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So I love the flavor of the Kineticist, but I'm having trouble justifying playing one for several reasons. Here they are:
A) To hit bonuses. Even a fighter or a barbarian can start missing unless they keep their sword enchantment up. As far as I can tell, NOTHING increases the to-hit of a Kineticist. Not too bad for Energy Kineticist as touch AC rarely goes up, but a HUGE problem for physical Kineticist. The only way I can think of to boost their to-hit is with extra dex and the weapon focus feat.
B) Energy Resist/immunity. So there are several problems with the energy Kineticists 1, I don't like people being straight up immune to my damage (I've seen this a number of times, like a cold Kineticist vs skeletons, or a Negative void Kineticist vs. ANY undead.) AND 2) SR/golems basically bones over any energy Kineticist.
C) DR There are also a number of problems with physical Kineticist, such as 1) Unless you are an Earth Kineticist with the rare-earth infusion, there is NO way to get past DR. You can't enchant your blasts to be +3/+4 weapons, so you can't overcome DR, and you can NEVER overcome DR/(alignment), this can become a HUGE problem in later levels where creatures can have up to DR 15/(whatevs) Only way around this that I know of is to be an aether Kineticist and keep some weapons around that you can use.
Has anyone played a Kineticist at high levels? Do these issues really come up, or am I just overthinking things? Any suggestions?
I'd like to play a Kineticist, but I can't find a way around these problems that seem like deal-breakers for me.
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A) Elemental Overflow is the to-hit bonus for the Kineticist; in addition to the static accuracy bonus the size bonus can be applied to your dexterity for further to-hit bonuses. You should basically always have Elemental Overflow active for the entire day.
B and C) These are two sides of the same problem, and yes they are problems the Kineticist has though they're not as serious as they seem. Energy Resistance is a big problem in the early game, which is why I like to start with a physical blast, but the name of the game is diversification; having both a physical and elemental blast is a huge help to ensure you can always target the enemy's weakest defense.
While I haven't played a high level Kineticist, I can do my best to answer a few.
A) Kineticists have two ways in their class to increase their to-hit: the flat bonus from elemental overflow and the ability score increases from elemental overflow. When all you nee is Dex and Con, EO is a great boon. Weapon Focus and Point Blank shot work as well.
B) I agree. This is just terrible and there should have been something for Kineticists that wanted to deal only energy damage of the same type. But if immunity worries you, expand into something different for more damage types. When dealing with Golems and other SR creatures, physical blasts are key.
C) Same as B. Expand into another damage type.
The only pures that don't get both a physical and elemental blast are fire and earth, both of which get unique talents to get around that (earth gets rare-metal infusion, fire gets pure-flame infusion). There's also Draining Infusion to help get around elementals and dragons.
But as he pointed out, Immunity and DR / Alignment are bad for those elements. This is why I suggest expanding, that and the nice versatility you can get.
The to-hit boost for a kineticist is "not making iterative attacks".
Earth Blast:
attack +15 (+7 BAB, +4 Dex, +3 Elemental Overflow, +1 Weapon Focus)damage 5d6+19 (5d6+5 base, +8 Con, +6 Elemental Overflow)
I really like the flavor of the Kineticist. The only thing that bothers me is that, at this point, you enter combat with (at least) 30 hp of burn damage.
Depending on your elemen(Water, Earth, or Aether) or combat style(ranged or ranged flying) that 30 might not be so bad. You can really cover your bases in even low wealth games as a Kineticist.
I really like the flavor of the Kineticist. The only thing that bothers me is that, at this point, you enter combat with (at least) 30 hp of burn damage.Earth Blast:
attack +15 (+7 BAB, +4 Dex, +3 Elemental Overflow, +1 Weapon Focus)damage 5d6+19 (5d6+5 base, +8 Con, +6 Elemental Overflow)
Honestly it's not that bad when your health total is 144 or higher. ;)
The to-hit bonus isn't much of a problem, since you're only making 1 attack most of the time, anyway. It would only matter if you needed to make iterative attacks.
Enery Resistance is annoying, but most kineticists have an alternate blast that deals physical damage. DR doesn't hurt you that much because you're making one big strike all the time... Again, it would only really hurt you if you had to make multiple strikes (even DR 15/- isn't that much of a problem when your damage roll is something like 7d6 + 7 + Con modifier).
Kineticists have their fair share of problems and poor design choices, but the ones you mentiined are usually not among them.
Honestly it's not that bad when your health total is 144 or higher. ;)I really like the flavor of the Kineticist. The only thing that bothers me is that, at this point, you enter combat with (at least) 30 hp of burn damage.Earth Blast:
attack +15 (+7 BAB, +4 Dex, +3 Elemental Overflow, +1 Weapon Focus)damage 5d6+19 (5d6+5 base, +8 Con, +6 Elemental Overflow)
My Geokineticist is one of the most survivable characters I've ever fielded, really. She doesn't get hit very often and when she does it doesn't hurt.
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A. As others note, there are two things about this. Elemental Overflow gives a to-hit bonus, and you don't need to make iterative attacks. Both help a lot.
B. Energy Resistance can be overcome. Immunity is bad, though. Most builds have something they can do that isn't damage (Water can do Grease, Fire can Dispel Magic and strip buffs, etc.) but to be entirely honest, an energy focused Kineticist may not be for you if you're not willing to deal with this. Go Air, Earth, Water, or Aether and start with a non-energy blast at 1st.
C. This one's more solvable: Think of all Kineticists as getting Clustered Shots for free. Making a single hefty attack does a lot to make DR less of an issue. I mean, it's never gonna not be a little annoying (well, only Alignment DR never stops being annoying for a dedicated geokineticist) but it's not a huge deal. Also, DR is uncommon before 7th when you get your second Element. Just make sure to grab an Energy Blast to go with your physical one (or double down on Earth) and you've got options.
So, short version: These aren't as large of problems as you'd think. Take a physical blast at 1st and pick your second element option intelligently at 7th and you're not likely to actually run into these problems all too much.
"Kineticists have their fair share of problems and poor design choices, but the ones you mentiined are usually not among them."
Really, I thought Kineticists looked quite solid. What are the bad parts, utility? The burn looks manageable for a class that is heavily focused on constitution.
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Least you forget that many of the Kineticists abilities make TOUCH attacks, so the attack bonuses are not nearly as worrysome as it might seem. And easy to overcome with aforementioned Elemental Overflow and a few select feats.
Personally, its one of my favorite classes- but it can get a little 'one-trick pony'ish.
A) You can also become best friends with a bard. But yeah, Elemental Overflow. At low levels, you won't be using Extended Range as much, so Point Blank Shot works as well. There are a few items that give flat bonuses on all attack rolls (generally luck or competence bonuses), so you can grab those at high levels.
B) Fire can burn through resistances, and almost anything except devils that are immune have the fire subtype. I hate SR, though, so I'd go with Aether/Air/Water/Earth/Gravity if you find it's a nuisance.
C) At low levels, Aether and Earth get to deal any damage type. All blasts count as magic, so you get by almost all DR that can be bypassed at that level. Sure, you're doing a little less damage against cold iron, but it's no biggie. From 5th on, you dish out enough damage in one hit that DR isn't too bad. At 7th, go Earth/Earth, and your composite will wreck anybody's DR with sheer damage, or pick Void to have an energy option for any living creature. Since undead DR is generally a physical type, Aether and Earth both get to bypass it.
So I love the flavor of the Kineticist, but I'm having trouble justifying playing one for several reasons. Here they are:
A) To hit bonuses. Even a fighter or a barbarian can start missing unless they keep their sword enchantment up. As far as I can tell, NOTHING increases the to-hit of a Kineticist. Not too bad for Energy Kineticist as touch AC rarely goes up, but a HUGE problem for physical Kineticist. The only way I can think of to boost their to-hit is with extra dex and the weapon focus feat.
As everyone else pointed out, Elemental Overflow covers this in two ways. First, a stacking +1 every 3 levels per point of Burn you have accumulated. Second, you can use Elemental Overflow's size bonuses to increase your Dex on top of what you would get from a belt and Wish. Also, make use of your utility talents. Air gets Haste (+1 to attack). Aether gets free, at-will Invisibility (enemies who can't see you get no Dex bonus to AC). With Elemental Overflow, you stay on par with the to-hit of all other 3/4 BAB classes. Except the Rogue. That guy gets the shaft pretty hard.
B) Energy Resist/immunity. So there are several problems with the energy Kineticists 1, I don't like people being straight up immune to my damage (I've seen this a number of times, like a cold Kineticist vs skeletons, or a Negative void Kineticist vs. ANY undead.) AND 2) SR/golems basically bones over any energy Kineticist.
Stay pure to your element or expand when you can. And there's absolutely no reason not to have an actual physical weapon for when this scenario comes up. You still have your size bonuses to Dex, Con and Str that can be useful, plus your Elemental Defense talent. Pure Water gets a physical composite blast that does cold and bludgeoning damage. Pure Aether gets to deal Force damage at 7th level. Nothing in the game resists or is immune to Force damage. Golems, well, you have that backup weapon for a reason. Pack a bow. Our you could pick up Improved Unarmed Strike and take Kinetic Fist for your element to damage with a physical weapon. It's not pretty, but it works and bypasses SR.
C) DR There are also a number of problems with physical Kineticist, such as 1) Unless you are an Earth Kineticist with the rare-earth infusion, there is NO way to get past DR. You can't enchant your blasts to be +3/+4 weapons, so you can't overcome DR, and you can NEVER overcome DR/(alignment), this can become a HUGE problem in later levels where creatures can have up to DR 15/(whatevs) Only way around this that I know of is to be an aether Kineticist and keep some weapons around that you can use.
Rare-Earth Infusion overcomes any and every metal-based DR available. If you expand your element, you can bypass DR completely by taking an energy option. If you're a TK, you get Force damage as a huge option for this. Also, enchanting ammo is cheap, so you could TK Blast some +4 ammo if you want.
Has anyone played a Kineticist at high levels? Do these issues really come up, or am I just overthinking things? Any suggestions?
I'd like to play a Kineticist, but I can't find a way around these problems that seem like deal-breakers for me.
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Well, I looked at it a bit more, and I guess I can see how it works, theoretically. Thanks for all the responses.
I was really worried that the Damage from burn would outpace the hitpoints you gain, but running the math, it looks like it isn't too bad. Sure, you can't upfront tank with that much burn, but you work out to be roughly on par with a cleric who hasn't speced hitpoints when you are maxing your elemental overflow from burn.
The one thing that disappoints me is that I really wanted to play a void kineticist, but there is so little support for them that it is pretty sad. The only lvl 1 utility talent is Void healer (so you can heal undead . . . woooo) or the universal 'Skilled Keneticist' (which is stupid, because there are no 'negative-Energy Elementals.' so it is a very poor choice.) The only lvl 3 infusion is Darkness, which sucks because I won't have darkvision, or 'extreme range' universal . . . which I guess works.
I just had the idea of playing a punk emo kid with darkness powers, and he wrote bad poetry in his journal about how tortured he was. It would be hilarious.
The one thing that disappoints me is that I really wanted to play a void kineticist, but there is so little support for them that it is pretty sad. The only lvl 1 utility talent is Void healer (so you can heal undead . . . woooo) or the universal 'Skilled Keneticist' (which is stupid, because there are no 'negative-Energy Elementals.' so it is a very poor choice.) The only lvl 3 infusion is Darkness, which sucks because I won't have darkvision, or 'extreme range' universal . . . which I guess works.
This problem is actually solved by 10th, you can pick up a different element's 1st level talent in your 1st level slot via the replacement. Up till then, yea it sucks.
12 dex is awful for a kineticist. Since elemental overflow into your defensive talent is sensible to trade 1 point of burn for +1 to hit, then it's worth pumping your dex as high as your con. I mean, the basic Kineticist is a class which has virtually no use for strength (even kinetic whip builds are going to want weapon finesse) or charisma, and only really wants modest investment in wisdom and intelligence so there's no real reason not to keep your dex and your con about the same.
I played a water kineticist (single element, with a 1-level dip into brawler so he could make better use of kinetic fist) up to 15th level. He worked pretty well, and could pull some neat tricks in addition to his damage (knocking people over, entangling them, staggering, etc.).
As noted above, infusion specialization and gather power can take care of most of the burn costs, especially at higher levels. At level 6, you also get an internal buffer that you can add points to so you can pay those instead of accepting burn (starts off only being able to hold one, but grows at higher levels). My kineticist actually didn't end up taking burn damage all that often because of all this. Elemental overflow provides some nice benefits if you do take burn, though.
Kineticists also get the ability to empower (5th), maximize (9th) and quicken (13th) their blasts by paying some burn. Also, keep in mind that your blasts' damage dice will grow as you level up. It scales pretty well, in my opinion.
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Just wait until your Paladin hits level 6 and the Kineticist is still rocking 3d6+3+Con all in one shot, while the Paladin is hitting twice for 2d6+9+Smite. The only reason your Kineticist player is having a good time of it now is because the levels are low and +1 doesn't make that big a difference right now.
Start adding in creatures that have DR/cold iron, DR/silver, or even DR/good, and your Paladin will start shining a whole lot more.
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Kineticist is just about the worst Paizo class printed, short of NPC classes, and even then the Adept gets spells.
...what?
Kineticist is just about the worst Paizo class printed, short of NPC classes, and even then the Adept gets spells.
Which is kinda funny, given the absolutely massive amount of feedback that the Kineticist playtest had. Seems a bit odd to have a playtest, have people give a huge amount of well-written proofs about how a class performs, have them give suggestions on how to fix it, and then have it still turn out to be trash.
But hey, at least that Psychic got buffs, right?
....You do realize kineticist got a big power boost between Playtest and Print right?
I'm go to let people better versed in doing so tell you just why that is not true.
Though they have most of the best skills in the game.
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You do realize that the entire class is still a steaming-hot pile of garbage, right? "Buff" or not, the entire burn mechanic is 100% awful.
That's a nice, totally "objective" opinion you've got there.
My subjective take: I've got an earth/fire kineticist I've taken from 1 to 12 so far, under a tough, not particularly forgiving DM, and I'm doing fine.
But, yanno, YMMV.
Kineticist loses out at any combat to a any 3/4 BaB character that just takes archery feats as it levels.
It's burst potential is extremely low, and even then it has to practically kill itself in order to do burst damage. It also has to do the same if it wants to inflict conditions on enemies, use utility abilities, or really do just about anyting.
The utility abilities that it gets are lackluster at best, and those that are decent still require an extremely high cost for what you get.
It's a class that lacks legitimate damage, utility, skills, durability, and really anything worthwhile. Any caster, literally any caster, outdoes it by a huge margin. Hell, most martial classes can outdo it at most things, and any of the partial casters still laugh at it.
Hey, I kind of like my at-will flight at level six, especially combined with a free miss chance vs. projectiles and 240ft. attack range. Hitpoints are good even after three points of burn (last one is negated by a size increase to Con and it grants +2 Dex), and damage is as much as I do on anything outside of a rage class. I took every feat I'll ever need for my build at level one as a human, leaving me with room for stuff like VMC.
Oh, don't misunderstand, burn is awful. It's literally the only class feature that gets worse no matter what classes you take.
However, it is also the life blood of the class. So much so that Overwhelming Soul, an archetype that gets rid of burn entirely, is nearly universally viewed as terrible. You can reduce it or use it and actually become stronger because you did.
See, this is one of the reasons I play the Aether Kinetist.
Telekinetic Blast is extremely useful and very versatile.
1) You can throw the item and do your blast damage to both the target and whatever you threw. Sure it sucks dealing damage to your own weapons.. Collect whatever you find.
2) You can throw the item and do its damage, using your con in place of strength. If its a weapon you can wield in one hand and are prof with, you can hurl it at the enemy doing everything just like you used the weapon. Or you can use improvised weapons. You could throw a monster's natural weapons to overcome damage reduction of other like monsters.
Get an adamantine weapon and you might never even deal damage to it because of it's Hardness 20(which even Adamantine doesn't ignore).
You know who else likes those abilities? Any caster with Fly and Blur on their list, because for all serious purposes the duration that they'll have on them may as well make them at-will unless you're doing marathon megadungeons.
Eh, I've never been able to make minute-per-level spells last for a full adventuring day without seriously impacting my ability to contribute to combat. You waste a round or two of combat just casting them generally, and they're eating up your spell known slots and spells per day while you do. Maybe a higher level caster can pull it off, but a Sorcerer at sixth is going to be feeling it if they try to do it.
So "at-will flight" was the wrong thing to say. It's constant flight, which is a lot better. You don't give your location away by casting it, and you don't waste time putting it up during combat.
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You do realize that the entire class is still a steaming-hot pile of garbage, right?
I disagree.
"Buff" or not, the entire burn mechanic is 100% awful.
I personally like the burn mechanic, it's thematically fitting and I know my kineticist player has enjoyed it. Though I do remove the limit on how much burn you can take and leave it up to the player how much health they want to risk.
This is the advice forum. Saying "a class is hot garbage, don't play it" isn't really advice. I mean, if you have nothing nice to say, might as well not say anything. You can say "I don't like the class and I wouldn't play it" but it's a pointless waste of time to try to convince other people to stop liking a class just because you don't like it. If you must argue that it's bad, don't say "it's bad", make an actual substantive case for what it cannot do or doesn't do as well compared to other options. Like what class, other than the kineticist, fulfill the fantasy of the kineticist as well? It's all well and good to say "monks are bad, don't play a monk" but if I want to play as fantasy Gordon Liu, you don't have a lot of other options.
Personally, I really like the Kineticist. I like being able to do things like fly, turn invisible, and levitate massive objects all day whenever I want without having to worry about wasting spell slots. The telekineticist is perhaps the most fun "rogue" I've ever played. While perhaps some people play in games where things like "you can drop a boat, or a statue, or an anvil on someone's head" is never useful, I personally don't. It's a class that benefits a lot from creativity, so it's heartily recommended to people who think Mage Hand or Prestidigitation are some of the best spells on the Wizard list.
Burn doesn't hurt the class that bad since they have a massive pool of HP, especially if the class takes Toughness and puts every FC point into HP. I mean my Kineticist has 60 HP at level 5, so each point of burn is 1/12 of her max HP in terms of cost at the moment.
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Burn doesn't hurt the class that bad since they have a massive pool of HP, especially if the class takes Toughness and puts every FC point into HP. I mean my Kineticist has 60 HP at level 5, so each point of burn is 1/12 of her max HP in terms of cost at the moment.
LOL It's not awful if you throw 21 upgrades into it isn't what I call a good deal... :P
It's like saying a class is good at skills if you put every FCB into skill points and play a human with skilled... :P
Oh, don't misunderstand, burn is awful. It's literally the only class feature that gets worse no matter what classes you take.
However, it is also the life blood of the class. So much so that Overwhelming Soul, an archetype that gets rid of burn entirely, is nearly universally viewed as terrible. You can reduce it or use it and actually become stronger because you did.
I call it underwhelming soul. It's more a version of the class for those without a con score than it is for those that want to play a viable version of the class without burn.
You do realize that the entire class is still a steaming-hot pile of garbage, right? "Buff" or not, the entire burn mechanic is 100% awful.
On the first point I disagree. overall I like the class.
On the second, I wholeheartedly agree. Burn is the worst mechanic ever. Bar none. It's the reason I just can't play the class. The only non-burn alternative removes con so it sidesteps the reason I hate burn by replacing it with a worse mechanic...
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Kineticist is one of the best crafted classes Paizo has printed recently. It fills a fun useful party nitch and doesn't over power pre-existing classes in party rolls, while simultaneously being able to fill multiple rolls depending on how the kineticist is built.
For example a kintecist can by around level 11 be constantly large size (even if your race started small sized) with a constant reach weapon (for 20' reach). Add on combat reflexes and suddenly no one can approach the party without being hit for at least 6d6 + 6. Add on a rider to the attack such as chilling infusion (yes I know you can only do that for a round or two before the burn cost becomes too much, but a round or two is all you need to turn the fight) and suddenly you are a CC fiend. You can do all of this and have a constant fly speed if you want. None of this is OP at level 11, but it is useful and fun.
As an aside: An Elemental Acetic kineticist CAN get away with only having a 12 dex since they add wisdom to AC. But the archetype is very challenging to play well.