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Oh, sorry about that.

I agree 100% with Drahliana. Even after some research I did while preparing my character (like ways to improve scrolls hardness or hitpoints, using other spells or magic items) there is no way to do so.
The class is specifically designed to use fragile scrolls as weapon, and the scrollblade rules supersedes general magic weapon rules.
Short story : a 2nd level scrolls had 0 hardness and 2 hit points. no way to go around that.
Rules even specify that that damage cannot be repaired in any way (although the scroll is still perfectly readable as long as 1 hit point remains)

you can find info about variant multiclassing Here (scroll down a bit)

I'm playing a scroll-master in my current campaign.

True, carrying a few 2-nd level scrolls give you an ample supply of +1 short sword (although, you can only allow 1 hit if you want to keep the scroll. 2 hits destroys it.)

If you want, you can try to truly focus on scrollfigthing.
Eldritch knight sounds like a good plan.

To push it further, consider taking variant multiclassing : magus.

it eats up half you feat progression, but allows you to STACK enhancement bonus on your scrolls.

that 8th level scroll is now instantly a +4 reach vorpal short sword. no kidding, you can do that :)

Also, since the scrollmaster's class allows you to treat scrolls as weapon, my DM allowed me to apply Quickdraw to scrolls. Nice bonus.

Damn, you both brought good points.

Thanks for pointing out where I got wrong.

@KingOfAnything
Indeed, that section of text (I skipped over) explains exactly how "leaving slots open" works.

@Gevurah
I thought I was clever for shortening the quote, but it was indeed a mistake. My (previously) bolded part is Conditional to the situation where the rest is interrupted. It isn't a general rule for any situation where you study Spells.

That wraps it up.

Thank you !

Hi.

So, I'm looking at Fast study :

Benefit: Normally, a wizard spends 1 hour preparing all of his spells for the day, or proportionately less if he only prepares some spells, with a minimum of 15 minutes of preparation. Thanks to mental discipline and clever mnemonics, you can prepare all of your spells in only 15 minutes, and your minimum preparation time is only 1 minute.

As far as I understand it, the purpose of the Discovery is leaving spell slots open, to fill them "on the fly" during adventure with minimal time. As written, it sounds like a good use of a feat, and very practical.

Here's why I have a problem. Under the general magic rules and wizard spells preparation, we find this :

To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period.[...] and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells.

(emphasis mine)

So, this would mean that even if a Wizard purposely leaving some slots open and then in the middle of the adventure decides to study a spell, he needs :
A) 1 hour of uninterrupted rest
B) 1 min to study the spell (rather than the normal 15 min needed)

Is this the intended ruling ?

I can't see any situation where fast study is useful, if all it can do is reducing the time for studying on the fly from 75 to 61 min.

(It also reduces total studying time from 1h to 15 min, but I've never had a single game / campaign where this would have had any impact)

Hi,

I'm going to re-necro this thread too since I have some questions.

Use the Poison steep on a pound of berries or nuts and you have virtually unlimited poison attempts per day.

Since Evil Eye ALWAYS works for at least 1 round the penalty from Toxic Words is negated and the target effectively needs to make a DC 19 save again or eat 1D3 Con damage

First part : I agree the wording is unclear, but my interpretation would be that Poison steep allows you to create a single dose of ingested poison.

Another valid and more lenient interpretation (from my point of view) would be that the "pound of food" contains a single dose of poison, but you don't have to consume it all for it to work. How frustrating would it be to offer that whole basket of poisonous berries, only to see your enemy pick a handful and leave the rest there? Ability wasted. I would rule "any creature eating the poisoned food must save as affected by the poison spell. Upon having affected a single creature (the first to taste the food) the rest of the poisoned food becomes inert".

Second part : About evil eye and Toxic words, the wording from toxic words goes like this :
if the creature fails its save against the hex, the poison is expended and the creature must succeed at a Fortitude save against the poison or become poisoned

So regardless of the fact that a successful save on evil eye still means the creature is affected (by evil eye) for one round, that's still a successful save. So the poison doesn't go into effect. To have to save against the poison, the target must fail its save against the Hex, not be affected by it.

And, lastly, a question :

assuming your target fails it's will save against Evil eye + toxic words, and you choose to apply a Save debuff using evil eye. Does the save penalty from evil Eye applies on the fortitude save against poison? Or are the two effect simultaneous, and it doesn't ?

if the creature fails its save against the hex, the poison is expended and the creature must succeed at a Fortitude save against the poison or become poisoned

In the first case, the two abilities combo well together.
In the second, it means that in order to maximize your chances, you first have to make your opponent fail its save against Evil eye (targeting saves debuff) and without using toxic word to avoid nerfing the DC by -2.
Then on the following round, you use toxic word (in combination with your Hex of choice) to deliver the poison to benefit the Saves penalty delivered by Evil Eye.

It doesn't even imply that you normaly can't take 10 without the feat

I'm cautiously pointing out that the fact that Pass for human (and now, also Quick change) specify you can take 10 on disguise check with those feat, intent to suggest that if this needs specification, it is because you cannot otherwise. So we disagree on that point.

It's not up to one feat to decide the core rules of an entire skill.

I do agree with you there. Despite the fact we now have two examples of feat specification stating when you CAN take 10 (implying normally you can't) the might be insufficient evidence to rule on the matter, as CampinCarl9127 pointed out.

The discussion on the previous pages (quoting rules of using skills in general) might offer a better interpretation of the rules than the two RAW counter-evidence of those specific feats.

A quick survey of the thread shows this hasn't been mentioned yet : the Pass for human feat, which states :

You receive a +10 bonus on Disguise checks to disguise yourself as a human, and do not receive the penalty for disguising yourself as a member of another race when you do so. In areas largely populated or settled by humans, you can take 10 on your Disguise check, meaning most people tend to assume you are human unless given a reason to think otherwise.

Emphasis mine.

Since specific trumps general, I would argue that in any other conditions you cannot take 10 on disguise checks.

However, it is possible that the feat might just be badly written (specifying you can take 10, when in fact you always can). We all remember Prone shooter...

True, but RAW, since both archetypes I was looking for "replaces the 10th level Hex", they are incompatible.

Although a very lenient GM might allow them to be combined on the condition you MUST pick the "Extra Hex" feat at level 10, and then anyway throw it out the window to satisfy the condition of "having replacing the 10th level hex class power" two times.

But i wouldn't count on that.

Oh.

Silly me, you are right.

I was looking too close at the witch class table, which reads at level 10 :
"Hex, major hex"

[S]he doesn't get both, it indeed just means you can choose a Major Hex whenever you get and additional Hex.

My bad, but thank you :)

Hi.

I'm looking at the Veneficus Witch Archetype. Which states :
"This ability replaces the witch's 2nd- and 10th-level hexes."

I'm having trouble with the interpretation here.
the witch normally gets a single [normal] Hex at 2nd level, and both a [normal] Hex and a Major Hex at 10th level.

Does the wording indicates it replaces both the normal and major 10th level hexes? or just the normal hexes, leaving the Major one intact?

When reading other archetypes, it is pointed when one's references to a normal, major or Grand hex, such an exemple here :
"This ability replaces the major hex granted at 10th level."

I would like to combine two archetypes, but I must first make sure both do not replace the same class powers, which would make the combination invalid.

Thanks for your help.

511. The Uprising

The party travels to a large city and are shocked to discover that skeletal minions live among the populace. A local religious cult does a great job at selling and promoting the (surprisingly) cheap, replaceable, and tough working mindless creatures that never sleep, eat nor rest.

While at first a “new fashion” item to show-off by the nobility, the undead quickly gained popularity among the middle class as house-keepers and workers, while also serving as great fodder for the Arena. The events culminated into a recent slave&gladiator-freeing movement.

But not everybody approves of this, no matter the Good of successfully outlawing slavery or how great the newly-found prosperity of the city are. The local temple of Iomadae, along with a part of the populace, has a clearly established opinion on the matter: Raising the dead calls for unequivocally Evil magic, and the (seemingly) unending supply of dead bodies and onyx gems needed for the rituals is extremely suspicious at best.

The rising tension between these two parties is slowly escalating towards what will undoubtedly be a civil war. Little does anybody know, a long-deceased and forgotten Lich has recently woken from slumber, and is pulling the strings. While secretly providing the necessary materials for the animation of the dead, It is plotting to reclaim control of all the undead minions to massacre the whole city and create an army to conquer the continent.

Depends on your GM.

Some GMs fail to recognize that your heroes should become heroic. Those GMs might, when you're level 1, set the DC to find a Secret Door to be just a 20. Your character with 14 perception would find 75% of those secret doors. That same GM would set the DC at 40 when you're 10th level and at 60 when you're 20th level because he wants to keep challenging you with harder and harder challenges.

For that kind of GM, you will NEVER feel like a hero because everything is always hard to do, and you will always need to keep pumping up your Perception.

Other GMs recognize that you should be rewarded for your investment and your escalating status as a hero. These GMs keep the DC the same forever, so even your level 20 character with +50 on your Perception check still only needs to beat the same old DC 20 to find typical secret doors. You could literally find those with your eyes shut and your hands tied behind your back. Because you're an awesome hero.

[...]

Exactly what DM_Blake said.

some challenges have increasing DC, such as finding traps. DC for finding traps usually range from 20 to 35, depending on the cahllenge, which you should expect to rise as your character grow.

Same goes for stealthy opponents. If you face NPC assassins and the like, expect the DC to beat their stealth check to escalate as the game progresses. In this case, maxing out perception torough the campaing is a viable answer.

Other than that, normally most DC are Static.
Maybe you would want to make sure with your DM if he is the type to escalate any DC as the game progresses, or if he will stick the "lower" DC mentionned in this thread, such as DC 20 for most secret doors.

Just as an example, here are a few that can give you a sense of how percertive your character is supposed to be as he get better with the perception skill:

Dc 10 : Hear the details of a normal-voice-level conversation through a massonery wall.

DC 20 : Hearing a key being turned in a lock

Dc 25 : Hearing a creature walking closely during your sleep

Dc 30 : Hearing a bow being drawned from 50 ft away in good conditions.

DC 40 : Notice something is amiss : A large invisble object is standing in the middle of a room (missing dust on the ground, eco from conversation is wrong, etc.)

How about some teamwork feats ?

I made , back in the day, a pair of phalanx soldier (fighter 10, mythic guardian 3) that worked perfectly with each other by staying adjacent.

They were pumping AOO like there were no tomorrow (each benefiting the others abilities), and thanks to feats like stand still, combat patrol, etc, they optimized their reach and prevented enemies from moving to them.

Edit : to make that happen, check if you could work with the leadership feat. might give you a cohort to up to your level-2.

[...]
Is it just like running an NPC, but less fun? More fun? How about intelligent item abilities? Are they difficult to track and remember?

[...]

In one my favorite campaigns as a player, the GM had an history of creating housemade extravagant intelligents items.

Basically, a fun-to-play-with intelligent item offers abilities that are powerful or useful enough that the players will want to use it as much as possible, yet contains restrictions that will limit how much they can rely on it, but in an entertaining way.

For example, my group had a lot of trouble with the information gathering part of an adventure, and the GM made us discover an artifact giant wooden head sculpture that had godlike-omniscience. however, it could only answer to question with yes or no , and had a personality of getting offended at certain type of questioning and go dormant for a while when that happened after throwing a few harmless insults. All that together made for a memorable experience.

Intelligent items, imho, are easier to deal with (as DM) than resourceful NPCs.

Where an NPC posses something the players want (might it be resources, spell casting, physical help, contacts...) but the players struggle to obtain it from him, they can get frustrated and try to hammer (sometime literally) the NPC into service, eventually getting angry when they fail and blaming the NPC for their failures.

With an intelligent item ,they never act like so. They might struggle to make it do what they want, but it will always be a game . Instead of getting frustrated against the other party's motivations, humanity, and personality, they know they can't force the item to do want they want. If it doesn't comply, that's because it's his nature , that's was IT IS.
They only have themselves to blame, and know they can do better.

[Edit]
Loved the carpet, it's an excellent example :)

I agree.

My interpretation would be that it is the same as when a walking creature gets bull-rushed or dragged, it stays on its feet. it doesn't fall prone because "it's not his turn to use the actions to walk".

I think your setting is awesome.

One of the thing I liked the most about running a (short) high level campaign was designing overpowered enemies, and going all-out with character building (most of them were npc-characters, not monsters per say.)

Although i don'T have specific suggestions for you, i would point out that you should feel free to tweak monsters in order to have a greater selection of challenges to choose from.
By that, I mean that you would find relatively very little creatures worth a CR22+ in all bestiaries.

For example, templates are great.
a +5 template can turn a measly Cr17 monster into "the First of his race" for a greater challenge :)

Adding a few class levels is great. Want to make good use of the across-the-board great stats of metallic dragons ? throw in a couple level of paladin/anti-paladin/monk.
An ancient dragon with a +10 modifier on charisma using Smite good is a terror to behold.
The added class features that players usually dip for in those classes will make a great difference :)

And finally, intelligent monsters should have access (and be able to profit from) magic items. Feel like the CR 20 Pit fiend have a too low AC ? throw in a +5 ring of deflection to balance the scales.

You just happens to be about to prepare something that I love to do, So please give us some news about how the thing is going if you can :)

If you're still looking in some mechanics to acquire a familiar, you can check up this thread :

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t104?Feat-paths-to-get-a-familiar-wich-is-bett er

It's more about the feats route to get there than about character builds, but it can unlock a few options for you. You might want to check it out.

I'm fine with the discussion so far suggesting that a non-magical arrow fired from a +5 bow counts as a +5 arrow for all intent and purposes, including bypassing Dr/alignment.

After all, that's how it was understood it worked in every group i played so far. Yes I know archers are strong, but I don't see myself nerfing them in my groups by applying what some have suggested here, so far.

I do have a question about the enhancement stacking, however.

I fire a non magical arrow from a +5 bow = I fire a +5 arrow
I fire a +5 arrow from a +2 bow = I fire a +5 arrow.

But...

If I fire a +1 flaming burst arrow from a +2 bow, what happens?
if only the highest bonus applies, we could deduce the arrow ends up as a +1 flaming burst arrow (equivalent +3 bonus).

Is there any way it can stack constructively ?
In the previous scenario, could I end up with a +2 flaming burst arrow ,by stacking the best enchantment of both weapon and ammunition?

If not... does that mean that if I fire a +1 flaming burst arrow (eq. +3) from a +1 adaptive composite bow (eq. +2), the bow loses the adaptive property because the enhancement of the arrow supersedes the ench. of the bow ?

Yeah...but all of the other non-adamantine stuff is on the inside!

:D

Funny, but i kind of agree with that.

Plus, I'm surprised nobody quote that rule on Monster DR :
Apparently, that was back in 3.5, not PF.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ow2u?Overcoming-your-own-damage-reduction

Good morning, all !

Just an update:

After exploring my option (and there were a lot of those !) I chose to variant multiclass sorcerer (destined bloodline), and apply the bloodline familiar, replacing my "1st" level bloodline power.

So I get the familiar on level 3 (counting my full wizard level for its statistics), and unlock the other bloodline powers a bit later on.

Second choice was variant multiclassing Magus. The Arcane pool class features stacks really well with the scrollmaster's ability to treat magical scrolls as magic weapons.

Party : Hey, john, We have to banish this imprison demon back to its plane, here, you're the only one who can read the Scroll of banishement we found. Go ahead.

John : There you go

Too bad variant multiclassing with magus gives only so few "magus arcana". They're are a lot of good choices, but I only get one at 7, 15, and 19th level. And I would want to use the 7th one for the familiar, so...

Anyway, good day to you all, and thanks for the help !

PC isn't human.

In fact, the whole group is playing a homebrewed race that was constructed all together for that specific campaign. Either way, "alternate racial trait" were outlawed in character creation.

I don't worry about the RP. we played 5 games so far (we're level 2), and there are so many players (9) that we are still discovering everybody's character.
Even if that wasn't the case, the GM is pretty lenient with allowing minor changes to the classes and care less about character continuity than about the players really playing what they want to do.

A CMB guy with Wizard secondary might technically qualify for Knowledge Is Power.

Knowledge is power was already my reserved wizard bonus feat I was planning on selecting on 5th level, considering none other discovery nor metamagic feat nor item creations appealed to me at the moment.

a (+5) bonus ot my CMB is nice, but will really Shine on my CMD.

I'm impressed about the wasp familiar ! Too bad I have no intention to play a chaotic Neutral, and my DM will never greenligth this easy option (which I'm fine with).

I suggested variant multiclassing. The approval is pending, but in the meanwhile I'm looking at my options. Thanks for suggestion, I'll check up what I can do with the arcanist or other sorcerer bloodlines :)

Didn't even know about variant multiclassing. Reading about it right now.

In any case, thank you first the insigth.
After talking to my GM (and pointing to this thread), it seems an acceptable balance that
Path #1 cost three feats, but iron will is arguably better than skill focus (know.)
path #2 cost two feats, but familiar is at CL-2 for all intent and purposes, including qualifying for improved familiar.

I still haven't decided which way I'll go, but at least the question is settled.

Thanks !

In my current campaign, I’m playing a scrollmaster wizard, an archetype that replaces the arcane bond class feature. I’m willing to spend some feat investment in order to regain it. At the moment, I have 2 open feats at level 1, then another on 3rd ,5th, etc.
So far, I found two ways of doing this, which are as follows:

First Path: Grab Iron will and
familiar bond at 1st level, and improved familiar bond on 3rd.
It’s a 3 feat investment for a full-familiar, or 2 feat if I’m ready to forgo most of the advantages of having one (wich I'm not). It allows carrying the little friend beginning on level 1, and gain the full advantages on level 3.

This path was initially my first choice, since as far as I knew it was the only one. However, I just discovered another way:

First, get Skill focus (any knowledge) to fulfill the next feat prerequisites. The other level 1 feat is unspent.
At level 3, grab Eldritch Heritage (Arcane bloodline).

This gives me the first level power of the associated sorcerer bloodline :

So, the second path only necessitates a 2-feat investment, but asks for a 13 Cha prerequisite. Although both end up with a full familiar at level 3, the second path gives me nothing until there.

However, considering the second path, I’m not sure how to consider my effective caster level both for the powers of the familiar, and for qualifying for the improved familiar feat.
Eldritch Heritage goes like : “ For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer.”

Howerver, the Arcane bond sorcerer power says : “ you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. "

My question is this:
So… suppose I am a level 5 wizard. Am I considered a level 3 wizard (character level -2 ) for calculating familiar powers and minimum caster level for improved familiar, or do I follow the Arcane bond rule from the sorcerer, where my 5 Wiz levels stacks with my effective sorcerer level (3) ?

(Note : Altough, RAW states I would be “level 8” (5+3), I think RAI I should be considered 5, wich is my total Character level.)

edit : I don't know how to spell Which.

little something of what I hav to say from my experience, since opinions look divided on the subject:

Using mythic in my game was a headache.

I added myhthic in my campaing from level 9-17 (MR 1 to 5 in between)

Pay attention to was the players are picking, because some bonuses are game-breaking, other are just crazy good. For exemple :

Thnaks to mythic power attack, the falchion wielding fighther no longer had to weigth wether an enemy was worth the penalty to hit for the increased damage. Also, almost every round, a critical hit would land for over 100+ damage.

The Mythic paladin pretty much one or two-shotted every enemy it could msite, thanks to mythic vital strike.

The arcanist when from 3x CL 8 fireballs per day to 6x CL 10 fireballs per day, 3 of wich are cast as swift actions, and also had acess to every spell he didin't know thanks to mythic spellcasting.
Also, he could craft every magic item in the book without any mundane feat.

Sure, you can scale up everything else if you want to and have tons of fun doing it,
but past level ~13-14 and MR 3-4, I started hitting a wall where there's only so much you can add to boost your monsters.
The prepared Pit fiend was below "boss-fight" difficulty for them at this point...

Edit : Oh, I almost forgot. The worst was the "extra standard action for 1 mythic power" at MR3 I think, wich thep layers quickly understood was very useful to either :
1) close in instantly on their opponent to deliver a full-attack on the first round of combat (wich also made it the last...)
2 ) Deliver a SECOND mythic vital strike
3) use the "total defense action" at the end of your turn. Sure, you're giving up your AOO for the but also add a free +6 dodge to your AC, every round, at no cost.

Something to think about...

As far as I understand it, summoned creature do not planar travel to answer a summon. What you call is a "projection" of the creature from its home plane.

If you want to move objects between planes using called creatures, my ruling would be to really have the creature itself planar travel, as with the spells planar binding and the like.

Which, incidently , explains why summoned creatures mostly have no problems obeying very dangerous or self-destructive orders. When the summoned creatures "dies", it just ends the summoning, and the creature gets (painfully) zapped back to what it was doing at home.

why didnt you throw him out? from what you posted is more like (sorry for say this like that) 50% half-assed-reading and other half lazy player and not "weak" knowledge of language

That wasn't really an option. The group of players we had around the table (5 in total) were all friends or close acquaintances. Kicking someone out would have affected relationships, and was a bit egoist.

I was the one the most affected by the player's ignorance of the rules (as a DM). The other player though it was barely more than an occasional annoyance. Plus, he didn't mean it. He was actually trying to pay attention to the rules, he just was really bad at it.

Later in the campaign, another of the 5 players left for personals reasons, and the gaming group was severely affected. It finally collapsed about 6 weeks later.

From your personal experiences playing and/or running Pathfinder games, what are some things you've seen people doing blatantly wrong in terms of rules? I'm not talking about problematic attitudes, boring plots, or awkward house rules here, just people unintentionally messing up the actual rules of the game.

Another title for this thread could be: "What are some often overlooked or misunderstood Pathfinder rules?"

For me, it would be all the very popular spells that have a casting time of 1 round that are often allowed to be cast as a standard action because nobody remembers their actual casting times.

Another common mistake is that the Diplomacy skill is not an unlimited charm person spell, no matter how high your bonus is.

Also, in the ongoing debate about how arcane spellcasters can easily duplicate lots of traditional rogue skills, people always forget that stuff like knock and disguise self still require skill checks, they're not instant success win buttons.

I had this player, in my last game as a GM.

the rest of the time, just a slight misunderstanding of what he read made a balanced power into and overpowered one. Given, he had a bit of difficulty with English, but what was most annoying was that he would not realize that he did not understand fully was he read. He would interpret it as he saw fit.

A few examples (and god knows, I could go all day giving more of them)

- Starting as a level 1 summoner, he misread a few combined abilities that "raised the caster level of his summoning spells" (or something like that) to "raise the spell level". He was pretty much dominating the first day of a level 1 campaign by throwing around several "summon monster III" a day, each lasting 1 minute.

- Use the spell skinsend as was intended, except, you know, for all the drawbacks. He pretty much used it as a free, second-level spell, daily clone, and thought than when he was killed in his skin, his consciousness was just transfered back into his body. Or that he could scout with the skin, then not bother with walking the way back, end the spell, and continue the adventure normally (no loss of pv).

-Forgot that there was a 10d6 limit on fireball, and regularly throw around 12-13d6 fireballs at level 7-8 (with several legit caster level boosts, including mythic levels). Took a while to notice the dice pool was too large.

- Choosed the School Understanding arcane exploit (see the arcanist class) to get a good wizard school power, with a min/maxed High intel, low-cha character.
forgot to read the part that said that said "using her Charisma modifier in place of her Intelligence modifier for this ability".
Which meant that he was freely switching elements of his evocation spell 7/day instead of a maximum of 2 or 3/day.
Given his knowledge checks, it pretty much meant that any energy resistance on the monsters meant nothing, since he could adapt his fireball to any element necessary. I don't think there ever was a day where he needed more than his daily allowance of 7. 2 or 3 would have made a great difference in his combat ability.

- etc.

I might sound like an impatient or really irritable DM by my way of speaking, but truth is there rarely was a game session where we did not have to stall the game at some point to check up his abilities/spells in the rulebooks. Whenever his character performed surprisingly well in any task, we had to check up if he misread/misunderstood any rules. And sadly, about 75% of the time, we were right :-/

It really added up in the long run, and became taxing on me.

In another game, he became at some point bored of his character, and asked to GM to switch out character class (I wasn't DM'ing in that one). I agree that enjoying the game (and his character) is more important than sticking to it, and I'm not here to argue the point.
however, it always went out in that sequence :
- Player get bored of current character. Spots a really nice class build / archetype he would like to try out. Ask DM to change. Gm agrees.
- Player is surprisingly effective with the new class. Get progressively pointed out everything he misunderstood about the build, and corrects it.
-Player realize, after a few games and corrections, that his character is just average, in the end.
-Gets bored, spots another class. Gets excited.
Rinse, repeat... Happened trice in a campaign spanning about 6 months.

If only , at any point , he would have asked around any of the other more experienced players about his planned build, most could have pointed out several misunderstandings. But he was more of a secretive "I can't wait to surprise the DM with all my new class shenanigans" type of guy.

Sorry for the long post, I guess I had to wind out about that for a long time :O

Don't get me wrong, that players was still a lot of fun around the table, and his play really brought a lot of life to the game sessions. But these problems added up and wore me out in the end. Maybe I'm just to much of a "rule-nazi", or have become too rigid with the game after the accumulated experience with the pathfinder ruleset, and have trouble dealing with more casual / less experienced players.

Have to agree that mythic ranks really blows everything out of the window.

It's easy to make a character that can one-shot about anything as soon as you are allowed a melee attack roll.

For a bit more fun / diversity, I would suggest going for something that usually is a PAIN to level up and play with, but is quite powerful come the late levels : A mystic Theurge. (prestige class)

you pretty much get the full spell-casting ability of both wizard and a cleric, up to 8th level spells. Then you can have fun with that :)
of course, feel free to switch out wizard/cleric for nay combination of arcane/divine spellcaster you want to go with.

So, in retro-respect, if anyone is thinking of using Cerberus in a campaign...

You can make what you want of the information here, but here's a few suggestions :

I think, as a huge creature, Cerberus is too small.
I feel adding the giant Simple monster template would be appropriate. It would rank up the damage form its bites, add some HP and natural armor (although canceled by the size change). Not sure about buffing up the (constitution-based) DC on poison. Feels already high enough for me.

Also, Cerberus seems to apply only 1x his strength bonus on bite attack ,rather than 1½x. Understandable for a creature having 3 head for a same size body, and yet.... This might deserve a change.

At last, he is vulnerable to invisible or DR carrying enemies (despite see in darkness, scent, and blindfight)
Maybe allow his bite to bypass some types of DR, or amping up the damage should suffice

A ranged invisible rogue could very well kill him in a single turn with a well placed full-attack with sneak.
He might be worth considering giving him blindsense, and improved or greater blind-fight.

Also, considering he is supposed to be preventing the spirits of the dead from escaping the deeper layers of Hell, is should be fitting that Cerberus have a "ghost-touch" bite. Plus, adding either some Charisma damage/drain to his attacks (his teeth are soul-rending, literally) or giving him the ability to pin down any enemy trying to pass by him (A grab ability on his bite, that works on incorporeal creatures AND bypass any freedom of movement effects) would be both fitting and scary.

Evidently, there were other environmental challenges exposed in this thread that I did not used, and were good ideas.

Ummmmm... Just thought I'd point out that Cerberus has ajob to do. He is not that bothered about letting people In, it is OUT that is a big no no. And so, if you actually KILL him... The endless masses of Hellbound dead will be able to return to the world............

Ha, haven't though about that approach. It does actually makes a lot more sense.

Initially, the excuse I gave the PC for not killing him is that it would enrage Barbatos, the Lord of the first Layer.
And powerful as they are, they can't face a demi-god level being. Yet.

Had I have though of what you just said, I would have preferred it entirely.

Hey , all !

Fight was played yesterday.

So, I did put Cerberus in a 60-ft high, ~80ft wide quasi-squared cavern. On the far wall from the entrance stood the 50ft-high, Duper-Reinforced iron Gate of Hell, which was flanked by two ceiling-high walls of Hellfire. The massive heat deployed by the flames was responsible for, first, environmental fire damage in the cavern, plus also a powerful and constant wind blowing away from that wall.

I did Add an Elysian Titan to be rescued prior, as to provide an accessible mean to the players to bash the door in. (although, in the end, they could very well have managed to break open the 500 hp, 50 hardness magic-impervious Gate by themselves too).

Concerning the miss chance from heat distortion : I decided against hit, since in the end the only player affected in any way by the wind was the archer, (with an added -4 malus to hit to his arrows) and thus giving him (and him only, since he is pretty much the only ranged character) an added environmental penalty felt unfair.

About the Shenanigans about opening the door with some set of skills, although a great idea, felt was inappropriate for the group. The previous skill-monkey just switched to a brand new character, and after the year long campaign we're been having where barely participated in any fights (with reason), i felt a more combat-oriented encounter was more suited for the group.

So...

well, Zhangar was right with his first intuition that Cerberus was "unsuited" as CR 23 creature. Just to put this in perspective, Here's a rough presentation of the group :
All players characters are a different combination of character levels and mythic ranks, which totals 18 (the most "mythic" character having 6 MR), which are :

A slayer, focusing on archery;
A paladin, with a Tanking-DPS role;
A Transmuter Wizard (siegemage archetype), made just for funzies ;
An arcanist, focusing on enhancing himself through golem armor and other constructs,
A lvl 12 cleric follower (yeah, I know, Leadership is OP);
Another story-line added Djinn "follower", played by the wizard, that accounts about to a CR 15-17 creature, and accounting for the role of the fighter.

So this group walked into the cavern, knowing they were going against a big Dog, and will have to face both petrification and poison attacks. They also add the objective of NOT killing the thing.

On the first round, Cerberus' Howl panicked both the cleric follower and the Arcanist for the whole duration of the fight. the others made it through.
Due to different combinations of Freedom of movement, planar adaption and life bubble spells, All character were unaffected by the environmental effect of the windstorm, except for the Slayer archer.

Leaping into the fight, Only the Djinn was petrified. The Slayer got lucky in the 3 important rounds of combat by averting his gaze, The wizard immuned himself against petrification (through Iron body), and the Paladin just needed to not roll a natural 1 on every round (he's that much of a badass, having different mythic and non-mythic abilities and buffs allowing to stack over +34 on fortitude saves).

With the help of cleverly placed wall of force and some positioning, the slayer found a niche were to fire his bow with a -4 to his attacks, combined with a 20% miss from averting his gaze. Although that was a great improvement from "ranged weapon attacks impossible due to windstorm", he did very little of the whole figth DPS.

The bulk of the damage came from the two other still-standing characters : The Paladin and the wizard.
First, a smite from the paladin combined with a critical hit from the Siege mage and his Cannon took 430 hit points out of the beast.

Then, after realizing how much the beast was hurt, all they had to do was hit it little by little with damage that would not bypass its regeneration (good-aligned weapon) in order to defeat - but not kill - the beast.

Annnd that's were it got ridiculous. The only character capable of doing so was the wizard (the Pal and slayer had holy weapons), with natural attacks gained by Form of the dragon transmutation. Altough it DID work, and took a few rounds of effort, it had this unnerving sense of disappointment where the challenge was to BE CAREFUL NOT TO HIT FREAKING CERBERUS TOO HARD.

Cerberus, with his 40 AC and NO other defensive abilities, isn't worth a melee combat-oriented CR 23 creature. (hell , a CR 20 Pitfiend using his natural abilities, rank up to 42 CA, and is supposed to be a melee/caster hybrid)

Secondly, although it felt its +42 bonus to attack was at the right level, the damage was just not cutting it. three times 4d10+13 might seems like a lot to start with, but the characters were too armored for power attack to be worth it, and only 1 or 2 bites hit each round. Meaning around 50-70 damage, NOT accounting for damage reduction (such and stoneskin or Iron Body). As far as I know, Cerberus bite does not count as adamantine.

So that's pretty much it.

I knew to expect that a EL 18 party could pass a over-estimated "CR 23" Cerberus, but I expected it to be harder.

After downing the beast, the party rallied the fleeing characters and the petrified ones, and went through the gate.

The END.

Random thoughts and ideas

[...]

Maybe there is a howling wind rushing from the gate which blows any missile weapons fired towards it auto miss (as if effected by Fickle Winds) so any PCs using ranged weaponry must be upwind between the Gate and Cerberus (cone effect from gate out to ... 120 ft). And perhaps it must be resisted like Wind Force: Windstorm (helpfully tending to blow PCs away from the Gate and towards Cerberus). Clever PC's may use Control Winds or similar to alter/negate this effect of the Gate. Maybe this wind effectively halves the range of Cerberus' breath weapon when he spits towards the gate but doubles his range when he spits away from the gate.

Thanks a ton, Kayerloth ! those a great ideas, and i particularly love that one.

Also, thanks everyone else for participating here.

I'll build the encounter in the following days, and it will probably be played within 2 weeks.

For those interested, I'll come back and post the results of that part of the quest, so you might want to check back on the thread in a couple weeks :)

Cerberus is kind of underpowered for a CR 23 - it's got raw numbers but is sorely lacking in CR appropriate abilities.

That being said...

Cerberus's gaze attack has no range limit. While possibly an omission, I'd roll with it's freaking Cerberus, the range on the attack is line of sight..

I'd also tweak the poison so that every head can do it, not just the center head, with each head having its own cooldown timer. And remove any range limit for the breath weapon, because it's frikkin Cerberus.

And you might want to look at the breath weapon and multi-headed rules for the gorynych for inspiration.

I have to agree with that.

I think the poison is already terrifyingly strong. Either The PC will be immune (via delay poison), or if not, anyone receiving about 2 hits from it will be insta-killed.
I kinda prefer to leave it as it is, so as to scare off anyone hit to maybe back off (and leave them more vulnerable to other lesser devils), and make them think of their impending doom for whenever the second effect of the poison will kick in (1 minute).

About the miss chance for distance and heat distortion, i might very well use it. I'll have to tweak the distances to be fitting for the encounter, but that might work ! I'll have ot take into account that the Archer probably ignores anything like partial concealment (20%), and i see no reason for the miss to ever go higher than 50% (which is equivalent to attacking in the direction of the monster, without seeing it at all).

thanks for the input so far :)

Risharc Moonblood wrote:

I was thinking plateau-like spires where he could jump on them and attack from there.

The good news is he could easily jump 60' with an average roll. The bad news is he won't go more than 60' away from his gate unless the GM takes liberties with the word "willingly".

Besides, fliers could easily be hundreds of feet high and rain down death and destruction on poor old ground-bound Cerberus and never take a scratch from him.

For the "willingly" moving away from 60ft, I really think of preventing Cer. from moving further, no matter the situation. After all, if his job is to guard the Gate, it would defeat his purpose if he could be lured a bit further away, in a way that would alloy another creature near the gate before Cerberus could run back and attack in a single round.

I also had in mind some kind of restricted area in the shape of a plateau at the top of a spire, or a 120ft wide section of rock at the middle of a very large chasm, which can be crossed by a few very narrow bridges.

After the beginning of the fight, a multitude of lesser devils could swarm any PC staying isolated to hit Cerberus from afar (whether from above, or far off horizontally), yet refuse to approach anywhere near Cerberus himself. Although, as cool as that sounds, that doesn't address the fact that even if I plan the encounter that way, Cerberus could very well not survive the first round ,rendering all that environmental flavor useless...

Risharc Moonblood wrote:

All valid points, to be sure. Hmm...I'll answer your question with a question then: how would Cerberus be able to use the environment to his advantage?

Cerberus has no advantage. He's a land-bound creature with limited capability to operate at any decent range (aside from his howl).

He is meant to be fought in a cavern where these are not disadvantages. Fighting him in an open plain where his gate can be seen from far away means he's fodder for a mid-level wizard (probably panicked for a few rounds then comes back, airborne, and destroys the puppy from above).

Putting him in a cavern (literally or figuratively using prismatic walls or other battlefield control magic) is about the only simple way to give him an environmental advantage that might let him live past the second round.

Hahaha, that puppy thing made me laugh :) !

but it does point out one of the sad truth in pathfinder : If there is an easy way to beat a monster, The player will use it without remorse, even if that goes against the spirit of the encounter (can't really blame them for that)

The Obscuring flame Starting AFTER the start of the first round is an option.

Stupid as it sounds, I never though of putting him in a cavern. That might be another way to go about it. Hell being "Divinely Morphic", I could find some way to justify the cavern to be "unalterable", were the players to try to re-mold the environment to their advantage.

I've also though of making the only way to pass though the Gate Cerberus is protecting to be brute force (...ridiculous level of brute force)
Which implies having to close in melee reach of the Gate to blast it. I though of adding a prisoner NPC (like an Elysian Titan) as a short side quest, which would be perfect for the battering-ram Job. The PC would then have no choice to engage in melee with Big C. in order to hold him off, during the few rounds the titan would need to bash open the gate. (as a 1v1 Titan vs Cerberus could very well go into Cerberus favor), And I can divide Cerberus Attacks between the Titan and the PCs.

Lastly, I need just a reason for NOT killing Cerberus Prior to bashing the Gate (which , we can't deny, would be the best way to go about it)

I've though maybe The act of outright Killing the Beast would enrage a Lord of Hell beyond measure, and convince the players that this isn't a wise thing to do, although just Holding off Cerberus (even putting him below 0 Hp and keeping it there) and forcing through the Gate would be a viable option.

Why not give Cerberus an ability that obscures his own body, making him more difficult to hit with ranged attacks? Or something that makes him resistant to ranged attacks? Just a couple of ideas: you don't necessarily need to change the environment.

I Kind of have a bad habit of always trying to compensate monster's weaknesses by giving them additional powers, despite the fact that I think that A challenging environment provides a more interesting encounter than a "buffed" monster.

Plus, I think the players might take it a bit personal if I protect Big C. specifically against ranged attacks.

Hi ! not sure if the advice forum is the appropriate place to ask for help DM'ing an adventure, but here it is :

Soon, I'm going to bring my players in an adventure through Hell in order to retrieve one of their captured companions.

Obvioulsly, it is played at high level (in the range of 18-20)

At some point, I want to have the party Fight Cerberus (as shown here). Which will guard a particular Portal leading to another destination in Hell.

however, In his description, Cerberus " never willingly moves more than 60 feet from the Gates[...] " Which I find is appropritate, And want to keep.
However, I'm having trouble imagining what kind of environnement to place around him that would prevent the group from simply hitting him from a safe distance until the beast in slain, then continue on their way. (the party, having a "full-archer", is fully capable of doing this)

I've thought that the plains around him could be heavyly covered in obcuring flames, but that dosen't prevent the players from flying above. If I obscure the Skies too, then that goes against my view of the encounter, where the Gate Cerberus is guarding is visible from far away.

I don't want either to force or imprison the players within 60 feet of Cerberus, as I want to leave them a way of escape if the fight goes badly.

Giving Big C. a fly speed dosen't adress the problem either.

I guess I could make it so the Gate he is protecting is un-passable were Cerberus to be slain, but I'm not sure that's the best approach.

Any ideas ?

Thanks :)

(edit: typos)

@ Bill Dunn

you bring an interresting point, from a playstyle perpective, that could acutally work.

I was stuck on the acrobatics manoeuver, because that was the only thing I could think of (and find) in the rules for moving through opponents squares. It just happens that Acrobatics is primarily used to avoid AoO. The Dc is just higher to move through an opponent.

Indeed, the situation where the good guy is hiding in an angry crowd (angry about this very guy) yet still escape, is quite iconic. I'm thinking of Bilbo against the swarm of goblins when the dwarf get captured, kindof thing.

Provided the Slayer (in this situation) can create either a distraction, concealement (smoke pellet, invisibility, fog) or has Hide in plain sight, I would allow him to hide in the crowd and crawl slowly outside it, making stealth check (with appropriate bonus, such from invis) to not get spotted in his way there.

I very much like this approcah, than kyou for the idea. It will also prove much more fun and easy to apply than previous mechanics discussed in the post, that i would fall upon only if surrounded character cannot hide (because he is actively being watched, and has none of the tools enumerated above)

Hmmmm, seems to me that either:

1. They DO threaten and must be avoided because invisibility only denies the AoO without actually making them stop threatening (strict RAW reading), so every orc adds +2.

or

2. They do NOT threaten and need not be avoided because inability to make an AoO implies that they don't threaten (looser interpretation), so none of the orcs add +2.

But saying that some orcs don't threaten (no +2) and some orcs do threaten (apply +2) seems self-contradicting.

Doing it your way would have meant a DC of 27: 14 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2. A 20% chance of success.

Incidentally, why didn't "mid-level" characters just fly away? Sure, they're all martials, but nobody invested any air superiority?

You are right, and I prefer interpretation #2. The whole thing is because the player is using acrobatics because that's the mechanic that allows you to move through enemy square. We did not care for AoO, although acrobatics does include both avoiding AoO and moving through enemies space in a single skill (and roll)

For the fly part, that particular character dosen't, no. I said mid-level, by the party is actuall Level 7 / MR 1. (it's really impressive how the first mythic level can transform the power level of the group a whole 1 or 2 levels higher)

for the contradiction, i'm using as comparison a situation where there would be 2 rows of orcs, with a free straight line in between.

O O O O O O
P . . . . . . S
O O O O O O

P being invisible, he could run all the way to S without any AoO nor acrobatics checks, even were the orc aware of his presence. (altought they could still hack blindly at the square on their side and hope to hit something)
So thaT's why I only consider the orcs he is trying to pass trough as being threathening (opposing the task)

Okay. So, in short, I'm thiking of resolving it this way in the future :

Given the same situation (invisible, surrounded), you can choose ot make an attemp at acrobatics. The DC is CMD (without dex, although it dosen't make a difference for orcs), +5 for moving throughs squares, +2 for ennemies after the first.

you must go through the whole crowd in one go (or nearest empty space)
you get a +2 on the acrobatics roll for being invisible ( on top of the Dex-less CMD).
If your speed does not allow you to reach an empty space by the end of your movement (considering you try at half-speed to avoid the -10 penalty), you must try the roll at full speed (with -10) in order to be able to reach an empty space. If still no space is within that distance, you cannot escape. You must try your luck at the overrun combat manoeuver, wich allows you to move double you speed (as part of a charge), or fight.

If your roll fail, you do not move from your spot, but do not reveal your presence. You simply do not manage to find an opening to squeeze through, and fail your attempt.

Orc can still try to detect you with perception or touch attacks.

finaly, if you happen to Not be invisible, the DC is the same for running through the same number of orcs, but you will provoke a crazy number of AoO form adjacent orc (subject ot DM discretion, was discussed in posts above because of soft cover).
you can still try to avoid all AoO by raising the dc accordinly, but it gets so imppossibly difficult that I would allow to just ignore the orcs adjacent to your path and focus in running through the orcs in your way.

There's a slippery slope here.

Arguably, being changed from a form that can wield weapons, handle scrolls, potion bottles etc into a form that can't is going to be fatal. But you don't get the bonus to the save for that. The examples listed refer to being transformed into a form that can't live in the environment it is in. A squirrel can live mid-air.

Frankly if I had a fighter halfway up climbing a rope then turned into a turtle, I'd rule that the environment isn't inherently hostile to the turtle. No save bonus.

It's sort of the same as being turned into a turtle with a pathetic move speed while surrounded by predators. Yes, you're going to die. Yes, the transformation pretty much seals that deal. But you could live.

To answer your question, I think the save bonus only applies to the Fort save. If you actually change forms, you change forms. That may or may not be death-causing (because you can't breathe, for instance). The Will save is a secondary thing, and your form has already changed. Again, losing your "self" is going to get you killed. No bonus for you.

Addendum: the literally-is-a-squirrel-in-mind-and-body guy with fly doesn't die because of his new form isn't compatible with flying. If he dies, it's because he failed to think "down", which would be natural for any animal. FLYING, hard. LANDING... not so much.

Thanks a lot for the answer, it really covers up the whole discussion.

plus, reading baleful polymorph :

As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD. If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.

One MIGHT argue that the phrasing suggest that the +4 bonus does refer only to the Fort save, and then the will save is discussed later on. I kinda stand behind that interpretation, where the part about the form being fatal applies ony on the fort save.

Thanks a lot.

I think i will show this to my players now, so that they can understand why I choose to (in the end) make the player fail its will save (the +4 was actually making the difference between fail and success).

First, they cannot end their turn in an orc's space so they have to move through about 5 spaces, right? You allowed them to end in an occupied space but technically that is not allowed by RAW.

The diagram would look like this:

O O O o o o o
O P O O O O O S
O O O o o o o

Orc CMD is 14. + 5 for moving through an enemy's space. +2 for each additional enemy avoided in 1 round. Since you'll be moving out of a threatened square of EVERY orc in my diagram, you have to avoid them all, every one of them, not just the ones you move through.

I agree with some part.

The diagram is okay.

Since, being invisible, you can just run into enemy-threatened squares without AoO nor any acrobatics checks, I though it was fair ot say that the only Orcs contributing to the DC were the ones you have ot pass through.

If the same situation happens without invis (god, i hope it dosen't come to that), it might be diffent.

So the last part of your post appears fine to me, with a dc in the range of 20-30.
And the slayer DID have a speed of 60 ft at the time, but I forgot about it.

As a side note, the slayer a an acrobatics skill in the range of +10, by that'S from memory.

I would not have broken invisibility for the acrobatics,

[...]
Maybe a 15 perception to figure which square the character stopped in? Failure in the acrobatics doesn't mean you bumped into the character, merely that you had to stop tumbling.

All in all, I think you handled it well. And if the players aren't unhappy, then all is well in the game.

I did not break the invis for bumping into an orc, in that case. But I did allow the orc to be made aware "something" just try to move past him, and know wich hex the character was in. As you said, i'm thinking of removing that part.

finaly , no the players aren't very happy with the way the whole thing was handled. I had to compromise between slowing the game to a crawl to discuss about the ruling, and finding a solution fast enough so that we can keep going (but where the players might disagreee with, because we did not went through the discussion long enough)

Anyway, they are happy with the outcome now, but are still arguing at the very moment with the way it was handled. Wich is why I can now take the week to think about it and ocme up with fair ruling for the next time this situation occurs.

Sad part is, a squirrel would probably be one of the absolute best non avian forms to fall several hundred feet as. It is quite likely the squirrel would survive completely unscathed.

Ah ! True that. This would have made a fair point, and could have saved the player's life, would it have come to that.

The question about the +4 to (either) saves still remains.

--> Sadiven

Yeah, sorry. I did not want the discussion to run to "wait, if he is so far up, how the hell was he in range of baleful polymorph?!" from the start, hnece the confusion.

I remember reading somewhere that you needed to train a mount (sing one of its limited tricks known) in order to get it to benefit from the air walk spell. I don't see why fly would be any different.

A horse may be able to fly or air walk with magic, but it is not it has no instinctual inclination to even attempt it; thus it must be trained first.

Does anyone recall the source?

I remember that too, but can't find it.

Either way, point is that a normal squirrel couldn't fly (but might not fall immediatly), and an arcanist-intelligent squirrel can use the spell normally for the remaining duration.

Well, was the fall definitely something that would be fatal, or merely something that would have caused damage from the fall?

The arcanist was ~600 hundred feet up.

So even were the 1d6 orund of feather fall included in fly were to kick in, the remaining fall would still definitly be fatal.

(altough one could argue that very small thing can fall any height without any damage because of square-cube law (mass / air resistance), like a wingless bug falling any height harmlessly, but pathfinder dosen't cover that, and I don't want to either. )

By reading this specific part,

If you succeed, the highest-level effect on the target transfers to you, ending the effect for the target and continuing it on you with the remaining duration as if you were the original target.

We (my group) understood and agreed that you are not allowed a new save against the effect. You suffer the whole consequences of the effect currently affecting the target (for the remaining duration).

so option 3) was more, like, to complete the set of posibilities, but I doubt it is the answer.

My dilema is really between 1 and 2.

Yeah, my biggest issue is about the slayer too.

I did not roll for perception, because the orcs were aware of the presence of the characters ( they knew exactly where they were before they turned invisible, and were already surrounded).

They did not care about AOO either (neither as a DM, did I). Their sole purpose was to stop the players from escaping (or else their master would be VERY angry at them)

So essentially, the orcs wanted to do whatever they could to prevent the invisible slayer of running past them. Even if they couldn't see him, they acted as though he was still there (which they were right about).

Thinking about your answer, maybe I shouldn't have ruled that failing the acrobatics roll meant revealing your position. The orcs would have needed to find the invisible character (there is already rules in place for that that i'm fine with), and then grab him.

So, next time, I might rule that (giving the exact same situation)

You start with the total real DC to you acrobatics, which is CMD + 5 +2 per enemy after the first.
you either suceed at escaping, or cannot find a way out through 5 rows of orc in one go this time. This would eliminate the "ending your movement in an opponent square problem".
The intent roll is not of avoiding the AOO while doing so (altought, normally, it is), but to be able to pass through enemy squares.

If you fail, you do not move from your square, you can try again, but you do not reveal your location.

Meanwhile, the orcs will freneticly try to find your location on their round. (either by perception, or rules given by core book : Using a standard action to try a touch attack (with 50% ocnceal) againt 2 squares within your reach to try to figure out the location of something invisible). Can remember where i've seen this one, but pretty sure it goes like that.

What do you think ?

I partially agree with that.

True, fly spell states that :

Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking

But I would still think that an animal intelligence creature would not understand what it is doing, and at best would flail uncontrollably in the air (unless trained specificly for flying (such as a trained horse), but that is getting beside the point)

However, since the fly spell allows you to descend at a maximum speed of 60 ft (AND has a "feather fall" safe guard in case it is dispelled), I agree that it would not be instanly dangerous.

The 1 intel squirrel woudl still panic, but not freefall. But flail around until the spell ends (then fall slowly).