Semantics Question: How do your PCs know what potions are what?

[Darksol the Painbringer]

This was something that occurred to me in a thread about the Potion Glutton feat that may or may not pose an interesting question.

Let's say we have some PCs who can Brew Potion, and some PCs who can't. The PCs who can make the potions brew them for the PCs who can't, so as to promote synergy and stuff for their party. Happy days!

Now, Combat Time comes, and the PCs decide to drink a potion or two before engaging. The ones who made the potions will obviously know their effects (since they made them), and can tell the difference with some skill checks.

The ones who didn't...well...how could they know?

[Elegant Egotist]

Can't you spellcraft that out? I thought there was a check for something like that, or is that a 3.5 thing?

[Sundakan]

Perception works too.

[Orfamay Quest]

If it's a friendly crafter, read the labels on the bottles.

If it's not a friendly caster, you can taste it for a Perception check.

[the David]

You can identify a potion by taste, the perception DC is 15+caster level. Ofcourse, by then it may already be too late.

"Why does this healing potion taste like bitter almonds?"

[Neriathale]

"Ok guys - big blue bottles are healing, small green bottles make you stronger and small red ones make you better at dodging. In an emergency the one with the string round the neck will make you vanish. Keep this round metal flask in you top left pocket - it allows you to see in the dark.
Oh and whatever you do, don't drink the sort of gloopy green ones with wax seals in the left pocket of my haversack...."

I have had this conversation in LRP many times!

[thejeff]

Just like any other magic item?
You either made it and know what it does. Bought it and were told what it does when you did. Found it and identified it. Or were told by someone else in the party who did one of the three.

From there, you just have to remember which one does what. It's assumed you can do that. Nothing says that potions are all identical. Or that you have to keep them in identical bottles.

Any more than the fighter can't tell the difference between the +1 sword he used to use and the +2 one he just found and the wizard identified for him.

For the original poster's theory, there's no provision for the crafter to make skill checks in combat to figure out which item is which. If they've identified the potion, they know what it does. Otherwise, I guess they could take a move action to taste it and make a Perception check or cast Detect Magic and study it for 3 rounds.

Neither is something you want to do in a fight.

[lemeres]

If you have your casters making them, then it is simple and you just assume everything has specific bottles, colors, and labels that you are well acquainted with.

If you are mixing in potions from other sources, then things get trickier. If you are buying potions, then maybe the mage/alchemist guild has a system similar to above, so little problem.

Now found potions (which might have come from mad men in the woods and monstrous cults underground)... yeah that might lack the neat little systems used above (or at least it might have its on system that conflicts with your stuff- ie- the bottle of cure might might be the same as the bottle of inflict, since you got it from a ghoul that used it like a cure pot.) I can see small, occasional checks as 'pleasant surprises' from the GM where failure means you grabbed the wrong potion. This could of course be prevented by consciously putting such alien potions into specific pouches, and stating exactly when you are going for that pouch (this approach would be for GMs that force you to say that you are doing a perception check of a room rather than having it occur automatically)

[Oxylepy]

Color, smell, vial styling, or labeling of some kind (the stopper can even be colored). After that is organization. I have had characters who have lots of pockets/vial slots and will specifically keep certain things in particular locations, so as to not mix things up and maintain a handle on the number of what they need that they have.

[thejeff]

However you do it, it's pure fluff. There are no mechanics for it.
If you want to play things out to that level of detail, have fun with it.
Any skill checks or making you grab the wrong potion are strictly house rules.

Or just use a handy Haversack, which ensures the one you want is on top. :)

[ngc7293]

have a spread sheet. It is literally a SPREAD SHEET. And each bottle is tied with thread at certain places in a grid pattern. Then you roll the sucker up.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

The same way you know in real life - labels.

[Emmit Svenson]

Drop all your potions in a Handy Haversack. Not only will you not provoke when you fetch them out, you won't ever have to worry about grabbing the wrong one.

[Jiggy]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

The ones who made the potions ... can tell the difference with some skill checks.

...the hell?

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Sean K Reynolds made a thing - Link

[Quori]

I believe the understanding is that any intelligent creature would keep tabs on their potions, whether that is a list on their person, or an actual labelling system on the potion itself.

Having labels would be the norm, with those choosing not to have identifiers on their potions whatsoever being the exception. And thus, whether you search the person, or by the nature of their labelling it is on the potion itself. You could roleplay language differentials and such, but ultimately the GM should just decide early the general playout for potions.

Will he make it a mini-game of frustration and guessing that makes little real-world sense, or do away with all labelling except for rare cases (the labels are so old they have faded from readability for example).

I find the most important thing is simply an understanding of the consistency, as it never comes up until it is actually important (like rations) and then it becomes a very humorous discussion.

[Squiggit]

I usually just have most potions labeled and/or color coded.

i.e. a healing potion might be red and emblazoned with Sarenrae's ankh, or some facsimile of it. Or some other more agnostic design. Or whatever.

[Cavall]

Something ad simple as the wax seal having a mark in it would work well enough.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Emmit Svenson wrote:

Drop all your potions in a Handy Haversack. Not only will you not provoke when you fetch them out, you won't ever have to worry about grabbing the wrong one.

That only works if you already know what the potion is, and you ask for it by name. As evidenced here:

Handy Haversack wrote:

When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top.

It's like someone approaching you and saying "Hey, you know that thing that does the thing? Yeah, I need that!" and you saying "What? What are you talking about?"

Same concept here, except that someone is the PC, and the "you" is the Haversack. If you don't know what item you need, the Haversack doesn't particularly help you.

[thejeff]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Emmit Svenson wrote:

Drop all your potions in a Handy Haversack. Not only will you not provoke when you fetch them out, you won't ever have to worry about grabbing the wrong one.

That only works if you already know what the potion is, and you ask for it by name. As evidenced here:

Handy Haversack wrote:

When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top.

It's like someone approaching you and saying "Hey, you know that thing that does the thing? Yeah, I need that!" and you saying "What? What are you talking about?"

Same concept here, except that someone is the PC, and the "you" is the Haversack. If you don't know what item you need, the Haversack doesn't particularly help you.

True, but if you know you've got a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, you can reach in and pull it out.

It doesn't identify them for you, if you don't already know what they are, but it keeps you from mixing them up on the fly.

It's not clear what your actual concern is. Referencing your original post, the person who brewed them knows what potions he brewed - no skill roll needed. He would normally tell the people he gave them to what they were. If so, they know - no roll needed.
If not, they would have to use either Detect Magic and Spellcraft or a Perception check and a taste to identify. After identifying a potion, there would be no need to roll to id that particular potion again.

[Arcane Addict]

I suspect the concern isn't game-mechanical in nature. I think he just wants to know how adventurers deal with it when they carry so many different potions. So... Its a verisimiltude thing, according to my assumption that is.
It can be fun to think of these things, but I consider this too menial to actually influence the game. I wouldn't require a check or something, is what I'm saying. It wastes time and feels too punitive, if you ask me.
Of course, you can think of a scenario where such a situation is called for, if so desired, but it really needs to serve a purpose beyond an opportunity to screw over your players. If you've seen Disney's 'The Emperor's New Groove' you'll understand what I mean. It has quite a few 'identifying potions/poisons'-type scenes.Of course... In that movie it seems to always screw over somebody so... Your mileage may vary!

[Orfamay Quest]

Arcane Addict wrote:

Of course, you can think of a scenario where such a situation is called for, if so desired, but it really needs to serve a purpose beyond an opportunity to screw over your players. If you've seen Disney's 'The Emperor's New Groove' you'll understand what I mean. It has quite a few 'identifying potions/poisons'-type scenes. Of course... In that movie it seems to always screw over somebody so... Your mileage may vary!

Something to bear in mind about that movie -- it's a comedy, and Yzma is a comedy villain, i.e., a bumbling idiot. There's no particular reason for her to keep all of her potions in identical vials, and even she labels the shelves they're on to keep them straight; the best you can say in her defense is that she didn't expect her entire potion stash to be mixed up by a Mongolian horde of Keystone Kops running through her private and secret lab.

If I'm going into combat and expecting to be grabbing potions out of a belt pouch, damn straight I'm going to have a clear, easy to spot, way to tell them apart.

I find that few PF players characterize (or want to characterize) their alter egos as "bumbling idiots," and there's no particular reason to force them to do so. Player characters are allowed to be competent, and in general, should be, because incompetent people die in dangerous situations unless they're protected by plot armor, but that same plot armor means that the players have even less influence on the game than they normally would.

[Jiggy]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Emmit Svenson wrote:

Drop all your potions in a Handy Haversack. Not only will you not provoke when you fetch them out, you won't ever have to worry about grabbing the wrong one.

That only works if you already know what the potion is, and you ask for it by name. As evidenced here:

Handy Haversack wrote:

When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top.

If you didn't know what the potion was, then why the hell were you trying to whip it out and drink it?

[Envall]

Maybe the spells themselves shape into unique patterns and shapes inside the bottle so you get general idea what it does.

Courtesy of Dota 2

[Vlaeros]

Jiggy wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Emmit Svenson wrote:

Drop all your potions in a Handy Haversack. Not only will you not provoke when you fetch them out, you won't ever have to worry about grabbing the wrong one.

That only works if you already know what the potion is, and you ask for it by name. As evidenced here:

Handy Haversack wrote:

When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top.

If you didn't know what the potion was, then why the hell were you trying to whip it out and drink it?

Hoping for that sweet, sweet potion miscibility table to roll up something amazing, obvs...

EDIT: I do hope that it is clear that the above is simply a mild joke at no one's expense in particular. Just mentioning for clarity, as tone is often lacking in communication, and especially over text-based formats.

[Orfamay Quest]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Emmit Svenson wrote:

Drop all your potions in a Handy Haversack. Not only will you not provoke when you fetch them out, you won't ever have to worry about grabbing the wrong one.

That only works if you already know what the potion is, and you ask for it by name. As evidenced here:

Handy Haversack wrote:

When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top.

I'm not sure that this line of reasoning is correct.

If I keep arrows in my haversack, do I have to identify a specific arrow when I want to get one out? If I have three standard coils of rope, do I have to name them ("I need Eric-the-rope") or can I just get "a coil of rope"?

[thejeff]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Emmit Svenson wrote:

Drop all your potions in a Handy Haversack. Not only will you not provoke when you fetch them out, you won't ever have to worry about grabbing the wrong one.

That only works if you already know what the potion is, and you ask for it by name. As evidenced here:

Handy Haversack wrote:

When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top.

I'm not sure that this line of reasoning is correct.

If I keep arrows in my haversack, do I have to identify a specific arrow when I want to get one out? If I have three standard coils of rope, do I have to name them ("I need Eric-the-rope") or can I just get "a coil of rope"?

"The 117th gold coin I put in last Tuesday from my share of the fire giant's loot. Now the 118th. "

Yeah, seems a little silly.

I'd let "one of those coils of rope" work. Or "one of the cure light wounds potions" (previously identified before being put in the sack). Or "That potion I hadn't id'd in the little blue bottle."

[Orfamay Quest]

thejeff wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Emmit Svenson wrote:

Drop all your potions in a Handy Haversack. Not only will you not provoke when you fetch them out, you won't ever have to worry about grabbing the wrong one.

That only works if you already know what the potion is, and you ask for it by name. As evidenced here:

Handy Haversack wrote:

When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top.

I'm not sure that this line of reasoning is correct.

If I keep arrows in my haversack, do I have to identify a specific arrow when I want to get one out? If I have three standard coils of rope, do I have to name them ("I need Eric-the-rope") or can I just get "a coil of rope"?

"The 117th gold coin I put in last Tuesday from my share of the fire giant's loot. Now the 118th. "

Yeah, seems a little silly.

I'd let "one of those coils of rope" work. Or "one of the cure light wounds potions" (previously identified before being put in the sack). Or "That potion I hadn't id'd in the little blue bottle."

Yeah, that was where I was going. "The potion in the little blue bottle" is pretty specific, and demonstrably more specific than "one of my three coils of rope."

Granted, I still don't know why the hell I'm pulling an unidentified potion out of my haversack under time pressure. ("Oh my God, Timmy's gone overboard! Maybe the little blue bottle holds a potion of water breathing! Or blur! Or owl's wisdom, which would at least keep me from drawing another potion out next round!")

[thejeff]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Granted, I still don't know why the hell I'm pulling an unidentified potion out of my haversack under time pressure. ("Oh my God, Timmy's gone overboard! Maybe the little blue bottle holds a potion of water breathing! Or blur! Or owl's wisdom, which would at least keep me from drawing another potion out next round!")

Which takes me back to the original question, which I'm still not sure I understand but seemed to be "How do I keep track of the potions I have identified?"

[DungeonmasterCal]

During downtime either during or after the game someone casts Identify on them. Not all the potion bottles look alike, so when properly identified we just "know" which one is which for later use.

[Icehawk]

I like my potions like I like my dragons. Color coded for my convenience.

[Grammar Nazi]

I was promised a semantics question. I'm still waiting.

[Arcane Addict]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Arcane Addict wrote:

Of course, you can think of a scenario where such a situation is called for, if so desired, but it really needs to serve a purpose beyond an opportunity to screw over your players. If you've seen Disney's 'The Emperor's New Groove' you'll understand what I mean. It has quite a few 'identifying potions/poisons'-type scenes. Of course... In that movie it seems to always screw over somebody so... Your mileage may vary!

Something to bear in mind about that movie -- it's a comedy, and Yzma is a comedy villain, i.e., a bumbling idiot. There's no particular reason for her to keep all of her potions in identical vials, and even she labels the shelves they're on to keep them straight; the best you can say in her defense is that she didn't expect her entire potion stash to be mixed up by a Mongolian horde of Keystone Kops running through her private and secret lab.

If I'm going into combat and expecting to be grabbing potions out of a belt pouch, damn straight I'm going to have a clear, easy to spot, way to tell them apart.

I find that few PF players characterize (or want to characterize) their alter egos as "bumbling idiots," and there's no particular reason to force them to do so. Player characters are allowed to be competent, and in general, should be, because incompetent people die in dangerous situations unless they're protected by plot armor, but that same plot armor means that the players have even less influence on the game than they normally would.

Don't fret! I agree with you! I just needed an example of a story that couldn't have worked without such a mix-up and Emperor's New Groove was the first thing that came to mind. Admittedly not the best example for how to run a (standard) Pathfinder game, I hope it was clear from the context I didn't advocate that (Though I do love that movie... Could be a very fun one-off!).

Players should simply be able to directly use the pre-identified potions they have on their person without jumping through hoops. An overturned alchemyshop's merchandise is another matter entirely.