What is wrong with the fighter being a good dip class?
One way to make a fighter more interesting is to give them an ability to get more utility out of magic items. Magic armour gives a bonus to saves as well as to AC for instance.
Many reasons. One of them being that the fighter is already a good dip class. If the fighter should receive buffs, then it should be buffs that make it more worthwhile for 20 levels, not making them an even better dip class.
As for your suggestion, there's already feats that do that.
I agree that the fighter should get more abilities (preferably non combat ones) as they level up to make them more interesting at every level. I don't agree that they can't be improved as a dip class as well. In my games the fighter is the most common type of hero, so there should be a strong incentive to want to play one or a fighter multiclass.
What is the name of the feat(s) you are referring to? I would be curious to see if they do what I have in mind.
Well, yes, obviously changes beyond Weapon Training starting at 1st level are needed, but I would love that in there in the final fixed version.
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What is wrong with the fighter being a good dip class?
One way to make a fighter more interesting is to give them an ability to get more utility out of magic items. Magic armour gives a bonus to saves as well as to AC for instance.
Many reasons. One of them being that the fighter is already a good dip class. If the fighter should receive buffs, then it should be buffs that make it more worthwhile for 20 levels, not making them an even better dip class.
As for your suggestion, there's already feats that do that.
I agree that the fighter should get more abilities (preferably non combat ones) as they level up to make them more interesting at every level. I don't agree that they can't be improved as a dip class as well. In my games the fighter is the most common type of hero, so there should be a strong incentive to want to play one or a fighter multiclass.
What is the name of the feat(s) you are referring to? I would be curious to see if they do what I have in mind.
It's usually unwise in game design to make something way better in something they're already really good at. There's already strong incentive to play a fighter as a dip class. It makes no sense to increase that incentive.
There's feats in Weapon Master's Handbook that you cast spells from magic items depending on its school of magic. For example, there's one feat that let's you dimension door if you have a magic item with the conjuration school. The prerequisites for these feats rely on your base Fortitude save and some modest amount of ranks in Use Magic Device. So pretty ideal for a fighter or other martial.
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It's very easy to fix the fighter problem. Have all the people who complain about them actually play one.
I think my main line of thinking is that making weapon training start at 1st level is not something that should be done in order for the fighter to become a more attractive dip option. Rather, the main benefit would be that you would get an attack/damage boost at 1st level like every other martial, and that you could also start picking up advanced weapon training options at 5th level rather than 9th level (the latter seems way too late for me). With this in mind, fighters becoming more dippable is more like an acceptable by-product which I consider to be worth it to gain the two benefits stated above.
@Vrog: I've built my fair share of fighters. Then I found them so non-dynamic and boring that I started building my own classes instead. Granted, this was before the various Toolbox books and the WMG came out, not to mention a few other goodies spangled across a variety of splat books. I think the fighter is currently quite near being fixed, in my book, save for bumping skill ranks, adding a few class skills and giving WT starting at 1st level.
I think my main line of thinking is that making weapon training start at 1st level is not something that should be done in order for the fighter to become a more attractive dip option. Rather, the main benefit would be that you would get an attack/damage boost at 1st level like every other martial, and that you could also start picking up advanced weapon training options at 5th level rather than 9th level (the latter seems way too late for me). With this in mind, fighters becoming more dippable is more like an acceptable by-product which I consider to be worth it to gain the two benefits stated above.
But the fighter can already gain a combat boost at 1st level with the combat feat they choose. And it makes sense the awesome options "turn on" at 5th level and higher because that's when the fighter starts to fall off.
I agree that cool things should turn on at 5th level. I don't consider weapon training, by itself, to be a "cool thing". I do however consider advanced weapon training to be cool, which is why I want it available starting at 5th level. The point I'm trying to make is that the fighter doesn't "need" a +1 to attack and damage with a single weapon group at 1st level (although it would definitely be a nice and not OP boost), but rather that it's fine for the fighter to gain said boost in order to open up AWT at 5th level.
I mean, I would be fine if all you got at 1st level was the bonus to CMD vs. disarm and sunder attempts, as long as you were still allowed to start selecting advanced weapon training at 5th level. Personally, I don't think the dipping factor is enough of an issue to necessitate this, but if that is one's primary worry I think this would solve that issue nicely.
Another idea could be to simply grant both the +1 to atk and dmg, as well as one free advanced weapon training option, at 5th level. At subsequent levels (9th, 13th and 17th) the fighter has to choose between the +1 or the AWT option. This would create some complications with archetypes that trade out WT though.
I agree that cool things should turn on at 5th level. I don't consider weapon training, by itself, to be a "cool thing". I do however consider advanced weapon training to be cool, which is why I want it available starting at 5th level.
The fighter can get Advanced Training at 5th level...In fact, a weapon master can get it at 4th level and gain multiple advanced trainings at the cost of bonus feats.
The Weapon Master's ability to gain AWT is great, but really, there's only 6-8 feats he's going to grab.
After all, you can't grab versatility for more skill points and class skills if you don't have multiple weapon groups, etc.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, sorry, I should've clarified, I meant all Fighters, not just Weapon Masters. There are way too many fun archetypes that trade out armor training, and I want those fighters to be able to get AWT at 5th level too, as it were.
It's very easy to fix the fighter problem. Have all the people who complain about them actually play one.What about the people who did play fighter and are complaining because it's boring as crap compared to basically every class that does what it does?
See, that's what Skyreaver is talking about. Most suggestions on fixing the fighter focus on making him better at what he already does, not making him more fun to play.
It's one of the many reasons I consider nearly all discussions about fixing the fighter as incredibly unproductive.
Yeah, sorry, I should've clarified, I meant all Fighters, not just Weapon Masters. There are way too many fun archetypes that trade out armor training, and I want those fighters to be able to get AWT at 5th level too, as it were.
ALL fighters can get Advanced Weapon Training at 5th level. Do you own the Weapon Master's Handbook?
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I think it's more the case that there are several different discussions going on at once. There are a few simple tweaks (WT at 1st level, 4 + Int skill ranks, Perception and Sense Motive as class skills) that can be done in order to "fix" the things about the fighter that are just annoying and make them less fun to play. A lot of other "fixes" I think have slowly but surely already come about via splat books and other expansions. As in, with AWT, archetypes, new feats, etc., the fighter nowadays seems more or less as fun and viable as the barbarian, ranger or slayer. Possibly it could use a few more boosts, but it's not far off the mark.
Anything beyond that, is my impression, tends to become a broader discussion about making full BAB classes as a whole more versatile and powerful, to put them more on par with classes that have greater access to magic. That's not a problem unique to the fighter, though.
@Cyrad: Oh, yes, I do, sorry. I seem to be expressing myself vaguely repeatedly, I'm afraid. Apologies. I know AWT is available via feats; I'm talking about being able to exchange the often pointless weapon training weapon group expansions for it, not having to sacrifice feat slots in order to get it. I realize I've not been laying that out clearly. Sorry for the confusion.
It's very easy to fix the fighter problem. Have all the people who complain about them actually play one.What about the people who did play fighter and are complaining because it's boring as crap compared to basically every class that does what it does?See, that's what Skyreaver is talking about. Most suggestions on fixing the fighter focus on making him better at what he already does, not making him more fun to play.
It's one of the many reasons I consider nearly all discussions about fixing the fighter as incredibly unproductive.
Serious discussions on fighters are exactly the opposite of what you are positing.
They ignore the combat roles the fighter fills just fine (and which most people focus on when they say 'there's no problems with the fighter!') and focus on EVERYTHING ELSE.
==Aelryinth
But the fighter can already gain a combat boost at 1st level with the combat feat they choose. And it makes sense the awesome options "turn on" at 5th level and higher because that's when the fighter starts to fall off.
And the thing that upsets me with this is every other class gets their combat boost AND something else (barbarians fast movement, many classes 2 good saves which is like taking iron will / lightning reflexes, etc). The fighter doesn't. He gets X, everyone gets X+1.
It's very easy to fix the fighter problem. Have all the people who complain about them actually play one.
Am doing so, and feeling like I'm both less capable than the gunslinger & vivisectionist in the party, and giving up a lot to be so, but that's also because I'm not playing that optimal a build. However I find myself comparable in combat with them, and look at the slayer class thinking "I'd be better at combat, and everything else, if I just played a slayer". Because of slayer talents, and assuming one feat is used on weapon focus, a slayer can have almost the same number of combat feats as a fighter through level 13 (down by 1) with the advantage of making use of ranger's combat feats ignoring prerequisites. Plus two good saves instead of 1, and 6 sp / level instead of 2. You lose armor and weapon training, but gain studied target & sneak attack. Theorycrafting wise, it seems a slayer is a comparable combatant to a fighter, but with more things to do outside of combat....Also they get their hit / damage bonus at level 1, so there's that too.
Sometimes I feel like, if fighters really are meant to be the "combat feat guys", they should gain combat feats in exactly the same manner as wizards gain spells, possibly even including the ability to buy "combat manuals" (akin to scrolls) from which to learn new ones, preparing different combat feats every day via drilling and training and gaining two free combat feats every level. Possibly tone the number of feats (in comparison to spells) down a little to account for the fact that feats don't come neatly packaged into "levels".
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Sometimes I feel like, if fighters really are meant to be the "combat feat guys", they should gain combat feats in exactly the same manner as wizards gain spells, possibly even including the ability to buy "combat manuals" (akin to scrolls) from which to learn new ones, preparing different combat feats every day via drilling and training and gaining two free combat feats every level. Possibly tone the number of feats (in comparison to spells) down a little to account for the fact that feats don't come neatly packaged into "levels".
Aye, I made that suggestion ages ago from an observation by Sean K. Reynolds on the subjec. He remarked that a big disparity between the wizard and fighter stems from a wizard player being able to essentially rebuild his character on a daily basis whereas the fighter is shoehorned into a single build and is punished for vertasility. It led to SKR designing the brawler's martial flexibility and making feats work like spells in his Five Moons RPG.
I took the observation to heart and currently have a class baking in the oven that can create "combat styles" out of combat feats. For example, they can have a combat style with Power Attack+Cleave and a combat style with Point Blank Shot + Precise Aim.
A simple houserule could allow any class with bonus combat feats to retrain their last bonus feat X times per day, similar to how the Inquisitor can retrain his last teamwork bonus feat.
Yeah, that's basically the sort of approach I'm taking with my own homebrew martial classes as well. It would be a simple way of retooling the fighter. I really like the basic design of the brawler (although I consider the class as a whole to be underpowered); the one thing that always stuck in my craw about it was that it took something that should've been a fighter class feature all along and made that the main gimick of the MMA class.
This is my take on it... Complete with archetypes, new feats and even a FAQ. XD
Also, this. Because good Fighters deserve good weapons. ;)
Just a quick observation, Lemmy.
The rule of thumb on class skills is equal to twice skill points. If an Int-based class, all Knowledge counts as one skill. I think you are a little over that and should trim it back.
I sidestepped the issue by letting the characters pick the skills they wanted as they went up in level via the Bravery ladder.
Also, your Bravery is basically equal to a good Will save. You do use it for some other abilities, but, ?. You'd be just as well off giving him a good will save, and making Bravery something that grants the fear bonus on top (instead of doubling it.)
==Aelryinth
It's usually unwise in game design to make something way better in something they're already really good at. There's already strong incentive to play a fighter as a dip class. It makes no sense to increase that incentive.
There's feats in Weapon Master's Handbook that you cast spells from magic items depending on its school of magic. For example, there's one feat that let's you dimension door if you have a magic item with the conjuration school. The prerequisites for these feats rely on your base Fortitude save and some modest amount of ranks in Use Magic Device. So pretty ideal for a fighter or other martial.
Thanks mate, sounds like what I am looking for. I will check that out.
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advanced weapon training helps all of my issues, it just takes a while to get them. Better saves, more skills, team work, and protecting others....if the armor master's handbook delivers the fighter will be very fun past low levels. Many classes take time to build up options so this shouldn't hurt to much.
Dot
Prepare for incoming wall of text.
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advanced weapon training helps all of my issues, it just takes a while to get them. Better saves, more skills, team work, and protecting others....if the armor master's handbook delivers the fighter will be very fun past low levels. Many classes take time to build up options so this shouldn't hurt to much.
IF some AWT options were available at level 2-4, I'd consider this valid. Having to wait until level 5 to actually take a cool feat-level ability from AWT just makes me shake my head. Shall we differ all rage, rage talents, smites,a nd favored enemies until level 5 to even the scale?
==Aelryinth
That is probably a good point. I hardly think it would hurt to just allow taking AWT options via feats starting at 2nd level, possibly with the addendum that you can only take them with your bonus feats, not with your regular level feats, but otherwise can take them as often as you like.
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advanced weapon training helps all of my issues, it just takes a while to get them. Better saves, more skills, team work, and protecting others....if the armor master's handbook delivers the fighter will be very fun past low levels. Many classes take time to build up options so this shouldn't hurt to much.IF some AWT options were available at level 2-4, I'd consider this valid. Having to wait until level 5 to actually take a cool feat-level ability from AWT just makes me shake my head. Shall we differ all rage, rage talents, smites,a nd favored enemies until level 5 to even the scale?
==Aelryinth
Yeah i agree with you that it is a long wait. Hopefully advanced armor training can happen at level 3...fighters are not outclassed at low levels so while less interesting they don't lag much. Archetypes help too as well as early feat selection. It is a decent year to play a fighter.
Edit: maybe a great year!
advanced weapon training helps all of my issues, it just takes a while to get them. Better saves, more skills, team work, and protecting others....if the armor master's handbook delivers the fighter will be very fun past low levels. Many classes take time to build up options so this shouldn't hurt to much.IF some AWT options were available at level 2-4, I'd consider this valid. Having to wait until level 5 to actually take a cool feat-level ability from AWT just makes me shake my head. Shall we differ all rage, rage talents, smites,a nd favored enemies until level 5 to even the scale?
==Aelryinth
This is my only issue with AWT too, especially for things that change how a build works like Fighter's Finesse, Versatile Training & Fighter's Tactics. All of these would make sense to get off the ground much earlier in the character's life.
Multi-classing is one way to fix the problem, or at least least decrease its affect on your fun. Here is my base Fighter I start with when building my characters. I make change to fit the game.
Half Elf with ancestral weapon, and fight and magus as favored classes
Magic trait Magical heritage, and combat trait armor expert
Starting Stats 20 point buy: str 15+2 race, dex 14, con 14, int 14, wis 12, cha 7
1. Unchained monk: dodge, improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, crane style, EWP(bastard sword)
2. Magus: spell combat, 1st level spells
3. Magus: spell strike, craft wondrous item
4. Magus: familiar, +1str
5. Magus: Power Attack, 2nd level spells, spell recall
6. Magus: Furious Focus
7. Magus: Improved Familiar, Snape dragon, Make Whole
8. Magus: Knowledge pool, Medium Armor, 3rd level spells, +1 str
9. Weapon Master Fighter: Combat Reflexes, One Handed Weapon Tricks
10. Weapon Master Fighter: Quick Draw
11. Weapon Master Fighter: weapon training (Bastard Sword), Cut from the Air
12. Eldritch Knight: Smash from the Air, +1 str
13. Eldritch Knight: Sacrifice Weapon
14. Eldritch Knight:
15. Eldritch Knight: Dimensional Agility, 4th level spells
16. Eldritch Knight: feat, +1 str
17. Eldritch Knight: feat
18. Eldritch Knight: 5th level spells
19. Eldritch Knight: feat
20. Eldritch Knight: feat, +1 str
This gives me BAB 18, 5th level spells, CL 17, counts as a 12th level fighter, ok saves, it is mostly online by Lv.7 fully by Lv.12 I will use frostbite and chill touch to increase damage. I can arcane weapon to add to hit at lower levels and to damage at higher levels. I can create most of my own gear, saving gold that can be used to fill in any holes that show up. I only have one dead level (14). As for mobility, low levels will use acrobatics, climb, swim and expedite retreat. Level 8 to level 14 will use fly. From level 15 up dimension door will be the way to go.
Main Weapon will be an Adamantine Bastard Sword with a rune of durability, +1 enchantment, then impervious added as soon as possible, next will be called, spell storing, and finally Smashing. After that depending on level increase the weapon enchantment or just cast greater magical weapon and use arcane weapon to top off the enchantment bonus.
As for armor, mithral breast plate with impervious added as soon as possible, increase enchantment to +3, Shadow, restful, comfort, glamered, spell storing, increase enchantment to +5, delving, and finally deathless.
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Can we stop having these threads now, the classes you all want to play are in the Path of War 3rd party book, fighters aren't ever going to be anything other than bland full attackers or a dip class for other builds.
Weapon Mastery & Armor Mastery Handbooks already fixed the fighter, they get stuff like +5 to ac for free, unrestricted bane starting at 5th level, options for gaining more skills points, increased DR, will save bonus = to their fort save. The only issue is that those books made pretty much every fighter archetype garbage compared to the base fighter because nothing is worth giving up weapon and armor training progression now.
Also very obvious to anyone, but gloves of dueling and mind buttressing armor are 2 required item purchases for fighters
Only problem with some of the things I listed is that armor specialization and mind buttressing armor are not society legal.
I would still agree that any class with even paladin spellcasting progression is going to have innately more utility than a fighter. But for doing sheer volumes of non specific damage fighters are stronger than ever. Even better lots of their prexisting defensive weaknesses are easier to mitigate than ever. Also put full skill point progression into UMD to add more utility. If you don't cast spells you should have maxed UMD pretty much as rule.
Archers are the most well rounded strongest martial in the game and their biggest problem is they have so many good feats. It's really worth noting Fighter archers come online faster than any other class even Rangers. Which is pretty big deal when you consider 90% of game-play revolves around 4-15 levels.