I can't bring myself to play a Kineticist for these reasons . . . Am I overthinking things?


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Derek Dalton wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of complaint about Burn. Me I avoided using it as much as possible and did quite well without having to worry about it. Burn is not all that useful when you really look at it which is why I did everything to avoid getting any.

It's good to have enough to activate your elemental overflow. The +2/+4/+6 stat bonuses you gain from it can go to CON and offset the increased amount of burn you've taken while giving you better accuracy (+ to attack AND +DEX) and more damage (+ to damage AND +CON).


Burn and the abilities granted don't make the nonlethal HP drain in my mind worth it. Overwhelming Soul has issues but I'd rather have them then nonlethal damage. Consider this one Critical hit and your character is down when he would have otherwise would have stayed up. The burn damage doesn't heal without the eight hours rest so it's not like the healer can pump you back to full after combat. That is my issue. One good combat you are effectively at half or even lower in HP. Granted you might be a long range blaster avoiding even attempting to get close in combat you still can be hurt. One fireball could ruin your day. Even with abilities and magic there is always a situation where you will get hurt and having less then optimal HP is bad. Especially tough boss battles for lack of a better term.


N. Jolly wrote:
graystone wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
To be fair, while a lot of archetypes are weaker, the ones that people actually use tend to be anywhere between slightly better and hilariously better.
Well I'd say archetypes AND elements. The swing in power between the elements is huge.
Trust me, I REALLY agree. Earth/Aether are amazing, Water/Air are pretty good, Fire/Void are okay...ish, and Wood...is terrible.

I picked water and void to try out as they seems in the middle of the road options, not too good and not too bad. It seemed the best 'test' of the class.

For the most part I agree with your assessment, but I had a oneshot with a wood Kinetsicist and I think it worked better than my void one. Flesh of Wood is useful and wood blast does all the damage types. There was also enough talents to take one every level and Merciful Foliage came in pretty handy. If it has a downfall, it's that it's usefulness is mainly limited to wooded/jungle areas. If that's where you're going to spend a lot of time though, you could do worse than Wood.


Wood's biggest problem imho is that half of its abilities are something that earth or aether has but with restrictions.

It also has some of the most 'what the hell were they thinking' abiltiies in the game. Like fort negates sickened at level 9 for three burn or its big brother, fort negates 1d2 strength or dex damage at level 11 or 13. Or even the 4 CR7 pets at level 18 for one burn. And so on.

Void has a lot of bad talents too, but it does get flight and the highest nova damage late game. Not that late game ends up being relevant very often.

Quote:
Overwhelming Soul has issues but I'd rather have them then nonlethal damage.

I wouldn't. I mean, I totally hate burn too, but the Overwhelming Soul is so messy that even playing a race with a cha bonus and a con penalty I'd be pretty tempted to play a baseline kineticist anyways.

Silver Crusade

graystone wrote:
For the most part I agree with your assessment, but I had a oneshot with a wood Kinetsicist and I think it worked better than my void one. Flesh of Wood is useful and wood blast does all the damage types. There was also enough talents to take one every level and Merciful Foliage came in pretty handy. If it has a downfall, it's that it's usefulness is mainly limited to wooded/jungle areas. If that's where you're going to spend a lot of time though, you could do worse than Wood.

Void is better than wood, but not by much. Void and wood both have the same dearth of talents, but void's are more universally useful and void probably has the best energy blast in the game thanks to undead being the only thing that are unharmed by it.

Earth/Aether have amazing defenses, great offensive, and solid utility.

Water/Air have good to okay defenses, solid offense, and pretty good utility.

Fire/Void have garbage defenses, solid offense, and meh utility.

Wood has garbage defense, meh offense, and meh utility as like Squiggit mentioned, most of its talents are jankier versions of Earth/Aether ones.

In a rough ranking, this is the value of each element:

1. Aether
2. Earth
3. Air
4. Water
5. Fire
6. Void
7. (reserved for mocking wood)
8. Wood (toxic infusion hurts my soul)


graystone wrote:

The rogue uses every FCB for hp while the human spent them on the free feat. Both have toughness. So D8=d8 and toughness = toughness, so cancel that out. 18 = 16 + FCB. So +6...

lv1-2 +6 kineticist, no burn needed.
3 +3 kineticist
4 even
5 -3 kineticist
6 -6
7 -8
ect...

lvl 1-2 +6 (+6 scars)

lvl 3 +3 (+6 scars -3 [1]burn)
lvl 4 +2 (+6 scars -4 [1]burn)
lvl 5 +1 (+6 scars -5 [1]burn)
lvl 6 0 (+6 scars -12 [2]burn +6 overflow[con+2])
lvl 7 -1
lvl 8 -2
lvl 9 -12 (+6 scars -27 [3]burn +9 overflow[con+2])
lvl 10 -14
lvl 11 -5 (+6 scars -33 [3]burn +22 overflow[con+4])
lvl 12 -18 (+6 scars -48 [4]burn +24 overflow[con+4])
lvl 13 -20
lvl 14 -22
lvl 15 -39 (+6 scars -75 [5]burn +30 overflow[con+4])
lvl 16 -26 (+6 scars -80 [5]burn +48 overflow[con+6])
lvl 17 -28
lvl 18 -54 (+6 scars -108 [6]burn +54 overflow[con+6])
lvl 19 -57
lvl 20 -60

I don't know how you got your math, but your rogue only gains a slight lead in usable hp at level 7. That lead only becomes significant at level 9.

I personally prefer to use my FCB for hp though, so my build would stay above your rogue until level 9.


Derek Dalton wrote:
Burn and the abilities granted don't make the nonlethal HP drain in my mind worth it. Overwhelming Soul has issues but I'd rather have them then nonlethal damage. Consider this one Critical hit and your character is down when he would have otherwise would have stayed up. The burn damage doesn't heal without the eight hours rest so it's not like the healer can pump you back to full after combat. That is my issue. One good combat you are effectively at half or even lower in HP. Granted you might be a long range blaster avoiding even attempting to get close in combat you still can be hurt. One fireball could ruin your day. Even with abilities and magic there is always a situation where you will get hurt and having less then optimal HP is bad. Especially tough boss battles for lack of a better term.

It's well worth it. I'll use my lvl 8 kineticist as an example. This is everything I gain from taking 3 burn in the morning.

+8 HP, 24 NLD (Net change of -16) for 82 HP to play with, more than most classes
+1 reflex save
+1 fort save
+3 attack
+5 damage on physical and energy blasts (except KBlade) (+7.5 if empowered)
+1 initiative
+1 AC
+1 to all DEX skills
Defense (if you invest the 3 in your defense)

  • +12 HP, self replenishing
  • +3 AC
  • +3 DR/Adamantine... etc

All of this for just net 16 NLD

Liberty's Edge

Shadowkire wrote:


lvl 1-2 +6 (+6 scars)
lvl 3 +3 (+6 scars -3 [1]burn)
lvl 4 +2 (+6 scars -4 [1]burn)
lvl 5 +1 (+6 scars -5 [1]burn)
lvl 6 0 (+6 scars -12 [2]burn +6 overflow[con+2])
lvl 7 -1
lvl 8 -2
lvl 9 -12 (+6 scars -27 [3]burn +9 overflow[con+2])
lvl 10 -14
lvl 11 -5 (+6 scars -33 [3]burn +22 overflow[con+4])
lvl 12 -18 (+6 scars -48 [4]burn +24 overflow[con+4])
lvl 13 -20
lvl 14 -22
lvl 15 -39 (+6 scars -75 [5]burn +30 overflow[con+4])
lvl 16 -26 (+6 scars -80 [5]burn +48 overflow[con+6])
lvl 17 -28
lvl 18 -54 (+6 scars -108 [6]burn +54 overflow[con+6])
lvl 19 -57
lvl 20 -60

You got that slightly wrong, increasing Con without the necessary Burn at several levels.

But let's insert a Belt of Con +2 at 5th, +4 at 11th, and +6 at 17th. And level up points in Con at, say, 4th and 8th since that's another logical thing to do.

Because that's what a Kineticist also has that the Rogue doesn't:

lvl 1-2 +6 (+6 scars)
lvl 3 +3 (+6 scars -3 [1]burn)
lvl 4 +2 (+6 scars -4 [1]burn)
lvl 5 +6 (+6 scars, +5 Con Belt -5 [1]burn)
lvl 6 +6 (+6 scars +6 Con Belt -12 [2]burn +6 overflow[con+2])
lvl 7 +6
lvl 8 +14 (+6 scars +8 Con Belt +8 Con -16 [2]burn +8 overflow[con+2])
lvl 9 +6 (+6 scars +9 Con Belt +9 Con -27 [3]burn +9 overflow[con+2])
lvl 10 +6
lvl 11 +17 (+6 scars +22 Con Belt +11 Con -33 [3]burn +11 overflow[con+2])
lvl 12 +6 (+6 scars +24 Con Belt +12 Con -60 [5]burn +24 overflow[con+4])
lvl 13 +6
lvl 14 +6
lvl 15 +6 (+6 scars +30 Con Belt +15 Con -75 [5]burn +30 overflow[con+4])
lvl 16 +22 (+6 scars +48 Con Belt +16 Con -80 [5]burn +32 overflow[con+4])
lvl 17 +23
lvl 18 +6 (+6 scars +54 Con Belt +18 Con -126 [7]burn +54 overflow[con+6])
lvl 19 +6
lvl 20 +6

And that's the highest Con I've ever seen on a Rogue combined with not taking FCB on HP as a Kineticist (something I've never seen). Make it Con 14 on the rogue and FCB to HP on the Kineticist and we're adding 2 x Level to all of the above.

And, of course, if you've got a good defensive Wild Talent, that gets much better.

A 12th level Geokineticist has DR 11/Adamantine. A 12th level Telekineticist has 42 extra HP. A 12th level Aquakineticist has +6 AC or more and presumably some other ongoing stuff. A 12th level Aerokineticist has a 55% miss chance.

A Pyrokineticist admittedly lacks such an option, but still.


Squiggit: Are you assuming a single element wood user? I didn't worry too much about the higher abilities as I could start picking up talents from the second element from 7th on. From 1-7 it seemed good and that's all an element really needs.

As far as defense, I rank it higher than air. In very little time foes figure out to cast spells or melee an air negating the bonuses. Natural armor bonuses will work on all non-touch attacks. Unless you only fight grounded ranged weapon users, you're going to find plenty of time the defense does nothing.

Void is such a mixed bag: either suck or awesome... reverse gravity with no burn? Cool! void healer? Really???

Overwhelming Soul: Yeah I HATE burn but I'd rather play a normal Kinetsicist...

Deadmanwalking: I left magic items out as the setting are much different in terms of magic items. My rogue is much more likely to have a magic belt than the kinetisist.

The 16 was for fort saves. I expected more fort and ref saves in an undead rich game. Will saves are buffed by deathtouched and iron will. Hp where really a side effect. I pretty much have every skill trained, 1/2 level in skills adding 1/2 level bonus AND granting skill unlocks, dex to att/dam and a pile of major magic. I'm REALLY liking the new Phantom Thief!

Stats:
St 10
dx 18
cn 16
in 16
ws 10
ch 08

On the FCB, 3 extra talents and 2 hp seemed a fair instead of 20 hp. Picking up the +9 hp at first seemed enough to not NEED the FCB. It seems a shame if you can't make a good character unless you ignore the racial special FCB.

On the HP's per level list: I'm sure my numbers where off as I did them quickly in my head. I just knew my rogue was ending up with more hp.


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Derek Dalton wrote:
I do not think the class is underpowered at all. I've read complaints about what it can do at higher levels then a Druid yet they seem to miss something. Druid's cast spells meaning they are limited to how often they can use them. Kineticist often can use it's abilities at will. Feather Fall and Fly at will. How is that not awesome. The other abilities are just as awesome.

Fighters have it rough, so they aren't a great comaprison, but anyways:

The "at will" thing was what originally scared the crap out of people when 3.5 introduced the Warlock. However, as it turned out, reality is never quite so kind.

The "how often you can per day" of full casters ever since 3rd edition tends to prove itself an illusory limit, when compared to the "at will" of other classes. Not only are the spells powerful and long-lasting, but their limits quickly overtake the number of encounters, puzzles and fights one can reasonably expect to happen between rests.

Sure, that fighter can swing his sword all day, and that kineticist can blast all day... But on average, you'll have 3-4 encounters, the combat ones will last around 3-4 rounds, and a good number of the 'buff' spells you'd only get to do once a day are going to last you through at least two of those encounters because they're in hours. HP and ability damage -the limited resource of those poor guys eating it in the frontline- are also a consideration; parties will stop to sleep, and in fact there's even spells to help make sure nothing will prevent this full recovery of spells.

Just like eldritch blast turned out to mean "about 12 times a day, 15 on a bad one", and at-will flight turned out to mean "I get to keep up with 'overland'". One has to be careful as a result, for it becomes easy to undertune an ability, making it of little to no value, simply due to the illusion of "all day".


Deadmanwalking wrote:

You got that slightly wrong, increasing Con without the necessary Burn at several levels.

Oops, you are right.

The only thing I dislike about kineticist is all the paperwork involved in stating one out :)


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I really wouldn't say a Kineticist can use their abilities all day, they actually have the worst limited resource of all: hit points. Using their abilities drains their hp.

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Deadmanwalking: I left magic items out as the setting are much different in terms of magic items. My rogue is much more likely to have a magic belt than the kinetisist.

The game assumes magic item availability. Much like a Fighter in a game without magic weapons, a Kineticist is gonna really suffer in a game where magic belts aren't readily available.

Indeed, large portions of the Class are based on the assumption that you can spend money on such a belt instead of a magic weapon, so playing it in a game with non-standard gear assumptions is inevitably gonna run into problems. As is true with basicaly all Classes in Pathfinder, really.

graystone wrote:

The 16 was for fort saves. I expected more fort and ref saves in an undead rich game. Will saves are buffed by deathtouched and iron will. Hp where really a side effect. I pretty much have every skill trained, 1/2 level in skills adding 1/2 level bonus AND granting skill unlocks, dex to att/dam and a pile of major magic. I'm REALLY liking the new Phantom Thief!

Stats:
St 10
dx 18
cn 16
in 16
ws 10
ch 08

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm much more likely to play a Phantom Thief than Kineticist, but that's because I love skills and really enjoy being good at social skills specifically, not because Kineticist isn't good.

And I'm not saying Con 16 isn't a good choice, just noting it as unusual. I'll also note that as really high point-buy, which might also be a contributing factor to him seeming better than the Kineticist if the Kineticist isn't built on a similar point-buy.

graystone wrote:
On the FCB, 3 extra talents and 2 hp seemed a fair instead of 20 hp. Picking up the +9 hp at first seemed enough to not NEED the FCB. It seems a shame if you can't make a good character unless you ignore the racial special FCB.

You can be good without the FCB. You just won't have quite as large an HP advantage.

graystone wrote:
On the HP's per level list: I'm sure my numbers where off as I did them quickly in my head. I just knew my rogue was ending up with more hp.

If you're not getting a Con belt at all, ever? And effectively have equal Con for HP due to FCB? You're quite correct.

Those are not normal circumstances, though. Not at all.


HeHateMe wrote:
Everybody has different preferences of course, to each their own. Raistlin isn't a good example though. He had severe health issues right from the start, whereas a Kineticist with a Con of 22 or 24 has superhuman stamina, health and fortitude. Raistlin's Con would be closer to 6.

And look with he did with a 6 con.

I I only pointed it out because I like the concept, and the kineticist seems to be a pretty good version. I'd run one with Ranger and be ok with that.

I'd prefer the HP based level 9 caster (and a burn-like mechanic seems to be a good way to get it done), but this will suffice for now.


HeHateMe wrote:
I really wouldn't say a Kineticist can use their abilities all day, they actually have the worst limited resource of all: hit points. Using their abilities drains their hp.

Most is all day. Every kinetic blast related burn (infusions, metakinesis, composite blasts) can be mitigated with gather power and specializations. Most utility talents are 0 burn as well. All day invisibility, flight, mage hand, ride the blast, planar shift, earth glide, etc. Even kinetic form allows for all day enlarge and super enlarge person with just in initial investment.


Deadmanwalking;
Magic items: Both have magic items but only one got to pick items. ;)

Stats: Both where 25 point buys, so that's a wash.

FCB: That's good to know. I was just surprised to note the hp comparison when one character when one tried to boost hp and the other didn't.

Con belt: Hmmm... it's not THAT unusual for me to have game where buying items is restricted in some way. It's one of the reason I dislike people always bringing up 'get an agile weapon' when talking about dex melee combat. It's not always a given.

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:

Deadmanwalking;

Magic items: Both have magic items but only one got to pick items. ;)

Ah. Gotcha.

graystone wrote:
Stats: Both where 25 point buys, so that's a wash.

Cool. Just checking.

graystone wrote:
FCB: That's good to know. I was just surprised to note the hp comparison when one character when one tried to boost hp and the other didn't.

Well, it sorta depends on how many resources you have available and how much investment you consider 'a lot'. I'd characterize Con 16, FCB, and Toughness as really high investments into HP, personally. Not because it's necessarily a large amount of your resources, but because it's almost as heavy an investment as you can make.

graystone wrote:
Con belt: Hmmm... it's not THAT unusual for me to have game where buying items is restricted in some way. It's one of the reason I dislike people always bringing up 'get an agile weapon' when talking about dex melee combat. It's not always a given.

Buying items can be restricted, but certain items are assumed by the game. If nobody gets Cloaks of Resistance, the game is gonna screw the PCs over pretty regularly. A Fighter who never gets magic weapons (in fact, even one who never gets the right kind of magic weapon) has serious problems, a Wizard who can't get a Headband of Int is in deep trouble...and in the same way, a Kineticist without access to a Con Belt is screwed in a way the rules do not assume and cannot readily cope with.

Really, in any game where buying items is restricted, the GM should be tailoring items to the PCs or the PCs will wind up deeply imbalanced, since not all items are good for all people, and anything else results in a deeply unbalancing wealth distribution. The Kineticist should certainly get a Belt of Con in such a game. If she doesn't, the GM is doing something wrong.

The Kineticist needs one offensive item to function, a Belt of Con (and Dex, ideally). That's exactly the same as anyone who relies on Save DCs, and is not a high bar to hit.


I think something that Kinetics /really really/ need is something that every single magic caster gets but them..

Pearls of Power.

Pretty much every magic caster has this, or something very similar to it. Have some sort of Burn gems for low level usage (In other words they shouldn't cost 10k gold each.)

And they should be something that could pay for utility talents even. I suppose the trick would be trying to figure out a way to limit their use.

Perhaps since the kinetic wording loves to make absolutes like "You are never wielding your blast regardless if there is ever a blast that says you are." and "You can never change the effects of non-lethal damage if you take a point of burn" Perhaps "You can only ever benefit from these burn gems once per day per three kineticist levels regardless if one of the gems ever says otherwise."


Deadmanwalking wrote:
I'd characterize Con 16, FCB, and Toughness as really high investments into HP, personally. Not because it's necessarily a large amount of your resources, but because it's almost as heavy an investment as you can make.

I guess I can see that. I picked up toughness for Draconic Defender since I often fight defensively so why not share the love. ;)

items: My Kineticist has Bracers of Falcon's Aim, a save item, a chest item that boosts dex + gives a few catrip like abilities and a crystal that acts like a Pale Green Flawed Prism Ioun Stone. Overall I can't complain about the items I've gotten. We've only gotten a few stat item, and I already have one, so it's unlikely I'll get a con item in in the future.

Scarab Sages

Darche Schneider wrote:

I think something that Kinetics /really really/ need is something that every single magic caster gets but them..

Pearls of Power.

Pretty much every magic caster has this, or something very similar to it. Have some sort of Burn gems for low level usage (In other words they shouldn't cost 10k gold each.)

And they should be something that could pay for utility talents even. I suppose the trick would be trying to figure out a way to limit their use.

Perhaps since the kinetic wording loves to make absolutes like "You are never wielding your blast regardless if there is ever a blast that says you are." and "You can never change the effects of non-lethal damage if you take a point of burn" Perhaps "You can only ever benefit from these burn gems once per day per three kineticist levels regardless if one of the gems ever says otherwise."

They have it as a class feature. It's what internal buffer is.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
I'd characterize Con 16, FCB, and Toughness as really high investments into HP, personally. Not because it's necessarily a large amount of your resources, but because it's almost as heavy an investment as you can make.

I guess I can see that. I picked up toughness for Draconic Defender since I often fight defensively so why not share the love. ;)

items: My Kineticist has Bracers of Falcon's Aim, a save item, a chest item that boosts dex + gives a few catrip like abilities and a crystal that acts like a Pale Green Flawed Prism Ioun Stone. Overall I can't complain about the items I've gotten. We've only gotten a few stat item, and I already have one, so it's unlikely I'll get a con item in in the future.

Understood, but It's an assumption of the class that you will have access to both dex and con boosters.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How so.

Scarab Sages

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captain yesterday wrote:
How so.

The class pushes you to use kinetic blasts instead of traditional weapons, freeing much of your WBL that would have gone toward a magic weapon.

In order to function, Kinetic Blasts need Dexterity to Hit, and Con for Burn, Damage and DCs. It's very much a dual attribute dependent class. Whichever stat is primary will vary on element. Physical Blasts tend to want dex higher, while energy blasts will want Con higher. However, in both cases, the goal is to have Dex & Con very close to each other, not more than one to two points apart.

Most classes assume you will have a magic weapon and a primary stat belt/circlet. Since the Kineticist has two primary stats and no need of a weapon, that gold is moved to adding a second stat enhancement to the belt.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

this is a great thread, lots of interesting views.

I will be playing a kineticist in a Giantslayer campaign starting next week. He'll be a Svirfneblin Earth Kineticist(and will later go into air), which according to n-jollys guide should be quite powerful.

There will be a Skald in the party, but unfortunately Kineticists cannot benefit from the skald song on their blasts since it requires concentration, which bums me out. My idea of the flavor of the class can totally envision him raging and shooting his blasts all over the place, but sadly that doesn't work. Too bad blasts aren't (SU) instead of (Sp).

I am concerned about my blasts resolving against normal AC and not being able to get precise shot until level-3. We shall see how it plays out.

Scarab Sages

Grumpus wrote:


There will be a Skald in the party, but unfortunately Kineticists cannot benefit from the skald song on their blasts since it requires concentration, which bums me out. My idea of the flavor of the class can totally envision him raging and shooting his blasts all over the place, but sadly that doesn't work. Too bad blasts aren't (SU) instead of (Sp).

There is a new Feat in Magic Tactics Toolbox that will let Furious Song work: Expanded Metakinesis. This will let you add Furious Spell to your blast for one burn, which can be reduced by gather power as normal.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Imbicatus wrote:
There is a new Feat in Magic Tactics Toolbox that will let Furious Song work: Expanded Metakinesis. This will let you add Furious Spell to your blast for one burn, which can be reduced by gather power as normal.

Thanks, I'll have to check it out.

Now I am disappointed there is no composite blast for earth/electric combo, seems like metal would be obvious. What are the odds that paizo releases more composite blasts before my guy hits level 7 in about 6 months?

Scarab Sages

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Grumpus wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
There is a new Feat in Magic Tactics Toolbox that will let Furious Song work: Expanded Metakinesis. This will let you add Furious Spell to your blast for one burn, which can be reduced by gather power as normal.

Thanks, I'll have to check it out.

Now I am disappointed there is no composite blast for earth/electric combo, seems like metal would be obvious. What are the odds that paizo releases more composite blasts before my guy hits level 7 in about 6 months?

I think you'd be more likely to roll a crit with a scythe while under a misfortune hex and fighting pugwampis.


Imbicatus wrote:
Darche Schneider wrote:

I think something that Kinetics /really really/ need is something that every single magic caster gets but them..

Pearls of Power.

Pretty much every magic caster has this, or something very similar to it. Have some sort of Burn gems for low level usage (In other words they shouldn't cost 10k gold each.)

And they should be something that could pay for utility talents even. I suppose the trick would be trying to figure out a way to limit their use.

Perhaps since the kinetic wording loves to make absolutes like "You are never wielding your blast regardless if there is ever a blast that says you are." and "You can never change the effects of non-lethal damage if you take a point of burn" Perhaps "You can only ever benefit from these burn gems once per day per three kineticist levels regardless if one of the gems ever says otherwise."

They have it as a class feature. It's what internal buffer is.

And Wizards have Pearls of power as a class feature called scrolls. Well except the two behave differently. Like Internal Buffer and the supposed magic item.

IF the Internal Buffer didn't have you take burn to pay for it, You might have had a point. But as it stands, that isn't how it works. You've got to put points of burn into it. Wizards don't not cast spells so they can use that spell energy to charge pearls of power that they used up.

But that is exactly what you do with the internal buffer class feature. You've got to -not- use burn so you can charge your internal buffer to pay for burn later. It works okay like this on like, the first day of an adventure, when you had time to put your point into it, without using up power you might have actually needed.

Internal Buffer's main use really isn't to be a pearl of power. Its this one sentence..

Quote:
Similarly, this buffer can be used to exceed the limit on the number of points of burn the kineticist can accept in a single turn.

Its that one big spell you might have needed that need more than 2 points of burn you could take. (This way you could have a blast that technically used a total of 4 points of burn)

Especially since through your entire career of a kinecticist from level 1 to level 20, the maximum you get is 3 points. Not a very impressive amount to be honest. Especially when you compare to a wizard who could be trippin pearls. Pearls for days. So many pearls of power he made necklace out of them.

And that Necklace looks something like [url]https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT9Obc7Ez1vRK2cLUKjNiE rUzsp6GeNSCP1gp6v52cvmnJLc4rXc-MK1g[/url]


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I think everyone agrees that Kineticists are generally lacking in class specific feats and items, choices among wild talents, and archetypes. Hopefully they will continue to get support.

For a home game, I think I'd look to convert a lot of the Exalted game's Dragon-blooded powers into kineticist wild talents until such support materialized. (In addition to using certain third party kineticist-centric books recommended by N. Jolly)

Silver Crusade

kadance wrote:

I think everyone agrees that Kineticists are generally lacking in class specific feats and items, choices among wild talents, and archetypes. Hopefully they will continue to get support.

For a home game, I think I'd look to convert a lot of the Exalted game's Dragon-blooded powers into kineticist wild talents until such support materialized. (In addition to using certain third party kineticist-centric books recommended by N. Jolly)

Huh, haven't heard of those dragon-blooded powers, sounds like that could be fun. We're at least getting a slow trickle of content, although there's quite a few things in KOP that have been asked for with this thread. Won't help for PFS sadly.


Anyone played a Kineticist from level 2 to 14?

With a PFS Aerokineticist at 14th level, I think I can speak to the efficacy of a well-played kineticist. The only complaint I can offer is that I could not out-damage a dual-wielding Pistolero of the same level.


technarken wrote:

Anyone played a Kineticist from level 2 to 14?

With a PFS Aerokineticist at 14th level, I think I can speak to the efficacy of a well-played kineticist. The only complaint I can offer is that I could not out-damage a dual-wielding Pistolero of the same level.

I've gone 1-8 so far and the only thing that out damages me in our party are barbarian greataxe crits. Which she has somehow successfully gotten in every. single. session. since she joined us at lvl 7. But she's also been disarmed repeatedly by monks.


technarken wrote:

Anyone played a Kineticist from level 2 to 14?

With a PFS Aerokineticist at 14th level, I think I can speak to the efficacy of a well-played kineticist. The only complaint I can offer is that I could not out-damage a dual-wielding Pistolero of the same level.

There is a very good reason we don't have gunslingers at my gaming table. Don't mind early firearms, but the gunslinger? No thanks.

Scarab Sages

Fourshadow wrote:
technarken wrote:

Anyone played a Kineticist from level 2 to 14?

With a PFS Aerokineticist at 14th level, I think I can speak to the efficacy of a well-played kineticist. The only complaint I can offer is that I could not out-damage a dual-wielding Pistolero of the same level.

There is a very good reason we don't have gunslingers at my gaming table. Don't mind early firearms, but the gunslinger? No thanks.

See, I love the gunslinger, but hate firearms. Bolt Ace FTW.


Only done levels 3-5 on my hydrokin. She's got the most solid damage out of the party. The monk and the ninja can outdamage me but they need a lot of good rolls and a ki point to do so, and the ninja needs to be in the right spot. She's also never felt the true impact of burn yet since I only put a point or two into her water shield which is enough to keep her safe from attacks.

The only major issue is a lack of OH S$#% buttons to push, but once I hit level 7 I'll be able to entangle foes in cold energy and if need be throw a MASSIVE EMPOWERED ice shard at the cost of a lot of burn, but it's not like I'm a big spender of that resource.


I've been following along this thread for a while, and I think what this all boils down to is there are 2 types of people when it comes to the Kineticist.

Person A has never, or hardly ever, had a long adventuring day and see's spellcasters as the epitome of power (which admittedly they pretty much are). They don't see a reason to play a Kineticist because a spellcaster can cast spells and throw fireballs "all day long". Person A sees no need for a class feature that can be used an infinite number of times (within action/time constraints) when a finite number of spells can still last them through the day. They are used to playing squishy mages and so a class feature that encourages you to throw your HP away scares them, no matter how "worth it" you try to make it seem, with bigger HD, higher Con, and class features that replace those spent HP and increase defenses.

Person B has either had plenty of long adventuring days or doesn't like the idea of main class features that "run out", like spells/day on a spellcaster. They like the reliability of a class feature that can be used all day without running out. They like the versatile utility selection that can, for the most part, also be used all day. They are willing to toss some HP away on a "nova round", because the class can afford it.

I have always compared this class to the Warlock from 3.5, which I've seen get a lot of flak on this site. However, our play groups limited interaction with Warlocks from 3.5 was that they were great. There were abilities for constant flight and constant invisibility, which basically set you up to never be attacked by anybody, and that was just two abilities. On top of that, you had a blast that kept about up with any other DPR build (assuming it wasn't broken to the point of not being used) and could alter that blast to be various shapes and sizes for whatever the occasion called for. One of our players broke it even further by multiclassing Battlemage and Eldritch Theurge, which advanced his spells and his blast abilities, but that's more the fault of Eldritch Theurge, which doesn't exist (yet).

I feel like this class is like a fair Warlock; a lot of the brokenness is kept in check by the Burn mechanic. You can still do a lot of the utility stuff without using burn, but the truly powerful abilities require burn, keeping them from being abused. And the versatility and over-poweredness of the blast is kept in check the same way.

My only critique of the class is that the burn you take scales with your level. I don't see why this is a thing, and I feel like it should have just stayed 1-for-1. Even then, I've seen the math everyone has done for burn, and I think it's still usable.

:smurfatar:


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HyperMissingno wrote:
She's also never felt the true impact of burn yet since I only put a point or two into her water shield which is enough to keep her safe from attacks.

Really, that's all you need. Get up to the elemental overflow cap, fill your reservoir at the end of a day if you used any of it that day, then use burn ONLY when you absolutely need it.

An empowered blast from 5th level on to 11th level, a composite blast from 11th onward. Various debuffs, shaping tricks, and the like using infusion specialization. Add Weapon Finesse and Kinetic Blade so you can punch people that try to get up next to you.

Presto, you have the offenses of a rogue that always gets sneak attack on every attack that lands.

Select the appopriate utility powers and you'll have quite a bit of utility out of combat. True, you get most of these powers at a later level than spells, but you can just use them (for the most part) whenever you want. Fire need not apply.

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