Need Clarification on Racial Spells.


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4/5

Need some clarification of spells pulled from Pathfinder Player Companion: *Race* of Golarion & the ARG -

ARG PFS Rules: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).

Can you purchase scrolls of these spells and then UMD them?

Confusion comes up with this sentence -
Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it.

Example: A Human Character goes to the Temple of Trudd (Dwarven Deity) and buys a scrolls of Mighty Strength (Cleric/Paladin Spell).

If doing something like this is legal, what's stopping Arcane Casters from purchasing a Racial Spell as a scroll and then writing that spell into his spell book?

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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Just as one could not purchase a scroll of a spell banned in the campaign, one can not purchase a scroll of a spell to which he does not have access (e.g. The Advanced Race Guide's spells restricted to a particular race). Effectively, the PC cannot access that spell, including for spell scribing purposes.


Would it be possible to get the spell if you actually meet one of the race that has it? Such as if you sit down at a table to play your Human Wizard, and someone else is playing a Wayang wizard, and you decide to swap spells. Would the wizard be able to learn a Wayang only spell from the Wayang if the Wayang had it to teach? Or would this fall under the same blanket PC can not access the spell?


'Sani wrote:
Would it be possible to get the spell if you actually meet one of the race that has it? Such as if you sit down at a table to play your Human Wizard, and someone else is playing a Wayang wizard, and you decide to swap spells. Would the wizard be able to learn a Wayang only spell from the Wayang if the Wayang had it to teach? Or would this fall under the same blanket PC can not access the spell?

Same question. If a halfling wizard scribes a halfling racial spell onto a scroll then hands it to a human wizard can that human wizard scribe it in his/her spellbook?


Well, in PFS no one gets Scribe Scroll, so that's kind a moot point.

5/5 *****

You are still limited by additional resources.

Ignore the PC trading. If you find an NPC spellbook which has an otherwise illegal spell in it would you think you could scribe and then use it? No, additional resources doesn't let you. PC trading is no different.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Based on John's answer above, IMO the answer is no. Just like if you find a spellbook which contains a spell that is not legal for the campaign you cannot scribe it.

Scenario:
There is at least one scenario with an NPC wizard whose spellbook contains spells that are banned in the campaign.

EDIT: Ninja'd!


'Sani wrote:
Well, in PFS no one gets Scribe Scroll, so that's kind a moot point.

Didnt realize this was a PFS discussion. My bad. I'm out.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

Even were the human to scribe the wayang spell, it would be bragging rights and nothing more; this process would still not open up the spell for use by the PC. With the exception of one boon I can think of, there's not a way for a PC to learn another race's race-specific spells from the ARG.


Random thought, though perhaps not PFS: how would the adopted trait affect this if at all?

Shadow Lodge

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Random thought, though perhaps not PFS: how would the adopted trait affect this if at all?

Not at all.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

John Compton wrote:
Even were the human to scribe the wayang spell, it would be bragging rights and nothing more; this process would still not open up the spell for use by the PC. With the exception of one boon I can think of, there's not a way for a PC to learn another race's race-specific spells from the ARG.

It's too bad that boon limits it to just chapter 1 of the book. Really wanted to open up a sylph spell.

Still, it let me get Blend opened up, so I'm happy with that.

5/5 *** Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

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James Anderson wrote:
John Compton wrote:
Even were the human to scribe the wayang spell, it would be bragging rights and nothing more; this process would still not open up the spell for use by the PC. With the exception of one boon I can think of, there's not a way for a PC to learn another race's race-specific spells from the ARG.

It's too bad that boon limits it to just chapter 1 of the book. Really wanted to open up a sylph spell.

Still, it let me get Blend opened up, so I'm happy with that.

Is it windy escape? I bet it's windy escape.

I've almost completed my 10 punch card for telling players no, they can't cast windy escape. Yes, I'll literally told 9 different players no, they can't cast that spell.

Obviously this doesn't qualify as a stamp, but I only need one more!

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Huh. I thought that if you met wizards of the right race, you could trade spells so long as it got noted on your chronicle sheet which PC you traded with! Which would make sylphs one of the most popular trading partners.

But trading is not even possible? Are we not allowing trading and teaching of race spells cross races because of possible abuse issues?

Hmm

4/5

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Pirate Rob wrote:


Is it windy escape? I bet it's windy escape.

I've almost completed my 10 punch card for telling players no, they can't cast windy escape. Yes, I'll literally told 9 different players no, they can't cast that spell.

Mudball is the one I've got the most stamps for =)

5/5 *****

Hmm wrote:

Huh. I thought that if you met wizards of the right race, you could trade spells so long as it got noted on your chronicle sheet which PC you traded with! Which would make sylphs one of the most popular trading partners.

But trading is not even possible? Are we not allowing trading and teaching of race spells cross races because of possible abuse issues?

Hmm

You could trade but you cannot use the option as you have no legal source to make use of it.

This is no different than finding an illegal option used by an NPC in an adventure.

5/5 *****

EvilMinion wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:


Is it windy escape? I bet it's windy escape.

I've almost completed my 10 punch card for telling players no, they can't cast windy escape. Yes, I'll literally told 9 different players no, they can't cast that spell.

Mudball is the one I've got the most stamps for =)

Ward of the Season here.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

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Pirate Rob wrote:

Is it windy escape? I bet it's windy escape.

I've almost completed my 10 punch card for telling players no, they can't cast windy escape. Yes, I'll literally told 9 different players no, they can't cast that spell.

Maybe this can become a new GM Boon! After completing it, the GM can now cast Windy Escape!

(Note, I said GM, not a character of the GM)

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Hmm wrote:

Huh. I thought that if you met wizards of the right race, you could trade spells so long as it got noted on your chronicle sheet which PC you traded with! Which would make sylphs one of the most popular trading partners.

But trading is not even possible? Are we not allowing trading and teaching of race spells cross races because of possible abuse issues?

Hmm

Sanctioning the Advanced Race Guide happened a little before I started here, but I can summarize the thought process on this decision.

Race-specific spells are special elements for that species, much like alternate racial traits. They are a way of helping distinguish that PC race as something special, so they are restricted to members of that race. Although it is theoretically possible to scribe such a spell from another spell book, that would effectively defeat the exclusivity of race-specific spells. After all, strategically playing alongside a few wizards of the right race would allow one to bypass the restriction entirely.

As andreww notes above, your human wizard could scribe the windy escape if he wants to, but you don't have a legal source for the spell; it is still restricted to sylph PCs according to the Additional Resources page.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Gary Bush wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:

Is it windy escape? I bet it's windy escape.

I've almost completed my 10 punch card for telling players no, they can't cast windy escape. Yes, I'll literally told 9 different players no, they can't cast that spell.

Maybe this can become a new GM Boon! After completing it, the GM can now cast Windy Escape!

(Note, I said GM, not a character of the GM)

A burrito might be able to accomplish the same, with less printing involved ^^

4/5

How about a Deity specific spell?

Can you buy a scroll of that and use a scroll with a Deity spell on it?

Those spells are open access to a worshiper of that Deity and, supposedly those deities/temples can make scrolls of those spells and sell them.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Matt2VK wrote:

How about a Deity specific spell?

Can you buy a scroll of that and use a scroll with a Deity spell on it?

Those spells are open access to a worshiper of that Deity and, supposedly those deities/temples can make scrolls of those spells and sell them.

Going off of the same logic as above I don't see how the answer could be anything but no.

Going off of in game logic, I doubt the deity would actually let the spell go off without his divine blessing.

4/5

I was using the same logic too. Just had some munchkin's wanting to UMD a scroll of a Deity Spell and in a quick search, couldn't find anything saying it was illegal.

Ended up by using RAW as he had the books with the spell and you can buy divine scrolls as a legal item.

Grand Lodge 3/5

Quote:
Going off of the same logic as above I don't see how the answer could be anything but no.

The Additional resources doesn't say anything about whether deity specific spells are restricted, like the explicit line for the ARG. At least the ones I'm thinking about from Dwarves of Golarion. I assume those would just be limited by the rules in the book (can only be prepared by someone worshipping Torag and doing the extra prayers.) I'm not actually clear what this means for buying a scroll or w/e.

A wand of Watchful Eye would be nice, though.

I'm a little unclear now on the interactions between Chronicle Sheets and Additional Resources. If I find a spellbook on a Chronicle sheet with Windy Escape, can't I cast it? I thought that was one of the cool things about Core, was that Chronicle sheets added items otherwise banned by Additional Resources?

4/5

Are spellbooks ever listed on chronicle sheets?
Don't recall ever seeing one.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

I can recall at least one formula book and one spellbook from scenarios in this season alone.

Grand Lodge 3/5

I just got one Monday night, I think they might be adding more now that Arcane Anthology has special Spellbook effects.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Both of those are damn cool. There's also one book in a sanctioned chronicle.

Grand Lodge 2/5

Matt2VK wrote:

I was using the same logic too. Just had some munchkin's wanting to UMD a scroll of a Deity Spell and in a quick search, couldn't find anything saying it was illegal.

Ended up by using RAW as he had the books with the spell and you can buy divine scrolls as a legal item.

Most deity spells aren't limited. For example, all the spells in Inner Sea Gods are available to anyone.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

Looking over the spellbooks listed on Chronicle sheets (not spellbooks carried by NPCs in adventures), I'm not seeing any unexpected access to race-specific spells. Were we to include such a tome with a normally restricted/banned spell, I imagine we'd make a point to call it out as a special exception.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

Pirate Rob wrote:
James Anderson wrote:
John Compton wrote:
Even were the human to scribe the wayang spell, it would be bragging rights and nothing more; this process would still not open up the spell for use by the PC. With the exception of one boon I can think of, there's not a way for a PC to learn another race's race-specific spells from the ARG.

It's too bad that boon limits it to just chapter 1 of the book. Really wanted to open up a sylph spell.

Still, it let me get Blend opened up, so I'm happy with that.

Is it windy escape? I bet it's windy escape.

I've almost completed my 10 punch card for telling players no, they can't cast windy escape. Yes, I'll literally told 9 different players no, they can't cast that spell.

Obviously this doesn't qualify as a stamp, but I only need one more!

Of course it is! My sylph druid has a great time with it!

Grand Lodge 3/5

John, any chance of some guidance on Deity specific spells like Watchful Eye in magic items?

Scarab Sages 4/5

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
John, any chance of some guidance on Deity specific spells like Watchful Eye in magic items?

I have the same question. My Cleric of Torag likes to attune to Watchful Eye, but I would very much also like to carry/use a scroll of Invigorating Repose. It's a legal spell I have access to, but it's unclear to me if I need to be attuned to Invigorating Repose to use the scrolll without UMD.

2/5

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John Compton wrote:
Even were the human to scribe the wayang spell, it would be bragging rights and nothing more; [...]

And nothing less!!!

Reading this has made me want to start scribbing racial spells in my wizard spellbook.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

What about ethnic-specific spells? Is Burning Arc for example available to anyone except Keleshite humans?

Shadow Lodge

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
What about ethnic-specific spells? Is Burning Arc for example available to anyone except Keleshite humans?

Seeing as nothing in Humans of Golarion or the Additional Resources document places any restrictions on casting them (except for the restrictions summon totem creature places on itself), there are no racial or ethnic restricts on those spells.

3/5 *** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

John Compton wrote:
Hmm wrote:

Huh. I thought that if you met wizards of the right race, you could trade spells so long as it got noted on your chronicle sheet which PC you traded with! Which would make sylphs one of the most popular trading partners.

But trading is not even possible? Are we not allowing trading and teaching of race spells cross races because of possible abuse issues?

Hmm

Sanctioning the Advanced Race Guide happened a little before I started here, but I can summarize the thought process on this decision.

Race-specific spells are special elements for that species, much like alternate racial traits. They are a way of helping distinguish that PC race as something special, so they are restricted to members of that race. Although it is theoretically possible to scribe such a spell from another spell book, that would effectively defeat the exclusivity of race-specific spells. After all, strategically playing alongside a few wizards of the right race would allow one to bypass the restriction entirely.

As andreww notes above, your human wizard could scribe the windy escape if he wants to, but you don't have a legal source for the spell; it is still restricted to sylph PCs according to the Additional Resources page.

Just to make sure I don't completely make an illegal character but this is only in reference to the ARG right? Stuff like Blood of Shadows where the item in question is presented as a racial ability but is actively called out as available for everyone is different?

Liberty's Edge 1/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Bondi Junction

Ok Here is a variation to this issue.

Could a caster using Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation (of the appropriate level)be able to duplicate a racial spell?

Specifically - A Human Shadowcaster uses Lesser Shadow Conjuration to cast a quasi-real Gloomblind Bolt (normally a Fetchling only spell)

How legal would this be?

(And as an aside does anyone know if there is a boon to allow anyone play a fetchling?)

Scarab Sages 5/5

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
Quote:
Going off of the same logic as above I don't see how the answer could be anything but no.

The Additional resources doesn't say anything about whether deity specific spells are restricted, like the explicit line for the ARG. At least the ones I'm thinking about from Dwarves of Golarion. I assume those would just be limited by the rules in the book (can only be prepared by someone worshipping Torag and doing the extra prayers.) I'm not actually clear what this means for buying a scroll or w/e.

A wand of Watchful Eye would be nice, though.

I'm a little unclear now on the interactions between Chronicle Sheets and Additional Resources. If I find a spellbook on a Chronicle sheet with Windy Escape, can't I cast it? I thought that was one of the cool things about Core, was that Chronicle sheets added items otherwise banned by Additional Resources?

(IMHO) we might have some problem casting the spell from a wand/scroll. If the PC hasn't prayed to the right god/goddess today, is it even on their spell list? if not... it would be like a cleric using Glibness from a scroll. Can't do it.

The Exchange 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

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Nikolaus Athas wrote:
Could a caster using Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation (of the appropriate level)be able to duplicate a racial spell?

I struggle to understand why this is a difficult question.

It might be easier to think of the spells of a different race as if they didn't exist in the game even for those races.

So you can't copy them from a race owning a spell book, because they don't exist for you.

You can't shadow conjuration them because they don't exist for you.

Scarab Sages

Nikolaus Athas wrote:

Ok Here is a variation to this issue.

Could a caster using Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation (of the appropriate level)be able to duplicate a racial spell?

Specifically - A Human Shadowcaster uses Lesser Shadow Conjuration to cast a quasi-real Gloomblind Bolt (normally a Fetchling only spell)

How legal would this be?

(And as an aside does anyone know if there is a boon to allow anyone play a fetchling?)

Sounds entirely reasonable from my stance, provided you have the book it comes in and the spell is a PFS legal spell. The caster isn't casting Gloomblind Bolt, they are casting Shadow Conjuration and Gloomblind Bolt meets all of the requirements for that spell (Unless John has disagreements...?).

I am curious how racial/deity spells relate to PFS wands (and other magic items). I mean, there are rules for using magic items designed for other classes/races.

The Exchange 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

Murdock Mudeater wrote:


Sounds entirely reasonable from my stance, provided you have the book it comes in and the spell is a PFS legal spell. The caster isn't casting Gloomblind Bolt, they are casting Shadow Conjuration and Gloomblind Bolt meets all of the requirements for that spell (Unless John has disagreements...?).

Pretty sure this isn't how it should work.

Liberty's Edge 1/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Bondi Junction

This is why some clarification in regards to these kind of spells (Shadow line) is needed.
Especially as in this case thematically it makes perfect sense that a archetype caster who manipulates shadow energies, can duplicate a spell that a shadow race uses, which is powered by shadow energies.

Seriously IMBO Gloombolt *should* be on the Shadowcaster list. Its a spell developed by a race of beings who have the greatest interaction and presence in the PFS world at the very same place that the Archtype originates from. If nothing else my Shadowcaster would have seen and know of the existence of such a spell (and indeed most shadow/fetchling spells).
Using a 4th level slot to duplicate a 3rd level spell should be a fair compromise in my (again biased) opinion given that I can't cast the specific spell - I can't actually cast it because I'm not a Fetchling and don't have enough shadow in me(and unless I have access to a time machine and travel across the planet IRL I can never have a PFS legal Fetchling) but I as a Shadowcaster should be able to duplicate it and it's effects.

Even looking at Shadow Conjuration's description it clearly states:
"Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower." [emphasis mine]
No mention is made of any restriction due to race or origin. I'm not casting a prohibited spell, I'm mimicking its effects ...

Now to be honest I haven't thought through all the implications here. This MAY open up some abusive can of worms which may have been considered by minds far superior to mine.
Which brings me back to my hope that some clarification comes out - even if it is like James states above a big no.

The Exchange 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

Nikolaus Athas wrote:
my hope that some clarification comes out - even if it is like James states above a big no.

I'm especially curious on this. So we have language that directly states it isn't allowed and that doesn't sway your opinion that it shouldn't be allowed when using a method to obtain it?

Why do you think this should be permitted when sharing the spell with a human when the human plays with a fetching wouldn't be allowed?

Liberty's Edge 1/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—NSW—Bondi Junction

The point of difference here is as follows:
Casting Shadow Conjuration is not casting the spell. It is casting a spell that is able to mimic the effects of the spell Gloombolt. As far as I can tell this is wholly within the limitations of both spells and the ruling of the PFS additional resources but I would like to know that this is as intended.
There is no language currently that states that restricted racial spells cannot be mimicked by spells that produce quasi-real effects, like the Shadow-X line.

Let me be clear here - I am not saying that I can cast Gloombolt, (even though I feel that I should). What I am saying is that the Shadow Conjuration spell should allow me to duplicate it regardless of the fact that it is racial. The PFS designers may come along and say no, and I would respect that, but currently there is nothing that says that I cannot, which is what I wish to have clarified.

I can provide a similar case which doesn't require racial spells - the Thassalonian 'Pride' Wizard Archtype who casts Illusion spells but cannot cast any Conjuration or Transmutation spells at all, not just double cost but prohibited.
She does have access to Shadow Conjuration - an illusion spell - which allows her to cast mimicked lower level Conjuration spells, and Shadow Transmutation - which allows her to cast lower level mimicked Transmutaion spells.
Based on your argument these 2 spells (and their associated greater versions and other variants) should not be allowed because they would mimic a school of spell that is prohibited even though the seplls themselves are actually Shadow and not Conjuration etc.

See why I am interested in this?

(edited for clarity *I hope*)
when I say Gloombolt I mean Gloomblind bolt my bad.

Liberty's Edge

Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle - all allow you to duplicate the effects of other spells, even spells you cannot cast. A wizard can use Limited Wish to duplicate the effects of a 4th level psychic spell... from his prohibited school. So why would a Limited Wish be somehow barred from duplicating a racial spell? If it isn't... then how is that different from the various shadow spell 'partially real' duplication effects?

5/5 *****

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CBDunkerson wrote:
Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle - all allow you to duplicate the effects of other spells, even spells you cannot cast. A wizard can use Limited Wish to duplicate the effects of a 4th level psychic spell... from his prohibited school. So why would a Limited Wish be somehow barred from duplicating a racial spell? If it isn't... then how is that different from the various shadow spell 'partially real' duplication effects?

I wouldn't allow a limited wish to duplicate the effects of a racial spell anymore than I would allow shadow conjuration, evocation or enchantment. Those spells simply don't exist as far as you character is concerned. They are only available to members of that particular race if they are from ARG or other sources with similar limiting text.


Nikolaus Athas wrote:

Ok Here is a variation to this issue.

Could a caster using Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation (of the appropriate level)be able to duplicate a racial spell?

Specifically - A Human Shadowcaster uses Lesser Shadow Conjuration to cast a quasi-real Gloomblind Bolt (normally a Fetchling only spell)

How legal would this be?

(And as an aside does anyone know if there is a boon to allow anyone play a fetchling?)

One was auctioned off as a charity boon, if I recall correctly.


Hmm wrote:

Huh. I thought that if you met wizards of the right race, you could trade spells so long as it got noted on your chronicle sheet which PC you traded with! Which would make sylphs one of the most popular trading partners.

But trading is not even possible? Are we not allowing trading and teaching of race spells cross races because of possible abuse issues?

Hmm

The PFS barrier on racial spells to casters not of that race is absolute. The only way you could get one is by the aforementioned spellbook appearing in a Chronicle.

Liberty's Edge

andreww wrote:
I wouldn't allow a limited wish to duplicate the effects of a racial spell anymore than I would allow shadow conjuration, evocation or enchantment. Those spells simply don't exist as far as you character is concerned. They are only available to members of that particular race if they are from ARG or other sources with similar limiting text.

Limited Wish: "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects"

I don't see how you can logically prevent a spell which can do ANYTHING, provided it is within a certain power level, from recreating the effects of a specific spell which falls into that power level range.

Even though the racial spell 'does not exist' for them... it doesn't matter because wish magic allows you to CREATE effects that do not exist.

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