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So I kinda like the idea of the Golarion god Kurgess, whose favored weapon is the javelin. It got me wondering if there's a way to make a viable PC that specializes in javelin throwing. This would be for Pathfinder Society, so starting at level 1, PFS legal, etc.
I'm open to pretty much any class, race, or concept that's PFS legal, as long as they worship Kurgess and specialize in javelins.
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There is a barbarian archetype that give +10 feet to thrown weapon increments instead of base speed. It's a good dip for a thrower. Also a blinkback belt though I'm not sure if that would work with javelins.
Otherwise I'd say a warpriest would be a good option for the sacred weapon and free weapon focus. Plus you'd want all the ranged weapon feats and Far shot to reduce the penalty once you get into the extra range increments.
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Hmm... regardless of my primary class for this one, that Hurler archetype might be worth a one level dip into barbarian just for the extra range increment. Also, barbarian HP and a little bit of rage per day could be good. I was originally thinking warpriest, but a one level barb dip could be worth it.
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Well, if you're going for a warpriest, how about this for a human warpriest:
lvl 1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus : Javelin
lvl 3 - Startoss Style, Startoss Comet
lvl 5 - Quick Draw
lvl 6 - Vital Strike
lvl 7 - Martial Focus
lvl 9 - Ricochet Toss, Deadly Aim
lvl 11- Startoss Shower
I'd probably go with stats like:
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 7
This build, while maybe not doing as much damage as a 2-weapon thrower, should reliably be doing, without buffs or magic weapons, 1d6+7 (plus another 1d6+7 versus a second opponent if you hit) at 3rd level. At 6th, it's 2d8+7 (plus 1d8+7 versus a second target). At 9th, you're javelin returns after the attack, and your attacks should be doing 1d8+12. If you're fine with losing a blessing and channel, take the Molthuni arsenal chaplain archetype. It will get you weapon training, which means that you can skip martial focus and take ricochet toss earlier. It also means that you qualify for advanced weapon training, and gloves of dueling. And you can easily fit in 2 weapon fighting, as most of the damage boosts are static, however Javelins aren't light weapons, so you're going to take a -4 to hit while throwing 2 of them. Trading it for deadly aim is probably the best choice.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't seen those Startoss feats before. I'll have to look them up.
I'm not really married to the warpriest idea. Honestly, I have no idea what class I'd do this with. Warpriest just seems to fit for a martially inclined, devout PC.
But for a combat style (thrown weapons) that requires lots of feats to do well, the generic fighter class may be better.
I could even play mix and match. One level of Hurler barbarian for the extended range on thrown weapons and a little rage per day, two levels of warpriest for free Weapon Focus and Divine Favor with fervor a couple of times per day, a few fighter levels for full BAB and bonus feats, etc.
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The best way I know of is the far hand monk. They start off with QuickDraw and proficiency with all 'thrown' weapons, and can flurry with any thrown weapons.
The major problem you are going to run into, however, is that at higher levels you are going to find yourself becoming lackluster, and that's because the game assumes that you will have enchanted weapons at higher levels, but you are throwing your weapons away. The returning property doesn't help because the weapon returns 'at the end of the round' so you can't make multiple attacks. Basically to pull this off you'd need an arsenal of +3 javelins, which is prohibitively expensive.
The dagger of splitting can solve this problem a bit, but won't help in the long run as it is only a +1 (and it's a dagger). I've heard of a feat that lets you bounce thrown weapons back to your hand, letting you full attack with an enchanted weapon, but I don't know what it's called. If that's true, that is 100% the way to go.
The only other way to fix this is with the blinkback belt, which teleports thrown items back to you. If you have QuickDraw, you can use it but it a) doesn't work with javelins (only light weapons) and b) takes up your belt slot so no belts of str/dex.
I really don't want to be a negative nancy, but throwing masters simply aren't well suited for pathfinder. It sucks that they get so little love, but it just doesn't work out that way. Unless that bounceback feat works, then it might actually be good.
Then there is the Sharding special ability.
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Then there is the Sharding special ability.
Wow, I did NOT know about that ability. They finally made a Dagger of Splitting that can be put on different items now? Interesting.
Counting as a +2 ability hurts it, certainly, as does the range increment of 10 feet, but it gives you an option, which is cool.
My friend who has a PFS far-hand monk uses a rope-dart as his primary weapon, which lets him attack, yank back, and attack again. He's enchanted it up the Wazu.
IMO, in PFS at higher levels, if you are any kind of character that relies on weapons, you need to get yourself to at least a +3 weapon in order to overcome DR cold iron/silver, ESPECIALLY if you are a 'nickle and dime' kind of character like a thrower. It doesn't matter so much if you are a Barbarian with vital strike and you do one attack that deals stupid amounts of damage, but if you are going to be making a bunch of little attacks, DR 5 or 10/(Cold-Iron or Silver) can really hurt you. I recommend a +3 adamantine weapon if you can manage it, but that gets a little pricey (and few of my characters actually manage it.) Combined with sharding, that's a +5 weapon, which you certainly can afford, but not until level 10 at the earliest probably.
EDIT: Found the bounceback feat: Ricochet Toss. Unfortunatly, it requires the weapon training class feature, which means that basically it only works for fighters.
Here's what I would do:
Human Fighter (Mutation warrior as an archetype would give you some nice boosts. You loose armor training, but as a str-dex build you won't be running around in full plate anyway. Just get yourself some mithral breastplate and you'll be fine.)
Str:16
Dex:16
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:12
Chr:7
Level 1: Point blank shot, precise shot, Quick Draw
Level 2: Rapid Shot
Level 3: Deadly Aim
Level 4: Weapon Focus: Javelin
Level 5: Weapon Spec: Javelin (and weapon training-thrown)
Level 6: Ricochet Toss (at this point you can retrain quickdraw into toughness or something)
Level 7: Point blank master
Level 8: Far shot
Basically just buy a bunch of normal Javalins and some mithral breastplate until you hit level six, then dump all your money into a +2 (or so) adamantine Javalin and just use that sucker.
That's what I'd do at least.
EDIT: Found the bounceback feat: Ricochet Toss. Unfortunatly, it requires the weapon training class feature, which means that basically it only works for fighters.
In the same book is a feat you can pick up that counts as weapon training for the purposes of picking feats like this one up.
Just an FYI.
Ghorrin Redblade
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EDIT: Found the bounceback feat: Ricochet Toss. Unfortunatly, it requires the weapon training class feature, which means that basically it only works for fighters.In the same book is a feat you can pick up that counts as weapon training for the purposes of picking feats like this one up.
Just an FYI.
Ghorrin Redblade
Thanks, I don't actually own the book, a friend does and he told me about that feat only. I had to look it up on archives of Nethys
That being said, I'm actually pretty sold on using a fighter. The throwing weapon build requires all the feats of an archery build, plus some extra ones, so the best way to get all those feats IMO is to go fighter. Plus, with mutation warrior, you can get the bonus to Str like a barbarian without having to deal with issues of rage. I know some people really hate the class and say it is terrible, but really, I think fighter is the best way to go.
There's always the blinkback belt, too - it specifically says the item returns immediately after the attack is resolved, so technically you can make all your thrown attacks with a single weapon assuming you have Quick Draw. It does presume you have access to that particular magic item, and does replace a stat booster in your belt slot unless you have access to custom magic item crafting to combine them, but it really makes throwing weapons better.
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I actually have a thread on making a thrown weapons build here
If you happen to be using Automatic Bonus Progression, thrown weapon experts become that little bit more viable. One of the biggest issues with Thrown weapons is that a Blinkback Belt is all but required. Since this uses up your belt slot for magic items it prevents you from using a Dexterity/Strength enhancing belt.
Yeah Automatic Bonus Progression helps a lot, but Blinkback belt is not required.
There is a feat called Ricochet Toss which has the same effect as the Blinkback belt, but unless you play a fighter you must pay a feat tax to get access to it (I forget the name).
This brings up the biggest problem though...
Building a competent thrower is feat intensive.
I built a 10th level fighter and he still doesn't have all the feats I wish he did.
I don't think you can accomplish being a thrower very well unless you're a fighter. You just need an unreasonable number of feats.
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Can you give us a list of all the feats you're thinking of, Claxon? VampByDay's post above seems pretty good, but it sounds like you have more feats in mind than what he listed.
As for my idea for my PC, fighter seems like a solid class choice. I can't see going Mutation Warrior with him, though. He'll worship Kurgess, the god of fair athletic competition, so the idea of using performance enhancing drugs just seems wrong. Or ironically funny, but I think I prefer to play it straight. Definitely one of those times when personality has to trump the best mechanical choice.
The Weapon Master archetype might be worth considering, though. It gives up armor training to get weapon training two levels sooner and a weapon reroll once per day (twice at level 10, but this is for PFS, so I'll never get him up to the level of the third reroll). Given that he won't be on the front line, I won't need to focus as much on AC anyway, so I probably won't bother with heavy armor.
A two level dip in warpriest might be worthwhile. With the free Weapon Focus at level 1, I'll only be one feat behind going straight fighter. I'm thinking Fates Favored trait + Divine Favor (cast as a swift action using Fervor) for +2/+2 on all attacks in 3 fights per day. This would also give blessings, and the ability to use wands and scrolls of any cleric spell, which could be handy. Just being able to use a wand of CLW would make me a good enough backup healer in PFS. And I'd only be one level behind straight fighter on BAB and feats, while the Divine Favor would make up for slowing my Weapon Training progression. Actually, with the Weapon Master archetype, my Weapon Training progression would be the same as a non-archetype fighter.
I think I really like that idea: Warpriest of Kurgess 2/Weapon Master Fighter X
Edit: Now that I think about it, the two level warpriest dip won't put me behind on feat progression. It'll just re-arrange the order in which I get the bonus feats, and force me to take Weapon Focus as one of them.
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Can you give us a list of all the feats you're thinking of, Claxon? VampByDay's post above seems pretty good, but it sounds like you have more feats in mind than what he listed.
I'm not claxon, but here is a run down of desired feats:
Quick Draw is mandatory, as is Ricochet Toss.
Standard Ranged feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Cluster Shots, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, and either close quarters thrower or point blank master. Possibly Snap Shot.
Choice of either Two Weapon Fighting or Startoss Style. Startoss gives +6 to damage and a ranged cleave, but locks you out of TWF. Either way its 2-3 feats.
Add to it any trick feats. Ranged Trip + Ace Trip to bring down fliers in particular.
And if you want to have a decent range, Distance Thrower, Far Shot, or both.
It's really a staggering number of feats, and you may want to change the warpriest dip to a Far Strike Monk just to get three of them as bonus feats.
Can you give us a list of all the feats you're thinking of, Claxon? VampByDay's post above seems pretty good, but it sounds like you have more feats in mind than what he listed.
I'm not claxon, but here is a run down of desired feats:
Quick Draw is mandatory, as is Ricochet Toss.
Standard Ranged feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Cluster Shots, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, and either close quarters thrower or point blank master. Possibly Snap Shot.
Choice of either Two Weapon Fighting or Startoss Style. Startoss gives +6 to damage and a ranged cleave, but locks you out of TWF. Either way its 2-3 feats.
Add to it any trick feats. Ranged Trip + Ace Trip to bring down fliers in particular.
And if you want to have a decent range, Distance Thrower, Far Shot, or both.
It's really a staggering number of feats, and you may want to change the warpriest dip to a Far Strike Monk just to get three of them as bonus feats.
Yep, pretty much exactly what I was thinking Imbicatus
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It might not have all of the feats that you want, but have you considered Slayer, using the ranger combat style for Thrown Weapons?
If the ranger selects thrown weapon, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Distance Thrower, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Close-Quarters Thrower and False Opening to the list. At 10th level, he adds Pinpoint Targeting and Shot on the Run to the list.
Emphasis mine.
Precise Shot and CQT without the extra feats might cut down on the load required. (Early entry to Pinpoint Targeting is cute, but probably not optimal.)
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Precise Shot and CQT without the extra feats might cut down on the load required. (Early entry to Pinpoint Targeting is cute, but probably not optimal.)
As you'll need point blank for other feats, jumping to Precise Shot isn't that exciting. Close-Quarters Thrower only really lets you bypass dodge as you'll want/need focus so all together it's one feat saved.
Imbicatus: Improve Precise Shot 5 levels early might be something worthwhile but I'll agree it's most likely not worth it.
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Let's go with straight fighter. You can throw in archetypes as ya like, but keeping weapon training is really good for this build.
Human for the bonus feat.
H-Weapon Focus Javelin
1-Point blank shot
1F-Precise shot
2-Startoss Style
3-Startoss comet
4-Weapon Specialization Javelin
5-Startoss Shower
6-Quickdraw
7-Ricochet Toss
8-Rapid Shot
9-Advanced weapon training (Armed Bravery)
10-Deadly Aim
11-Greater Weapon Focus
12-Greater Weapon Specialization.
At level 5 grab weapon training thrown weapons.
At level 9 grab advanced weapon training trained throw.
Startoss Style (as many people recommend) give +2 damage for each Startoss feat that you have.
Startoss Comet lets you make an attack as a standard action. If it hits, you can make a second attack at a different foe within one range increment at the same attack bonus.
Startoss Shower lets you hit even more foes! You get the initial attack and 1 bounce, plus 1 more per 5 BAB. At level 5 that's hitting 3 foes. It's nice.
And we grab quickdraw just in time to make iterative attacks.
Ricochet Toss makes a thrown weapon return to you when you throw it. This means you don't have to have multiples of a kind. Unlike the above poster, you cannot retrain quickdraw, since it's a prerequisite for Ricochet Toss.
@ level 9 you get 2 advanced weapon trainings, one from feat and one from trading out your second weapon training. Your numbers for thrown weapons will still go up as normal, though.
Armed bravery lets you add your bravery bonus to all will saves!
Trained Throw lets you add double your weapon training bonus to damage with thrown weapons, assuming you're using dex for attacks and strength for damage. At 9, that's +4 to damage for all thrown weapons.
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If you want to take an archetype that trades out weapon training you can grab the feat Martial Focus. It gives +1 to damage with one fighter weapon group and counts as the PC as having the weapon training class feature.
You can use this feat in combination with the martial master fighter archetype. It gets martial flexibility like a brawler in exchange for weapon training.
This nets you more feats in total, but it forces you to gain them during combat and requires a bit more bookkeeping.
If you want to take an archetype that trades out weapon training you can grab the feat Martial Focus. It gives +1 to damage with one fighter weapon group and counts as the PC as having the weapon training class feature.
You can use this feat in combination with the martial master fighter archetype. It gets martial flexibility like a brawler in exchange for weapon training.
This nets you more feats in total, but it forces you to gain them during combat and requires a bit more bookkeeping.
There is a really big reason to not do this, Trained Throw from Advanced Weapon Training. It doubles your damage from Weapon Training. Which makes this not a very good idea, IMO.
Hmm, any idea how Trained Throw works with the extra weapon training damage of the Dragoon archetype?
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Ectar's build looks very good for beating up on multiple targets. I really like the concept of Startoss Style, Comet, and Shower for hitting multiple targets, and having +6 damage just for having the three feats.
The down side is that if you're facing a single enemy with lots of HP, you don't get those extra attacks, and that's probably when you need them most. His approach does give you lots of damage boosts on a single attack. He's got 4 feats that add +2 damage each by level 5 for +8 before strength and Weapon Training bonuses. But I think I'd rather have more shots than more damage per shot that early, so I think I'd probably want Quick Draw and Rapid Shot much earlier, and add Clustered Shots to get past DR.
The Weapon Master archetype I was looking at gives up Armor Training to get Weapon Training two levels sooner and a few other minor things. But it never gets Weapon Training in additional weapon groups, so you can't get Advanced Weapon Training without spending a feat. So that archetype is looking less appealing. Speaking of Advanced Weapon Training, the Focused Weapon option looks pretty nice, given that javelins only do 1d6 base damage - this would up it to 1d10 at level 11, which as an average of 2 more HP of damage per shot. Pushing back Weapon Training would be the one unappealing aspect of dipping warpriest.
Also, I didn't realize there were so many damage boosting feats for fighters, with all the Startoss feats adding +2 each, Weapon Specialization, Deadly Aim, etc. I was originally worried about balancing dex and str, but I think I can easily cut back on str and just focus on dex from the start, to make sure I hit early and often. The feats will cover the damage.
Ectar's build looks very good for beating up on multiple targets. I really like the concept of Startoss Style, Comet, and Shower for hitting multiple targets, and having +6 damage just for having the three feats.
The down side is that if you're facing a single enemy with lots of HP, you don't get those extra attacks, and that's probably when you need them most. His approach does give you lots of damage boosts on a single attack. He's got 4 feats that add +2 damage each by level 5 for +8 before strength and Weapon Training bonuses. But I think I'd rather have more shots than more damage per shot that early, so I think I'd probably want Quick Draw and Rapid Shot much earlier, and add Clustered Shots to get past DR.
The Weapon Master archetype I was looking at gives up Armor Training to get Weapon Training two levels sooner and a few other minor things. But it never gets Weapon Training in additional weapon groups, so you can't get Advanced Weapon Training without spending a feat. So that archetype is looking less appealing. Speaking of Advanced Weapon Training, the Focused Weapon option looks pretty nice, given that javelins only do 1d6 base damage - this would up it to 1d10 at level 11, which as an average of 2 more HP of damage per shot. Pushing back Weapon Training would be the one unappealing aspect of dipping warpriest.
Also, I didn't realize there were so many damage boosting feats for fighters, with all the Startoss feats adding +2 each, Weapon Specialization, Deadly Aim, etc. I was originally worried about balancing dex and str, but I think I can easily cut back on str and just focus on dex from the start, to make sure I hit early and often. The feats will cover the damage.
Yeah, there are so many damage boosting options that the bonus to damage from strength on thrown weapons isn't terribly important IMO.
I would personally set strength no higher than 14, and you really only need 13 strength to pick up Distance Thrower (which I would recommend).
Between weapon spec (+2), greater weapon spec (+2), deadly aim (+8), Weapon Training with Trained Throw and Gloves of Dueling (+8) you can have +20 damage per hit at level 12. The +1-4 damage from strength just isn't substantial compared to the point buy cost of it. Much better to start with a higher dex and not worry much about strength, except having enough to get Trained Throw.
You can then also choose to invest in Startoss Style which will add 2-6 damage, but I prefer to use TWF so I get those additional attacks. Because you will already have so much static damage per hit, additional attacks with +20 damage are better (IMO) than adding +6 damage to the attacks you already have. Hitting with 1 offhand attack does more damage than the bonus you would get from landing 3 successful attacks with Startoss Style, though your too hit will drop a bit. Still worth it I think.
TWF can apply to both melee and ranged rolls, and can get a second off-hand hit with Imporved TWF, for only a slight damage loss, you get a more versatile feat.
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TWF can apply to both melee and ranged rolls, and can get a second off-hand hit with Imporved TWF, for only a slight damage loss, you get a more versatile feat.
Ok, I get it. For light thrown weapons like daggers, that's probably the way to go. In fact, my TWF Unchained Knife Master Rogue is planning to stick to daggers even in ranged combat, except for longer ranges.
Javelins aren't light though, so I'd take -4 to hit instead of -2 if I used TWF instead of Rapid Shot. Not worth it. But I'd still pick either one over Startoss Style, Comet, and Shower, just for the versatility of attacking the same target multiple times, rather than bouncing the weapon off multiple mooks. Startoss is still worth considering for the +2 damage per feat, though.
So here's the feats I think we can mostly agree on for a javelin throwing build:
Must have feats (in this order):
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Shot
Ricochet Toss (required to get a magic weapon, which is why this is "Must Have")
Feats to increase hit chance (Weapon Focus and one of Distance Thrower or Far Shot are pretty close to counting as "Must Have"):
Weapon Focus
Distance Thrower
Far Shot
Greater Weapon Focus
Advanced Weapon Training - Fighter's Tactics
Friendly Fire Maneuvers (only with Fighter's Tactics, above)
Improved Precise Shot
Feats to increase damage (and flexibility if you're attacking multiple targets):
Startoss Style
Startoss Comet
Startoss Shower
Weapon Specialization
Deadly Aim
Clustered Shots
Advanced Weapon Training - Trained Throw
Advanced Weapon Training - Focused Weapon
Other nice feats to have:
Point Blank Master
Snap Shot
Ranged Trip
Ace Trip
Obviously, this is too many feats for any one PC, even a human fighter. But at least it shows what to consider. Did I miss any?
Why does everyone keep saying TWF instead of Rapid Shot? Does Rapid Shot not work with thrown weapons? I just re-read Rapid Shot, and it uses the wording "ranged weapon" and "fire", rather than "throw", but thrown weapons are lumped in with ranged weapons in the books, so I'd think it would work.
I was insisting you use TWF with Rapid Shot, and not use Startoss Style...so not sure what you're referring to.
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So, I quickly did some napkin math assuming weapon training Trained throw and weapon specialization on all builds with a few of the different feat choices at level 11 vs level appropriate AC. Actually, did it twice, once assuming that you can use rapid shot with thrown weapons, once where I assumed you couldn't. Here's what assuming rapid shot showed.
- The difference between using startoss style, with, and without deadly aim, and using TWFing with and without deadly aim was at most 2.65.
- Startoss style with deadly aim did the most damage, while Startoss Style without deadly aim did the least.
- Adding an extra attack, as through haste, Startoss Style did on average 10 damage more than TWFing, both with deadly aim and without.
- Startoss style with deadly aim does the most damage with a standard action (this one is pretty obvious, but is worth pointing out.)
Now, when I did the math without rapid shot, here's how things ended up;
- The difference between TWFing and startoss style was around 12 points of damage, in favor of TWFing.
- The difference between using deadly aim and not using deadly aim was ordinarily negligible.
- Adding an extra attack, as with haste, startoss style without deadly aim does around 7 less damage than using deadly aim. Using startoss style with deadly aim does roughly equivalent damage to TWFing with or without deadly aim.
- Once again, startoss style with deadly aim does the most damage with only a standard action.
So my biggest takeaway would be to figure out where your GM sit on whether rapid shot can be used with thrown weapons, or whether it's only for projectile ranged weapons, cause it will affect which is the best option. Also, on a full attack, deadly aim is of questionable value. Also, for simplicity's sake, I assumed for that both builds would have equivalent enhancement bonuses, however startoss would likely have a +1 bonus over TWFing, since without flurry of blows, or a similar ability, you're required to have a weapon in both hands to use TWFing. If you take that into account, startoss will be better with rapid shot, and without rapid shot, startoss is a couple points lower without haste, and better with haste.
Have to say, without running the numbers, I was going to agree with claxon, and say that TWFing is the better style, but with the added bonuses to Startoss, like better damage on a standard and being able to spread damage out to multiple targets, I'm flip flopping back to Startoss Style as my suggestion.
TWF should be 3 points of attack bonus behind and 6 points of damage per attack behind for an otherwise similar build.
I think an important consideration is whether or not Rapid Shot applies to both main hand and off-hand attacks when TWF. I'm not entirely sure, but if it does I really think it skews the damage in favor TWF.
If you look at the build I did in the thread I linked earlier, 1 successful off-hand attack deals about as much damage as the damage granted from 3 attacks using Startoss Style with all 3 feats.
Can you post the numbers and calculations (along with the build you used?)
It would also be worthwhile to us monster's at character's level and level +4 to determine AC target's.
I will say, I already expect Startoss Style to be better against higher AC enemies, and will clearly win on a standard action single attack.
But I would expect that TWF on a full attack will win against lower AC targets (usually a majority of enemies).
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I think an important consideration is whether or not Rapid Shot applies to both main hand and off-hand attacks when TWF. I'm not entirely sure, but if it does I really think it skews the damage in favor TWF.
Rapid shot only adds one attack per round and TWF only adds one offhand attack per round per feat. You can use them together for two bonus attacks per round at highest bab, but then all attacks have a -4 penalty.
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TWF should be 3 points of attack bonus behind and 6 points of damage per attack behind for an otherwise similar build.
Javelin's aren't a light weapon, so the penalty to two weapon fight is -4, then assuming you'll be 1 behind on your enhancement bonus, it's -5.
I didn't save the info, but I'll try and rebuild some of it here. So level 11 build with a +3 javelin. Both have the same stats;
Str 14
Dex 24 (18 starting, +2 from level, +4 from belt)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 7
Feats are;
lvl 1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Javelin)
lvl 2 Rapid Shot
lvl 3 Two Weapon Fighting/Startoss Style
lvl 4 Weapon Specialization (Javelin)
lvl 5 Quick Draw
lvl 6 Improved Two Weapon Fighting/Startoss Comet
lvl 7 Deadly Aim
lvl 8 Greater Weapon Focus (Javelin)
lvl 9 x/Startoss Shower
lvl 10 Advanced Weapon Training (Trained Throw)
lvl 11 Ricochet toss
Weapon training was thrown at 5, advance weapon training at 9 for focus weapon. Assume both builds have gloves of dueling. Can't remember what the extra feat was for two weapon fighting build, but for now I'll just say it's an extra feat for that build. Cluster shots would be a good choice though.
So attack bonus should be 11 BAB+ 7 Dex + 3 feats + 4 training + 2/3 enhancement for +27/28 at full BAB.
With rapid shot, two weapon fighting and deadly aim the attack sequence should be;
+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 for the two weapon fighter
+22/+22/+17/+12 for the startoss style fighter
Average damage for these should be;
26.5 for the two weapon fighter
33.5 for the startoss style
The twfer should take a 1 point drop on off hand attacks, but for simplicity, we'll just use the one number.
Average AC for a CR 11 is 25, Average AC for a CR 15 is 30.
Twfer will average 3.2 hits against AC 25, and 1.8 hits versus AC 30.
Startoss will average 2.85 hits against AC 25, and 1.85 hits versus AC 30.
Average damage then is 84.8 damage for twfing, and 95.475 for startoss against CR 11.
Average damage is 47.7 damage for twfing, and 61.975 damage for startoss against CR 15.
Add in haste, because it's the most common buff spell in the game;
TWFer will average 4.25 and 2.6 hits versus AC 25 and 30 respectively.
Startoss will average 3.95 and 2.75 hits versus AC 25 and 30.
Average damage for TWFer is 112.625 and 68.9 against the CR 11 and 15 respectively.
Average damage for startoss is 132.325 and 92.125 against CR 11 and 15.
So these new calculations with a difference in enhancement bonus really seems to favor the startoss style. If the build was instead a starknife thrower, or dagger thrower, the numbers would probably swing in favor of twfing, but for a Javelin build, startoss style definitely seems to be the way to go.
EDIT - Okay, I actually messed up here. Startoss should have +1 to attack over these calculations, so the numbers should be even better for it, but I'm not going to go back to correct everything now.
Sorry, I wasn't using javelins in my example. I've been using starknives so that it's only a -2 from TWF, not a -4. So my build would have +2 higher to hit than your example.
I would agree that for javelins (because they are not light weapons) that it would be better to go startoss.
I need to run the numbers with my starknives.
Edit: Running the numbers for my build that I linked earlier that is using TWF with starknives (and correcting that Rapid Shot doesn't grant an extra attack to the off-hand) gives me a DPR of ~62 against AC 25. But my character doesn't have Deadly Aim and is only level 10. He also has Point Blank Master at level 11, which your build does not. Which means any attack you make in melee range provokes.
Unless I'm doing something incorrect with my calculations.
Double Edit: By replacing TWF with Startoss style on my build the DPR becomes 74, but I calculated using all 3 Startoss Style feats, while my actual character build only has Two Weapon Fighting feat (no Improved or Greater yet) because of how many other feats you really need to avoid things like provoking for making ranged attacks, or avoid attack penalties for firing through people (Improved Precise Shot).
If I do my build the generous favor of adding in ITWF then the DPR becomes 75.5. Slightly higher than the Startoss version, but still has spent 1 less feat.
Has anyone seen if the new feat for dex to damage with star knives in ultimate intrigue applies to thrown as well? I haven't got the book yet. I'd be interested in seeing if it does and how that affects the numbers.
I have not, but that would be relevant to my interests.
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If you went with starknives instead of javelins TWF should pull ahead. Not having to eat an extra -2 is a big boost.
Actually, quickly redoing the numbers with a -2 instead of -4 for starknives and taking out greater weapon focus for the startoss style so that both builds can have point blank master, both builds do very similar damage, and once again startoss has the advantage when haste comes into play.
Vital strike feats can be used to boost damage to the first target for startoss.
True but that would require several more feats, and require you to actually make the attacks against multiple enemies (which isn't good since focusing damage on a single opponent is usually better) because of how the feats function (unless I misunderstand). He's basically just picked up the feats because they are a flat damage increase like weapon spec.
And knowing the liklihood of getting a haste (since you can't cast it yourself) would help to determine which is most effective. I know with the current group I'm playing in (Winter Witch, Fire Sorcerer, Aether Kineticist, Investigator, Unchained Monk, and Inquisitor) if I were to replace my Inquisitor with a thrown weapon character it would be incredibly unlikely to actually get a haste. The fire sorcerer doesn't buff. He cast fire spells, and the witch debuffs, and nobody else can do it.
So it will depend on party composition that will determine which is better overall. It sounds like they are pretty neck-a-neck. In which case, the idea of dual wielding starknives as thrown weapon is just too awesome. Makes me think of Naruto and the Windmill shuriken (which is how I prefer to imagine it).
True but that would require several more feats, and require you to actually make the attacks against multiple enemies (which isn't good since focusing damage on a single opponent is usually better) because of how the feats function (unless I misunderstand). He's basically just picked up the feats because they are a flat damage increase like weapon spec.
My last post was a general post and not a critique of Deighton Thrane analysis.
Multiple enemies: Yes, you would need to attack multiple foes. However, it's a standard action attack that allows you to front load the first attack, allows you multiple attacks earlier than BAB and keeps full attack bonuses. Since you use full attack bonuses, you don't need to boost your dex as high. In fact, you could go full on strength and pick up a bigger weapon like a spear. Instead of Rapid Shot, take Two-Handed Thrower for 1.5 strength damage.
Instead of the belt he used, take a Greater Belt of Mighty Hurling. That's Strength modifier to attack rolls, +10-foot bonus to range and returning [so no need for Ricochet toss]. This also allows you to switch hit to melee and the bonuses from Startoss still add.
I'll grant that it's less damage to one target but the other hits are MUCH more reliable and leaves you with a move action to use. Hitting multiple targets can also be a boon if you have an enchant like Distracting, Limning, Miserable, Burning, Disruption, Legbreaker, Negating and Phase Locking where multiple hits on the same target don't matter.
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Here's an interesting thought. We've all been assuming fighter is the best class for this, because of how many feats you need.
But someone else mentioned brawlers in another thread, so I looked it up. If you include their martial flexibility, which lets you take combat feats on the fly that you don't have trained, they have the same number of feats at most levels as fighters. And that's not counting the bonus feats that don't affects this build, so the brawler actually has the equivalent of more feats, when they can use those MF feats. But the MF stuff isn't always active, and needs a move action to activate (usually), so it does slow things down a little bit.
But a thrown weapon brawler could make for an interesting and versatile build. Put all your trained feats into the thrown weapon feats we've been discussing here, but stick to the "must have" feats. Then add the optional feats as you need them. ie Only take Distance Thrower or Far Shot when throwing a longer shot, but take Deadly Aim or the Startoss Style feats when you just want more damage.
And you can use those MF feats to pick up things like Power Attack if you're ever on the front line, using your fists and feet to flurry. Or you can flurry with a monk weapon, using the Quick Draw that you'll have anyway to draw it as necessary. Or pick up Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple with MF to wrap up an enemy.
I'll have to look at this later to come up with a specific build, and decide if I like this idea. Theoretically, it sounds good, and it goes well personality wise with the Kurgess worship, but the limited uses per day of Martial Flexibility could be an issue. I think it would work out to only having that many feats at once in roughly 3 combats per day, which will sometimes be enough, but means I'll be a little weaker in certain mook fights while conserving uses. And again, the move action to activate will slow things down a little in the first round of combat.
I think the lack of access to Advanced Weapon Training, specifically Trained Throw would be the biggest problem to a brawler build.
Such a build wont have much static damage modifiers by comparison.
But you could use a wushu dart, apply Close Weapon Mastery, and flurry with the weapon as well. It could definitely make for an interesting build.
I would be interested to see one built. The only thing that could make it risky is depending on how many combats you have each day, activating each feat uses up a use of Martial Flexibility. At level 20 you only end up with 13 total uses of Martial Flexibility. If you wanted to activate 4 feats, you could only do so 3 times using up 12 or your 13 uses. If you have only 2 or 3 combats a day it would be alright, but if you have 4 or more per day it could be a problem.
What is the special material? Since your throwing weapons, and will presumably have ricochet toss and clustered shots you don't really need special materials to bypass DR.
Beyond that, improvised thrown weapons will probably have a worse range increment and just all around be worse. Unless there is something I'm forgetting.
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For an improvised throwing weapon, grab the Throw Anything feat. It's an extra feat, but otherwise, the rest of the advice in this thread applies.
So I came up with possible feat chains for a fighter vs brawler comparison. Bear in mind, this is for PFS, so I only went up to level 12.
There are a few things where the exact order may vary, as I see how he plays. ie See how often I miss to decide if I need Greater Weapon Focus, see how often I'm missing at 30+ ft range to decide if Distance Thrower or Far Shot would help, etc.
Here's what I came up with:
Fighter:
1 - Point Blank Shot
1H - Precise Shot
1F - Quick Draw
2F - Rapid Shot
3 - Weapon Focus
4F - Startoss Style
5 - Startoss Comet
6F - Ricochet Toss
7 - Startoss Shower
8F - Greater Weapon Focus
9 - Weapon Specialization
9 (not feat) - Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Throw
10F - Advanced Weapon Training: Focused Weapon
11 - Improved Precise Shot
12F - Clustered Shots
Insert Distance Thrower or Far Shot any time at level 4+, if I seem to need it frequently. Also, maybe toss in Clustered Shots as early as level 7.
Brawler:
1 - Point Blank Shot
1H - Precise Shot
1B - Improved Unarmed Strike
2B - Quick Draw
3 - Rapid Shot
5 - Weapon Focus
5B - Startoss Style
7 - Ricochet Toss
8B - Startoss Comet
9 - Startoss Shower
11 - Improved Precise Shot
11B - Greater Weapon Focus
Martial Flexibility bonus feats:
Melee:
Power Attack, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, other misc melee as needed
While throwing:
Always an option: Distance Thrower and/or Far Shot as needed
Always an option: Just grab upcoming feat(s) on advancement track as needed
2: Usually Rapid Shot
4+: Weapon Specialization is an option
6+: Clustered Shots is an option
8+: Greater Weapon Focus is an option
In the end, the brawler is always going to be a little behind the fighter on thrown weapons. With Martial Flexibility, they should almost always have the same basic feats as the fighter, but only in ~3 fights per day, and it'll take a move action to activate those bonus feats until level 12. And the lack of Weapon Training and Advanced Weapon Training will also put the brawler a little behind. So as expected, the fighter is slightly better at throwing.
However, the brawler just about makes up for it with flexibility. For instance, with the fighter, I have to decide if I want to slow the rest of my feat progression to insert Distance Thrower early, or take Clustered Shots as early as level 7. With the brawler, I can safely skip them in my feat chain, and just use Martial Flexibility to grab them when the situation comes up.
And obviously, the brawler is better in melee. He won't have enough strength to be a melee beast (I'm thinking 19 dex, 14 str to start), but with Improved Unarmed Strike, Brawler's Flurry, full BAB, and the minor stuff like AC and maneuver bonuses, he can probably do OK. I keep thinking grappling might be an option, but I don't know if I'll have the strength for it, even with the maneuver bonus. Though there's a feat I could pick up with Martial Flexibility to use dex instead of str on CMB, so that might be worthwhile when I hit the level of being able to grab that and Improved Grapple at the same time (level 6).
The brawler is also clearly better for skills, both because they get 4 ranks per level, and because they have more class skills.
Part of me wants to play the fighter, just to see just how much damage I can do as a javelin throwing one trick pony. But part of me likes the flexibility of the brawler, even though it won't be quite as good with the javelins.