Link to the document for the top of the page.
Woo! Four digits reached!
Hunter
Inquisitor
Medium
Mesmerist
Occultist
Oracle
Samurai
Spiritualist
Vigilante
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Power -1, Versatility -1
The theme seems to be "coven", and you even have the option to get the Witch Hex of the same name. In addition, you can create a bond with (exactly) two allies and effectively gain a "Coven Domain" that only provides a benefit when both allies are within 10 ft.
Your "Domain Powers" are to give out teamwork feats to your two pals for a ridiculously short duration, and to spontaneously cast one domain spell once per day. Might find some use, if you didn't have to be conjoined triplets to actually play this archetype as a PC.
Fiendish Vessel (Tiefling)
Power +0, Versatility +1
So one of your domains must be a specific one depending on what you worship, your channel becomes anti-good instead of anti-living, and you gain a free improved familiar with extra spell-like abilities. All in all, a pretty good deal for our evil tieflings out there. Don't forget to choose a variant tiefling with a bonus to wisdom!
Forgemaster (Dwarf)
Power -2, Versatility -1
Very thematically on point, but gives up far too much for far too little.
You gain one domain, and it's a bad one. Artifice. In place of your Channel Energy you're given an ability that scales with your intelligence, which is to inscribe runes on your equipment. None of the runes really stand out, with the exception of the ability to apply Ghost Touch to armor at level 4.
The only noteworthy ability is that spells that targets a weapon, shield, or armor have +1 caster level and lowers the metamagic cost by one. Might have some uses, but it's not worth effectively losing two domains for that.
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Power -2, Versatility -2
Swarms are broken.
That's why you'll have to wait until level 15 before you get automatic damage and the Distraction ability, since they're broken. Unfortunately that means you'll spend the majority of your career without any real class features.
Although the first-level power allows you to enlarge yourself as a swift action, which normally is pretty good, you don't get any reach. Might have some uses as a dip for someone who wants to share their space with allies or enemies, but the archetype itself just lacks any real concept until late-game.
***
The living grimoire has its points as a skill-focused character (even though it loses monster lore), but I can't agree that a fancy light mace is a match for judgement + bane + cunning initiative. It's a definite step down in combat power, as well as being limited in which combat style you take (weapon + buckler/light shield, without shield bashing or power attack basically).
-1 in either power or versatility would cover it. Probably power -1.
I also have a hard time taking Living Grimoire seriously due to the use of the spellbook like an offensive version of what the monks in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail do shortly before the witch scene.
Still, it does offer one of the very few 6/9 caster entries into a prestige class that isn't absolutely terrible: Wizard 7 (or 8) with a specialty having Arcane School Powers that don't scale much with level, Faith Magic Arcane Discovery to get a 2nd level divine spell, dip Living Grimoire Inquisitor 1, and then go into Mystic Theurge -- since Inquisitor is 6/9, you don't get as much from this as somebody who went dual 9/9, but you don't have to pay as much either.
@Cavall
Looking closer at the Forester Hunter, I think it may have gotten shadownerfed or something? I can't find the half-level-damage ability anywhere.
A forester gains the ranger’s favored terrain ability. She gains her first favored terrain at 5th level and a new favored terrain every 4 levels thereafter. In addition, at each such interval, the bonuses on initiative checks and skill checks in one favored terrain (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2. Starting at 5th level, a forester adds half her favored terrain bonus on damage rolls while in her favored terrain and fighting a creature native to that terrain.
The ability here is closer to 1/4 your level to damage, and is dependent on both having a high bonus and fighting something native to that terrain. So both situational and kind of weak.
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Added Nature Fang and Feyspeaker to the document. Did we reach a new rating for the Living Grim inq?
Also realized there's probably a few new archetypes that are not in the document, so that's gonna be annoying to check.
Living grim is trading bane for the warpriest weapon buff options (brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, frost, keen, and shock) and adding bane, though it can't be changed after selected for the day. Flexible bane is always the more powerful option. They get a few bonus spells, and are a prepared spell caster which is nice, but they're losing initiative and knowledge bonuses. Knowledge bonuses aren't as big a deal since they no longer need to worry about accurate bane choice.
They're cool for being a rare int based divine caster. Their book is stupid, but is impressive for being simultaneously improvised and enchantable making it an interesting choice for shikigami style builds. It's quirky and can allow some otherwise impossible builds, but seems like a downgrade in both versatility and power. I'd go with -1/-1 or so.
The relic hunter seems a bit low in its rating. You still have bane through legacy weapon, and you get it earlier, though it is slower being standard rather than swift it lasts 1 minute rather than 1 round per level. You should have access to panoplies since it's granting the required occultist abilities "as an occultist", so you could be full BAB with 6th level casting. They can also use legacy weapon on ally weapons which helps with penetrating DR early on. I think they're about equal to the base class, they just come around to it in a weird way.
I said I'd rate living Grimoire 0/0 and I stand by that. avr gave it either a 0/-1 or a -1/0. EricAD hit is on both accounts.
In the end I think a 0/-1 is probably the right rating. A lot comes down to how one values the int vs wis, spontaneous vs prepared casting.
Looked through some of the classes we were supposedly done with, and found some archetypes missing.
Cavalier - Verdivant
Gunslinger - Graveslinger
cMonk - Soul Shepherd
Ranger - Bloodhunter, Realm Wanderer, Bow Nomad (Kasatha), Dusk Stalker (Fetchling), Wave Warden (Merfolk), Wild Shadow (Half-Elf)
I'll start on the mesmerist archetypes late tonight or tomorrow. They're fun.
Weird that Bloodhunter Ranger shows up on www.d20pfsrd.com, but not on Archives of Nethys . . . unless www.d20pfsrd.com actually renamed it in some way that I can't figure out what the original was.
^Strange -- searching for Niobe under products doesn't bring anything up, but searching for Omdura on www.d20pfsrd.com does bring up the class' page (including 2 archetypes), even though www.d20pfsrd.com doesn't list it on their home page (even though they list Vampire Hunter).
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Power +1, Versatility 0
AoE for stares instead of a single target, whoo! But...potential targets that hold their breath become immune to those stares, less good, though it can save allies who are too close to you in melee. I'd assume that enemies knowledgeable enough to do this are rare but it's certainly an issue with some GMs. Rate it Power -2 if you have a GM who gives your enemies perfect knowledge as soon as an ally holds their breath. Also feats which affect stares don't affect these replacement abilities, though those feats are optional when making a good mesmerist.
The touch attacks can affect targets holding their breath but obviously you'd rather use them on targets which have penalties to their Will save from hypnotic stare.
Autohypnotist
Power -1, Versatility 0
Your stares getting 1 point more effectiveness aren't worth imposing the same (increased) penalty on yourself. Halving the penalties of said stares at the cost of a swift action to avoid taking any penalty yourself has the problems that you've removed the reason to take this archetype, and that you can't even do it on the round you start a hypnotic stare as that costs a swift action too.
Chart Caster
Power 0, Versatility 0
You can set up multiple mesmerist tricks at once but you're required to spend 5 minutes to set up any tricks; a minor bonus overall. Feign destiny looks forgettable at 3rd level, not a big deal at 6th...but at 10th the bonus jumps to +5 and your friends stop forgetting to give you a chance to add the bonus in. I'm not sure that that alone is enough to raise the power rating, but if you're not going to take a conflicting archetype or concept I'd take it over the base mesmerist.
Blood Hunter seems like its +1/+1. You lose Woodland Stride and the 2nd lv feat in exchange, you can use Favored Enemy vs anyone (albeit at half bonus) as a swift action. In exchange for spell, you can also change your Favored Terrain by spending 1 hour eventually even gaining extra bonuses like Woodland Stride (with an extra movement speed) and Animal Focus (with what appears to be no duration limit).
And don't forget that +3 bonus to damage and all saving throws. Crazy stuff.
Losing the 2nd lv feat is probably better than the 6th when you get to cheat better prerequisites, but it makes the archetype much less attractive for Str-TWFing.Also missing is the Soulbound Summoner and the 2 Omdura archetypes.
Seems like we're missing the whole unchained list, actually.
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Added Bloodhunter, Living Grim, Forester and Totem-Bonded.
@JiaYou: That'd be the free blessed hunter feat. It only applies in a tiny area, it's more a bonus for NPC blood hunters.
Power -1, Versatility 0
By flavour at least (by mechanics from 7th level at the latest) you have to be the leader of a cult. This may be a problem for PCs. You get a number of buffs to support cult leadership which come at the price of painful stare and touch treatment.
Mesmerists are already unimpressive in personal combat and losing painful stare ensures a cult master has no interest in melee. The buffs aren't that amazing; play a bard if you want to do this. The cult master does do things in weird ways which make for a possibly interesting adversary, but not a great PC.
Dreamstalker
Power 0, Versatility -1
Getting the slumber hex sounds amazing, until you realise it's limited to a couple of uses per day which makes it merely OK. Dropping more mesmerist tricks (you lose the first one for slumber) can get you extra spells known from a pretty good sleep-themed list. The rest of the changes drop situational abilities for extremely situational abilities. Dreamstalker's pushing you down a narrow build path but so long as you're OK with that, it works.
Enigma
Power -2, Versatility 0
You get a number of stealth abilities, all of them weaker than they were in the classes they came from. It's hard to see how you'd make those work and the base mesmerist's stare abilities are crippled enough by enigma that you can't make an effective character using a more typical mesmerist build.
Eyebiter
Power 0, Versatility 0
You can turn your eyeball into a flying familiar. The weird is strong with this one. Especially if you have that familiar take the mauler archetype and ride it... Mainly though the eyeball's a fine-sized stealthy scout. The other significant change is losing touch treatment for a touch attack which can blind from 6th level - decent with a conductive weapon. The lost abilities are an acceptable trade for what you get.
Fey Trickster
Power -1, Versatility +1
Divine spells from the hunter list rather than psychic mesmerist spells. A big change, it'd be better if the fey trickster had an animal companion or if the hunter list had more offensive will-save spells. As it is it's a step down in power. The assorted social/magical abilities of fey veil keep the archetype from losing the social focus of the mesmerist entirely, and along with the breadth of the hunter spell list rate +1 versatility in my book.
Ah, duh. Yeah since that doesn't move when your favored terrain does it's arguably overpowered in an urban campaign but spotty in others.
But it does. Whenever you switch favored terrain you get to switch the location, too.
Starting at 4th level, a blood hunter can declare a new terrain as his favored terrain. This requires studying the terrain in a process that requires 1> hour of time within the terrain. Once the new terrain is declared as his favored terrain, it remains his favored terrain until the blood hunter declares a new favored terrain.
At 7th level, a blood hunter gains Blessed Hunter as a bonus feat. The territory he chooses with the Blessed Hunter feat must always be a location that matches his favored terrain. When the blood hunter chooses a new favored terrain, he can also choose a new territory with the Blessed Hunter feat. At 10th level, he gains Blessed Hunter’s Stride as a bonus feat. At 13th level, he gains Blessed Hunter’s Focus as a bonus feat, except he treats his ranger level as his hunter level for the purposes of that feat.
This alters favored terrain and replaces spells
{. . .}
Aromaphile (Ghoran)
Power +1, Versatility 0
AoE for stares instead of a single target, whoo! But...potential targets that hold their breath become immune to those stares, less good {. . .}
But this doesn't totally hose you -- if you can drag the fight out, you could exceed the breath holding capacity of many Humanoids (see the Swim skill page that has the breath holding rules). Also, Alter Self is on your spell list (and it's only 2nd level), so you could trick opponents into thinking they were just up against a regular Humanoid. On the other hand, losing Towering Ego still hurts.
There may be some situations where the favored terrain doesn't apply but yeah, most of the time you should have it. That blood hunter archetype is definitely better than the base ranger.
UAE, the holding your breath rules are that you can hold your breath for your Con score (not Con modifier) in rounds in normal combat before making rolls. If your enemy has a 10 Con they are not going to run out, seriously. Your defence against their doing so is that few enemies should reasonably know how a class ability of one archetype of an obscure race works.
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Good night to you all. One more entry on mesmerist archetypes as I seek my bed.
Power 0, Versatility 0
Not just a liar, this looks like it derives from a style of horror novels or a movie I'm not familiar with. The gaslighter is an evil required archetype which gets some horrifying but not especially effective insanity-inducing abilities in place of touch treatment. Touch treatment isn't an especially powerful ability (you need to start your turn within a move action of the person to heal, and healing needs to be worth your standard action that round which touch treatment usually doesn't justify) so the weak gaslighter abilities aren't enough on their own to drop the ratings IMO.
Hate-monger
Power 0, Versatility 0
Non-good rather than evil required. You can trade mesmerist tricks for extra spells known from a list themed on negative emotions. You get a few other nasty tricks and a single favored enemy whose bonus increases as you gain levels. Interestingly this archetype might be compatible with fey trickster, and the ranger favored enemy spells like hunter's howl and instant enemy would make for a Power +1 combination IMO.
Material Manipulator
Power 0, Versatility +1
You get a greatly increased spell list (all sorc/wiz transmutation spells and a lot of illusions), though no extra spells known. Also an ability to disguise, change the age category of and eventually polymorph people. You lose touch treatment and a few other bits and bobs. It's a reasonable trade, though losing focus is a danger with that increase to your spell list.
Mindwyrm Mesmer
Power -1, Versatility 0
You lose painful stare for the suckiest breath weapon in PF1. You gain an actually decent intimidate bonus instead of consummate liar and gain the option of taking a couple of mesmerist tricks which aren't all that good. Painful stare is useful and phantasmagorical breath just isn't; this archetype has to be a step down despite the appeal of playing the most intimidating halfling or kitsune fox in the world.
Projectionist
Power 0, Versatility -1
You're required to take a possession-type spell as your first new spell when you gain a spell level. From 8th level you can cast spells and use your class abilities while possessing an object, which you generally can't do. It's as if someone had written an archetype for use with the mech pilot guide.
@deuxhero
Do note that Cavaliers don't actually get the Share Spells feature, as the designers realized it didn't do anything for them. So Cavaliers have access to like four archetypes, and one of them did originally require Share Spells but was errata:d to work with the Cavalier.
The vast majority of AC archetypes touch Share Spells unfortunately. You'd need to dip one level in another Companion class to take those archetypes.
I think Material Manipulator could be Power +1 as well, especially at lower levels. Transmutation contains plenty of encounter ending spells, some of which are will based (pyrotechnics with a bullseye lantern is a favorite of mine). Worth noting that only scrolls, not wands, that are arcane/divine/occult so this gives them access to a lot of wands, though this doesn't mean much on a charisma based class with UMD as a class skill.
A mesmerist already has encounter ending low level will-save spells, notably color spray. A shortage of attack spells is not their weak point. The shadow and transmutation spells add utility first and foremost. I'll remember the bullseye lantern trick though, and make a note about wand use.
Isn't there an FAQ that says Cavaliers are considered to have share spells for the purpose of AC archetypes?
I think there was such a FAQ at one time but it got removed. Possibly when the animal companion archetypes after the first 4 were introduced?
WORLD WALKER DRUID
Power 0 versatility 0
A rather bland and unremarkable archetype that replaces little and gives little back. Due to getting favoured terrain, would do well in an AP setting with a set background, like Skull and shackles. This would bump up the abilities a bit, but not enough to make a full +1 jump anywhere. What you trade off is equally unremarkable.
Favored terrain also allows single-class entry to the nature warden prestige class and is a prereq to a bunch of feats, a few of which are even useful (e.g. earth magic).
Would you say that in anyway changes the rating of the archetype itself? If so in what direction?Favored terrain also allows single-class entry to the nature warden prestige class and is a prereq to a bunch of feats, a few of which are even useful (e.g. earth magic).WORLD WALKER DRUID
Power 0 versatility 0
A rather bland and unremarkable archetype that replaces little and gives little back. Due to getting favoured terrain, would do well in an AP setting with a set background, like Skull and shackles. This would bump up the abilities a bit, but not enough to make a full +1 jump anywhere. What you trade off is equally unremarkable.
Probably not on the scale we're using. Do you think it's worth mentioning the PrC at least though?
Updated the Mesmerist, Druid, and UnSummoner
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@Cavall
Regarding the Menhir Savant.
Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
So you couldn't use up all uses of Plane Magic ability in one round, unfortunately.
I would like to point out that there is a paladin archetype missing from the document. The Oathbound Paladin. It would actually require multiple entries as the different oaths replace different paladin features.
{. . .}
UAE, the holding your breath rules are that you can hold your breath for your Con score (not Con modifier) in rounds in normal combat before making rolls. If your enemy has a 10 Con they are not going to run out, seriously. Your defence against their doing so is that few enemies should reasonably know how a class ability of one archetype of an obscure race works.
That's only if they don't fight or cast spells. If they take a Standard Action or Full Attack each round, that duration is cut in half. A fight that draws out to 5 rounds is well within the realm of possibility to handle, potentially to your advantage depending upon what else you and the rest of your party do. And good luck for them to cast spells having Verbal components while holding their breath.
{. . .}
UAE, the holding your breath rules are that you can hold your breath for your Con score (not Con modifier) in rounds in normal combat before making rolls. If your enemy has a 10 Con they are not going to run out, seriously. Your defence against their doing so is that few enemies should reasonably know how a class ability of one archetype of an obscure race works.That's only if they don't fight or cast spells. If they take a Standard Action or Full Attack each round, that duration is cut in half. A fight that draws out to 5 rounds is well within the realm of possibility to handle, potentially to your advantage depending upon what else you and the rest of your party do. And good luck for them to cast spells having Verbal components while holding their breath.
No, it's twice your Con score in rounds if you take only a move action (i.e. 20 rounds with a Con of 10), half that (=10 rounds with a Con of 10) if you take a standard or full round action. I will agree that casting spells with verbal components while holding your breath isn't going to work though.
^Oops, missed the multiplier in there -- seems like you can hold your breath an awfully long time if you're average. (I wonder what that says about my Constitution?) So you would have to drag the fight out to 10 rounds to profit. Not impossible, but a lot harder (you'd have to do something like make them chase you during at least part of it).
* * * * * * * *
I haven't figured an official rating for this yet (just saw it tonight), but Grim Apostle Spiritualist looks pretty powerful, although less diverse in Phantom choices than the vanilla class. Note that it technically has no alignment requirement, so you could be a Grim Apostle who is cursed by one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse rather than being one of their servants.
Yeah, 11+ rounds (10 minimum with the enemy holding their breath, 1 to cast a spell on them) within 10' of an enemy will see one of you down. In the event that you've built a character so extremely defensively oriented that this does not occur, expect to get lynched by the other players and the GM. Also remember that an aromaphile can't use debuffs from their bold stare to help survive those 11 rounds.
- - - ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - - -
It looks like AoN just added data from that module 3 days ago. Since you can apparently choose which of the 4 phantom options you use each day that's actually a lot of advantage in versatility over the base spiritualist. I'm not sure it's actually more powerful though. Also try not to get your phantom killed, you take 1d4 hp damage for each of its HD when that happens which could be a bit risky in a combat where you've taken damage also.
I'm not sure that you could take the archetype without fitting the phrase 'devotees of the Four Horsemen' but there doesn't seem to be anything other than the anger of your fellow cultists stopping you from becoming a repentant former devotee.
For Aromaphile, I was thinking of a whole party specializing in hit-and-run with extended chases.
For Grim Apostle, I could also see the situation in which you are the victim of a cruel joke of one of the Four Horsemen which didn't yet go quite as sour as they intended . . . .
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Power +1, Versatility -1
You can use mind-affecting spells on undead. You may want to wait until 3rd or 5th level if you're not a gambler though. Also you can use Command Undead via spell or feat. It costs you touch treatment, consummate liar and mental potency; better than acceptable if there will be many undead in your game. I assume there will if you're taking this archetype.
Thought Eater
Power -1, Versatility 0
A disguise expert. Losing the save bonus from Towering Ego is a drag, and becoming effectively immune to spells targeting alignment is useful for the concept but doesn't make up in overall power. Also while you gain a disguise bonus you lose the bluff bonus, and disguise experts often need to lie a lot.
Toxitician
Power -2, Versatility +1
Your hypnotic stare requires a standard action and a melee touch attack as opposed to a swift action and no attack at a range of 30'. That's...bad. Very bad. Being able to target different saves with hypnotic stare is different at least, and possibly better than the bold stare this option replaces but doesn't make up for the former. Likewise being able to do it subtly. Oh, you also lose your bonuses to bluff which doesn't help with the subtlety.
Umbral Mesmerist
Power -2, Versatility +1
Diminished spellcasting and a free monster summoning ability. I can see that, but the nerfs piled on to the summon monster ability - they're shadow creatures with half effect when disbelieved, and the summon monster effect goes up in spell level once per 4 character levels not as per a full caster, unlike a summoner or similar - make it too bad to pick IMO. You also lose Towering Ego which just seems unfair.
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[spoiler, Mesmerists VVVV and done]Vexing daredevil
Power 0, Versatility -1
For a trick and all of touch treatment and your bold stares you get a martial weapon proficiency and a lot of bonuses with feints. Unfortunately mesmerists don't otherwise get bonuses against those feinted/denied their dex bonus, some multiclassing may be required to make full use of this.
Vexing Trickster
Power 0, Versatility 0
All about using the mesmerist tricks and trick feats. This isn't an incredibly strong class feature and the most important part of what you gain may be the free Combat Expertise and virtual Int 13. As with many other mesmerist archetypes you lose touch treatment.
Vizier
Power -1, Versatility 0
An NPC archetype. It may be nice to be able to suggest that others on your side are casting your spells or using your mesmerist tricks as an NPC but it seems less useful for a PC. The save each time for others to realise it actually was you limits this tactic further. You sacrifice your save bonus (Towering Ego) and your first bold stare for the privilege.
Vox
Power 0, Versatility -1
Your spells and stare-equivalents all require verbal components as well, and a number of sonic spells get added to your spell list (not automatically to spells known). You can also do melee & eventually short-range sonic damage 3+Cha mod times per day. It's probably possible to make an effective vital strike build here between painful stare and the 1d6+(1/level) sonic damage. The archetype does cost touch treatment, towering ego and the 10th level mesmerist trick.[/spoiler]
Mesmerist done! Thanks for the fast reviews, avr.
I've noticed that many fighter archetypes are dated, what with the introduction of Advanced Weapon/Armor training options. Will prob have to fix that sooner or later.