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To me, the Core fighter package says "Go Archer." Armor training to get a lot of your Dex and full mobility inthat full plate. Raw attack and damage bonuses to boost your archery. Enough feats to get yourself going relatively early and pick up a secondary combat style in the midgame.
Every other style seems to have conflicting messages. At high levels 2handed melee's AC is so low compared to monster attack bonuses that you might as well not have any. Sword and Board suffers damage issues and the fact that Pathfi der has no proper tanking mechanic.
On a side note, I did some napkin math on a Heavy Shield using fighter who spends a modest portion of his level 20 Wealth By Level. Against a CR 19 red dragon, he actually has a higher than 50% chance of dodging as long as he has the expected stuff: 14ish base Dex, +5 mythril full plate, Necklace, Shield, Ring, Belt with 6 Dex, Dodge and Shield Mastery feats.
Just checked D20PFSRD, it's been uploaded.
EDIT: So we have
Armed Bravery (Ex)
Defensive Weapon Training (Ex)
Fighter's Reflexes (Ex)
Versatile Training (Ex)
As actually good.
Also includes Weapon Mastery Feats
Good ones are:
Smash from the Air (Weapon Mastery) || Cut from the Air (Weapon Mastery)
No reason to grab more since you have to switch between them as a swift action, also none of the others are really worth it.
On a side note, I did some napkin math on a Heavy Shield using fighter who spends a modest portion of his level 20 Wealth By Level. Against a CR 19 red dragon, he actually has a higher than 50% chance of dodging as long as he has the expected stuff: 14ish base Dex, +5 mythril full plate, Necklace, Shield, Ring, Belt with 6 Dex, Dodge and Shield Mastery feats.
Most people for get to add Defender of the Society, which is another +1 AC easily obtained.
Also, I personally prefer going with a Light Shield + Crane Style feats.
Just checked D20PFSRD, it's been uploaded.EDIT: So we have
Armed Bravery (Ex)
Defensive Weapon Training (Ex)
Fighter's Reflexes (Ex)
Versatile Training (Ex)As actually good.
Also includes Weapon Mastery Feats
Good ones are:
Smash from the Air (Weapon Mastery) || Cut from the Air (Weapon Mastery)
No reason to grab more since you have to switch between them as a swift action, also none of the others are really worth it.
Ricochet Toss is pretty sweet for thrown builds.
There's also to mention Weapon Sacrifice and Fighter's Tactics as very interesting options. Fighter's Tactics opens up a whole new strategy to build.
Spellcut is actually garbage right? because it says total save bonus, so it is barely better than base save + resistance bonus + iron will
I don't even see spellcut listed anywhere. Smash from the air basically negates all rays attacks and ranged weapons.
googling spellcut pathfinder goes to it
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spellcut
Yeah, but that is garbage.
Cut the Air is limited by AOOs and doesn't remove your AC.
This random feat is once per round, removes your saving throw, works on very few spells, is merely an OK save.
6 class + 5 res + 2 feat + 1 trait = +14+stat bonus(2-5)
It's a slight improvement, but it shouldn't replace your saving throw.
I took it to mean base saving throw bonus, honestly.
My first read of it was that it was giving you your BAB instead of your base save, which would have been awesome. The restrictions on what it can be used on aren't as bad as it sounds; if the save bonus was actually significant you'd be virtually guaranteeing that you are never hit with dominate person, ever.
My first read of it was that it was giving you your BAB instead of your base save, which would have been awesome. The restrictions on what it can be used on aren't as bad as it sounds; if the save bonus was actually significant you'd be virtually guaranteeing that you are never hit with dominate person, ever.
That would be nice, but that is not how I read it.
Something has been bugging me.
How many feats should a fighter be spending on all these patches? Seems like a lot. Especially with all those other "your fighter should have these" feats. Doesn't seem like there is a lot left for actually making a fighter, unless you are going for the standard Greatsword+Power attack routine.
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Something has been bugging me.
How many feats should a fighter be spending on all these patches? Seems like a lot. Especially with all those other "your fighter should have these" feats. Doesn't seem like there is a lot left for actually making a fighter, unless you are going for the standard Greatsword+Power attack routine.
Some but not that many, because you should also proactively give up Weapon Training II, III and IV for AWT options.
For example:
TWF Critfish Kukri
1. TWF + Weapon Finesse
2. Weapon Focus
3. Iron Will
4. Double Slice
5. AWT Feat > Versatile Training > Get some skills
6. ITWF
7. Combat Reflexes
8. Improved Critical
9. Critical Focus + WT II > AWT > Armed Bravery
10. AWT Feat > Focused Weapon
11. Two-Weapon Rend
12. Power Attack
2H AoO Teamwork
1. Power Attack, Toughness
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Iron Will
4. Outflank
5. AWT Feat > Fighter's Tactics
6. Cut from the Air
7. Lookout
8. Improved Critical
9. Seize the Moment + WT II > AWT > Armed Bravery
10. AWT Feat > Versatile Training
11. Coordinated Charge
12. Smash from the Air
2H Switch Hit
1. Power Attack, Point-Blank Shot
2. Precise Shot
3. Quick Draw
4. Rapid Shot
5. AWT Feat > Versatile Training
6. Ricochet Toss
7. Iron Will
8. Improved Critical
9. Critical Focus + WT II > AWT > Armed Bravery
10. AWT Feat > Trained Throw
11. Deadly Aim
12. Improved Precise Strike
and so on.
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On a side note, I did some napkin math on a Heavy Shield using fighter who spends a modest portion of his level 20 Wealth By Level. Against a CR 19 red dragon, he actually has a higher than 50% chance of dodging as long as he has the expected stuff: 14ish base Dex, +5 mythril full plate, Necklace, Shield, Ring, Belt with 6 Dex, Dodge and Shield Mastery feats.Most people for get to add Defender of the Society, which is another +1 AC easily obtained.
Also, I personally prefer going with a Light Shield + Crane Style feats.
I've actually toyed with the idea of a TWF Fighter who uses a heavy shield in the main hand and a light weapon in the offhand. Then again, this might be for more of a Core thing. I'm not as keen on the more exotic options and I'm always worried that if I settle on a build it might get mixed up in later Errata. See also: Ultimate Combat.
Fighters could benefit from a better Will save or perhaps even better some nerfs to many of the not very fun spells and abilities which force Will saves. I think that the Background Skills option from Unchained is nice for Fighters since it lets them become more well rounded from a roleplaying perspective without eating up their limited skill ranks.
Spellcut makes me kind of sad that neither of my PCs with lots of Fighter levels have Weapon Training. The bonus isn’t that much higher than what I could get with a +5 cloak and Iron Will (which has the same feat cost), but Spellcut would also work for Reflex saves, so it seems like kind of a two for one. One of my PCs is in a party with no Resist Energy or Protection from Energy and has almost been killed by failing Reflex saves a couple of times within the past level.
Advanced Weapon Training makes me even more sad that I don't have Weapon Training. Trading it in on Rage with my Viking seemed like an OK option at the time, but if building the PC now I might take another path. At least Terrifying Howl finally worked really well last session...
@Rhedyn - I agree that the touch attack mechanic is not a great one. I have various ideas about ways to improve or eliminate it. They probably belong in some other thread though.
@Rosc - The Viking referenced above fights with a heavy shield and light hammer. I think a shortsword or kukri would be more effective in general due to the improved crit range, but the hammer is a roleplaying thing. Shield Slam is great fun, but only Mythic Power Attack prevents my damage from kind of sucking. I'd probably do just as much damage at a lower feat cost if I used just the shield, but once again RP concerns trumped mechanical effectiveness.
Something has been bugging me.
How many feats should a fighter be spending on all these patches? Seems like a lot. Especially with all those other "your fighter should have these" feats. Doesn't seem like there is a lot left for actually making a fighter, unless you are going for the standard Greatsword+Power attack routine.
2 |Bravery +1, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Blind-Fight
6 |Bravery +2, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Quick Draw
9 |Versatile Training(Intimidate, Diplomacy), Cut from the Air
10|Bravery +3, Improved Blind-Fight
11|Armor training, Smash from the Air
12|Pin down
13|Armed Bravery, Leadership
14|Bravery +4, Dazing Assault
15|Armor training, Antagonize
16|Greater Blind-Fight
17|Versatile Training(Bluff, Ride), Mounted Combat
18|Bravery +5, Ride-By Attack
19|Armor mastery, Spirited Charge
20|weapon mastery(GS), Trample
Remember you can pick AWT as a feat at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20.
A Fighter could have a total of 7 AWT options, 4 from feats, 3 from WT II, III and IV.
Remember you can pick AWT as a feat at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20.
A Fighter could have a total of 7 AWT options, 4 from feats, 3 from WT II, III and IV.
Which feat is that?
Advanced Weapon Training (Combat), grants you an Advanced Weapon Training option, can be picked once per 5 fighter levels, requires weapon training.
1 |Toughness, Intimidating Prowess, Combat Reflexes
2 |Bravery +1, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Advanced Weapon Training: Versatile Training(Intimidate, Diplomacy)
6 |Bravery +2, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Blind-Fight
9 |Versatile Training(Bluff, Ride), Cut from the Air
10|Bravery +3, Advanced Weapon Training: Armed Bravery
11|Armor training, Smash from the Air
12|Pin down
13|Defensive Weapon Training, Antagonize
14|Bravery +4, Dazing Assault
15|Armor training, Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Sacrifice
16|Weapon Focus
17|Fighter’s Reflexes, Greater Weapon Focus
18|Bravery +5, Weapon Specialization
19|Armor mastery, Greater Weapon Specialization
20|weapon mastery(GS), Advanced Weapon Training: Weapon Specialist
Hmmmmmm this is starting to look competent. Though this is mainly because the fighter can FINALLY trade feats for class features.
Wanna wait for Armor Master's Handbook with the rest of us now?
Wanna wait for Armor Master's Handbook with the rest of us now?
If I could trade 3-4 more feats for class features, PF fighters may start to be able to compare with soulknives or Aegi.
16 12 16 10 10 8 (no race selected)
Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex),
1. Form Mind Shield (Su), Form Mind Armaments, Shape Mind Armaments, throw mind blade, wild talent, Power Attack
2. Improved Mind Shield
3. Enhanced Mind Armaments +1, psychic strike +1d8, Full Enhancement
4. Improved Armor
5. quick draw, Powerful Strikes
6. Enhanced Mind Armaments +2, Wing Clip
7. psychic strike +2d8, Expand Shield
8. Enhanced Mind Armaments +3, Bladewind
9. Absorbing Blade
10. Trade Blows
11. Enhanced Mind Armaments +4, psychic strike +3d8, Reaper’s Blade
12. Improved Enhancement
13. Enhanced Mind Armaments +5, Knife to the Soul
14. Reflective Blade
15. psychic strike +4d8, Fire Blade
16. Enhanced Mind Armaments +6, Bladestorm
17. Lightning Blade
18. Enhanced Mind Armaments +7, Ice Blade
19. psychic strike +5d8, Thunder Blade
20. mind blade mastery, Whiplash
1 |Power Attack, Toughened Suit
2 |
3 |Quick Suit
4 |
5 |Rapid Augmentation
6 |
7 |Vital Strike
8 |
9 |Extra Customization
10|
11|Improved Vital Strike
12|
13|Extra Customization
14|
15|Extra Customization
16|
17|Greater Vital Strike
18|
19|Extra Customization
20|
10 14 14 10 16 10 (no race selected)
Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex),
1. form mind blade, shape mind blade,throw mind blade, Psionic Talent, Power Attack, Up the Walls
2. Focused Offense
3. Enhanced mind blade +1, Combat Slide, Force Screen
4. Focused Defense
5. Psionic Meditation, Enhanced mind blade +2, quick draw, Vigor
6. Mind Daggers
7. Enhanced mind blade +3, Weapon Special, Inertial Armor
8. Bladewind
9. Enhanced mind blade +4, Fire Blade, Precognition, Offensive
10. Ice Blade
11. Enhanced mind blade +5, Lightning Blade, Precognition, Defensive
12. Improved Enhancement
13. Enhanced mind blade +6, Toppling Strike
14. Multiple Throw, Precognition, Tactical
15. Enhanced mind blade + 7, Improved Toppling Strike
16. Bladestorm
17. Enhanced mind blade +8, Additional Configurations, Prescience, Offensive
18. Trade Blows
19. Enhanced mind blade +9, Wing Clip
20. mind blade mastery, Thunder Blade
Why would you take it to mean base saving throw when it says total saving throw? its pretty explicit
Thus "first read". Shockingly, my first instinct was to assume that the feat did something useful.
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Why would you take it to mean base saving throw when it says total saving throw? its pretty explicitThus "first read". Shockingly, my first instinct was to assume that the feat did something useful.
Well that was just silly now, wasn't it?
Remember you can pick AWT as a feat at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20.
A Fighter could have a total of 7 AWT options, 4 from feats, 3 from WT II, III and IV.
If you are using the Weapon Master fighter archetype, you can take AWT feats as FIghter Bonus Combat feats.
Which means you can start grabbing AWT feats at level 3, and at level 4 even retrain your level 1 feat to an AWT feat! And actually get a decent array of them before level 10, while they are actually desired and useful.
And you can end up with 16 of them (using General feats at level 5 and 15). You'd be limited in what you can grab with versatility, since you only have one weapon group ever, and only one weapon...but since most fighters only use one weapon, it shouldn't be a problem.
Spellcut is slightly better then normal saves + Magic in most cases, the +5 resistance cloak at 10th is a little extreme. Yes, it can also be used with reflex and fort saves that don't get an Armed Bravery bonus. However, the fact it works on two saves is balanced by the fact it only works against magic - saves against non-magical effects gain no benefit from the feat (such as Intimidate checks!). Note that even if your saves are PENALIZED, BAB replaces it. So you could dump a fighter's Will for build points, be cursed, and still get the full BAB to Will. Bonuses and penalties are BOTH not carried over.
==Aelryinth
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Remember you can pick AWT as a feat at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20.
A Fighter could have a total of 7 AWT options, 4 from feats, 3 from WT II, III and IV.
If you are using the Weapon Master fighter archetype, you can take AWT feats as FIghter Bonus Combat feats.
Which means you can start grabbing AWT feats at level 3, and at level 4 even retrain your level 1 feat to an AWT feat! And actually get a decent array of them before level 10, while they are actually desired and useful.
And you can end up with 16 of them (using General feats at level 5 and 15). You'd be limited in what you can grab with versatility, since you only have one weapon group ever, and only one weapon...but since most fighters only use one weapon, it shouldn't be a problem.
Spellcut is slightly better then normal saves + Magic in most cases, the +5 resistance cloak at 10th is a little extreme. Yes, it can also be used with reflex and fort saves that don't get an Armed Bravery bonus. However, the fact it works on two saves is balanced by the fact it only works against magic - saves against non-magical effects gain no benefit from the feat (such as Intimidate checks!). Note that even if your saves are PENALIZED, BAB replaces it. So you could dump a fighter's Will for build points, be cursed, and still get the full BAB to Will. Bonuses and penalties are BOTH not carried over.
==Aelryinth
The feat prevents picking it up at 3rd. But retraining at 4th for two still works.
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Here, a list of the current PFS-legal archetypes and their functions:
Archer: Ranged Fighter. Notably able to preform combat maneuvers at range.
Armor master: Armor focused fighter. Mostly useless against magic, but strong against physical attacks.
Brawler: Close Weapon Group specialist. Good grapple bonuses. Notably a solid option for an Improved Unarmed Strike fighter.
Aldori Swordlord: Aldori dueling sword specialist. Focuses on heavy use of full defensive and full offensive actions. Bonuses to Disarm.
Cad: A fighter version of a rogue. Disarm, Dirty trick and Steal maneuvers. Rogue class skills and improvised weapon feats.
Calistrian Hunter: Bleeding effect and debuff focused fighter. Tracker fighter.
Corsair: Cleaving fighter. Alternate armor training rules which negate penalties to swim and acrobatics for armor. Replaces very little on the fighter.
Crossbowman: Ranged Fighter. Sniper/readied action focused. By comparison to the Archer, this class benefits, and requires, less strength.
Dragoon: Lance fighter. Focus on being able to fight both mounted and dismounted. Area buffer (banner ability).
Drill Sergeant: Teamwork fighter. Shared Teamwork feats and shared weapon group bonuses. Replaces very little on the fighter.
Druman Blackjacket: Elitist fighter. Most of the bonuses are limited unless the party contains multiple fighters with the same archetype. Notably a high will save fighter.
Eldrich Guardian: Familiar Fighter. Shared feats between familiar and fighter. Notably adds use magic device, perception, and spellcraft as class feats.
Free-hand Fighter: Single 1-handed melee weapon (and no shield) specialist. Notably a solid option for improved unarmed strike.
Lore Warden: Intelligence fighter. Solid bonuses to fighter skills, plus an impressive bonus to generic CMB and CMD.
Martial Master: Feat Swapping Fighter. Good option for fighters that want to be overly specialized in several areas.
Mobile Fighter: A well named archetype, as this one focuses on being able to move while being a fighter.
Phalanx Soldier: Spear/polearm + shield fighter. Brace weapon specialist. A good support fighter.
Polearm Master: Reach weapon specialist, specifically spears and polearms.
Dawnflower Dervish: Charge Specialist. Replaces very little on the fighter.
Roughrider: Mounted fighter. Notably doesn't gain a companion mount.
Savage Warrior: Natural Attack specialist. Unlike ranger natural fighter, doesn't provide any natural weapons. Not actually a very viable class. Strongly suggest the Unarmed Fighter, instead.
Sensate: Reflex fighter. Notably grants a modified evasion which functions in full armor.
Shield fighter: As title, focuses on Shields and use of shield bashes. Notably less impressive with Tower or Buckler shields.
Siegebreaker: Bull rush and Overrun maneuver Fighter.
Tactician: Teamwork Fighter. More support focused than the Drill Sergeant. Notably gains increased skill points and additional class skills.
Rondelero Duelist: Falcata and Buckler Specialist. Only viable if exclusively using these weapons.
Thunderstriker: Two handed weapon + buckler Specialist. An odd variant of a two weapon fighter, which focuses on buckler shield bash paired with a two-handed weapon.
Titan fighter: Oversized Two-handed weapon specialist. Enables use of certain maneuvers against larger opponents than normally allowed.
Tower Shield Specialist: AC specialist. Highest AC and Touch AC fighter archetype.
Two-handed Fighter: As title, focuses on Two-handed weapons. Heavy damage output fighter.
Two-Weapon Warrior: Rapid attack Fighter. Focuses on paired and double weapons.
Unarmed Fighter: Focus on Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapons, and Natural Attacks. Although archetype removes medium+heavy armor and shield proficiencies, none of the class bonuses actually require unarmored fighters, so it is notable that this class can easily be upgraded into an armored unarmed strike build.
Unbreakable Fighter: Enduring Fighter. This one has no obvious applications, you'd need a very specific role to make it useful.
Ustalavic Duelist: Light Blade Specialist. Special bonuses for while unarmored or light armor, with one-handed piercing weapon paired with an empty hand. Intelligence boosted.
Viking: Raging shield fighter. A lesser barbarian with more feat access.
Weapon Master: A specific weapon fighter. One of the hardest classes to build, as it focuses all the fighter bonuses into a single specific weapon (weapon, not weapon group) that cannot be changed. It is very notable that the weapon is allowed to be any weapon, so this can be a ranged or melee archetype, depending on the weapon selected. It is also noted that the archetype doesn't grant proficiency with the weapon, so exotic weapons require additional feats.
I would give fighters weapon training starting at level 1 & scaling normally, and remove the level restriction on the advanced weapon training feat so you can take that at level 1 as well (something like fighter's finesse would be fun to play with, but really frustrating to have to wait 5 levels for). Seriously why is the fighter the only class to not get a hit / damage buff at level 1? I would also like the fighter to get at least 4sp per level. I'd like martials in general to have more skill points than casters due to their reliance on the mundane to solve problems.
With that, I'm actually relatively happy with the fighter when 1) accompanied by the weapon master's handbook and combat stamina and 2) using spheres of power. I'm quite excited to see what the armor master's handbook will bring us, and expect similar things for trading armor training or otherwise being able to use armor in interesting ways.
They don't want tog ive weapon training at level 1 because it makes the class too dip-worthy - a feat AND weapon training?
In my own fighter build, I have weapon focus do +1 th, and fighters get a +1 dmg in their primary weapon group at level 1...not nearly as good as +1/+1. BUT...weapon Focus doubles all weapon training bonuses for fighters (i.e. this is Weapon Spec). So at first level, IF you take Weapon focus in a weapon, the fighter can end up with...+1/+2. But you MUST spend a feat on weapon focus to do so.
i.e. it basically eats the fighter bonus feat.
and not coincdentally, is exactly equal to the bonus fighters could get at level 1 in 1/2e (although not with additional attacks).
==Aelryinth
Isn't that the penalty of having a class based on choosing things? If you give free choice at level 1, it's going to be dip worthy. This is more the fault of the free bonus feat than weapon training (which gives the same bonus as, say, the slayer's studied target. Advantage of not requiring an action, disadvantage of only working with a select group of weapons).
Perhaps fighters shouldn't get a bonus feat at 1, and instead get weapon training and something else. Other classes get away with this by giving other things that only scale with class level (track, trap finding) or things that are comparable to a feat, just without the choice (barbarian fast movement is fleet, twice, with less restriction, unchained rogue gets weapon finesse). Problem with this route is fighters don't really have anything discrete other than feats. All their other abilities other than capstones scale with fighter levels.
But really, if a class wants to sacrifice its spell casting, its skill points, its saves, and its class feature progression for a feat and a +1 to hit & damage with a weapon group....is that really that big an issue? I mean saying it makes the fighter too dip worthy implies (as I know you believe) that taking further levels in fighter is a waste, so improving its scaling class features (armor training gives ac rather than max dex bonus, bravery to all will saves, etc) would let the class be dip worthy, but would also mean taking the class down the line is not a waste.
I am 100% certain that Fighters should not get a free feat at level 1. Instead, they should get 4 + skills per level, and a scaling feature that reduces the penalties of self-imposed abilities such as TWF, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Dazing Assault, and so on.
'Dip' tends to mean 1-3 levels, Ranishe. Moving the bonus feat away, or making it a dedicated power, is a tradeoff, naturally enough. But if the tradeoff is a flat combat damage bonus, it's still dip bait.
Making someone take Weapon Focus in my version essentially takes the feat choice away from them if they want to dip the build, and the good stuff always scales with level instead of being a fixed bonus.
But, the fighter is indeed the only martial without a damage bonus at level 1, and it is VERY annoying.
==Aelryinth
But, the fighter is indeed the only martial without a damage bonus at level 1, and it is VERY annoying.
I think the Fighter's weapon training should just start at 1st level, replacing the 1st level bonus feat. That way he gets a 1st level damage/attack boosting feature, he still has a ton of feats, and Weapon Training and bonus feats follow a logical progression (1st and every 4 levels thereafter, every even level).
I think the Fighter's weapon training should just start at 1st level, replacing the 1st level bonus feat. That way he gets a 1st level damage/attack boosting feature, he still has a ton of feats, and Weapon Training and bonus feats follow a logical progression (1st and every 4 levels thereafter, every even level).But, the fighter is indeed the only martial without a damage bonus at level 1, and it is VERY annoying.
It would still be too strong and dippable.
Besides, numbers and early levels aren't where the fighter needs buffing. The fighter already is already rather good at early levels. It's the later levels where he feels lackluster.
Why does the fighter need+1 at level one. At that level the feat is stronger.
Why does the fighter need+1 at level one. At that level the feat is stronger.
Agreed; not having any damage boosts at first level isn't a big deal. At that level a warrior is a perfectly acceptable DPR class. Your class features don't start to matter until ~5th level where the gap between a PC and NPC starts to widen further than the NPC can jump, and that's when Weapon Training and all the goodies that now come with that come online.
Why does the fighter need+1 at level one. At that level the feat is stronger.Agreed; not having any damage boosts at first level isn't a big deal. At that level a warrior is a perfectly acceptable DPR class. Your class features don't start to matter until ~5th level where the gap between a PC and NPC starts to widen further than the NPC can jump, and that's when Weapon Training and all the goodies that now come with that come online.
Maybe? A barbarian gets a +2 to hit & damage while raging at level 1. A Slayer gets +1 to hit & damage at the cost of a move action (which matters less when you don't have full attacks to use). A paladin, while more restricted in uses, gets a far more meaningful hit & damage buff. Rogues get sneak attack for an average +3 damage if you can make use of it via positioning for flanks. Magus can use arcana to add +1 hit and damage for likely most fights throughout the day if you have decent int....this isn't so much an issue of "well the fighter can make do without" and more an issue of "why is the fighter the only one left out?" especially since fighting is the core of his class.
Maybe? A barbarian gets a +2 to hit & damage while raging at level 1. A Slayer gets +1 to hit & damage at the cost of a move action (which matters less when you don't have full attacks to use). A paladin, while more restricted in uses, gets a far more meaningful hit & damage buff. Rogues get sneak attack for an average +3 damage if you can make use of it via positioning for flanks. Magus can use arcana to add +1 hit and damage for likely most fights throughout the day if you have decent int....this isn't so much an issue of "well the fighter can make do without" and more an issue of "why is the fighter the only one left out?" especially since fighting is the core of his class.Why does the fighter need+1 at level one. At that level the feat is stronger.Agreed; not having any damage boosts at first level isn't a big deal. At that level a warrior is a perfectly acceptable DPR class. Your class features don't start to matter until ~5th level where the gap between a PC and NPC starts to widen further than the NPC can jump, and that's when Weapon Training and all the goodies that now come with that come online.
All of those abilities either have limited use, require special circumstances to trigger, or need action economy sacrifice to use. And the magus's arcane pool doesn't give him an edge over the fighter at 1st level -- it just (kinda) makes up for a lower BAB and inability to get Power Attack at 1st level. Unlike those classes, the fighter gets a bonus feat at 1st level. That's kind of a big deal since it puts the fighter a step further than all other classes through the feat tree at that level. And the fighter can get the best combat feats in the game. Not to mention all the sexy stuff that came out of the Weapon Master's Handbook. One of them being a feat that gives the fighter a +1 damage bonus.
What is wrong with the fighter being a good dip class?
One way to make a fighter more interesting is to give them an ability to get more utility out of magic items. Magic armour gives a bonus to saves as well as to AC for instance.
Among SEVERAL other changes I've made to fighters in my home games, here's what I've done with weapon training. This change (in addition to all the others) has been in testing for several months now, and has performed quite well and enabled several interesting encounters/choices for our fighter.
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter is always considered armed, even when unarmed, and the fighter’s penalties on attack rolls for using a broken, improvised, non-proficient, or wrongly-sized weapon are halved. Furthermore, the fighter gains a +1 bonus on all attack and damage rolls he makes while using either a manufactured weapon, an improvised weapon, a natural weapon, or an unarmed strike. This bonus also applies to any CMB checks the fighter makes with the aforementioned weapons, to his CMD when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against his weapons or shields, and on saving throws he makes against spells and effects that target his weapons or shields (e.g., grease, heat metal, shatter, warp wood, etc.). At 5th level, and every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), these bonuses increase by +1.
When the fighter learns a combat feat that applies to a specific weapon or weapon type, such as Weapon Focus, the feat instead applies to all weapons of the same weapon group. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Furthermore, if a fighter spends at least 72 hours using an exotic weapon, he gains proficiency with that weapon.
Starting at 5th level, whenever a fighter deals damage with a manufactured, improvised, or natural weapon, he may alter the type of damage dealt by the weapon to bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage (GM discretion based on the weapon).
At 1st level, my homebrew fighter gains Combat Stamina (Unchained feat), Endurance (feat), a Fighter Talent (my fighter is talent-based, mostly abilities from existing fighter archetypes), and a Fighting Style (typically a free feat that ignores prerequisites or other minor ability that makes certain builds/styles more viable; Precise Shot for free, Two-Weapon Fighting for free, Agile Maneuvers + Weapon Finesse for free, Bodyguard feat for free, Use Strength to determine AC instead of Dex, monk unarmed damage progression, etc.). I also give the fighter one free exotic weapon/shield proficiency, which can be exchanged for the Weapon Focus feat if fighter is the character's favored class.
For perspective, my fighter player (all my players, really) are not min/max optimizers nor chronic class dippers. All of their characters are heavily concept driven, so they only multi-class if it'll help them flesh out their concept, which is rare; they usually stay within a single class.
Right now, my fighter gains a talent at every odd level, and a bonus feat at every even level, but I'm toying with the idea of moving Talents to every even level, dropping bonus feats, and allowing them to take bonus feats in place of talents, if desired. Right now, fighter bonus feats are not limited to combat feats, and the fighter can exchange a bonus feat once per day. I'm also condensing feat chains to eliminate feat tax, which is why I'm even remotely considering dropping fighter bonus feats.
I condense combat feats for 'fighters only.' This means other classes can use feats to get watered-down fighter abilities, and must make huge investments to get on par with something a fighter gets easily and automatically as he levels.
==Aelryinth
I think the Fighter's weapon training should just start at 1st level, replacing the 1st level bonus feat. That way he gets a 1st level damage/attack boosting feature, he still has a ton of feats, and Weapon Training and bonus feats follow a logical progression (1st and every 4 levels thereafter, every even level).But, the fighter is indeed the only martial without a damage bonus at level 1, and it is VERY annoying.
It would still be too strong and dippable.
Besides, numbers and early levels aren't where the fighter needs buffing. The fighter already is already rather good at early levels. It's the later levels where he feels lackluster.
What I said is in no way intended as a "buff". Just a change to make the Fighter's progressions logical.
If I were to "buff" the Fighter, I would make Bravery apply to all will saves (could be a problem with VMC) and give him two more skill ranks per level and a few more class skills, but I would like to give +2 skill ranks per level to all non-casters on top of that anyway.
I'd like to chime in with Boomerang Nebula in asking what would be problematic about the fighter becoming a somewhat more dippable class via granting weapon training starting at 1st level? I mean, the class is so generic in its flavor, so what would the issue be if the percentage of martial-focused builds with 1 fighter level at the top went up slightly?
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The hotfix I'm playing with in my home game is letting fighters get a free extra attack (potential 1 per attack they can make) that can be used only to perform combat maneuvers. It encourages players to try those options and gives them more combat utility without completely making the feats obsolete since the feats still grant the AoO safety and boosted chance to hit.
Also it feels more appropriate to have every hit from a mace, club, or sword potentially damage the targets armor instead of just specially chosen attempts chosen instead of damaging the target.
What is wrong with the fighter being a good dip class?
One way to make a fighter more interesting is to give them an ability to get more utility out of magic items. Magic armour gives a bonus to saves as well as to AC for instance.
Many reasons. One of them being that the fighter is already a good dip class. If the fighter should receive buffs, then it should be buffs that make it more worthwhile for 20 levels, not making them an even better dip class.
As for your suggestion, there's already feats that do that.
All of those abilities either have limited use, require special circumstances to trigger, or need action economy sacrifice to use. And the magus's arcane pool doesn't give him an edge over the fighter at 1st level -- it just (kinda) makes up for a lower BAB and inability to get Power Attack at 1st level. Unlike those classes, the fighter gets a bonus feat at 1st level. That's kind of a big deal since it puts the fighter a step further than all other classes through the feat tree at that level. And the fighter can get the best combat feats in the game. Not to mention all the sexy stuff that came out of the Weapon Master's Handbook. One of them being a feat that gives the fighter a +1 damage bonus.
All those, while being limited in use, are also more powerful during their use than weapon training. I figure the "always up but small bonus" vs "occasionally up but large bonus" more or less balance itself out.
However I was still thinking about this lying in bed for hours last night, and it occurred to me: A move action to get the slayer's studied target isn't a big cost at low levels, but is at high levels. A paladin's smite only is effective if you have charisma, and similarly intelligence for the magus' arcana. Barbarian rage is also likely for only one fight during the day with only one barbarian level. The important thing about all these is that, taken as a dip, they're poor abilities. A paladin would require one be a charisma based class to get any real effect out of the single smite per day. A multi-classed slayer would lose a full round attack for the measly +1/+1. Magus requires a second int based class, etc. Weapon training has no such restriction, making it a powerful multi-class ability where the others are not.
So I can see that weapon training makes the fighter a very nice thing to dip. So, what if we used the stamina system instead? Make it fighter exclusive, and base its points on fighter level + con mod instead of just bab, given at level 1 + the combat feat? That would give the fighter a way to fight better at level 1 without a dip being much more desirable than it is now.
Use Strength to determine AC instead of Dex
I wouldn't do this. MAD characters be MAD, but I don't like allowing everything to be SAD, which is why I hate dex to damage...A character's attributes should help determine what they're specialization is. They shouldn't get a plethora of capabilities for free from one stat. If you want AC, take dex. If you want to stack AC but still hit, be an archer or take weapon finesse. But you should get everything out of a single attribute.
All of their characters are heavily concept driven, so they only multi-class if it'll help them flesh out their concept
Here's what you do: Dex focused fighter, take 5 levels of fighter with feats for two weapon fighting & combat reflexes so you can (finally) get weapon training, and take it in pole-arms. Advanced training feat for fighter's finesse. Two levels of titain mauler barbarian. Dual wield pole-arms. Laugh because it looks hilarious, cry because you can't actually do anything that appears to be like your character concept with any semblance of effectiveness (not that it really has much at the end either) until level 7 because you need level 5 for fighter's finesse...
The move action to study targets is a big deal. Every time you switch targets (or you kill one of them) you have to waste a move action.