Okay so really dumb question here.... was looking at some interesting builds and I wanted to know if it would be possible to have a Lawful cheater? I was thinking of making a Card-Shark Darts player and take a level in Monk for the Fury of Throw Weapons for extra attacks.
Problem is, Card Sharking and Cheating are considered unlawful and would be frowned upon with the Monk.... Is there any way to make a Cheating Monk? Some code that allows cheating in some way shape or form with card games, and use said cards to rain hell on the enemy?
Yup, probably going to be evil though.
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You could take the best possible interpretation of the rules for your benefit, or you could be a cheater in a certain area, but follow the rules about everything else.
You don't have to be lawful in every aspect of your life to be lawful. I don't think too many people/characters fall perfectly into an alignment axis.
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That depends. 'Lawful' can cover quite a bit at times (and LE will intentionally stretch that L to the breaking point, of course).
First question..WHY is your monk trying to hustle darts and cards? Are we talking trading a little L for G? I remember a few scenes from MASH where Father Mulcahey was sweeping up winnings (or bemoaning the lack thereof). His winnings he said were usually earmarked for the poor, and given he was overall a good guy there's no reason to say otherwise.
Second..seriously, why is your monk hustling?
Third..are there any rules he or she imposes on that hustling anyway? Say, limits on how far to go, who to target, et cetera? How solid are these rules, and why are they there?
Now, you'll likely be walking a fine line, but I can see it working. (And if not ... well, legends abound of those who fell to the temptations of the temporal world, even dedicated martial artists. Will you return to The One True Path?)
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I don't see an issue with this at all. Monk's are lawful because of the discipline required by their training, not out of respect for legal authority. It is perfectly reasonabler to say that the discipline a Monk puts into there martial training also extends to their card counting techniques. The monk can cheat as much as he wants and still be disciplined about it.
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I think you answered your own question.
You propose a character in who specialises in games of chance (chaos) and actively cheats (neutral to evil).
And by your own admission your only taking monk for the ability to flurry throw (which only works for monk weapons - shuriken typically).
Unless your GM is one who hates or ignores alignment (and there are a few out there)I can't see this floating....
However a chaotic martial artist ie old non-unchained monk archetype from the ultimate combat has no alignment restrictions and should work fine.
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Enlightened Warrior Aasimar Trait
Problem solved?
Alternatively, (or additionally?) to expound on your idea, a drunken master who is extremely good at the kinds of games of skill that occur within a tavern isn't inappropriate. There's no reason he would need to cheat or hustle, he could just actually be very good. Demonstrating this skill could either be something he's doing deliberately as a means of gaining enjoyment from beating his opponents and showing his superiority, or it could be that he's hardly even aware that he's as good as he is (much to the chagrin of others) and just considers these mindless, pointlessly fun ways to pass the time.
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You propose a character in who specialises in games of chance (chaos) and actively cheats (neutral to evil).Chaotic, sure - evil? No.
You can probably interpret some forms of cheating as Lawful (not many though). If the game requires a reasonable amount of skill, and if the character is out to prove his superiority and punish fools for their lack of cardmanship, then it could be seen as a Lawful attitude.
Somewhat. A bit. Maybe.
Flagged for wrong board. This belongs in the Advice forum.
I don't see an issue with this at all. Monk's are lawful because of the discipline required by their training, not out of respect for legal authority. It is perfectly reasonabler to say that the discipline a Monk puts into there martial training also extends to their card counting techniques. The monk can cheat as much as he wants and still be disciplined about it.
This is stated in the rules where exactly? If any monk that continues to take monk levels (which represents the training) counts as being a trump-all lawful act like you suggest, then it's literally impossible for a monk to stop being lawful as long as they keep trying to take levels in monk, which runs contrary to the rules restricting non-lawful monks from taking more levels in monk as they would not exist if they were impossible.
Sure, lets say we grant that - However in and of itself cheating would have no place on the good/evil axis.You propose a character in who specialises in games of chance (chaos) and actively cheats (neutral to evil).Chaotic, sure - evil? No.You can probably interpret some forms of cheating as Lawful (not many though). If the game requires a reasonable amount of skill, and if the character is out to prove his superiority and punish fools for their lack of cardmanship, then it could be seen as a Lawful attitude.
Somewhat. A bit. Maybe.
Ahh...no, that's not true.
Law implies honor, trustworthiness ...
a paladin's code requires that she ... act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)
...
They feel guilty lying to others, even if only asked to fib to provide a ruse for their companions.
...
Lawful good characters strive to be forthright in their words and deeds, refuse to lie to others, and keep their covenants.
...
...
The neutral good characters will not always agree with the lawful good characters' meticulous need to plan their actions, control others, or prevent others from disobeying laws that interfere with the party's goals—sometimes less-than-honest tactics are necessary, after all. ...
...
He is loath to break laws or promises
...
They may take great pride in never breaking their word—and thus rarely make promises
...
Being willing to lie doesn't make you automatically chaotic, but it does push you away from the lawful end of the alignment spectrum.
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One Lawful Evil philosophy that would condone cheating at cards is to embrace that everyone who sits down at a card game is voluntarily accepting the risk of losing by bad luck. The evil side of that view adds that playing against someone who cheats is also allowable bad luck.
Playing a game of chance is chaotic. The monk is lawful and thinks that people who play games of chance are wrongheaded and deserve to lose. He, in contrast, is not playing a game of chance. By cheating, he makes it a game of skill.
Other aspects of this philosophy is that he would prefer a combat style that minimizes risk. For example, he would prefer Elemental Fist, which yields guaranteed damage, to Stunning Fist, which gives a Will save. He would prefer to trip an opponent and kick the guy while he is down rather than anything resembling a fair fight.
Keep in mind that one of the characteristics of Hell is corruption. Devils can cheat as long as it profits them and is integrated within their system in a way that doesn't disrupt it.
Keep in mind that one of the characteristics of Hell is corruption. Devils can cheat as long as it profits them and is integrated within their system in a way that doesn't disrupt it.
Just to flip this around, also keep in mind that law enforcement frequently makes judicious use of deception to uncover truth (police deception, stings, undercover operations, etc.)
Though I don't think you can carry that over to cheating at cards.
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
I found something... I might just take 1 level in Monk for the Flurry of Blows Far Strike Monk for the Dart throwing. Honestly, the build isn't focused on Monk, I just wanted to know how to take Monk while being a card shark cheater.
First question..WHY is your monk trying to hustle darts and cards? Are we talking trading a little L for G? I remember a few scenes from MASH where Father Mulcahey was sweeping up winnings (or bemoaning the lack thereof). His winnings he said were usually earmarked for the poor, and given he was overall a good guy there's no reason to say otherwise.
Long story short, he was an orphaned character who lived through luck and gamble. Thematically he uses Cards to attack. I saw the Harrow Archetypes and the Deadly Dealer feat which is why I wanted to use a Dart Throwing Monk for the Flurry of Blows throw attacks.
Think Twisted Fate.
Second..seriously, why is your monk hustling?
Think Twisted Fate.
Third..are there any rules he or she imposes on that hustling anyway? Say, limits on how far to go, who to target, et cetera? How solid are these rules, and why are they there?
He is a cheater but he has some rules. He cheats but only when it comes to cards. He is honest when it comes to things outside the cards. I was thinking of either going Cartomancer Witch and making him a "I cheat my fate but not my words" character. Or Card Caster Magnus card shark.
Like I said, I'm literally tanking a Level in Monk for the extra attack. Not needed, but it would be nice.
Now, you'll likely be walking a fine line, but I can see it working. (And if not ... well, legends abound of those who fell to the temptations of the temporal world, even dedicated martial artists. Will you return to The One True Path?)
Cheating in cards was how he made a living, became a habit. Outside of card games, he is as lawful as the next guy. But soon as he picks up a card, be prepared to see like 12 extra cards up his sleeves (He has 4 decks on his Person after all).
Flagged for wrong board. This belongs in the Advice forum.
The original question was "Can you be Lawful while Cheating". I think the question has been answered ("No" is the general voice I've heard).
I mean, if they want to move this to Advice on how to creating a Card Shark who throws lethal cards at people, we can. But the question asked has been answered.
I don't see an issue with this at all. Monk's are lawful because of the discipline required by their training, not out of respect for legal authority. It is perfectly reasonabler to say that the discipline a Monk puts into there martial training also extends to their card counting techniques. The monk can cheat as much as he wants and still be disciplined about it.This is stated in the rules where exactly? If any monk that continues to take monk levels (which represents the training) counts as being a trump-all lawful act like you suggest, then it's literally impossible for a monk to stop being lawful as long as they keep trying to take levels in monk, which runs contrary to the rules restricting non-lawful monks from taking more levels in monk as they would not exist if they were impossible.
Rule 0 - The game is about having fun.
Rule 1 - A monk who has a system for counting and thereby cheating at cards would fall within the definition of LN and LELawful Neutral: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.
There are several OR statements in there, so just taking the relevant parts for the Monk we have: A lawful neutral character acts as a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount She may believe in personal order and live by a code.
For LE it is even more straightforward
Lawful Evil: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.
For LE it is even more straightforward
Lawful Evil: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He...
Now that statement makes me believe he would be more Lawful Neutral than Lawful Evil. He cheats at cards, and card counts, but he doesn't see this as hurting anyone so long as its in good fun. (Heck the personality I was thinking of would card count to loss if it were against children to get their spirits up... and yes, it is considered cheating if you cheat to loss).
Now its really mixed about the answers....
So would cheating in cards be LN as long as he doesn't do anything else outside of cheating... I mean, as long as he is Card Counting and not Slight of Handing cards into his hand?
For LE it is even more straightforward
Lawful Evil: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He...Now that statement makes me believe he would be more Lawful Neutral than Lawful Evil. He cheats at cards, and card counts, but he doesn't see this as hurting anyone so long as its in good fun. (Heck the personality I was thinking of would card count to loss if it were against children to get their spirits up... and yes, it is considered cheating if you cheat to loss).
Now its really mixed about the answers....
So would cheating in cards be LN as long as he doesn't do anything else outside of cheating... I mean, as long as he is Card Counting and not Slight of Handing cards into his hand?
I wouldn't see anything wrong with sleight of hand within the context of your character's personal philosophy.
It seems that your character cheats at cards [for a reason e.g. to make a living] but is careful only to target willing victims (people who willingly gamble) and doesn't take more than they can afford to lose (the not hurting people part). The techniques he uses to cheat are pretty much irrelevant. The point is he is methodical and disciplined in his approach and does so within a personal code - all lawful characteristics.
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First question..WHY is your monk trying to hustle darts and cards? Are we talking trading a little L for G? I remember a few scenes from MASH where Father Mulcahey was sweeping up winnings (or bemoaning the lack thereof). His winnings he said were usually earmarked for the poor, and given he was overall a good guy there's no reason to say otherwise.Long story short, he was an orphaned character who lived through luck and gamble. Thematically he uses Cards to attack. I saw the Harrow Archetypes and the Deadly Dealer feat which is why I wanted to use a Dart Throwing Monk for the Flurry of Blows throw attacks.
Really, The main question is this is WHOSE LAWS IS HE FOLLOWING?
Is he listening to the laws of the distant king that never did nothing for a 'street rat', whose officials spat and stepped on him? The moral guardians that told their children not to play with a beggar? Sometimes you gotta go with your own code, and codes that normal people might find unlawful from their lofty positions.
Laws often depend on the context and social circles ones lives in. This seems like a place for the laws of the street. Law of the concrete jungle. Trick or be tricked. And everyone is trying to cheat eachother.
In high stakes underworld gambling, cheating can be an artform. Competition is not about who has better luck or simple poker face. It is about who can cheat and get away with it. It is a contest of skill and daring, with the risk of failure paid in blood. If everyone comes in with that expectation that they are going to cheat eachother... then is it really unlawful? I say it is just an unwritten rule, a social more and norm. Only idiots would get involved with the deep dark underworld gambling scene and not expect at least some cheating is going on. There is no 'being good' at games of chance unless you either set up the rules in your favor (ie- house always wins) or you got some tricks up your sleeves. Or someone else's sleeves (seriously- plant cards on someone else and draw them as needed- that seems like a fine use of sleight of hand checks).
So just look at Liar's Game. Kaiji. No Game No Life. Other things that reveal me to be a big anime nerd. That is the kind of attitude you need. There is like...an entire subgenre of series based around this kind of idea. Anyway, point is, you can find plenty of gamblers playing with strict personal codes and intent to help people. So you just need to find the right attitude to justify LG, and find a situation where you can apply it.
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Being lawful has little to do with following the laws of the land. Lawful != legal.
Being lawful has to do with being organized and following some sort of rules.
If those rules include the idea that cheating is okay, as it is part of the game and those who don't catch it are failing at winning the game... well, that is a lawful action so long as you (almost)always do that.
Just have a code that you follow. Even if it is a simple one.
"I never hurt those who do not deserve it. I never steal from those who can not afford it. And I never kill unless I have to."
Is an example of a lawful code.
Things do not always fall on the good/evil or law/chaos axis in the same way. It depends on motive too.
'I always steal if I can' is a lawful action.
'I don't steal unless I happen to feel like it' is chaotic.
'I steal candy from children to see them cry' is an evil action.
'I steal from those who steal, to give to those in need' is a good action.
I believe being too rigid with alignment definitions can be damaging to the fun at the table.
I believe being too rigid with alignment definitions can be damaging to the fun at the table.
Heck, I like the alignment system as a challenge. How far can I twist it and still get a plausible explanation?
It really helps to flesh out the character's mind set. You have to get your character to go from character trait A to alignment B. Figure out a way to get there. You have to create thought processes taht can reconcile the two ends, and that allows you a more robust set of thought patterns to situations than "generic paladin smites when he detects evil".
I want "Paladin attacks angels because he honestly believes that all outsider involvement in the material plane is a major risk to mortals".
I believe being too rigid with alignment definitions can be damaging to the fun at the table.Heck, I like the alignment system as a challenge. How far can I twist it and still get a plausible explanation?
It really helps to flesh out the character's mind set. You have to get your character to go from character trait A to alignment B. Figure out a way to get there. You have to create thought processes taht can reconcile the two ends, and that allows you a more robust set of thought patterns to situations than "generic paladin smites when he detects evil".
I want "Paladin attacks angels because he honestly believes that all outsider involvement in the material plane is a major risk to mortals".
Refine that anti-angel paladin and you might have something. I'm sure azatas aren't going to be getting any birthday cards either.
As far as the original idea? I do kind'a like the feel of it. Rigid code of honour, discipline to not Go Too Far, you might be getting somewhere. Especially if, as mentioned, there's an 'unwritten rule' about how to cheat.
A more visible example of the above? Fighting in the NHL is against the rules of the game. Seriously. But ... well, there's still rules and 'rules' about how you go about earning your five minute penalty. So if your monk's slap shot isn't up to par, but the ranks in Ice Skating are there, and he or she remembers to take a move action to disarm of the hockey gloves (and drop as a free action) ...
It is more of an 'anti god and any outsider' paladin.
And I actually manage to make fey foundling into a relevant character trait- the paladin can just point at the First World and say "oi- look there, the fey are getting along just fine without any 'gods' messing around with them. So why don't all of you pack up and get out of here?"
I made it based off of the fact that there are twice as many gods with the evil domain as there are gods with the good domain. Even taking neutral into the list... it seems like it would be a legitimate criticism that mortals might want ALL gods and outsiders out of the picture.
Rule 1 - A monk who has a system for counting and thereby cheating at cards would fall within the definition of LN and LE
Counting cards isn't cheating.
Counting cards isn't cheating.Rule 1 - A monk who has a system for counting and thereby cheating at cards would fall within the definition of LN and LE
And I disagree that it can't be LG. Lawful is the bit in question here.
What if he counts cards to feed THA CHILDREN! THINK OF THE CHILDREN! THE POOR BLIND/DEAF ORPHANS! WE NEED TO HIRE PEOPLE TO WATCH THEM OR THEY WILL NEVER HEAR IT COMING!
Basically, it is MUCH easier to write off good than it is to write off lawful. Good= doing something nice for others. Usually.
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Oh god, you started an alignment thread. These get notoriously out of hand.
So, in my opinion, how 'lawful' works, is that you lead an ordered life. You make plans, and try to follow through on them, like things in their place. You set dates, have a calander, etc.
In essence, you hate to 'wing it.' You like your rules and order, even if they are only YOUR rules and order.
Now this CAN mean you follow the laws of the land, but it doesn't have to. Only Paladins have a thing against cheating/lying, and that's part of their code, not necessarily part of their lawful-goodness.
Let's pretend we have a Jimmy Deuces, a Cardcaster Magus and poker hustler, who makes his money by cheating at poker games.
Now, Jimmy may be cheating, but he's also methodical about it. He knows exactly how much to wager when, and has a cutoff point where he leaves the table to make sure no one catches on to him. He also lets others win a certain percentage of the time in order to not 'tip his hand.' He routinely practices card cheating almost everyday to stay in top shape, and always does it alone with the blinds drawn so no one gets wise to him. He does this for a living and has become exceptionally adept at it.
Now Jimmy here, as I have portrayed him is lawful, no doubt. Now, is he doing this because he is malicious and wants to hurt and bankrupt the people he plays against? Is he doing it just because it's the best/only way for him to make a decent living? Is he doing this because it's the only thing he's good at, and he's trying to support a group of sick kids that are relying on him? That's where the evil/neutral/good arguement comes in. Sure, cheating is bad, and it might be hard to justify a LG cheater against a LE cheater, but that's not the question. The question is can you be a lawful cheater, and in my opinion, yes, you can.
Counting cards isn't cheating.Rule 1 - A monk who has a system for counting and thereby cheating at cards would fall within the definition of LN and LE
And I disagree that it can't be LG. Lawful is the bit in question here.
What if he counts cards to feed THA CHILDREN! THINK OF THE CHILDREN! THE POOR BLIND/DEAF ORPHANS! WE NEED TO HIRE PEOPLE TO WATCH THEM OR THEY WILL NEVER HEAR IT COMING!
Basically, it is MUCH easier to write off good than it is to write off lawful. Good= doing something nice for others. Usually.
LG cheats - I agree there are scenarios where there could be a LG card cheat but it would be unusual. Most people cheat other people for personal gain, which isn't a good activity, but isn't necessarily evil.
Counting cards not cheating - Certainly not illegal in many countries, but casinos considier it cheating. But debating the ethics of card counting is really not the point of this thread.
I don't see an issue with this at all. Monk's are lawful because of the discipline required by their training, not out of respect for legal authority. It is perfectly reasonabler to say that the discipline a Monk puts into there martial training also extends to their card counting techniques. The monk can cheat as much as he wants and still be disciplined about it.This is stated in the rules where exactly? If any monk that continues to take monk levels (which represents the training) counts as being a trump-all lawful act like you suggest, then it's literally impossible for a monk to stop being lawful as long as they keep trying to take levels in monk, which runs contrary to the rules restricting non-lawful monks from taking more levels in monk as they would not exist if they were impossible.Rule 0 - The game is about having fun.
Rule 1 - A monk who has a system for counting and thereby cheating at cards would fall within the definition of LN and LELawful Neutral: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.There are several OR statements in there, so just taking the relevant parts for the Monk we have: A lawful neutral character acts as a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount She may believe in personal order and live by a code.
For LE it is even more straightforward
Lawful Evil: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He...
I'm not saying a monk can't do those things, I'm just questioning the interpretation that all monks are lawful because training.
Rule zero is advice, not a rule. You're in a subforum about Rules Questions, actually say stuff that fits the subforum.
I'm not saying a monk can't do those things, I'm just questioning the interpretation that all monks are lawful because training.
The origins of the Monk's being lawful because of their discipline originally comes from 1e and has been carried through all the editions ever since.
Monks are monastic aesthetics who practice rigorous mental and physical training and discipline in order to become superior. Therefore they must always be lawful in alignment, although they can be evil, good, or neutral with respect to their approach to lawfulness
For the truly exemplary, martial skill transcends the battlefield—it is a lifestyle, a doctrine, a state of mind. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade. These monks (so called since they adhere to ancient philosophies and strict martial disciplines) elevate their bodies to become weapons of war, from battle-minded ascetics to self-taught brawlers. Monks tread the path of discipline, and those with the will to endure that path discover within themselves not what they are, but what they are meant to be.
You will [hopefully] note that a lot of the terms describing the Monk's characteristics are the same as those describing Lawful characters
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, self-righteousness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
Rule zero is advice, not a rule. You're in a subforum about Rules Questions, actually say stuff that fits the subforum.
All the rules should be taken in the light of what is fun, to do otherwise is just sad. Besides which, the poster posted in this forum and so the reply must also go in this forum.
Keep in mind that one of the characteristics of Hell is corruption. Devils can cheat as long as it profits them and is integrated within their system in a way that doesn't disrupt it.
Just to flip this around, also keep in mind that law enforcement frequently makes judicious use of deception to uncover truth (police deception, stings, undercover operations, etc.)
Though I don't think you can carry that over to cheating at cards.
Sure you can, as long as you can make a convincing argument that cheating at cards is part of your sting operation.
Towers is a sacreligious gambling game played with the sacred deck of cards used for the Harrow by Varisian fortune-tellers.
New question.... would it be considered unlawful or evil or whatever to play Towers with your Family Heirloom?
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Cheating successfully is the ultimate lawful act. Anyone can follow the rules, but being able to subvert the rules requires True Mastery of them. You aren't satisfied with merely winning the game, you seek to conquer it, to bend it to your will, to enforce yourself on the rules, rather than the other way around.
See if your GM goes with that. If not, well, looks like you're going to the Shadow Realm.
Cheating successfully is the ultimate lawful act. Anyone can follow the rules, but being able to subvert the rules requires True Mastery of them. You aren't satisfied with merely winning the game, you seek to conquer it, to bend it to your will, to enforce yourself on the rules, rather than the other way around.
See if your GM goes with that. If not, well, looks like you're going to the Shadow Realm.
That sounds like a chaotic attitude to me ;-). To paraphrase, you know the rules but consider yourself better than them and set out to prove that by winning by breaking them
Okay so really dumb question here.... was looking at some interesting builds and I wanted to know if it would be possible to have a Lawful cheater? I was thinking of making a Card-Shark Darts player and take a level in Monk for the Fury of Throw Weapons for extra attacks.
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
You only need to be lawful while your a monk. After that there is nothing stopping you from changing alignment and using all you have learned up until then.
The card and gambling addiction could even be what made you leave being a monk.
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Okay so really dumb question here.... was looking at some interesting builds and I wanted to know if it would be possible to have a Lawful cheater? I was thinking of making a Card-Shark Darts player and take a level in Monk for the Fury of Throw Weapons for extra attacks.
Problem is, Card Sharking and Cheating are considered unlawful and would be frowned upon with the Monk.... Is there any way to make a Cheating Monk? Some code that allows cheating in some way shape or form with card games, and use said cards to rain hell on the enemy?
A lawful character will have a CODE they follow. Being lawful doesn't mean they obey every legal law, but they do adhere to their code which may include following actual laws. The code should be complex and detailed if you want a character is lawful, but not legal.
As a guideline, at least as many rules in your code as you have points of intelligence. This is important, as a smarter character will consider more loopholes to their own system than a less intelligent one. The point of the code isn't to allow you to do whatever you want, but a self-imposed system that orders your world.
Chances are pretty high that your character doesn't consider cheating in cards to be dishonorable if their concept is built around it. Perhaps you consider cheating to be within the intended and unwritten rules of card games.
A lawful character will have a CODE they follow. Being lawful doesn't mean they obey every legal law, but they do adhere to their code which may include following actual laws. The code should be complex and detailed if you want a character is lawful, but not legal.
As a guideline, at least as many rules in your code as you have points of intelligence. This is important, as a smarter character will consider more loopholes to their own system than a less intelligent one. The point of the code isn't to allow you to do whatever you want, but a self-imposed system that orders your world.
Chances are pretty high that your character doesn't consider cheating in cards to be dishonorable if their concept is built around it. Perhaps you consider cheating to be within the intended and unwritten rules of card games.
So something like this?
* Growing up in the streets I made a living by gambling at the tavern. I was taught quicky that you either cheat or loss with no middleground against these opponents. While I make a living in this chaotic game, I have not been consumed by them. This is my code:
1.) There is no luck or stratagy in cards. Cheating is the heart of the game. I will cheat in these games whenever possible against my opponent regardless if they know this rule or not. Cheating can be used to win or loss these games. I will not prey against those who cannot afford to loss.
2.) Growing up on the streets with the other orphans, we worked togeather to survive. While mine was one of the more "legal" ways, we all pulled our weight to keep eachother alive. No matter who they are, keep to those who have proven their loyalty.
3.) I will not beg for anything I cannot take. If they say no, I will find othee ways of aquireing what I seek. I will never ask something from someone who cannot afford it unless I promise payment in return.
4.) Never hurt or harm the Orphens or Beggers and do not condon those who do. Help when it is needed and do not abandon those who need you. Never demand or ask for a reward, but never turn down one whenever it is offered.
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So with thia code, Lawful Neutral?
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So something like this?
* Growing up in the streets I made a living by gambling at the tavern. I was taught quicky that you either cheat or loss with no middleground against these opponents. While I make a living in this chaotic game, I have not been consumed by them. This is my code:
1.) There is no luck or stratagy in cards. Cheating is the heart of the game. I will cheat in these games whenever possible against my opponent regardless if they know this rule or not. Cheating can be used to win or loss these games. I will not prey against those who cannot afford to loss.
2.) Growing up on the streets with the other orphans, we worked togeather to survive. While mine was one of the more "legal" ways, we all pulled our weight to keep eachother alive. No matter who they are, keep to those who have proven their loyalty.
3.) I will not beg for anything I cannot take. If they say no, I will find othee ways of aquireing what I seek. I will never ask something from someone who cannot afford it unless I promise payment in return.
4.) Never hurt or harm the Orphens or Beggers and do not condon those who do. Help when it is needed and do not abandon those who need you. Never demand or ask for a reward, but never turn down one whenever it is offered.
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So with thia code, Lawful Neutral?
I think you missed it a bit. If your character sees cheating as cheating, then its cheating.
#1 needs a re-write. All I'm seeing is a compulsion to always cheat in cards, not a code to live by.
#2 is too vague. Clearly define. The background doesn't matter, it's actions in the present moment which are affected by your code. How does his/her passion for loyalty affect their code?
#3 and #4 are better, though I'd suggest being more specific to things you do, rather than things you don't do. I'd also specifically define what makes each thing each thing. #4 does seem like you'll run into issues in the pathfinder setting, as orphans are pretty common in the Monsters you'll be fighting (Spiders, for example, don't grow up with any parents....).
In example, I'd switch #4 to something like:
#10) People who mistreat beggars and orphans require death and/or destruction. Disregard the other 9 rules and demolish such beings without regard for personal safety.
Sounds fun, but codes like this one will likely get you killed and make you very vulnerable to becoming an EVIL character. And the main issue with this one is that if you personally mistreat a beggar or orphan, your code obligates you to kill yourself (which you would willing do).
A GM would only allow something like this if your other 9 were much more reasonable and restricting.
And I still think "beggar" and "orphan" are ill-defined concepts, very prone to covering more things than you intend.
what about a Card Counter. Cheating through Math and Memory rather than through cards up the sleave and cheap tricks.
Your cheating would amount to a very orderly mind that understands the probabilities of each hand. Take it a bit further to calculating how people react and how to manipulate their personalities during a match.
You cheat by planning out the whole game, a dozen or more moves ahead. You stay within the rules but you use everything you have against them.
This is the guy who slips a false tell in at the begining of the game while thinking about when he plans to drop it for the last hand of the night.
@Miedok: I was more thinking to give him tenits similar to the Grey Fox from Oblivion refarding beggers. Hey may chew someone out or confront someone if he sees what they are doing to the orphans or beggers. Though true, my vauge speach gave way for loopholes like the orphaned goblins.
1. Any ideas for a rewrite?
2. True... I was thinking something along the lines of if they have somethinv that proves themselves loyal to the group than you have him 100% and subsequently if you do something to betray the group he will drop to 0%.
3. I like if fo be honest.
4. How would yoy write this in the code od the Grey Fox Thieves Guild?
@Greylurker: I suck at card counting though. But I love the idea.
If cheating is the only aspect of none lawfulness then you can role play it as "my only vice". As a GM I would really be vigilant for other infractions and give you helpful hints but ultimately its your character so if you can justify it to yourself then it's fine by me.
