Hey there Paizo people.
I'm a huge fan of the Golarion setting. And there's one particular idea that pops up on the boards every once in a while that I've always loved. So I'm interested in running a campaign in using this concept. As you can probably guess from the title, this would be the Golarion Apocalypse concept. For anyone who's not familiar with the idea, it's basically a 'what if' scenario where a former group of adventurers (deceased now), messed up bad at the end of an AP, leading to the villain winning. Of course, the idea had to be taken as far as possible. So every AP happened simultaneously and every villain has won. At the same time.
Needless to say, the world is rather screwed right now. What better time for top notch heroes to rise up and try to put things right? Right now this is just an interest check, and it will be a while before it becomes an actual recruitment, but I'm curious to see who would be interested in giving this game a shot. If I get some interest, I have some setting details worked out that I can post in a bit to fill out how every villain winning at once has messed up the world.
That would be interesting.
Very interesting.
That... actually sounds really cool. So it would like if the heroes of every AP failed in their quests? So, the Runelords return, the Whispering Way triumphs, the Crimson Throne's is cursed, etc?
...count me intrigued.
Very interesting. I assume it would be ~15th level, the levels where most AP's end?
Oh, man. That would be amazing.
I'm playing around with starting level. I'm thinking that it would start at a lower levels with characters that grow into being the legendary heroes that can save the world.
You know I'm interested, man. Count me in and intrigued to hear more about what's going on.
I would say it would be interesting to say the least. It would be easy to start with lowbie characters as most Evil villains have invested in Vile Leadership and the like so there should be plenty of lowbie mooks out there in need of a good thrashing.
I'd be interested in playing a drow if this comes to pass--assuming Second Darkness is going to be canon here. :)
Interest, is had this day.
I actually want to try out a kobold Chosen One Paladin, perhaps with a cassinian familiar who is the spirit of one of the adventures who failed. So he's come back to try and find a worthy hero to finish what he started.
I like this idea. However, if you're using every AP, does that mean mythic rules would be in effect due to Wrath of the Righteous?
Second Darkness is indeed canon. Every AP up to Wrath of the Righteous is. The ones after that are not due to a mixture of me not having access to every AP and some over writing the ends of others (Giantslayer is overwritten by Runelords and Iron Gods is overwritten by Wrath).
That does mean that I intend to use mythic rules. That being said, I have a list of mythic nerfs to try to rein in the absurd power levels that mythic can reach.
:D
Have you given some thought as to what classes will be allowed? I'm considering building a drow spiritualist emerging from the aftermath of the asteroid in Second Darkness.
I really like the idea of a subplot of all the various Evil Gods realizing that the tide is turning, and the tidal wave of their myriad plans coming into play too, as they all individually realize they can capitalize on the chaos.
Although Asmodeous is probably furious with said chaos.
Very interested. Especially as I've run CotCT and would love to see how the major villain behind the curtain would emerge.
My standard for classes is anything Paizo, as long as your backstory justifies it and it makes sense for the setting. Third party will be allowed or denied on a case by case basis, though I generally don't try to have too much third party.
Dotting for interest. I have a FEW ideas, at least, for how I might go about things... XD
As you already know, I am very interested.
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That's sorta what I'm shooting for with my kobold paladin. He just starts off a simple miner and follows a shiny ioun wyrd, and ends up becoming a champion of Apsu.
As they say, history is made by the people who stumble into it blindly.
...I think.
The classic 'ordinary person becomes a hero' kind of character is of course fine, but I don't want to restrict character concepts. This is a world were a lot of chaos has gone down and the world is a very screwed up place. There's a lot of potential for a hero to come from anywhere from a noble household to the city slums. And from a lot of outright weird places.
Sounds neat.
Wow this sounds like a flawlessly amazing idea. Outstanding Concept~
So this would be a high level game?
I'm thinking starting low (possibly 1st) but definitely running very high, most likely all the way to 20th level.
May I ask what sort of mythic houserules / nerfs you might have in mind? I too, generally get slightly concerned at the unrestricted power Mythic adds to a game, and would be most interested in how you attempt to tackle this.
Sure. It's the same list that I used on a mythic Reign of Winter recruitment a while ago (which was in turn borrowed from my awesome Wrath of the Righteous GM). It's a bit lengthy, but mythic requires quite a bit of balancing to keep it from reaching total absurdity by the time it hit higher tiers.
• You only get +1 to stat bonuses as part of advancing in mythic tiers, not +2.
• You cannot get permanent bonuses to your stats through wishes in this campaign.
• The amazing initiative basic mythic ability is replaced with a bonus to initiative checks equal to one-half of your mythic tier. In addition, as a free action when rolling initiative you may expend one use of mythic power to add your surge die to your initiative roll.
• The agile monster template, when applied to PC companions and summons, no longer gives the dual initiative ability. Instead, it gives haste.
• The following abilities: archmage arcana, champion’s strike, guardian’s call, divine surge, marshal’s order, and trickster attack abilities are no longer usable as swift actions. Instead, they are standard actions when sued at the cost of 1 mythic power, move actions at the cost of 2 mythic power, and swift actions at the cost of 3 mythic power.
• You cannot, for any reason, gain more than one additional attack at their highest attack bonus no matter how many such abilities are in effect. (Example: haste, champion’s strike abilities, etc.)
• If you enter the space of a mythic creature with the Titan’s Bane ability, it is considered flat-footed only against the first attack you make against it.
• Player characters (and their allies) can use only one ability that requires the expenditure of mythic power per round. This may be a mythic feat, mythic spell, mythic path ability, a power used by a legendary item, or anything else; if it involves expending mythic power, a character can use only one per round. Characters can use abilities that require spending more than one use of mythic power. Legendary power is considered separate from mythic power.
• You are likewise limited to the use of only one ability that requires the expenditure of legendary power per round.
• Mythic surges may be spent after a d20 has been rolled, but not after the result of the roll has been revealed.
• Mythic power is regained at a rate of 1 use per day. It is refilled to full after completing a mythic trial. This rate of mythic power regeneration cannot be changed in any way through abilities or spells. The GM may allow the heroes to regenerate additional uses of mythic power as a reward for epic feats or good roleplay.
• The foe-biting legendary item ability has been banned. It is replaced with the ability to expend one use of the item’s legendary power after striking an opponent with the weapon to add the bane property against that specific creature (regardless of its type and subtype) for 1 minute. If the item is already a bane weapon against that creature’s type (and subtype, if applicable), using the foe-biting property increases the effect of bane to a +3 enhancement bonus and +3d6 damage, or to +4 and +4d6 if the wielder is a mythic character and expends one use of mythic power as a swift action when expending the item’s legendary power to increase its bane effect.
• The Mythic Power Attack feat is now identical to the Mythic Deadly Aim feat, except it applies to melee damage rolls, not ranged.
• Mythic Vital Strike is banned.
• Instead of granting a flat +20 bonus on the relevant ability check or related skill check, the universal path abilities Display of Strength/Dexterity/Constitution/Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma grant a bonus equal to three times your mythic tier.
• Using the Recuperation mythic ability costs one-half of each character’s remaining daily uses of mythic power (minimum 1).
• You need to spend 2 uses of mythic power to use the unstoppable mythic ability to remove a debuff caused by a mythic effect, not 1.
• Any ability that allows you to ignore immunity or resistance allows you to ignore up to 5 points of resistance or immunity, plus 5 points per 2 mythic ranks or tiers you possess.
• Any ability that allows you to ignore or bypass damage reduction instead allows you to ignore 5 points of damage reduction, plus 1 point of damage reduction per mythic rank or tier you possess. This applies to mythic abilities like the fleet charge champion path feature as well as non-mythic effects like a paladin’s smite evil.
• When a critical hit is confirmed against a mythic creature with damage reduction and the attack does not ignore damage reduction, the creature has a percentage chance equal to twice its damage reduction to negate the critical hit and treat the hit as a normal hit. If the creature also has the fortification universal monster ability or a similar ability to negate critical hits, add these two percentage chances together and make a single roll.
• An effect that allows you to ignore spell resistance (when it would normally apply) allows you add your mythic tier on caster level checks to ignore spell resistance. You apply an additional +2 circumstance bonus if the target is a non-mythic creature or if you are casting a mythic spell; these circumstance bonuses stack.
• Harmful conditions that occur even on a successful save are halved in duration (minimum 0 rounds) if the mythic rank or tier of an affected creature equals or exceeds that of the creature that created the effect. They are also halved (minimum 0 rounds) for a non-mythic creature whose CR equals or exceeds the caster level (or Hit Dice, for supernatural effects) of the creature that created the effect. This does not apply to effects with an instantaneous or permanent duration.
• Wild Arcana, Inspired Spell, Arcane Surge, and Recalled Blessing can only be used on spells with a casting time of 1 standard action or less. Using these abilities requires expending one use of mythic power, plus one additional use for every 2 levels of the spell.
• For Arcane Surge and Recalled Blessing, you may expend an additional 2 uses of mythic power to cast a spell as a swift action.
• Mythic enemies may expend mythic surges as a swift action to add a bonus to its AC equal to the result of its surge die. If the enemy has DR or hardness, the surge die is also added to DR or hardness. If the enemy has energy resistance, it adds twice the result of its surge die to each type of energy resistance it possesses. This bonus lasts until the beginning of the enemy’s next turn; if it expends two uses of mythic power, it lasts for a number of rounds equal to one- half its mythic rank or tier (minimum 1 round).
• When the actions taken by an enemy during its turn would reduce it below 0 hit points, it can expend one or more uses of mythic power to survive with 10% of its current hit points (before that enemy began its turn) for each use of mythic power you spend. All damage dealt as part of a full attack action is considered a single effect for this purpose.
You cannot, for any reason, gain more than one additional attack at their highest attack bonus no matter how many such abilities are in effect. (Example: haste, champion’s strike abilities, etc.)
This basically kills archery, unless Rapid Shot and Manyshot are excluded from this for some reason.
Mythic Vital Strike is banned.
I'd suggest running with the common sense interpretation instead. You gain damage bonuses equal to the number of Vital Strike Feats you have.
Mythic Vital Strike isn't much more potent than most pounce options. As an all-or-nothing attack, it has upsides and downsides.
Upsides: It's a full attack at your highest BaB, and DR only applies once. Takes a Standard, so you can use it after moving (inferior to Pounce, especially Pummeling Charge)
Downsides: There is no such thing as partial damage. It can easily be deflected, especially with Mythic in play (off the top of my head, there's Snake Style, any type of Miss Chance, Mirror Images, the Guardian's Sudden Block, Sacrificial Shield, etc.). Less chance of getting a crit, which is a huge factor in DPR calculations.
It pretty much evens out with your standard Greatsword swinger, and is basically incompatible with Archery or TWFing styles.
It helps 3/4 BaB classes like the Monk much more than it does the full BaB fighters.
Other than that, most everything looks solid.
Also, one logistical problem I see with this is that a lot of the AP groups have kind of mutually exclusive goals.
Are they all warring with each other? Tar-Baphon vs Runelords vs Drow and so on, or has it been centuries and the conflict simmered down to a Cold War and the planet divided into quadrants?
Geb and Ustalav to Tar-Baphon, Varisia to the Runelords, Cheliax under DIRECT control of Asmodeus, etc.
Where do some of the existing governments fall? Is Razmiran still pulling his con?
This basically kills archery, unless Rapid Shot and Manyshot are excluded from this for some reason.
Not really. Your still can get up to 5 attacks a round with Rapid Shot/Distant Barrage/Haste/whatever you have, which is nothing to sneeze at. Manyshot can work with it just fine because it's not giving you an extra attack roll. It's firing two arrows with the same attack, which is different.
I'd suggest running with the common sense interpretation instead. You gain damage bonuses equal to the number of Vital Strike Feats you have.
Mythic Vital Strike is complete BS. It's banned because the sheer damage output outweighs any chance of blocking it or surviving it. If I have to build every single enemy the part encounters to be able to parry the party vital striker, then that rapidly becomes a problem for me to ever create foes. Not to mention trying to make monsters that can survive the sheer damage.
Anything that requires me to specifically build entire combats to work around one ability will likely be banned, because that's just not fun for me to try to GM.
Also, one logistical problem I see with this is that a lot of the AP groups have kind of mutually exclusive goals.
This became a central part of my world building and I do in fact have a solution. It's been a bit since the world got wrecked, so the various factions have gotten settled in by now and they've taken stock of their situations. I'll post some lore details once I have a more in-depth write-up done. Right now it's a bit scattered because it's mostly notes.
I'm tentatively considering some kind of caster. Would there be any point in going for Craft Feats / Mythic Options? I don't particularly mind either way.
Also confirming that Mythic Vital Strike is ridiculous no matter what version you use x_x
EDIT
Also what sort of races are likely to be available? Would it be rather like the standard AP Core race options, our would the world situation be so dire that more unorthodox races come out of the woodwork to lend a hand?
I've only got my phone with me for now, but I'm still working through my character's backstory.
I second the question about races. Also, would you allow traits AP Player's Guides that aren't used in your world? Specifically thinking of the Giant-Blooded trait (I think that's what it's called) that says you have giant blood in you and allows you to halve the penalty for using oversized weapons.
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I haven't had enough exposure to mythic to know how overpowered it is, so I'll trust the nerfing isn't enough to make it an issue. Plus, since this would technically be a custom campaign, I see no reason the GM couldn't just alter encounters to make it a fair challenge anyways.
I probably won't notice because I'll be a kobold paladin, aka, the most optimized build ever, right behind the titan mauler barbarian.
Also, I suspect this means you've got enough interest to run this concept. ;)
Interesting concept... but starting.... level 1? When the scenario is 'multipule AP's happened at the same time and the bad guys one. We now need ultra-level heros to come in and stop them!' that... doesn't make sense.
Dotting, but it we really do start level 1, I'm out...
... Eh, I disagree with that compassion. Evil definitely had a head start sure. But the Knight of Solamnia were still strong. Palanthas was a great city, and the county of Solamina never fell to evil.
And that's just off the top of my head. Its been ages since I've read them... Yeah okay that was just the one country... but Solamina was the biggest country, the forces of Takhisis only managed to defeat the minor counteries, and that's because the higher powers basically opened their doors. Doesn't really compare to what is suggested here.
Also what sort of races are likely to be available? Would it be rather like the standard AP Core race options, our would the world situation be so dire that more unorthodox races come out of the woodwork to lend a hand?
My standard for races is anything Paizo is perfectly fine as long as your backstory justifies it. So it's completely fine if a character from a more uncommon race is a major part of the adventure.
I second the question about races. Also, would you allow traits AP Player's Guides that aren't used in your world? Specifically thinking of the Giant-Blooded trait (I think that's what it's called) that says you have giant blood in you and allows you to halve the penalty for using oversized weapons.
For traits, I'd say that it's fine to take traits from other campaigns as long as the flavor makes sense still. Since people are going to be coming from all over the world (I'll get some more lore up so people know the premise a bit better), there are a number of campaign traits that would make sense. Giant Blooded looks like it would be fine.
Interesting concept... but starting.... level 1? When the scenario is 'multipule AP's happened at the same time and the bad guys one. We now need ultra-level heros to come in and stop them!' that... doesn't make sense.
I think your fundamentally misunderstanding what story idea I have in mind. The world has been pretty dramatically changed by all the villains winning, but that doesn't mean epic all powerful heroes are going to appear from nowhere just because and suddenly launch a crusade to destroy all of them. I actually do have a rough plot laid out to give the campaign some progression beyond 'okay, we killed that AP's villain, who's next on the list'.
... I wasn't thinking of 'Epic all powerful heroes are going to appear from nowhere just because '. I was thinking that as the world has been dramatically changed due to villians winning... even to simply survive you'll likely need to be more than level 1. To even try to challenge them? A level 1 character would just get squished. I mean fine, I understand not being the epic heroes from the start... but to start at level 1? Where a cat can kill you?
Interesting concept... but starting.... level 1? When the scenario is 'multipule AP's happened at the same time and the bad guys one. We now need ultra-level heros to come in and stop them!' that... doesn't make sense.
Dotting, but it we really do start level 1, I'm out...
I disagree. Every great crusade starts with stomping on a few grunts. Besides, if folks like Tar-Baphon did come back, I'd think their first targets would be the high level heroes. That way, you eliminate potential threats and show off your might to the mortals. Then , you leave behind some muscle to keep out interlopers from trying to get the stuff of heroes, and who's going to try?
That just leaves the few brave souls who are willing to step up and fight for good. And don't forget, the good aligned gods would be eager to get things back in balance. I would think that a couple small heroes who challenge insurmountable odds would stand out to folks like Iomedae, Torag, Cayden, Sarenrae, and Shelyn.