When someone is benefiting from magical flight; such as a sorcerer with fly, a wizard with overland flight, or a will'o'wisp; is it possible for such a character to fall?
Say a ruthless barbarian got past their magical defenses and successfully bullrushed them off a cliff, what happens (assuming they don't have something like feather fall)?
Do they just float, held in place by the magic? Or do they fall as much as 500 feet before they even have a chance to "react" and save themselves? I'm thinking the former since such creatures are already immune to trip attempts, which would cause them to "fall down," but I wanted to make certain.
I also ask because I'm wondering just how useful the Air Cushion wild talent really is for an aerokineticist who picks up Wings of Air and has a constant fly effect on themselves.
When someone is benefiting from magical flight; such as a sorcerer with fly, a wizard with overland flight, or a will'o'wisp; is it possible for such a character to fall?
Say a ruthless barbarian got past their magical defenses and successfully bullrushed them off a cliff, what happens (assuming they don't have something like feather fall)?
Do they just float, held in place by the magic? Or do they fall as much as 500 feet before they even have a chance to "react" and save themselves?
I ask because I'm wondering just how useful the Air Cushion wild talent really is for an aerokineticist who picks up Wings of Air and has a constant fly effect on themselves.
At our table the answer is no, they don't fall.
You continue to fly when it isn't your turn, so whether someone is changing your location for you or you are changing it yourself doesn't matter.
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Flying lets you avoid falling? Somebody let the Paladins know!
Flying lets you avoid falling? Somebody let the Paladins know!
So a Paladin losing his powers also becomes prone?
Does he remain prone until he regains those powers? (after all, he is a fallen Paladin)...
:D
Flying lets you avoid falling? Somebody let the Paladins know!So a Paladin losing his powers also becomes prone?
Does he remain prone until he regains those powers? (after all, he is a fallen Paladin)...
:D
Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!
The one thing I can see mixing this up a little is:
Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
So, if you're flying with wings and something your size or larger were to bull rush you, you would need to make a DC 25 fly check to avoid falling to the ground and taking falling damage.
There is a fly check to either remain flying (if someone bull rushes you mid air off the cliff of DC 25) so it makes sense that if someone bull rush you while on the ground that you could make a fly check (at an as of yet undetermined DC) to start flying and hover in place. Probably at least DC 15 since that is the Hover DC.
The one thing I can see mixing this up a little is:
Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.So, if you're flying with wings and something your size or larger were to bull rush you, you would need to make a DC 25 fly check to avoid falling to the ground and taking falling damage.
There is a fly check to either remain flying (if someone bull rushes you mid air off the cliff of DC 25) so it makes sense that if someone bull rush you while on the ground that you could make a fly check (at an as of yet undetermined DC) to start flying and hover in place. Probably at least DC 15 since that is the Hover DC.
Also regarding flying with wings... they never talk about wingspan.
RAW, you can send a Medium creature flying down a 5ft wide hallway...
So I guess their wings aren't larger than that?!?
The one thing I can see mixing this up a little is:
Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.So, if you're flying with wings and something your size or larger were to bull rush you, you would need to make a DC 25 fly check to avoid falling to the ground and taking falling damage.
There is a fly check to either remain flying (if someone bull rushes you mid air off the cliff of DC 25) so it makes sense that if someone bull rush you while on the ground that you could make a fly check (at an as of yet undetermined DC) to start flying and hover in place. Probably at least DC 15 since that is the Hover DC.
Also regarding flying with wings... they never talk about wingspan.
RAW, you can send a Medium creature flying down a 5ft wide hallway...
So I guess their wings aren't larger than that?!?
By that logic, no medium sized creature can fit down a 4 feet 11 inch wide hallway without squeezing.
By that logic, no medium sized creature can fit down a 4 feet 11 inch wide hallway without squeezing.The one thing I can see mixing this up a little is:
Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.So, if you're flying with wings and something your size or larger were to bull rush you, you would need to make a DC 25 fly check to avoid falling to the ground and taking falling damage.
There is a fly check to either remain flying (if someone bull rushes you mid air off the cliff of DC 25) so it makes sense that if someone bull rush you while on the ground that you could make a fly check (at an as of yet undetermined DC) to start flying and hover in place. Probably at least DC 15 since that is the Hover DC.
Also regarding flying with wings... they never talk about wingspan.
RAW, you can send a Medium creature flying down a 5ft wide hallway...
So I guess their wings aren't larger than that?!?
RAW, correct.
RAW, correct.By that logic, no medium sized creature can fit down a 4 feet 11 inch wide hallway without squeezing.The one thing I can see mixing this up a little is:
Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.So, if you're flying with wings and something your size or larger were to bull rush you, you would need to make a DC 25 fly check to avoid falling to the ground and taking falling damage.
There is a fly check to either remain flying (if someone bull rushes you mid air off the cliff of DC 25) so it makes sense that if someone bull rush you while on the ground that you could make a fly check (at an as of yet undetermined DC) to start flying and hover in place. Probably at least DC 15 since that is the Hover DC.
Also regarding flying with wings... they never talk about wingspan.
RAW, you can send a Medium creature flying down a 5ft wide hallway...
So I guess their wings aren't larger than that?!?
Sometimes I forget that so many people think logical interpretation is a houserule.
We could all stand to learn from Nefreet
Sometimes I forget that so many people think logical interpretation is a houserule.RAW, correct.By that logic, no medium sized creature can fit down a 4 feet 11 inch wide hallway without squeezing.The one thing I can see mixing this up a little is:
Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.So, if you're flying with wings and something your size or larger were to bull rush you, you would need to make a DC 25 fly check to avoid falling to the ground and taking falling damage.
There is a fly check to either remain flying (if someone bull rushes you mid air off the cliff of DC 25) so it makes sense that if someone bull rush you while on the ground that you could make a fly check (at an as of yet undetermined DC) to start flying and hover in place. Probably at least DC 15 since that is the Hover DC.
Also regarding flying with wings... they never talk about wingspan.
RAW, you can send a Medium creature flying down a 5ft wide hallway...
So I guess their wings aren't larger than that?!?
Oh I'm no idiot, I don't do it that literally myself, was just saying RAW says that...
Back to my point though, wingspan... wish they talked about it.
You should check my edit. Spouting "Well it's RAW" is not constructive to anything.
I also ask because I'm wondering just how useful the Air Cushion wild talent really is for an aerokineticist who picks up Wings of Air and has a constant fly effect on themselves.
As for the air cushion with Wings of Air it is of limited use but I could see a case for having both. Like if you are knocked out and can't fly you would still not be damaged by the fall.
Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!Flying lets you avoid falling? Somebody let the Paladins know!So a Paladin losing his powers also becomes prone?
Does he remain prone until he regains those powers? (after all, he is a fallen Paladin)...
:D
Should have got a Life Alert
By that logic, no medium sized creature can fit down a 4 feet 11 inch wide hallway without squeezing.
A medium creature needs 5ft of personal space to swing its weapon and react to threats. A medium creature in a 4'11" hallway does not have enough room to fight effectively and takes penalties as described in the CRB.
If you don't like 5' as the size of a square for a medium creature, you can change it, but whatever you change it to, squeezing is still binary: one inch more and your fine, one inch less and your squeezing.
Just out of curiosity, in just how narrow a hallway do you think a medium humanoid could swing a sword without penalty?
By that logic, no medium sized creature can fit down a 4 feet 11 inch wide hallway without squeezing.A medium creature needs 5ft of personal space to swing its weapon and react to threats. A medium creature in a 4'11" hallway does not have enough room to fight effectively and takes penalties as described in the CRB.
If you don't like 5' as the size of a square for a medium creature, you can change it, but whatever you change it to, squeezing is still binary: one inch more and your fine, one inch less and your squeezing.
Just out of curiosity, in just how narrow a hallway do you think a medium humanoid could swing a sword without penalty?
I said fit, not fight. The two are different things.
I said fit, not fight. The two are different things.By that logic, no medium sized creature can fit down a 4 feet 11 inch wide hallway without squeezing.A medium creature needs 5ft of personal space to swing its weapon and react to threats. A medium creature in a 4'11" hallway does not have enough room to fight effectively and takes penalties as described in the CRB.
If you don't like 5' as the size of a square for a medium creature, you can change it, but whatever you change it to, squeezing is still binary: one inch more and your fine, one inch less and your squeezing.
Just out of curiosity, in just how narrow a hallway do you think a medium humanoid could swing a sword without penalty?
Squeezing isn't literal. Squeezing just means a creature doesn't have enough room to fight effectively and takes a penalty.
A medium creature cannot fit down a 4'11" hallway without taking a penalty. A medium creature cannot fit down a 4'11" hallway without squeezing.
If you were using the literal definition of squeezing, well I don't really understand your original comment.
I said fit, not fight. The two are different things.By that logic, no medium sized creature can fit down a 4 feet 11 inch wide hallway without squeezing.A medium creature needs 5ft of personal space to swing its weapon and react to threats. A medium creature in a 4'11" hallway does not have enough room to fight effectively and takes penalties as described in the CRB.
If you don't like 5' as the size of a square for a medium creature, you can change it, but whatever you change it to, squeezing is still binary: one inch more and your fine, one inch less and your squeezing.
Just out of curiosity, in just how narrow a hallway do you think a medium humanoid could swing a sword without penalty?
Squeezing isn't literal. Squeezing just means a creature doesn't have enough room to fight effectively and takes a penalty.
A medium creature cannot fit down a 4'11" hallway without taking a penalty. A medium creature cannot fit down a 4'11" hallway without squeezing.
If you were using the literal definition of squeezing, well I don't really understand your original comment.
The point of the comment is that logic must fill in the gap where RAW does not suffice, not vice-versa.
That is for colliding with an object. A person is not an object.The one thing I can see mixing this up a little is:
Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.So, if you're flying with wings and something your size or larger were to bull rush you, you would need to make a DC 25 fly check to avoid falling to the ground and taking falling damage.
There is a fly check to either remain flying (if someone bull rushes you mid air off the cliff of DC 25) so it makes sense that if someone bull rush you while on the ground that you could make a fly check (at an as of yet undetermined DC) to start flying and hover in place. Probably at least DC 15 since that is the Hover DC.
Irrelevant, I never said a person was an object or that this rule exactly covered the situation. Merely pointing out an analogous situation to the idea of being bull rushed.
Ignoring game definitions that have mechanical repercussions in certain ways, creatures are definitely still objects. And in my mind rules for "colliding with an object" are much closer to representing what should happen with someone tries to rush you like a linebacker than being hit by a sword. But we do at least agree on one thing. There aren't rules written to cover this specifically, but as I noted we can extrapolate.
A creature is not an object. A creature's body is an object. Not in the definition of Pathfinder for purposes such as spell targeting and the like, but a person's body is indeed a real physical thing.
I like Claxon's take on this. I believe it's fair and well reasoned.
The point of the comment is that logic must fill in the gap where RAW does not suffice, not vice-versa.I said fit, not fight. The two are different things.By that logic, no medium sized creature can fit down a 4 feet 11 inch wide hallway without squeezing.A medium creature needs 5ft of personal space to swing its weapon and react to threats. A medium creature in a 4'11" hallway does not have enough room to fight effectively and takes penalties as described in the CRB.
If you don't like 5' as the size of a square for a medium creature, you can change it, but whatever you change it to, squeezing is still binary: one inch more and your fine, one inch less and your squeezing.
Just out of curiosity, in just how narrow a hallway do you think a medium humanoid could swing a sword without penalty?
Squeezing isn't literal. Squeezing just means a creature doesn't have enough room to fight effectively and takes a penalty.
A medium creature cannot fit down a 4'11" hallway without taking a penalty. A medium creature cannot fit down a 4'11" hallway without squeezing.
If you were using the literal definition of squeezing, well I don't really understand your original comment.
There is no 'gap' to fill. Me saying that it is RAW is merely a statement of fact.
You listed an example that would have the squeezing rules apply.
Not liking it doesn't change what the game developers wrote.
Like you, I also think it is silly, we feel the same way about it.
I don't apply squeezing rules unless it makes sense: Kobold warren (small creatures)-YUP! Medium creatures are gonna have trouble.
Natural cave roughly five feet wide?-NOPE! No penalties for medium creatures.
No need to get into more detail than that, IMO. Essentially, I work by scales... if you are inside something scaled for a creature one (or more) size categories smaller than you, THAT is when you use those rules.
Yeah I'm not sure why in game terms you'd ever need to know that a space was 4'11" wide anyway. That's never going to come up at the table. Either a space is big enough or it isn't, and that's all you need to know about it.
You saying it is RAW is a statement of how you interpret the rules and nothing more.
But I'm not going to get into one of these arguments because there's no point to it. Good day.
You saying it is RAW is a statement of how you interpret the rules and nothing more.
But I'm not going to get into one of these arguments because there's no point to it. Good day.
Me saying it is RAW is a statement of what the book says.
There is no argument here.
Just statement of fact.
You not liking how the written rules work doesn't somehow negate what is written.
I don't really get why it's a sticking point anyway; we're all presumably OK with abstracting away differences in character height, weight, and width down to a system where you're either Small or Medium - of *course* the system is going to do the same thing with spaces.
While this discussion is riveting... it literally has nothing to do with the original question poised by Ravingdork. So let's get back on topic, if you want to continue arguing, please take it to another thread or PM.
Due to the magical nature of aerokineticist's flight, you would definitely not just fall to your death. You aren't using wings for flight, so a majority of the Fly skill does not matter. It is as per the spell Fly, which has specific rules how to handle the situation. Magical flight is not at all like natural flight which requires constant motion to maintain lift.
As Faelyn stated, no fly check is necessary for things like this with supernatural flight and the like as movement is based on though: you could be pushed but you otherwise don't move (gravity doesn't count as pushing). However, if our party witch has the flight hex and it's not active, he/she has to still spend a standard action on their next turn to turn on the flight ability (if they are still alive by then).
I also ask because I'm wondering just how useful the Air Cushion wild talent really is for an aerokineticist who picks up Wings of Air and has a constant fly effect on themselves.As for the air cushion with Wings of Air it is of limited use but I could see a case for having both. Like if you are knocked out and can't fly you would still not be damaged by the fall.
This is a really good point. I intend to be spending a lot of time in the air, so if I get "shot down" I would very much like to not be finished off by falling damage.
Do we know for certain though that an unconscious person would fall and doesn't just continue to float?
You cannot ignore fly checks. The fly spell (also relevant for flight hex) even specifically says "The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level." thus confirming that fly checks DO still matter while using the spell fly. Because such a bonus wouldn't make any sense at all if you just ignored fly checks entirely. PLUS the fly skill page says "You are skilled at flying, either through the use of wings or magic" again confirming that it applies to magical flight.
Thus, you only get a free pass on anything in the fly check rules that specifically state that it only affects winged flight. That would include: attacks, and collisions. Nothing else.
Anything else in the fly skill that suggests falling if you fail the check, such as "Move less than half your speed and remain flying: DC 10" would definitely still apply to the spell.
If you don't "remain flying" then clearly you're falling. So yes if you don't move fast enough all the time, or stand still entirely (hover), and fail your check, you will fall.
Sorry unclear wording, the collision check from someone bull rushing you is negated, which is what I meant, but I did not mean it ignores all checks for flying precisely and the like.
Crimeo, The magical forms of flight still have you only move up or down, left right, forward or back by consciously doing so or by a non-gravitational force while active, even if it is at different rates. That is the difference between falling off with wings and just floating there with magic flight.
_Ozy_, fying creatures don't have a prone position, so tripping and similar effects are useless.
So, a pixie is immune to the special effect of a force bomb, whereas a multi-ton golem can get knocked on its ass.
By Zeus, sometimes Pathfinder is wacky. ;)
"flying creatures don't have a prone position, so tripping and similar effects are useless"
emphasis on useless not immune.
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Not really a direct citation, but a point by omission:
A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.
Since it does not mention wingless creatures flying (aka magical fliers) falling when they are blocked from flying or otherwise forced to fly when they weren't flying before hand. Then a magical flier wouldn't fall while their flight ability is up even if someone made them suddenly have to start flying.
On the original question: Reverse Gravity says "Creatures who can fly or levitate can keep themselves from falling." I'd say that counts for normal gravity, too.
* Move less than half speed and remain flying: This does NOT specify winged flight, and it says "and remain flying" so I think it would clearly apply to magical flight and a possibility of falling. If you move less than half speed, and fail this check, you no longer "remain flying," which is a synonym for falling. Whether winged or magical flight. This is the clearest case.
The Fly skill rules are clearly written with winged flight in mind and are directly contradicted by the the "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking" part in the Fly spell. Since moving less then half speed doesn't require a check when walking, doing that while using a fly spell can't either, otherwise that sentence in the spell description wouldn't be true. I'd say this is a case of "specific trumps general".
Ok, so let's say I do have to make a fly check (to remain flying, to not fall off the cliff or whatever; active Fly spell). Lets say I fail that check, then what happens? Please quote the rule that says I fall.
I would agree that one would fall if unconscious (due to the "as easy as walking" bit I'd say floating is as hard as standing still).
Not really a direct citation, but a point by omission:Actual written rules take precedence over not-written omissions.
There is an actual, written rule that if you don't move half your speed in a turn while flying, you have to make a check "to remain flying". This rule does not specify wings.
Thus, if you stand still, and don't make said check (which you can't if paralyzed), you don't "remain flying" i.e. you fall. That's the only thing that not remaining flying can mean.
Except that if you're paralyzed, you can still consciously float since magical flight is based on thought not flapping wings.
Also please try to argue that having to move half your speed during a round doesn't obviously have to do with gliding lift effects but instead has to do with magical levitation.
Not really a direct citation, but a point by omission:Actual written rules take precedence over not-written omissions.
There is an actual, written rule that if you don't move half your speed in a turn while flying, you have to make a check "to remain flying". This rule does not specify wings.
Thus, if you stand still, and don't make said check (which you can't if paralyzed), you don't "remain flying" i.e. you fall. That's the only thing that not remaining flying can mean.
So, if someone dispels your fly spell, you descend slowly.
If you fail a fly check, you plummet.
Correct?
No, because you don't have to make a check to levitate with magical flight, although some fail to see that.