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I am unsure as to OP or not OP for kineticists. I tend to build powerful characters through an solid general knowledge of all options. I will share my PFS kineticist as a point of reference.
Male Tiefling - Demodand Kineticist (Earth, Earth) 7
N Medium
Init +4; Perception +11
DEFENSE
AC 18; Touch 12; Flat-Footed 10
HP 112; Non-Lethal 28
Fort +14 ; Ref +8 ; Will +4
DR 7/adamantine;
20% chance to negate crits, sneak;
Resist 7 electricity, fire, cold, acid | 10 negative
OFFENSE
Speed 20
Melee +10 Earth Blast (4d6+12, x2); B,S,P
Melee +10 Metal Blast (8d6+16, x2); B,S,P
Ranged +10 Earth Blast (4d6+16, x2); B,S,P
Ranged +10 Metal Blast (8d6+20, x2); B.S,P
STATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 27, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +7
Feats
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Elemental Blast), Extra Infusion
SQ
Basic Geokinesis, Kinetic Cover, Elemental Overflow +2, Kinetic Blade, Earth Walk, Flesh of Stone, Earth Climb, Extended Range, Earth Child, Infusion Specialization 1, Metakinesis (Empower), Internal Buffer 1, Tremorsense (UT), Impale
Gear
Belt of Con +4: , Cloak of Resist +1: , +1 Deathless Mith Chain Shirt:
Traits
Reactionary, Unscathed
I have had my kineticist called OP several times probably because he performs admirably as a tank. He doesn't hit all the time but does damage when he does. Often using ranged to provoke in melee combat for team benefit. And he has prevented saves due to not taking damage because of DR/adamantine.
Just thought I'd offer an actual char to the convo instead of a hypothetical one. Take of it what you will.
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I have been playing a Geokineticist in PFS recently (currently level 4), and he has been quite fun...does respectable damage for his level, has a few utility abilities (Kinetic cover saved our party some major headaches in one scenario). He doesn't hit as well as an energy based kineticist, but he also doesn't have to worry about SR and immunities.
He should stay useful throughout PFS levels. His damage and utility should scale well, especially past level 7 when he will take expanded earth for his second element choice.
He will never be as versatile or as powerful as a straight up 9 level caster, but I am fine with that.
If anyone wants to see my build plan for him, here it is:
Kineticist (Earth)
Race: Half-Orc
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Faction: Liberty's Edge
Str: 12
Dex: 17
Con: 17 (15+2 racial)
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
(+Con then +Dex)
Favored Class Bonus 1/6 wild talent every level
Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary
Racial Traits: Darkvision, Dusksight, Sacred Tattoo, Shaman's Apprentice
Oread Traits (lvl6+): Crystalline Form, Energy Resist Acid/5, Magic Stone 1/day. 20'move speed.
1. Burn, Elemental Focus: Earth, Gather Power, Kinetic Blast: Earth Blast
Infusion: Extended Range
Feat: Point Blank Shot
2. Elemental Defense: Flesh of Stone
Utility Wild Talent: Kinetic Cover
3. Elemental Overflow +1
Infusion: Pushing Infusion
Feat: Precise Shot
4. Utility Wild Talent: Earth Climb
5. Infusion Specialization 1, Metakinesis (Empower)
Infusion: Entangling Infusion
Feat: Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast
6. Elemental Overflow +2, Internal Buffer 1
Utility Wild Talent: Earth Child
Bonus Utility Wild Talent: Tremorsense
7. Expanded Element: Earth, Composite Blast: Metal Blast
Infusion: Rare-Metal Infusion
Feat: Extra Wild Talent: Elemental Whispers
8. Infusion Specialization 2
Utility Wild Talent: Shift Earth
9. Elemental Overflow +3, Metakinesis (Maximize)
Infusion: Impale
Feat: Improved Initiative
10. Utility Wild Talent: Earth Glide
11. Infusion Specialization 3, Internal Buffer 2, Supercharge
Infusion: Wall
Feat: Bolstered Resilience
12. Elemental Overflow +4
Utility Wild Talent: Enduring Earth
Bonus Utility Wild Talent: Ride the Blast
At level 6 he will become attuned with the earth (Earth Child wild talent), changing his type from Humanoid to Outsider, as well as giving him most of the traits of an Oread, while keeping most of his original traits.
At level 7 he will gain a special familiar (Elemental Whispers wild talent), which will be taking the Sage archetype, giving him access to basically all the knowledge skills. This will dramatically increase his out of combat utility. I plan on having it be based off the hedgehog familiar, giving him a needed boost to his will saves :)
I've played a geokineticist (alongside pyrokineticist), hosted for a kineticist (air/water) that was next to a magus, played alongside a kineticist (also air/water) (with a new-to-the-system player, so I helped build it).
The class is a good battler. When optimized, it can be a real pain to fight. However, it is not OP. It's more skewed towards a fight than other Tier 3's, but it's solidly there.
Saashaa, how did you get the negative energy resistance 10 and the energy resistance to acid?
I've played a geokineticist (alongside pyrokineticist), hosted for a kineticist (air/water) that was next to a magus, played alongside a kineticist (also air/water) (with a new-to-the-system player, so I helped build it).
The class is a good battler. When optimized, it can be a real pain to fight. However, it is not OP. It's more skewed towards a fight than other Tier 3's, but it's solidly there.
To be the pessimist in the overly optimistic board there is little chance a Kineticist is tier 3.
All Tier 3's are 2/3rd casters and all but the Warpriest have excellent skill use.
I am not taking away the fun people have playing them but there is no way utility talents are covering the utility provided by an Alchemist, Bard, Occultist, Unchained Summoner or Inquisitor spell list.
Saashaa, how did you get the negative energy resistance 10 and the energy resistance to acid?
The negative energy resistance is from the deathless armor, and the acid resistance is from Earth Child granting the Oread's racial acid resistance (which is boosted by unscathed.)
I am not taking away the fun people have playing them but there is no way utility talents are covering the utility provided by an Alchemist, Bard, Occultist, Unchained Summoner or Inquisitor spell list.
In the hands of a creative player and a cooperative GM though, the Telekineticist's "World's best Mage Hand" is kind of absurdly useful though. It can completely obviate the need for trapfinding, for someone to use spells to get the party traveling overland, etc. So I'd say low end tier 3.
OK missed those, thanks PossibleCabbage.
Saashaa, how did you get the negative energy resistance 10 and the energy resistance to acid?The negative energy resistance is from the deathless armor, and the acid resistance is from Earth Child granting the Oread's racial acid resistance (which is boosted by unscathed.)
I am not taking away the fun people have playing them but there is no way utility talents are covering the utility provided by an Alchemist, Bard, Occultist, Unchained Summoner or Inquisitor spell list.In the hands of a creative player and a cooperative GM though, the Telekineticist's "World's best Mage Hand" is kind of absurdly useful though. It can completely obviate the need for trapfinding, for someone to use spells to get the party traveling overland, etc. So I'd say low end tier 3.
The use for an Aether kineticist is large if the player is creative and given the right circumstances. I've used it to spook enemies by levitating corpses.
But I've already made the argument that aether is the only one with noteworthy utility for a good part of the game.
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When talking tiers, I'd say the elements themselves are basically tiers, with aether sitting at the top at a low T3 to wood at the bottom at a weak T5. Really, I think the class just needs more content that it can't get all at once because of how unique kineticist content is (you can power up all casters with a single spell, but wild talents are more self contained into the kineticist).
I'd actually be more interested in tiered Elements than I am the class tier list xD
I assume Air and Telekinesis would be somewhere at the top.
EDIT: maybe water O.o?
Well, if we're just tiering the elements I would say that Aether and Air are a tier above Water, Fire, and Earth, which are a tier ahead of Void and Wood.
But what's potentially more interesting is to rank tiers of combinations of elements (at least the ones that have some synergy), since Aether/Air or Aether/Earth is quite a bit stronger than Aether/Aether, or combinations that redeem otherwise weak elements (I've been kicking around an Earth/Wood Kinetic Knight that gets all Paladin-ey with the healing stuff in Wood; not sure if it works though.)
Earth Water
Aether Earth
Water Aether
Seem like the tanky compositions to me, just depends on what you're going for.
I don't know if I'd put fire in the same tier as water and earth.
EDIT: Also I think the fact that while both air and aether make great primary elements, air doesn't have the same pull as aether as a secondary one. As the main draw of air is the 6th flight, but with the delayed progression of secondary elements, that comes online a level after some elements get their own psuedo flight (fire and aether, for example) and only one level before water gets something arguably better.
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I'd actually be more interested in tiered Elements than I am the class tier list xD
I assume Air and Telekinesis would be somewhere at the top.
EDIT: maybe water O.o?
My personal ranking for the 1p elements would be
1-Aether: It can do the most out of everything2-Earth: Strong defense, powerful utility late game
3-Air: Decent versatility and great flight
4-Water: Decent versatility and power
5-Fire: Most limited of the base elements
6-Void: Lacking talents, but its talents are good
7-Wood: Lacking talents or solid unique capabilities.
Only my opinion here, but the kineticist lives and dies on its versatility for utility talents, with its versatility on infusions coming in as a secondary concern for me.
Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with your rankings I'd disagree with Aether being able to do "most out of everything" given it has arguably the greatest weakness of all elements in the damage department.
Indeed however it seems worth mentioning as it's a glaring weakness that none of the other elements have.
Sometimes it pays to be able to kill things in a pinch. I think I'd still put aether at the top of the list just seems worth mentioning.
The thing is that damage is what of the core roles of a Kineticist and as a role is always useful to the party.
The Tier system may not look favorably on full bab classes but they always did there role well and it was the most common role. You notice it when the 2 handed Bloodrager isn't there that week and you nearly lose a party member to an npc Warpriest and minions.
It may be a role more try to fulfill just because it's so necessary but more importantly to the argument it's still part of the tier system in usefulness. For the kineticist it's also there key role.
Aether may be lacking in a composite blast until 15 but the math actually keeps it on the heels of the outer elements just fine. Empowered basic blast is single digits behind base composite blast.
Every 2 static dmg (3 w empower) is only a half dmg behind a bonus die for composite. It's also more reliable and consistent because of this. Aether's utility more than makes up for that tiny difference.
No class in the game, including the almighty god wizard, can bench press like an aether can.
Yeah but if an aether kineticts wants to deal more damage, they can't really nova.
Say you're a water kineticts, you don't wanna take burn, you gather power and empower, once you can super charge you gather power and composite, but you wanna nova you can empower your composite Blast and deal at say level 11 for one burn, (12D6+12+1.5xCon+6 from overflow)X1.5 which is probably somewhere around, 106 damage with a reasonablly high but not crazy Con.
If a telekineticist wants to do damage, they can maximise but I'm pretty sure it's still a ways behind.
True, their nova is lacking but that's usually reserved for few#/day. But their round to round DPR is very nearly identical. It's a small price to pay for at will invisibility, ranged Disable, the strongest mage hand in the game, and the ability to beat a mother trucker with another mother trucker.
Oh yeah, I mean, like I've said maybe 4 times now, I think its the strongest Element, but not without its weaknesses.
Also the whole throw a mother trucker against a mother trucker thing has a fort save attached, it never read as very reliable to me.
Telekineticists may not be able to nova a single enemy for massive damage, but they do get arguably the most damaging Form infusion in the game in Many Throw. Being able to attack 1 target per level for full blast damage as a Standard is pretty impressive, especially if your table is one (likely of few) that lets you target the same creature more than once.