I'm currently considering making an alchemist, and for the first time actually read the rules about them in detail.
I'm kinda wondering how they fight. I'm talking about a full alchemist, not just taking a level of it with another class.
Obviously they have their bombs, but thats a limited resource (but so are spell slots, so might be viable to rely mostly on that)
From what I understand, all his spells, extracts I mean, are self-only, unless he takes Infusion discovery, which allows him to pass the extracts to someone else and they use it. That seems to eat up actions for both participants though, alchemist for handing it over and target for actually drinking it. So nice for buffs and so out of combat, but not really in combat.
You can't sprinkle it over someone or smash the vial over their head. Also I don't think there are any offensive spells on his formula list anyway.
Mutagens... well. I guess you can increase your Con for more HPs or your Dex for better ranged touch attack. So just a buff really. Might be more awesome for a level dip into alchemist really, than for the actual alchemist.
So that brings us back to bombs. Not really so great to throw them at an enemy that's currently fighting your allies though.
So what exactly is the Alchemists role in a fight?
Bombs are just once resource the alchemist has.
The alchemist's role to be versatile. Pick up the slack wherever the party needs it. Need some AoE? Toss a bomb. Healing? If you've picked up Infusion, that's not a problem. In a low-burden situation? Alchemists have decent BAB so just attack.
That's the point of alchemists. They aren't the best at anything. But they are pretty good at alot of different things.
|
There are basically two ways, the bomber and the melee Alchemist.
A bomber, well, bombs. You get enough per day for at least one fight, and usually more than that, and can use a normal ranged weapon thereafter. Explosive death plus status effects rain down on yourenemies as touch attacks.
A melee alchemist downs his Mutagen (and there are several ways to get more than one Mutagen in a day) and then wades into bloody hand to hand combat, often with his bare hands (having gained razored claws from Feral Mutagen).
In both cases he does this having buffed himself to a truly absurd degree (that being the point of his spell list).
There are basically two ways, the bomber and the melee Alchemist.
A bomber, well, bombs. You get enough per day for at least one fight, and usually more than that, and can use a normal ranged weapon thereafter. Explosive death plus status effects rain down on yourenemies as touch attacks.
A melee alchemist downs his Mutagen (and there are several ways to get more than one Mutagen in a day) and then wades into bloody hand to hand combat, often with his bare hands (having gained razored claws from Feral Mutagen).
In both cases he does this having buffed himself to a truly absurd degree (that being the point of his spell list).
To this I would add that the melee oriented alchemist is a great switch-hitter, since his bombs gives him a useful ranged attack without having to invest alot into it.
That seems to eat up actions for both participants though, alchemist for handing it over and target for actually drinking it.
Just to make sure. At later levels you will brew extracts in the morning and hand some to your allies. So in combat the drinking ally will "loose" an action not both of you.
Later Combine Extracts and Infusion can work wonders. You 2handed fighter will love the portion of Displacement/Shield you hand him every morning.
Bombs in melee are not a big problem with Precise Bombs [Discovery]/Precise Shot[Feat].
An alchemist just needs a backup weapon for the times it's not worth to throw a bomb on an already defeated enemy.
Breiti
|
I'm running a pretty disturbingly effective mindchemist alchemist at the moment.
He uses bombs and alchemical items like acid flasks for combat.
He's got a maxed out intelligence for the extra damage on thrown weapons. He also nabbed the kirin strike feat for more damage, although once/round.
So he's good on damage.
However, what really pushes him to the nines is the alchemical allocation extract, a selection of carefully chosen buff potions, and the extend potion discovery. It's just wrong if you can purchase potions at a decent caster level.
You could grab the two weapon fighting feat chain and rapid shot to toss more bombs... but you'll be doing a bunch of damage as it is.
The melee version of the alchemist uses feral mutagen and the vivisectionist archetype to deal lots and lots of damage in melee. Improved unarmed strike is a bonus here, so you can make your normal attacks with your knees. See alchemical allocation and buff potions for more gravy.
|
The feral style is only great if you have a GM willing to let you buy 20th level potions (like PFS); otherwise you're typically better off with weapons. For my part, I love the grenadier archetype as a good "catch all"; you do AE cones with bombs, and get a free weapon proficiency (I like Luceren hammer). I build them like:
S: 16 I: 16 W: 12 D: 16 C: 10 Ch: 7 (Elf)
Drink mutagen, at level 4 add in a swig (spit up) of heroism (extended with discovery) and you're in action. Bombs are more utility; I love the stinking cloud and dispelling bombs for this setup. Feat is combat reflexes, then discoveries (you want stink bombs and an extra arm so you can toss and still be ready to "hammer down").
Our Alchemist generally stays in the rear and lobs bombs and/or spells. She has been known to shape-shift on occasion and melee that way.
|
|
I'm playing an Alchemist in a Kingmaker campaign atm. Only lvl 3. Gotta say it's interesting, during down time i'm all about making potions; gotta love brew potion at 1st lvl. I have a good amount of Potion of Shield, Potion of True Strike, and Potion of Enlarge Person.
Depending on the set up, i'll pop the true strike throw a bomb, drink the shield, enlarge, and mutagen if I need to go melee. Granted that is like three rounds of buffing, but it's proven nasty in melee when i'm all buffed up.
I've taken teh discovery to increase the AoE of my bombs and the next discovery is to pick the squares that are not effected by the blast. Plus with the increased AoE don't forget the main target is taking damage every round from the bomb!
After the combat i'm a good off healer, and sometimes have been during the combat.
In the end it's fun and very versatile.
:D
The feral style is only great if you have a GM willing to let you buy 20th level potions (like PFS)...
Uhmm... what... I thought potions, scrolls and wands had to be minimum caster level in PF. Is that wrong? Now I'm trying to remember where I read that.
I have a friend playing a "Dr. Jykle/Mr. Hyde" type of character using the prestige class found in the Adv Players Handbook. Basicly he took a level of barbarian and the rest is alchemist with that prestige class.
We are only level 3 atm but so far its effective. When he chages to Mr. Hyde (aka rages and drinks his mutagen) he has a 26 or 29 Str... something like that. He uses his walking cane (Great Club) to smash people.
As I said our old characters died (Stupid Carrion Crown), So I have only seen him in action once but he looked pretty mean. Hopefully he and My new Synthesist Summoner will survive longer then our old characters (Witch and Warmage).
I've been playing an alchemist in society for a while now, its currently 7 alch 1 barbarian. At the first few levels i played it strictly like a bomb thrower, as at those levels the bombs do a fair amount of damage that is very reliable. In the mid levels I took a level of barbarian and feral mutagen and went melee when bombs weren't desired. At mid levels the bombs kinda don't do as much since the 1 dice every two levels doesn't keep up. Once you get fast bombs they become good again, but you end up running out quickly. That is why I went with a level of barbarian, as claw claw bite with a huge buff and feral mutagen is actually decent offense. Bull strength, mutagen, and rage all stack. That's +12 Strength if you have time to drink in battle (might want to look into drunken brute, as it allows you to drink potions as a move action, and extend rage by boozing). Enlarge person can add even damage if you want to (not always time or space). At the current level I've switched to bows as I think that this character is a bit to fragile to be a front liner at this level. Rapid shot and 2nd attack is nice when you don't want to waste bombs, and once fast bombs occurs ought to be able to spike a nasty AoE.
Going from 10 strength to 22 or so is pretty fun, and if I had planned my guy a bit better I would have started with a more balanced build (18 int and dex on an elf, was thinking solely bombs). If you put a 16 in int , dex , and str I think that is the best. Low cha and wisdom if you want to have any con though.
I have one alchemist who uses bombs and a greataxe (+Str mutagen), and one who uses bombs and a bow (+Dex mutagen).
Wow no wonder you're having fun with the alchemist, you'll making potions that are impossible to make with the brew potion feat.I'm playing an Alchemist in a Kingmaker campaign atm. Only lvl 3. Gotta say it's interesting, during down time i'm all about making potions; gotta love brew potion at 1st lvl. I have a good amount of Potion of Shield, Potion of True Strike, and Potion of Enlarge Person.
What he is trying to say is that spells with range:personal cannot be made into potions. You can make extracts of those spells but only you can use those. You will need to take the appropriate discovery that allows you to give your extracts to others.
|
|
What he is trying to say is that spells with range:personal cannot be made into potions. You can make extracts of those spells but only you can use those. You will need to take the appropriate discovery that allows you to give your extracts to others.Wow no wonder you're having fun with the alchemist, you'll making potions that are impossible to make with the brew potion feat.I'm playing an Alchemist in a Kingmaker campaign atm. Only lvl 3. Gotta say it's interesting, during down time i'm all about making potions; gotta love brew potion at 1st lvl. I have a good amount of Potion of Shield, Potion of True Strike, and Potion of Enlarge Person.
I and my GM were under the interpretation that the alchemist was able to make those extracts on his formula list into potions.
You can't sprinkle it over someone or smash the vial over their head.
That should be a feat. You deal no damage from the smash but the ability/potion is used on the target.
I and my GM were under the interpretation that the alchemist was able to make those extracts on his formula list into potions.What he is trying to say is that spells with range:personal cannot be made into potions. You can make extracts of those spells but only you can use those. You will need to take the appropriate discovery that allows you to give your extracts to others.Wow no wonder you're having fun with the alchemist, you'll making potions that are impossible to make with the brew potion feat.I'm playing an Alchemist in a Kingmaker campaign atm. Only lvl 3. Gotta say it's interesting, during down time i'm all about making potions; gotta love brew potion at 1st lvl. I have a good amount of Potion of Shield, Potion of True Strike, and Potion of Enlarge Person.
That is incorrect, but if your DM is ok with it then congrats. Its a house rule in your favor. RAW and RAI brew potion cannot be used to create potions of spells with a range of Personal.
Brew Potion (Ex): At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
Bolded text sayes it all. Here is the text on Brew Potion.
A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.
Hope that clears it up.
I and my GM were under the interpretation that the alchemist was able to make those extracts on his formula list into potions.What he is trying to say is that spells with range:personal cannot be made into potions. You can make extracts of those spells but only you can use those. You will need to take the appropriate discovery that allows you to give your extracts to others.Wow no wonder you're having fun with the alchemist, you'll making potions that are impossible to make with the brew potion feat.I'm playing an Alchemist in a Kingmaker campaign atm. Only lvl 3. Gotta say it's interesting, during down time i'm all about making potions; gotta love brew potion at 1st lvl. I have a good amount of Potion of Shield, Potion of True Strike, and Potion of Enlarge Person.
Brew Potion (Ex)
At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
While it does say that the alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows, the bolded line adds one restriction to that. Due to that you can't make potions of spells with a range of personal even if you are an alchemist.
Melee alchemist. You take the Vivvisectionist archetype to get rid of those stupid bombs for a damage boost ability and use feral mutagen, maybe beastmorph archetype as well. Works...like a rogue that can actually hit and generate his own sneak attacks. In other words, a rogue that actually works.
Bomb alchemist...I have trouble seeing how they work. You get far too few and the damage per bomb is so godawful that making a dps (damage per second; glass canon) build is just stupid unless you only have one encounter a day, in which case you should just play a real caster. Only viable way seems to be using the bombs for control purposes (the cloud ones and the confusion bombs which only hit one target unlike the spell, but offer no save at least). You use just enough to debuff your foes and then...hell if I know what you do after that. Your extracts can't really be used offensively much, throwing regular splash weapons is both super weak and expensive, and you certainly lack the bombs to just go wantonly blasting. You could melee, but you'd be like a bard w/o inspire courage... Hard to see a use for them. Even with the bombs for debuffing, your AoE is smaller than spells would be and it takes a bunch of confusion bombs before you start getting enemies to kill each other (the entire point of using confusion). Just seems like a caster is blatantly better at all of the stuff they can do. They can do some of the tricks a bit earlier than a caster could, but that's not too significant, IMO.
And the confusion comes in that Target: Personal does target 'one or more creatures'. It targets the caster, thus targets one creature. Is there an FAQ that clears this up?
Damn, guess i'm going to have to fix that our next session. Guess we both totally overlooked it. :(
Sorry we ruined your day. Your DM can always house rule it works as you have been playing it. Personally I dont see a big issue with it. It adds a little power to brew potion and gives your whole party access to shield. Good luck.
"How do Alchemists fight?"
In my limited observational experience, they fight by blowing the carp out of their allies as much as their enemies.
And the confusion comes in that Target: Personal does target 'one or more creatures'. It targets the caster, thus targets one creature. Is there an FAQ that clears this up?
No Range Personal does not count towards fufilling the "Targets one or more creatures". It only targets the caster.
Also the SRD specificly states "Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions."
Its very clear and intented that Range:Personal spells cannot be made into potions.
|
|
My alchemist for PFS is one of those cheesy beastmorph/vivisectionist ones. He wears a breastplate because he took the proficiency as a feat, and now has 50% fortification against crits and sneak attacks.
In melee he'll either use his longsword or his claws and bite attack, depending on the situation; he also makes a habit of passing out an extract of false life to any of the squishier party members. If he has any second level extracts left, he'll keep himself in a constant state of heroism.
Bomb alchemist...I have trouble seeing how they work. You get far too few and the damage per bomb is so godawful that making a dps (damage per second; glass canon) build is just stupid unless you only have one encounter a day, in which case you should just play a real caster.
Maybe this is true at high levels.
But at level 5 (say), a alchemist would have about 10 bombs per day (5 for level, +5 for an 18 Int with a headband +2). So assuming you have 4 fights per day, that gives you 2 or 3 bombs per fight; in my experience, fights rarely last past 3 rounds.
As far as damage goes, the same alchemist would do 3d6+5 damage, plus Point Blank Shot possibly, plus splash damage of 8 (save for half). So assuming you can catch one enemy in the splash, that's about 20 damage with almost no chance of missing. I think that compares quite favorably with a 5th level fighter using a bow or a greatsword. That's leaving aside the possibility that the alchemist might be using Stink Bombs (save vs. nausea) or other bomb discoveries.
|
Yeah, I'm playing a multiclassed alchemist (rogue 1/alchemist 10/lore warden 1), who has been built rather organically, picking feats and abilities when they are needed. For the record, don't do this, plan ahead! Sure, you should leave some options open, but stretching yourself thin only hurts 3/4 bab character with a limited ranged attack.
What I've done is to play the alchemist as a sort of hybrid. Chucking bombs when the situation calls for them, but otherwise staying in melee, buffed up with mutagen heroism and so forth. The bombs are a great feature, since they only require a single discovery investment, that being fast bombs, to become a support ranged option unlike any other. I constantly assess the battlefield, looking for moments when it might be a better idea to chuck an explosive rather than charge or move to position. Flying enemies become toast, since there's no save involved with the primary targets of the bomb, only with the splash damage.
The bombs target touch AC to boot, which is a huge boon. It means you can let them be and they never go out of fashion or become unusable, unlike many other ranged options where you can reach an AC threshold after which one might as well throw his bow to a nearby ditch. Bombs keep building up the damage dice and they hit very often. That odd hasted full attack will really put a smile on some monster's face when they get hit with, for instance, 5d6+Int x3 worth of elemental damage while running away or keeping the distance. From a fellow who looks like any other melee brute you might meet in a dungeon.