How I Got to Destroy Avistan

[Tangent101]

Someone started doing a campaign for RoW based on most of the previous APs having failed - Karzoug had returned and took over Varisia and the like. I lost track of where they were going with that, however. Seemed interesting. (They also started the campaign later into the cold weather, so the ritual had been going on for around a year.)

So really, it would be lizard men ascendant in the South, the Oni having prevailed against Ameiko, the Runelords in full control of Varisia, and so forth. Ice would be spreading across the land, and the Crusade fails, leaving the forces of darkness to try and stop the Worldwound, while wondering when their erstwhile allies would try to betray them.

[Steven T. Helt]

Adam - when ARG published separate fiction, cards, and roleplaying support for l5r's "1000 Years of Darkness", it was wildly popular. The "what if" campaign is a great idea!

[Arikiel]

Tangent101 wrote:

Someone started doing a campaign for RoW based on most of the previous APs having failed - Karzoug had returned and took over Varisia and the like. I lost track of where they were going with that, however. Seemed interesting. (They also started the campaign later into the cold weather, so the ritual had been going on for around a year.)

So really, it would be lizard men ascendant in the South, the Oni having prevailed against Ameiko, the Runelords in full control of Varisia, and so forth. Ice would be spreading across the land, and the Crusade fails, leaving the forces of darkness to try and stop the Worldwound, while wondering when their erstwhile allies would try to betray them.

From what I can tell it seems Kyonin is also a crater and the Stolen Lands are a wasteland..... At least there don't seem to be any major world changing repercussions from Skull and Shackles..... What happens if the Legacy of Fire and Carrion Crown APs fail?

[MMCJawa]

A Spawn of Rovagug is released and Tar Baphon is released, IIRC

[Enlight_Bystand]

Arikiel wrote:

Tangent101 wrote:

Someone started doing a campaign for RoW based on most of the previous APs having failed - Karzoug had returned and took over Varisia and the like. I lost track of where they were going with that, however. Seemed interesting. (They also started the campaign later into the cold weather, so the ritual had been going on for around a year.)

So really, it would be lizard men ascendant in the South, the Oni having prevailed against Ameiko, the Runelords in full control of Varisia, and so forth. Ice would be spreading across the land, and the Crusade fails, leaving the forces of darkness to try and stop the Worldwound, while wondering when their erstwhile allies would try to betray them.

From what I can tell it seems Kyonin is also a crater and the Stolen Lands are a wasteland..... At least there don't seem to be any major world changing repercussions from Skull and Shackles..... What happens if the Legacy of Fire and Carrion Crown APs fail?

In Legacy of Fire an Efreet resurects/inhabits the remains of a Spawn of Rovagug, smashs a load of Katapesh and probably skips off plane.

If the heroes fail early enough in Carrion Crown, then the Whispering Tyrant gets recreated outside Gallowspire, so not good...

[Tangent101]

Honestly can't tell you. Legacy of Fire had the efreet Jhavhul try to merge with Xotani the Firebleeder and become a new spawn of Rovagug and then get lucky with the goddess Ymiri, the Queen of the Inferno. So Katapesh would likely be a burning wasteland. However, Jhavhul doesn't stick around to destroy the rest of Golarion.

[Arikiel]

Enlight_Bystand wrote:

If the heroes fail early enough in Carrion Crown, then the Whispering Tyrant gets recreated outside Gallowspire, so not good...

I'm working from the premise that the heros were never there to begin with. So a complete failure.

Oh and also what would happen with Shattered Star? As Karzoug would have taken over Varisia 10 years before Shattered Star I imagine that would have changed things.

[Lochar]

Karzoug either would have completed the Star himself, or known what doing so would have done.

So either you'd have Karzoug versus Pappy Xin himself and the two waging war, or Karzoug would have buried every shard he could find so he wouldn't wake up the cranky old man.

[Set]

Tangent101 wrote:

Stuff.

Wearing a Spawn of Rovagug like the eidolon meatsuit of a Synthesist Summoner does have a certain cachet.

"Wow, what are you wearing? I love it!"
"The Tarrasque."

[Lochar]

It's all the rage in Absalom these days.

[brad2411]

Arikiel wrote:

TheChozyn wrote:

The ruins of pathfinder alternate world is getting crowded.

hmmm... I'm not that familiar with all the different APs but that sounds interesting. What would the world look like if all the APs had been failed in the order that they were released? How would the different world conquering forces interact? Alternate world Pathfinder sounds like an interesting and dynamic place.

Failing Ends:

Rotrl - Karzoug comes back enslaves most of varisa if not more.

Cotct - A legendary dragon is brought back to life would probably start a war with Karzoug.
SD - meotor hits kyonin.
LOF - Spawn of Ravogug attacks and starts destroying things.
COT - Westcrown is taken over by servants of mammon.
Kingmaker - Stolenlands is sucked into the first world.
CC - Whispering Tyrant is reborn and unchained.
JR - Minkai is taken over by oni and start war there.
SS - Not much changes the hurricane king becomes more dangerous.
ShS - The lost coast is flooded and a new army of clockwork warriors joins the war over varisa.
ROW - More of the inner sea is covered in permanent winter and baba yaga is no more.
WOTR - The Demons are overrunning parts of the inner sea and the world wound grows.

That is I think all the things that happen.

[Cthulhudrew]

Arikiel wrote:

Oh and also what would happen with Shattered Star? As Karzoug would have taken over Varisia 10 years before Shattered Star I imagine that would have changed things.

Depends. As suggested above, if RotRL failed, there probably wouldn't be a Shattered Star AP in the first place.

On the other hand, if you assume it did still happen (just differently- entirely possible, as the people would be looking for the weapon to stop Karzoug), and was failed, then the consequences would more or less be the same, depending on at which point the heroes failed.

a) The Sihedron is never completed. There is no weapon to help stand against Karzoug and any other Runelords that may eventually wake up.
b) Xin is raised, Magnimar is flooded. The Sihedron is completed, but the heroes who assembled it are killed when they explore the newly raised island. The Sihedron is now in the hands of an insane Xin and his clockwork, who immediately begin to wage war upon Karzoug and Varisia.

More devastation and death to follow.

[Cthulhudrew]

As for Skull and Shackles- it seems likely to me that without the PCs, the Shackles would be successfully invaded by Cheliax, which would put an end to most of the piracy down there, and give control over the southern seaways to the Cheliaxian navy, likely leading to increased Cheliax colonization of Garund. The Hurricane King would probably still be ousted.

Which would probably lead to wars between the Cheliaxians and the serpent-men.

[Alleran]

The worst end for RotRL is the awakening of Mhar, the CR 27 Great Old One. At that point, the Whispering Tyrant gaining his freedom (a CR 26 maxed out mythic lich) is the only thing near his weight class (Karzoug is only CR 21, so Tar-Baphon, as Karzoug+++, will crush him; you'd need Sorshen or Xanderghul to stand against him), Elvanna won't get her mother's full power at first, at least, Kazavon is below the Tyrant by a point or two (IIRC), and offhand, you'd need to go down to Arazni in Geb or Daralathaxyl/Astarathian otherwise (and even the latter two are singular forces - the Tyrant's armies have armies, and he's a master of necromancy and the undead).

[Anorak]

Don't forget that Runelord

PFS SPOILER:

Krune also wakes up as well as a possible return of the goddess Lissala. Oh. Lady Sorshen sleeps in Korvosa too

[Alleran]

He could be a threat. Maybe sometime. If he feels like it. He's kind of tired right now.

More seriously, he's CR 18 or so. Not to disparage an immortal wizard with 9th level spells, but he isn't even on the radar of somebody like Tar-Baphon, or really most of the individuals mentioned so far.

[Lochar]

The most dangerous thing about Krune is the fact that it's possible he can draw Lissala back. And as we've seen, she is willing to grant the Runelords direct divine help.

[Rakshaka]

One thing I do have to wonder about regarding the siege of Ustalav and the Demon's Teleportation:

Shadows at Gallowspire Spoiler:

The Witchgates divert all teleportation effects around the Hungry Mountains into their vicinity. That means that all the demons eventually end up around Renchurch, While this does't seem like a contest between a strike team of Balors and The Grey Friar's company, considering the power of the haunts in the area, The Tyrant's Whispers, and that some of the denizens within can kill actually kill Mythic Balors (like Banshees), I have to speculate as to just how many Mythic Balors the abyss can pop out before there too many have died. (and no one better say that the answer is blowing in the Abyssal Wind

[Joshua Goudreau]

We can't forget the reforming presence of Ydersius in the depths of the Mwangi. The serpent folk would be flocking to his banner and protecting him as he returned to full power.

[Abyssal Lord]

brad2411 wrote:

Arikiel wrote:

TheChozyn wrote:

The ruins of pathfinder alternate world is getting crowded.

hmmm... I'm not that familiar with all the different APs but that sounds interesting. What would the world look like if all the APs had been failed in the order that they were released? How would the different world conquering forces interact? Alternate world Pathfinder sounds like an interesting and dynamic place.

** spoiler omitted **

Having a meteor hit Golarion....

So everything is reset again, another Aroden arises, he dies and we began where everything left off...like a vicious little cycle.

[Majuba]

Matthew Morris wrote:

I've always figured the good powers *could* stop the worldwound, but the collateral damage possibility made losing Sarkoris a small price to pay for not getting involved. (Think Good is not Nice)

As in the effect of 'closing' the worldwound as it is now would blow up the rest of the continent. So the expanding worldwound would require greater force.

This idea reminds me of the ending of Diablo 2 (Expansion) - the world is corrupted and must be made anew.

[Abyssal Lord]

Majuba wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

I've always figured the good powers *could* stop the worldwound, but the collateral damage possibility made losing Sarkoris a small price to pay for not getting involved. (Think Good is not Nice)

As in the effect of 'closing' the worldwound as it is now would blow up the rest of the continent. So the expanding worldwound would require greater force.

This idea reminds me of the ending of Diablo 2 (Expansion) - the world is corrupted and must be made anew.

Sounds like the gods of Golarion signed a raw deal and /or a bunch of nincompoops. They cannot interfere directly and yet archfiends are prancing around Golarion creating havoc.

Another meteor strike sounds more and more attractive.

[Sprain Ogre]

I think it's a matter of logistics as well. The demon's can get in because they have soft spots in reality that they're not afraid to use, even if it damages the fabric of reality in doing so. The good outsiders don't want to chance tearing apart reality by showing up in person, and in great numbers. So they help mortal champions out. It's a gamble, but it's worked out so far. Now, if the world wound began to expand like that, the good guys might indeed be much more willing to take the risk of reality fall out to get some angelic armies into the fray to try and contain the problem.

It's more a limitation of options (as the ones out there could cause more harm then good), then a lack of concern or lack of desire to get into the fight me thinks.

[The Shifty Mongoose]

Abyssal Lord wrote:

Majuba wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

I've always figured the good powers *could* stop the worldwound, but the collateral damage possibility made losing Sarkoris a small price to pay for not getting involved. (Think Good is not Nice)

As in the effect of 'closing' the worldwound as it is now would blow up the rest of the continent. So the expanding worldwound would require greater force.

This idea reminds me of the ending of Diablo 2 (Expansion) - the world is corrupted and must be made anew.

Sounds like the gods of Golarion signed a raw deal and /or a bunch of nincompoops. They cannot interfere directly and yet archfiends are prancing around Golarion creating havoc.

Another meteor strike sounds more and more attractive.

Well, Goodness involves allowing others their autonomy while being respectful to them.

To beings made out of Chaos and Evil turned solid, why should they obey rules when mortal suffering is basically Demon Pesh?

It's unfair, but the beings of Good can still aid the mortals without rushing in to solve their problems for them.

Also, as for the linear expansion, the map can just be a generalization; still, while demons can rampage around wherever they feel like it, the corruptive influence could still spread at a more or less steady pace as the Abyssal effects interact with regular physics.

It still looks pretty grim, though. Try showing that map to all those Worldwound Deniers in Absalom.

[Anorak]

If Iomedae is so all powerful, why is her

WRATH SPOILER:

Stinking Herald kidnapped and she send in some mortals to deal with it??

I say she is a physical god and Like Aroden or even Curchanus, she can be easily killed and THAT is why she won't face Baphomet.

[magnuskn]

Because, as it says in the adventure proper, divine mandate limits her possible involvement in mortal affairs. That's just how the gods roll on Golarion.

[James Jacobs]

Yeah; there's a a divine mandate that prevents direct intervention in mortal affairs.

If there wasn't... there'd be no reason for mortal heroes, no reason for adventures, and thus no reason to publish Pathinfder or to play it. ;-)

[magnuskn]

Not even to mention that there'd probably be some sort of nuclear wasteland all over Golarion, given how the gods probably would go to war with each other. And given how, for example, Saranrae was able to wipe out an entire large city with one blow of her flaming scimitar... I would imagine things would get very deadly for most living things on Golarion.

When Desna (or was it Shelyn? I think it was Desna) infiltrated the Abyss to rumble a bit with some demon lords, it almost led to the God Wars or whatever it would have been called. ^^

[Arikiel]

James Jacobs wrote:

Yeah; there's a a divine mandate that prevents direct intervention in mortal affairs.

If there wasn't... there'd be no reason for mortal heroes, no reason for adventures, and thus no reason to publish Pathinfder or to play it. ;-)

Unless we get to play as gods. bwahahahaha

[Andrea1]

Exalted,Scion,Amber are for those who want godly gaming.

[Anorak]

Mythender as well!

[Abyssal Lord]

When an archfiend kidnaps a gods' herald, how is THAT a mortal affair?
I don't see any mortals being involved in this scenario.

[Tangent101]

A mortal summoned the Herald, and a minion of the Demon Lord captured said Herald. And this was during an attack on a demon-held city. So it was very much a mortal affair (and the agents of Gods and Demons).

[Caius]

By technicality and it's why a few aren't too sore about you potentially putting the boot to baphy. Came very close to nulling the agreement that avoids divine crusades.

[Odraude]

Abyssal Lord wrote:

When an archfiend kidnaps a gods' herald, how is THAT a mortal affair?

I don't see any mortals being involved in this scenario.

That is true, but remember, the task is asked of you by a god herself. And if I recall, it was a minion of Baphomet that kidnapped him, right?

[HangarFlying]

James Jacobs wrote:

and thus no reason to publish Pathinfder or to play it. ;-)

What is this game, and where can I buy it?

[grandpoobah]

My Kingmaker players will be shocked!

If you look at the timelines of the APs, Kingmaker (at least our game) spanned several years of kingdom building (and tons of item crafting). By the time the game ended, it was well into 4718. I assumed Kingmaker started in 4710 (published in 2010). Wrath of the Righteous I assume starts in late 4713, and assuming the sequence of events, ends sometime in 4714.

By my Kingmaker timeline, my home game was in between chapter 3 and 4 when the demons hit the fan! Now they'll have to build new PCs to make sure that WoTR succeeds and save their precious kingdom from a demon army....

So I guess the conclusion is that the Kingmaker "heroes" are likely too low level to be anything more than a speed bump for the demon waves.

[James Jacobs]

grandpoobah wrote:

My Kingmaker players will be shocked!

If you look at the timelines of the APs, Kingmaker (at least our game) spanned several years of kingdom building (and tons of item crafting). By the time the game ended, it was well into 4718. I assumed Kingmaker started in 4710 (published in 2010). Wrath of the Righteous I assume starts in late 4713, and assuming the sequence of events, ends sometime in 4714.

By my Kingmaker timeline, my home game was in between chapter 3 and 4 when the demons hit the fan! Now they'll have to build new PCs to make sure that WoTR succeeds and save their precious kingdom from a demon army....

So I guess the conclusion is that the Kingmaker "heroes" are likely too low level to be anything more than a speed bump for the demon waves.

Actually... by your timeline, I'd say that the EARLIEST that Wrath of the Righteous could start would be late 4718. That's the basic assumption we go with—each game table establishes its own timeline and order of events. That's why we don't print "start years" for any of our adventures.

[AlgaeNymph]

Say, James, would Kyonin be inviting their neighbors from Andoran along with their mass evacuation?

[James Jacobs]

AlgaeNymph wrote:

Say, James, would Kyonin be inviting their neighbors from Andoran along with their mass evacuation?

I suspect they probably would try to save as many people as possible. So... yes. Although they'd also have to take care not to endanger their own peoples' safety—there's a fair amount of undesirables in the immediate region that would take advantage.

[Matthew Morris]

James Jacobs wrote:

AlgaeNymph wrote:

Say, James, would Kyonin be inviting their neighbors from Andoran along with their mass evacuation?

I suspect they probably would try to save as many people as possible. So... yes. Although they'd also have to take care not to endanger their own peoples' safety—there's a fair amount of undesirables in the immediate region that would take advantage.

So did they evacuate humans/half-elves/other races when the meteor hit?

Given the attitude towards half elves, I'm kind of surprised at your answer.

[Lord Snow]

GeraintElberion wrote:

Sprain Ogre wrote:

... of the Blood War...

Wrong setting.

What nobody is actually taking into account here is the celestial hosts.

I can't see Sarenrae and Iomedae shrugging and moving on.

If they aren't already doing everything they can to help the heroes of the crusade, what exactly are they waiting for? it's better to prevent a disaster than to help pick up the pieces...

[James Jacobs]

Matthew Morris wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

AlgaeNymph wrote:

Say, James, would Kyonin be inviting their neighbors from Andoran along with their mass evacuation?

I suspect they probably would try to save as many people as possible. So... yes. Although they'd also have to take care not to endanger their own peoples' safety—there's a fair amount of undesirables in the immediate region that would take advantage.

So did they evacuate humans/half-elves/other races when the meteor hit?

Given the attitude towards half elves, I'm kind of surprised at your answer.

They did not evacuate anyone that time. That's kind of why they'd help this time—they learned from their errors and are trying to be friendlier.

(What's REALLY going on here is that I'm trying to make Golarion's elves feel chaotic GOOD and for the longest time, the game's previous editions have over-embraced the isolationist kinda haughty Tolkein version of elves that feels more chaotic NEUTRAL to me. And a lot of RPG authors cling to that. It's a tricky change and not one we've done the best job at shepherding yet in Golarion, but hopefully some day we'll get it done.)

[Tangent101]

Well, when you get down to it the events in Second Darkness help showcase both the Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral elements. Even if this module took place before Second Darkness, you'd still have the Queen with a strong "helping other people" vibe. The Winter Council probably wouldn't be able to stop her decision to help the nation's allies, especially if those allies are helping fighting the demons who'd be swarming throughout the region. It becomes a fighting retreat, and you can't just not allow human and half-elven women and children from going through the portal while evacuating elves unless you want to risk those human allies turning against you.

[James Jacobs]

Tangent101 wrote:

Well, when you get down to it the events in Second Darkness help showcase both the Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral elements. Even if this module took place before Second Darkness, you'd still have the Queen with a strong "helping other people" vibe. The Winter Council probably wouldn't be able to stop her decision to help the nation's allies, especially if those allies are helping fighting the demons who'd be swarming throughout the region. It becomes a fighting retreat, and you can't just not allow human and half-elven women and children from going through the portal while evacuating elves unless you want to risk those human allies turning against you.

And frankly... of the 70+ adventures we've published in the AP line... you've hit the nail on the head as to the single adventure I'd like to revise significantly. Part 5 of Second Darkness should have presented the elves in a much more friendly light. Not only because that way they'd be more obviously allies to the PCs (and thus people the PCs want to help), but because that way the Winter Council comes off as even MORE bad. The Winter Council is intended to be a subversive hidden group that doesn't represent the elven people as a whole.

[Robert Brookes]

Tangent101 wrote:

Someone started doing a campaign for RoW based on most of the previous APs having failed - Karzoug had returned and took over Varisia and the like. I lost track of where they were going with that, however. Seemed interesting. (They also started the campaign later into the cold weather, so the ritual had been going on for around a year.)

So really, it would be lizard men ascendant in the South, the Oni having prevailed against Ameiko, the Runelords in full control of Varisia, and so forth. Ice would be spreading across the land, and the Crusade fails, leaving the forces of darkness to try and stop the Worldwound, while wondering when their erstwhile allies would try to betray them.

That was me! I actually plugged my wiki for that "what if" setting earlier in this thread, too. You can check out the campaigns through my profile under "Ruins of Pathfinder!"

[Lord Snow]

James Jacobs wrote:

Tangent101 wrote:

Well, when you get down to it the events in Second Darkness help showcase both the Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral elements. Even if this module took place before Second Darkness, you'd still have the Queen with a strong "helping other people" vibe. The Winter Council probably wouldn't be able to stop her decision to help the nation's allies, especially if those allies are helping fighting the demons who'd be swarming throughout the region. It becomes a fighting retreat, and you can't just not allow human and half-elven women and children from going through the portal while evacuating elves unless you want to risk those human allies turning against you.

And frankly... of the 70+ adventures we've published in the AP line... you've hit the nail on the head as to the single adventure I'd like to revise significantly. Part 5 of Second Darkness should have presented the elves in a much more friendly light. Not only because that way they'd be more obviously allies to the PCs (and thus people the PCs want to help), but because that way the Winter Council comes off as even MORE bad. The Winter Council is intended to be a subversive hidden group that doesn't represent the elven people as a whole.

Elves are pretty much played as isolationists in "Queen of Thorns", the reather recent Pathfinder Tales novel by Dave Gross. Though he does strive to show a more complex picture of the situation - most of their isolation vibes are about Cheliax and half elves who lived outside of Kyonin - and I can see why they would want to have little to do with devil worshipers and I can appreciate that half elves have a whole lot of extra baggage attached to them in this regard.

Still, that might have been a missed opportunity to show the elves as a more friendly race.

[Matthew Morris]

James Jacobs wrote:

(What's REALLY going on here is that I'm trying to make Golarion's elves feel chaotic GOOD and for the longest time, the game's previous editions have over-embraced the isolationist kinda haughty Tolkein version of elves that feels more chaotic NEUTRAL to me. And a lot of RPG authors cling to that. It's a tricky change and not one we've done the best job at shepherding yet in Golarion, but hopefully some day we'll get it done.)

I'm all for it, since elves (not half elves, love me some half elves) are the one race that I can't feel any kinship for so far. At times the way they've been portrayed made the Jadwiga seem friendlier.

[Set]

More focus on elves who follow the tenets of Desna, or the three elven 'lesser' gods, instead of Calistria, might help to soften their image. Calistria has a hard edge to her, and while it's entirely legal to play a CG cleric of Calistria (or a non-cleric follower of Calistria of any alignment), that's not how she's normally seen or portrayed.

Then again, there's certainly plenty of room in Golarion for elves to go the other direction. They've just come back to Golarion, to find that the majority of their former lands are swarming with humans (or other races), and that demons are allowed to run free by these apparently clueless races. It would be easy as pie for some elves to come to the conclusion that letting these humans take over was a mistake, and that they must expand and reclaim Golarion, starting with Treerazer, obviously, but then expanding outward and 'reclaiming' surrounding human nations.

An elven faction that believes that humans weren't quite done cooking yet, and, left to their own devices end up with nations full of slavery and nations full of atheists and nations full of devil worshippers and whatever the hell is going on in Galt, would have no shortage of 'evidence' that the wise but firm hand of elven rule is needed to straighten them out and save them from themselves and provide a benevolent guiding hand...

Cue elven 'advisors' showing up by the thousands to 'help' benighted human nations squabbling among themselves, offering stability and peace, placing themselves outside of local laws and insinuating themselves into positions of authority and effectively turning the nations they've 'helped' into puppet regimes.

[Orthos]

Set wrote:

Then again, there's certainly plenty of room in Golarion for elves to go the other direction. They've just come back to Golarion, to find that the majority of their former lands are swarming with humans (or other races), and that demons are allowed to run free by these apparently clueless races. It would be easy as pie for some elves to come to the conclusion that letting these humans take over was a mistake, and that they must expand and reclaim Golarion, starting with Treerazer, obviously, but then expanding outward and 'reclaiming' surrounding human nations.

An elven faction that believes that humans weren't quite done cooking yet, and, left to their own devices end up with nations full of slavery and nations full of atheists and nations full of devil worshippers and whatever the hell is going on in Galt, would have no shortage of 'evidence' that the wise but firm hand of elven rule is needed to straighten them out and save them from themselves and provide a benevolent guiding hand...

Cue elven 'advisors' showing up by the thousands to 'help' benighted human nations squabbling among themselves, offering stability and peace, placing themselves outside of local laws and insinuating themselves into positions of authority and effectively turning the nations they've 'helped' into puppet regimes.

Now this, this I like.