Well, you're going to have to take about 3 feats to use them. Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Two Weapon Fighting, which will give you -4 to hit with each weapon, unless you take Weapon Focus which will reduce the penalty to -3/-3 per weapon.
T'were me, I'd go with the Estoc with improved critical. Partly because of the increase crit range and the fact that hardly anyone uses it.
I could be out of the ballpark here, and folks will be happy to point that out. But that's my take on it.
Weapon Focus would need to be taken twice, once for each weapon. Four feats to get to -3/-3. :(
Weapon Focus would need to be taken twice, once for each weapon. Four feats to get to -3/-3. :(
I thought it applied to the same weapon if you used two of them, but had to be taken twice if you used say both an Estoc AND a Falchion. Maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years. If I changed it now my players would lynch me.
EDIT: Never mind. I misread your post.
Weapon Focus would need to be taken twice, once for each weapon. Four feats to get to -3/-3.:(
Only if (s)he's using an Estoc and a Falcata. Weapon focus counts for any and all weapons of it's type.
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Edit: Ninja'd. DungeonMasterCal don't worry you got it right, your players won't lynch you.
Keen or Improved Critical bumps it up to 15-20/x2, whilst with the Falcata it's bumped to 17-20/x3.
Also just to put your mind at ease, yes that's how Keen/Improved Critical work.
As you mentioned that you're new, I'm gonna explain the problem with using two Estoc or Falcata with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
According to the table of the feat Two-Weapon Fighting, we know that:
Normally, fighting with two One-Handed weapons will incur a penalty of -6 to your "Primary hand" weapon, and a penalty of -10 to your "Off-hand" weapon.
Normally, fighting with either two Simple weapons or a One-Handed weapon with a Light weapon in your "Off-Hand" will incur a penalty of -4 to your "Primary hand" weapon and a penalty of -8 to your "Off-hand" weapon.
What the feat Two-Weapon Fighting does is lowering the penalty to your two weapons by 2 (for your Primary Hand) and 6 (for your Off-hand).
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So if you are fighting with two Falcatas/Estocs, you would normally have the pentalty of -6/-10, but with Two Weapon Fighting the penalty becomes -4/-4.
If you instead fight with a Falcata/Estoc in your "Primary Hand" and a Light weapon in the "Off-hand", then the penalty would normally be -4/-8, but with Two-Weapon Fighting it becomes -2/-2.
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You have to decide if the single extra attack you are getting with your "Off-hand" is worth taking a -4 penalty to both/all your attacks in a Full-Attack.
If you have a good chance to hit your target already, as in a high strength score, Full BAB class and buffing allies, then that penalty to hit is workable.
Using two Falcatas/Estocs is certainly more attractive at higher levels, but not so much at lower levels.
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Oh, and you only add half of your Strength score as damage to the "Off-hand", while the "Primary Hand" gains your Strength score.
If you hold your Falcata/Estoc with both hands, then you add 1.5x your Strength score to damage instead of just 1x.
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The reason as to why I am using quotation marks for "Primary Hand" and "Off-hand" is because you don't differentiate between hands unless you wield two weapons. That is, you can appoint whatever hand you like as the Primary Hand.
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Normally, fighting with either two Simple weapons or a One-Handed weapon with a
SimpleLight weapon in your "Off-Hand" will incur a penalty of -4 to your "Primary hand" weapon and a penalty of -8 to your "Off-hand" weapon.
Light weapons help with TWF penalties, not Simple weapons.
I would go with the falcatas just because dual-wielding estocs would be silly in terms of how the weapon actually works (it has no cutting edge, it's just for poking, so it's difficult to imagine how someone would 2WF with it without looking ridiculous.)
Light weapons help with TWF penalties, not Simple weapons.Normally, fighting with either two Simple weapons or a One-Handed weapon with a
SimpleLight weapon in your "Off-Hand" will incur a penalty of -4 to your "Primary hand" weapon and a penalty of -8 to your "Off-hand" weapon.
Ugh, thanks for the catch.
Thank you all for the helpful responses, I think I'll consider say an Estoc/Kukri combo for earlier levels and figure out the logistics of using heavier off-hand weapons when I have a good BAB.
But uh, on a more subjective note, how do 2-weapon Fighters compare to say sword and shield or 2-hander Fighters? I like the concept I have, but I don't want to end up being dead weight when a tough fight comes along.
Well, I can say that most "sword and shield" dudes actually also go with Two Weapon Fighting (TWF). They just pick up a feat to not lose their AC bonus from the shield while bashing people's heads in.
As for 2-hander fighters... I wouldn't worry so much.
TWF does have some problems 2-handers don't, like having to use feats on the TWF-feat path and spending gold on two weapons instead of one, but the damage is pretty much the same, with TWF being a bit lower.
If you pick up an effortless lace (relatively cheap magic item) you can dual-wield those weapons without the added penalties.
Interesting. It's amazing what one misses when one can't afford to buy all the new stuff that comes out. Thanks for pointing that one out.
If you pick up an effortless lace (relatively cheap magic item) you can dual-wield those weapons without the added penalties.Interesting. It's amazing what one misses when one can't afford to buy all the new stuff that comes out. Thanks for pointing that one out.
For the record, Effortless Lace doesn't remove all the penalties, it just lets you count one of your weapons as a light weapon. Thus putting one on your "offhand" weapon would reduce the duel-wielding penalties from -4/-4 to -2/-2.
As soon as you have the gold for it (2500gp) this is almost certainly a better option than having a different light weapon in your offhand, as you really want any combat feats to effect all the weapons you're wielding (weapon focus, improved critical etc).
A few things.
1) Effortless Lace is a stupid cheesy broken item and will likely be banned by most GMs (it is banned in PFS)
2) Sword and Shield fighters do almost always TWF with spiked shields. Generally these are either rangers or fighters due to the feat intensity of the build.
3) Duel wielding Wakasashi grants the same crit range as the Estoc, a better damage type(P/S) and is a light weapon. It will do less damage on average than an Estoc per hit.
4) Consider playing a Tengu which can get a lot of these sword proficiencies for free
5) There are some monks that can flurry with non monk weapons. If you want a tons of attacks build, but do not want to purchase two weapons it may be worth exploring.
As someone already noted on here, TWF requires a Full Action, short of a couple of exceptions. What that means is you cannot move 10 feet and use both your weapons in one round. If you can stand still or stick to a 5 foot step, congratulations. You get all your swings.
Exceptions:
One: in the Unchained Action Economy, you can get added shots in much sooner. Your GM needs to be using this version of the action economy from Pathfinder Unchained.
Two: in the Weapon Masters Handbook, you can take Dual Strike, at level 11, after having taken Two Weapon Fighting, Double-Slice, Vital Strike, and Improved Vital Strike.
You want kukris. That is the best dual-wielding option for a TWF with martial proficiencies.
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A few things.
1) Effortless Lace is a stupid cheesy broken item and will likely be banned by most GMs (it is banned in PFS)
2) Sword and Shield fighters do almost always TWF with spiked shields. Generally these are either rangers or fighters due to the feat intensity of the build.
3) Duel wielding Wakasashi grants the same crit range as the Estoc, a better damage type(P/S) and is a light weapon. It will do less damage on average than an Estoc per hit.
4) Consider playing a Tengu which can get a lot of these sword proficiencies for free
5) There are some monks that can flurry with non monk weapons. If you want a tons of attacks build, but do not want to purchase two weapons it may be worth exploring.
No, the effortless lace is not cheesy, nor is it broken.
"Oh no! He's two-weapon fighting for 2 more points of average damage! Whatever will I do?!"
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I'll add another vote to the kukris. The added damage from using one handed weapons isn't worth the penalty to hit, or having to take feats twice for a one handed and a light weapon. If you can get proficiency with wakizashis, they are a better weapon than kukris, but on average will only do 1 more damage on a hit, which is kind of weak for the cost of a feat.
And Effortless Lace is a good option if your GM reads the ability a specific way. The way it's worded though doesn't guarantee you can use it with 2 weapon fighting. Effortless lace allows you to treat a one handed weapon of your size as a light weapon for weapon finesse, as well as any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons. Now, the two weapon fighting feat benefit doesn't reference weapon size at all. It simply reduces penalties for using the two weapon fighting rules. The two weapon fighting rules reference weapon size, but the feat does not, so it likely still counts as a one handed weapon while two weapon fighting. Your GM might read it differently.
The trade-off between TWF with dual kukris and TWF with dual estoc/falcata isn't actually half as bad as it seems, since you're losing -2 attack to gain +3 damage if estoc, or +2 damage and improved critical situation if falcata. It's virtually identical to taking Power Attack -2 to gain +4/+2 with TWF - useful if the build has a really strong attack, but not a good idea otherwise. Dual falcata is great thematically, and is *the* brutal combo for crit power. Wielding a larger weapon in at least one hand is also a lot better for all those single attacks that pay no penalty and only strike once.
The ability to treat a weapon as light for TWF with Effortless Lace was apparently the 'official' intent, even if it's really dubious grammar.
The trade-off between TWF with dual kukris and TWF with dual estoc/falcata isn't actually half as bad as it seems, since you're losing -2 attack to gain +3 damage if estoc, or +2 damage and improved critical situation if falcata. It's virtually identical to taking Power Attack -2 to gain +4/+2 with TWF - useful if the build has a really strong attack, but not a good idea otherwise. Dual falcata is great thematically, and is *the* brutal combo for crit power. Wielding a larger weapon in at least one hand is also a lot better for all those single attacks that pay no penalty and only strike once.
The ability to treat a weapon as light for TWF with Effortless Lace was apparently the 'official' intent, even if it's really dubious grammar.
Not really. It is literally half of that.
When doing TWF power attacks, you technically get the same amount of power attack as a 2 hander: 1.5x=1.0x+0.5x. Just that it is spread out and more easily taken care of by DR.
So that is -2 for 3, rather than -1 for 3 or -2 for 6. And of course, this stacks with all other penalties, obviously. And power attack is staggered over your career, while bad TWF is there from the get go.
There are better ways to get that +3 damage. Heck- get sacred weapon damage dice from fighter or warpriest. Then you could get up to 2d8s without losing anything.
The trade-off between TWF with dual kukris and TWF with dual estoc/falcata isn't actually half as bad as it seems, since you're losing -2 attack to gain +3 damage if estoc, or +2 damage and improved critical situation if falcata. It's virtually identical to taking Power Attack -2 to gain +4/+2 with TWF - useful if the build has a really strong attack, but not a good idea otherwise. Dual falcata is great thematically, and is *the* brutal combo for crit power. Wielding a larger weapon in at least one hand is also a lot better for all those single attacks that pay no penalty and only strike once.
The ability to treat a weapon as light for TWF with Effortless Lace was apparently the 'official' intent, even if it's really dubious grammar.
Not really. It is literally half of that.
When doing TWF power attacks, you technically get the same amount of power attack as a 2 hander: 1.5x=1.0x+0.5x. Just that it is spread out and more easily taken care of by DR.
So that is -2 for 3, rather than -1 for 3 or -2 for 6. And of course, this stacks with all other penalties, obviously. And power attack is staggered over your career, while bad TWF is there from the get go.
There are better ways to get that +3 damage. Heck- get sacred weapon damage dice from fighter or warpriest. Then you could get up to 2d8s without losing anything.
You're confusing a hypothetical "total bonus" of Power Attack spread over two weapons with the bonus a better weapon die gives to every attack.
Total Power Attack Bonus -2 with two 2-handed attacks: +12.
Total Power Attack Bonus -2 with two main and two offhand attacks: +12.
Using a weapon with +3 average damage die with 2x main and 2x offhand attacks: +12.
Whether or not someone would want to take very specific build and class choices to achieve the same effect isn't really relevant to comparing the two in general. I'm just trying to point out that if someone wants to build something like a dual-estoc Ranger, it's not the statistical disaster it's often made out to be when people just see "-4" out of context. Wielding a light offhand during early levels is probably a good idea; if going split-weapon before weapon feats make it an issue, the fact that all mainhand and single attacks are much more damaging is very useful.
THF (Two-Handed-Fighting) is an easy offensive style. It basically only needs Power Attack to work properly. Grab a Greataxe and lob off heads.
Sword & Board (one weapon in mainhand, shield for defensive AC-bonus) is also an easy defensive style. Needs no feats to work.
TWF is the most difficult and feat-intensive general style. Normally it is done with 2 weapons of the same type, due to how weaponskill enhancing feats work (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specalisation, Improved Critical, ...).
And then there is TWF with Sword and Board. It needs exceptionally many feats, but combines the best of two worlds. Can only be properly done by some Full-BAB classes with bonus feats and a full focus of all you abilities dedicated to this combatstyle.
[edit: a call out for a mistake that is now embarassing to have rewritten...so omitted]
Whoops, brain fart.
Still, some of the points still stand- you face larger penalties early on, which can be a major pain. And there are still better ways to get good damage dice for kukri than to go with estocs.
A few things.
1) Effortless Lace is a stupid cheesy broken item and will likely be banned by most GMs (it is banned in PFS)
Most people I know would have no problem with it on or off these boards.
Cheese is subjective, and it's not like TWF'er don't have enough to deal with by taking many extra feats and spending more gold.
An estoc is a specialized and somewhat unwieldy weapon. I just can't see it for two weapon fighting. Nothing to do with the numbers, it just doesn't make sense to me.
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An estoc is a specialized and somewhat unwieldy weapon. I just can't see it for two weapon fighting. Nothing to do with the numbers, it just doesn't make sense to me.
And that's fair, but the rules allow for it. That's what all those penalties are meant to convey (-4/-4 instead of -2/-2 for having a better-designed weapon). Adding magic to the mix (via Effortless Lace) is what makes it work, and once you add magic to the equation conventional understanding kinda goes out the window.
It's still vastly easier to imagine two-weapon fighting with two weapons that allow slashing (or one slashing weapon to go with one piercing weapon) than with two weapons that are used exclusively by thrusting.
The rules allow it, but "two weapon fighting with estocs" is going to come across as silly unless you imagine the estoc not working like it actually does. It's pretty much the same conceptual problem as "two-weapon fighting with rapiers" except that rapiers are less unwieldy (they're lighter and better balanced.) You're not going to thrust with your main hand and then thrust with your off-hand; I'm not even sure what the footwork for that would look like.
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No, the effortless lace is not cheesy, nor is it broken.
"Oh no! He's two-weapon fighting for 2 more points of average damage! Whatever will I do?!"
That said, the perception of it being "cheesy and broken" does exist (partially *because* it is banned in PFS, regardless of the reliability or otherwise of that metric) so expect table variance.
That's some really good advice, Kazaan.
Be a Deliver Slayer of Achaekek. Dual wield Sawtooth Sabres. They get treated as light weapons for two weapon fighting. Slayer Combat Style lets you ignore some of the Dex requirements for the two weapon fighting feats.
Still, some of the points still stand- you face larger penalties early on, which can be a major pain. And there are still better ways to get good damage dice for kukri than to go with estocs.
Yeah, dual estoc isn't ideal either mechanically or aesthetically. Going all turn/spin/thrust/parry with dual "case of rapiers" like an Italian School fencing master is pretty badass, but doing it with blades that are four feet long is a bit... improbable.
Falcata, Sawtooth Scimitar or Wakazashi are the obvious best options, since they all end up around the same average damage depending on crits and AC. And of course, there's dual Fencing Grace rapier for dex-to-damage TWF, which may make the -4 worth it if it means going pure dexterity without needing Agile weapons.
Niten-ryu, two weapon fighting in the style devised by Miyamoto Musashi, author of The Book of Five Rings, uses the daisho (long-short), i.e., katana and wakizashi.
So glad the Estoc is finally part of Pathfinder. One of the most intriguing and unique sword designs, IMO. I think they did it justice--unlike the Falchion, which is not a larger scimitar but the famous archer's sword of Agincourt.
Musashi adapted to his opponent, at least if the stories are to be believed. His fighting style could change from duel-to-duel,as often as he fought.
The thing that bugs me about the Pathfinder estoc is that historically, it was used either mounted or on-foot with a half-sword or a two handed grip (as it was much more practical to use it that way than in a single hand). After all, it's a 4' long quite heavy and almost completely rigid sword with no edge designed for punching through the weaker points of armor with aimed thrusts. Using the actual weapon in a single hand is somewhat impractical in most contexts.