

How do I play an elven frontline fighter with low con? By making the rest of the party so much better and nigh unhittable that fights don't last more than 2 rounds. Siege of the Diamond City? He was the sole reason our table was the best table. Eyes of the Ten? The only reason the boss fights lasted more than two rounds was because multiple enemies. He was nearly unhittable at a usual AC 42, passing out +7-10 AC to his friends around him, and having his party be set up in the field outside of his own turn so the rogues and paladins didn't have to move, they could just get their full attack. Boots of Speed were an investment for their speed increase, not their additional attack. Did he kill anything? Not even close. But he was a force multiplier that FORCED teamwork, or you missed out on juicey juicey buffs.

If anyone seeing this has played with Liran Ver'Ha, the Elven frontline cavalier, or GMed for him, they can attest that CON does not a frontliner make. Con helps, but in Lirans entire career, Con was almost never a contributing factor.

I am curious what kind of build you have been running!

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:

The real trick is playing an elf with a 5 con and being a d6 class, no FCB for hp or toughness or familiar that boosts it.

Rock the 3 +1 per level HP.

And dying at -5.

I kind of wish playing a Wyrwoods were a thing. You can sort of play a construct in PFS but by sheer weirdness of that build your actual PC becomes the tankiest tank that ever did tank.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Dorothy Lindman wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:
Dorothy Lindman wrote:
5) At higher levels, keep a scroll of Breath of Life on hand. Pass it to someone who has a chance of casting it and ask them to use it on you if you go down. (I usually tell them to use it on anyone in the party who needs it, in line with suggestion #2.)
The action economy involved in this precludes it functioning in a majority of situations. Move to draw scroll, Standard to activate, touch range. Suggest instead using First Aid Gloves if you're in possession of a copy of the Pathfinder Society Primer

Some GMs allow you to put a scroll in spring loaded wrist sheath, which lets you draw it as a swift action. I've also had my cleric draw the scroll if someone in the party looks like they are getting pounded.

I am a huge fan of First Aid Gloves, but many fighters save their hands slot for Gloves of Dueling. I came really close to suggesting that people carry a pair around and give them to someone with a free hands slot, but I thought they might be too expensive item for that.

Actually they are even better that way. Because at least there is a chance then that the person who needs a breath of life is also the person who is going to be paying to buy a new glove...

My wife and I have first aid gloves on our characters who are high enough level to afford them, and we trade at the start of each game.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Psyblade wrote:
Zach W. wrote:

Storys of a front line Elven Cavalier of the Dragon, 13 CON (14 at level 4):

I love elves, they are pretty, they are fun. I find humans boring.

So when I joined PFS with my wife and sister in law we all rolled up elven siblings. The Ver'Ha clan. We had a rogue, an anti undead cleric, and me, an Honor Guard Cavalier of the Order of the Dragon. This was Liran Ver'Ha. He came to be known as The Wall. He was a frontline fighter par none. Combat Patrol, Lance, Bodyguard, Golden Legionaire, Order of the Dragon, HIGH initiative. He was something like STR 16, DEX 16, CON 14 at the end of his career (he just completed eyes of the ten and gave absolutely no cares to anything in there). I cannot tell you how many times, people told me I was an idiot, I am paraphrasing here. I am going to die horribly, or I am going to be a liability to the party. They were COMPLETELY wrong.

How do I play an elven frontline fighter with low con? By making the rest of the party so much better and nigh unhittable that fights don't last more than 2 rounds. Siege of the Diamond City? He was the sole reason our table was the best table. Eyes of the Ten? The only reason the boss fights lasted more than two rounds was because multiple enemies. He was nearly unhittable at a usual AC 42, passing out +7-10 AC to his friends around him, and having his party be set up in the field outside of his own turn so the rogues and paladins didn't have to move, they could just get their full attack. Boots of Speed were an investment for their speed increase, not their additional attack. Did he kill anything? Not even close. But he was a force multiplier that FORCED teamwork, or you missed out on juicey juicey buffs.

If anyone seeing this has played with Liran Ver'Ha, the Elven frontline cavalier, or GMed for him, they can attest that CON does not a frontliner make. Con helps, but in Lirans entire career, Con was almost never a contributing factor.

I am curious what kind of build you have been running!

Cavalier (Honor Guard) Order of the Dragon 8/Golden Legionnaire 5

Primary Feats: Combat Reflex, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Patrol

Traits: Threatening Defender, Warrior of Old (Elven Racial Trait)

Primary Abilities in a Turn:
United Defense(Golden Legionnaire): -1 AC to provide +2 bonus to dodge AC to adjacent Ally

Bodyguard/Honor Guard(Cavalier)/Aid Allies(Dragon)/Benevolent Armor/Improved Aid(Golden Legionnaire): Base Aid another = +2, Order of the Dragon changes this to +4 (Aid Allies), Intercept from Honor Guard +1, Benevolent +4 Armor, Improved Aid +1 = 4+1+4+1= +10 untyped AC bonus to an ally when using Bodyguard. This combo was the bread and butter with 4 AOO's per turn.

Sworn Protector(Cavalier): Choose another ally when you challenge an enemy, you take -1 AC penalty and they gain +1 Dodge.

Strategy(Dragon): Standard Action 30ft radius, all allies may choose one of the following immediately(1. +2 Dodge AC for 1 round, 2. +2 Moral bonus to attacks for 1 round, 3. Spend an Immediate Action to move up to your base speed once).

Tactician (Shield Wall)

Authoritative Command: Move Action 30 ft radius, any compliant ally who follows the given order receives a +1 competence bonus to Attack, Damage, Skill, Saves, and AC for 1 round.

Hold the Line: If a creature takes a 5 foot step out of an area both adjacent to and threatened by the Golden Legionnaire, or if the creature withdraws, it provokes an attack of opportunity.

Stand Still + Intercept: A Golden Legionnaire adds half her class levels to Stand Still.

Order of the Dragon Challenge: +4 to attack rolls made against the challenged target for allies.

Elven Immunities: This actually came up a LOT in low level and then higher when some enemy tactics called for sleep, or GM's tried sleeping the cavalier to prevent the aids due to his low will save.

+4 Benevolent Red Dragonhide Full Plate, +3 Darkwood Tower Shield (Shield Focus), Amulet +2 Nat Armor, Ring of Prot +2 = 38 AC, of course this heavily fluctuates dependent on abilities being utilized and not utilized.

2/5

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My Elven Psychic has 35 HP at level 7 and does just find.


I don't think I've ever played a PC below 12 CON in PFS. I have a tengu ranger that softens up targets with arrows before moving into melee, and that works well enough for the most part. I added +2 CON to my strength belt when I could, and try to keep his AC up. Sadly, they changed the Amatuer Swashbuckler feat, so no more parry without giving up a level. =/

I wouldn't recommend frontlining unless you had some other defenses, like a reliable means of blur or something, or a swashbuckler with really high AC.

Don't forget saves, too.

Silver Crusade 1/5

It's not a huge problem, but I don't think it's ever a good idea to actually dump CON.

I've got an elf and a tengu at the moment.

The elf is a dark tapestry oracle and started with CON 12. Favoured class bonuses are split between skills, hp, and revelation booster. Had some hairy moments at low levels. Got a CON belt at around level 5 or 6. Now level 9 with CON 14. It does help that I have False Life as a level 3 spell known and Displacement as a level 4 (ancient lorekeeper archetype).

The Tengu has CON 14 at level 2. Stat array is 16, 16, 14, 7, 15, 7. Whilst it might look like it hurts to spend 10 points on CON 14, the DEX boost offsets it in this array. This character is a melee Hunter and will put most fcb's into hp. No problems with hp so far.

My -1 was a half elf with a CON of 13. He died. Whilst 13 was low for a frontline character, he had decent AC and Toughness at level 5. He died once at level 3 to a great axe crit plus gore follow-up full attack, but my table was generous and everyone chipped in gold to pay for a raise dead (the death was in the last fight in a multi-table special). Perma-Death occurred at level 5, after a horrific series of unfortunate dice rolls. I'd have needed many more hp to survive. I had a max hp of 42 at level 5.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

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I have 3 -2 con race characters. Two of them are front liners. Both of those have Toughness. One is an 8th level Tengu Monk who tends to use up a lot of healing but has never died. The other is a 9th Level Elf Magus who has died 1 & 1/2 times. She has gone through two Bonekeeps and is currently in a holding pattern to do the third. I think they both do just fine. My non-front liner is a 5th level Core Elf Wizard Archer who has never gone unconscious. I do not see a problem with low Con races. Like any other character race choice they have strengths and weaknesses you can build to compensate for.

The Exchange 5/5

trollbill wrote:
I have 3 -2 con race characters. Two of them are front liners. Both of those have Toughness. One is an 8th level Tengu Monk who tends to use up a lot of healing but has never died. The other is a 9th Level Elf Magus who has died 1 & 1/2 times. She has gone through two Bonekeeps and is currently in a holding pattern to do the third. I think they both do just fine. My non-front liner is a 5th level Core Elf Wizard Archer who has never gone unconscious. I do not see a problem with low Con races. Like any other character race choice they have strengths and weaknesses you can build to compensate for.

When you get ready to play Bonekeep III I would feel honored to run it for you sir. MP me to tell me where you are - perhaps I can make a road trip to run it for you some weekend...

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

nosig wrote:
trollbill wrote:
I have 3 -2 con race characters. Two of them are front liners. Both of those have Toughness. One is an 8th level Tengu Monk who tends to use up a lot of healing but has never died. The other is a 9th Level Elf Magus who has died 1 & 1/2 times. She has gone through two Bonekeeps and is currently in a holding pattern to do the third. I think they both do just fine. My non-front liner is a 5th level Core Elf Wizard Archer who has never gone unconscious. I do not see a problem with low Con races. Like any other character race choice they have strengths and weaknesses you can build to compensate for.
When you get ready to play Bonekeep III I would feel honored to run it for you sir. MP me to tell me where you are - perhaps I can make a road trip to run it for you some weekend...

And I am equally honored by the offer. However I am already scheduled to play it at Megacon in Orlando at the end of this month. You are, of course, always welcome to join us.

The Exchange 5/5

trollbill wrote:
nosig wrote:
trollbill wrote:
I have 3 -2 con race characters. Two of them are front liners. Both of those have Toughness. One is an 8th level Tengu Monk who tends to use up a lot of healing but has never died. The other is a 9th Level Elf Magus who has died 1 & 1/2 times. She has gone through two Bonekeeps and is currently in a holding pattern to do the third. I think they both do just fine. My non-front liner is a 5th level Core Elf Wizard Archer who has never gone unconscious. I do not see a problem with low Con races. Like any other character race choice they have strengths and weaknesses you can build to compensate for.
When you get ready to play Bonekeep III I would feel honored to run it for you sir. MP me to tell me where you are - perhaps I can make a road trip to run it for you some weekend...
And I am equally honored by the offer. However I am already scheduled to play it at Megacon in Orlando at the end of this month. You are, of course, always welcome to join us.

LOL! Would love to (would even change my mind and play another Bonekeep after swearing never to play another), but sadly from St. Louis is a bit far to drive... May take more than the weekend I could invest. Hope you have fun! (I've run it once - it can be fun with with right group...as with most PFS games).

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Heh. I completely forgot. I have a 9th level Elf Investigator who is also a front liner. He also has Toughness. He has died once.


My view on this is that while that extra CON is nice, it's more for the extra +Fort save then the HP.

Standard front line usually has a 14 CON. At 10th level that's just 12 HP more then the same front line person with a 12 CON.

That extra 12 Health usually has little effect when you're being attack 3 to 4 times with around a +9 static damage modifier.

Better defenses will usually make up the differences and most races that do have that -2 CON penalty, usually have a +2 DEX bonus. That extra AC from that DEX can usually play more of a roll in keeping you alive then the extra health.
This does require you to keep your defenses up and does make it hard for some classes, like barbarians.

My opinion, sorry for rambling, long day.


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My level 10 Dwarf Transmuter Wizard only has a 23 Con and 122 HP....kinda squishy

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

"Why is the command word to activate the scroll "Fruit of the loom?"

"... thats his underwear. Read the next thing up.

"Potion of cure moderate woun..

"Your other up.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

My -11 is a protege suli slayer with 12 con. Everytime I play him I wish he had more hp* but each time I get thinking about his mechanical choices I figure more con would have meant sacrificing something else. And that wouldn't do.

*See also: tier 8-9 incorporeal bosses, earth elementals, gnoll berserkers, duergar oracles, etc

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

Zach W. wrote:
Strategy(Dragon): Standard Action 30ft radius, all allies may choose one of the following immediately(1. +2 Dodge AC for 1 round, 2. +2 Moral bonus to attacks for 1 round, 3. Spend an Immediate Action to move up to your base speed once).

The cavalier chooses which ability to grant to each ally, the ally does not get to choose which ability it gains.

Zach W. wrote:
Order of the Dragon Challenge: +4 to attack rolls made against the challenged target for allies.

As an 8th level cavalier, this should only be +3. It is a +1 bonus base, +1 additional for every 4 cavalier levels.

Additionally, the bonus only applies to melee attack rolls, not all attack rolls, and only while the target of the challenge is threatened by the cavalier.

Liberty's Edge

Michael Eshleman wrote:
Zach W. wrote:
Strategy(Dragon): Standard Action 30ft radius, all allies may choose one of the following immediately(1. +2 Dodge AC for 1 round, 2. +2 Moral bonus to attacks for 1 round, 3. Spend an Immediate Action to move up to your base speed once).

The cavalier chooses which ability to grant to each ally, the ally does not get to choose which ability it gains.

Zach W. wrote:
Order of the Dragon Challenge: +4 to attack rolls made against the challenged target for allies.

As an 8th level cavalier, this should only be +3. It is a +1 bonus base, +1 additional for every 4 cavalier levels.

Additionally, the bonus only applies to melee attack rolls, not all attack rolls, and only while the target of the challenge is threatened by the cavalier.

Yes the ally doesn't choose....but really? Like I am going to demand each player take what I tell them too as opposed to letting them choose? I love being in charge of the table and all, but that is a bit excessive.

The challenge thing, true. I have the numbers on my character sheet not in my head.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Removed incorrect information.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

UndeadMitch wrote:
The allies all get the same thing, it's not "Player A gets AC, B gets attack bonus, C gets immediate action move." You choose one benefit, they choose whether or not to opt-in.

Order of the Dragon

Order of the Dragon wrote:
Strategy (Ex): At 8th level, the cavalier can spend a standard action to grant one of a number of bonuses to all allies within 30 feet (including himself). The allies must be able to see or hear the cavalier to receive this bonus. The cavalier can grant a +2 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round, a +2 morale bonus on all attack rolls for 1 round, or the ability to move up to their speed as an immediate action once. The cavalier can grant a different bonus to each ally within range, but allies can only benefit from this ability once per combat.

Silver Crusade 5/5

My bad, shows how often I play a cavalier, thanks for correcting me.


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Kael, my Elven Bard who made Venture-Captain, had a 10 Constitution. Hit points were rarely a problem, mostly because foolish enemies tend to focus on "Armored Box", "Gatling Arrow Turret", or "Area Effect Damage Dispenser" and not "Skinny guy in the back providing huge bonuses, rerolls, extra actions, and immunities to his team while doing his best to help everyone succeed at their Faction Missions."

Sometimes he even felt sorry for them. :)

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