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Last night we killed Orcus.
A buddy of ours is moving and he's wanted to get a one-shot on the table for a while now pitting the demon lord against some mythic PCs. Over the last few weeks we've been creating level 20/mythic tier 10 PCs to go head to head with Orcus.
Now our GM gave the room a property that, at a certain point Orcus would become "bloodied" and we would be catapulted onto platforms which began siphoning energy from us. The fight opens, we slowly approach the demon prince and the other PCs unleash some middling damage as far as mythic goes. In the midst of the monk/rogue's 7 attacks Orcus hits his damage threshold, calls out "ENOUGH!" and bam! We're on the pedestals.
First one off is our Archmage arcanist who unleashes a few hundred damage in a couple spells. Next up is the barbarian. The gal running the PC isn't experienced with high level play so she just rages and attacks 5 times scoring 1 crit but maybe missing some bonuses or something because again, a few hundred damage.
Orcus is cheesed off and has gone from fully healed and transforming to mildly damaged again. I'm the last to go from the heroes' side, then Orcus is going to quite literally unleash hell.
Two thousand, six hundred, and seventy two points of damage.
That was the ludicrous number I dumped. In 2 attacks. I stole part of a mythic fighter build that's floated around the boards a couple times: 20 levels of human 2h fighter and 10 mythic tiers in Champion path focused on Vital Strike, Criticals and a x4 crit weapon, the scythe.
When I announced that number everyone in the room stopped. The GM actually looked at me, blinked and mumbled "Wait... what?" I proudly laid out how I'd hit the numbers and my buddy just sat back, staring.
The fight was over. Orcus had been dropped below "negative a lot" per the GM. He was also dimensionally anchored, couldn't regenerate and had no DR for a round. In that next round his corpse was completely and utterly disintegrated by mythic spells and fire even while dispels were being cast to ensure he didn't have a contingency.
Now of course the story of the scenario went on. Rovagug was coming and there was nothing we could do would stop him. Saranre appeared and she sacrificed herself and imploded the entire universe to finally eradicate the Rough Beast once and for all, creating the conditions for a new "big bang" which would re-start everything again and put us as new divine beings at the center of it all.
My takeaway from the experience was this: that was nuts!
It took longer for the prologue and epilogue. Also at that level you better know EXACTLY how you're attacking. The barbarian and the monk/rogue both got thrown for a loop and had to improvise; respectively their turns took nearly 20 minutes each.
Still the damage output was insane. The powers outside the realm of anything I've done before. And I'm a guy that once hosted a "3-day demigod" event in 2e back in the day!
I know some people vibe on mythic and no disrespect at all. For me, that was just too much. 2 attacks, 2,672 damage. I do have to admit though, it was somehow satisfying in the moment when my buddy went into shock so it wasn't a total bust. Thanks again Paizo!
Math pleasee.
Lol!
Yeah 10 mythic tiers on a twentieth level party is ridiculous!
Sounds about right, hopefully you left enough of him there to steal his watch:-D
What stats did you even use for Orcus?
My imagination hurts now...
This gets me excited for when I finally get to play Mythic and build my take on Golarion Thor.
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i'm guessing that they're using the strict RAW reading of the very unfortunately worded mythic vital strike (and devastating strike)- the RAI seems clear that you multiply your Str/enhancement/power attack/etc by the vital strike multiplier (x2 for base, x3 for imp, x4 for greater), but RAW it says to multiply them by the number of damage dice... so a 2d4 scythe that's supposed to hit for 8d4+(bonuses x4) would actually do 8d4+(bonuses x8). With the expanded damage from the two-handed fighter's Str bonus and power attack that can get pretty insane.
that said, 1200 damage per hit still seems out of reach... i'm guessing that his GM let him combine Vital Striking with the 2HF auto-crit ability. i'm pretty sure that's outside of RAW but if he was allowed to do it (with the OP vital strike) that would total 16d4+(bonuses x16) which could definitely get to that level.
The barbarian and the monk/rogue both got thrown for a loop and had to improvise; respectively their turns took nearly 20 minutes each.
That!!! That right there is one of the reasons I have thrown my Mythic Rulebook into an incinerator and never looked back.
Like how nate said in his post, this math is way off. Numbers please.
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The barbarian and the monk/rogue both got thrown for a loop and had to improvise; respectively their turns took nearly 20 minutes each.That!!! That right there is one of the reasons I have thrown my Mythic Rulebook into an incinerator and never looked back.
I've seen low level non-mythic games take easily 5-10 minutes, so a 20th level, mythic 10 game doesn't surprise me in the least to have 20 minute turns. Especially if what they had planned got derailed.
I've seen low level non-mythic games take easily 5-10 minutes, so a 20th level, mythic 10 game doesn't surprise me in the least to have 20 minute turns. Especially if what they had planned got derailed.The barbarian and the monk/rogue both got thrown for a loop and had to improvise; respectively their turns took nearly 20 minutes each.That!!! That right there is one of the reasons I have thrown my Mythic Rulebook into an incinerator and never looked back.
Yeah, lots of time managment at higher level combats involves having your turn planned out during other peoples turn. When the action before yours though substantially changes the landscape you cab get a little bogged down.
Nothing to do with mythic.
I'll also note they were running characters built for this combat, not long running ones where you more intuatuvely know how they tend to run.
The barbarian and the monk/rogue both got thrown for a loop and had to improvise; respectively their turns took nearly 20 minutes each.That!!! That right there is one of the reasons I have thrown my Mythic Rulebook into an incinerator and never looked back.
I'm not opposed to Mythic Rules per say, all I can say is that it is an amplifier, in all senses of the term.
This means that the good (damage, options, utility, etc.) and the bad (takes forever to calculate bonuses/penalties, turns require absolute mastery in order to make them quick enough for standard play) are increased in comparison to a regular game.
Even in high levels, I can assure you that by 12th level, our turns were taking 2-3 times longer than they were when we were a fraction of that level; one attack, one modifier, one spell (and its low-modifier effects), are all very fast to run through. 5 attacks, a whole crapton of modifiers to refactor in, more than 1 spell per round (with multiple effects and separate modifiers), will bog down a game in comparison, no matter if it's Mythic Rules or not.
I'm not saying that Mythic Rules are great, or that they should be used a lot; all I'm saying is that Mythic Rules aren't the (only) reason why endgame play slows down to a crawl in comparison to earlygame that should be lightning-fast.
Orcus is a god. Gods don't have stats in Pathfinder. Going by 3E rules, Orcus' AC should have been 70-80+. Your attack was probably 40-50+? How did anyone in the party actually hit him?
Orcus was not statted as a god in 3.5. See hordes of the abyss. Writers later specified that they were aspect ststs, but nothing said in the book.
He may have also shown up in the dragon demonomicon articles, though I'm not sure.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Well, so much for "Fighters suck at high levels!"
*Some restrictions apply. Requires obstacle to be solvable through combat and for the target to be within reach. Mythic fighters only. Assumes the fighter's caster allies have already removed regeneration, and any other mechanisms which render hit point damage meaningless. Also assumes the fighter's caster allies can immediately disintegrate the body and dispel any magical countermeasures that the fighter can't interact with, including (but not limited to) contingency spells. See store for details.
Well, so much for "Fighters suck at high levels!"
I'm 100% positive that he just screwed the math. :p
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High levels cannot be held liable for side effects resulting from playing a fighter, including, but not limited to, injury, fatal injury, domination, poverty, standing around feeling awkward, and one-track mindsets. If your party is already using slayers, barbarians or paladins, use of fighters is not recommended. Consult your Game Master before playing a fighter. Magic items not included. Copy of "Kirthfinder" sourcebook not included.
Last night we killed Orcus.
Ungh-huh. Not a surprise.
Last month, my Wrath campaign wrapped up, and we one-shotted the BBEG.
To be fair, at the end of the Slumbering Tsar campaign I ran with mostly the same group, Orcus got slaughtered too.
In our case, I used Orcus' stats from Tome of Horrors Complete. Something like a CR35. One round.
Point is, at high levels, mythic or not, it's a game of rocket-tag. He who goes first most often wins. Exactly how it's done often doesn't matter.
I'm in a level 12 / tier 5 game where our mythic vital striking bruiser can pretty reliably drop 500 points of damage in one round. The numbers cited in the original post sound about right to me.
Mythic Vital Strike makes for some completely insane numbers.
As for Orcus, he's stated out for Pathfinder in the Rappan Athak book from Frog God games. That's probably what they used.
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2d4 X 4(Greater vital strike) = 8d4 = BonusX8
Devastating Blow + Weapon Mastery + Myth power for another standard = Devastating blow x 2 @ X5 mod auto confirm
--> BonusX13
Mythic Power attack + Greater Power attack + Power attack = 6 per 3 levels that is doubled before crit mods.
So PA damage is 12 x 6 x 13 = 936 damage in PA per hit.
2672 - (936*2) = 800 left for strength, weapon training, weapon and dice.
Assuming strength is a 14: 14 x 13 x 2 = 364 damage
800 - 364 = 436 damage for dice, weapon, and weapon training
Weapon training is 6 (Dueling gloves) x 13 x 2 = 156 damage
364 - 156 = 208 left for dice and weapon
weapon is 5 x 13 x 2 = 130 damage
208 - 130 = 78 damage
32d4 average is 2.5 x 32 = 80 damage
So yep about 2 points below average.
Well, so much for "Fighters suck at high levels!"I'm 100% positive that he just screwed the math. :p
The maths were posted in the Mythic Vital Strike thread right after the rules were released.
A two-handed fighter can easily do > 1k damage per standard action at 20/10.
Does not even need mythic vital strike: he could just as easily deal two x5 auto-crits from a scythe each turn.
Woa, I was wrong. Holy shit.
That reading of vital strike though. Lmao...
Mythic is just so awesome :P.
Imagine if he had foe-biting...
Edit: Average would have been 2601 per hit... *Shrudder*
And what did we learn today children?
If you are playing mythic, depending on everyone's builds, you might want to consider giving the bosses Final Fantasy levels of HP rather than following the actual rules.
At least if they are demi-gods such as demon lords. I mean...that seems fairly justified.
Anyway, with that, you have to wait until they get crits with their keen scythes until they can 2 shot the boss. Shouldn't be too hard- they can auto confirm, and it is a 10% chance each hit with keen. And as it has been mentioned- it doesn't even need to be vital strike, so getting those in with full attacks (which are easy in mythic) shouldn't be too hard.
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Orcus is a god. Gods don't have stats in Pathfinder. Going by 3E rules, Orcus' AC should have been 70-80+. Your attack was probably 40-50+? How did anyone in the party actually hit him?
Orcus is a demon lord, they're demigods in Pathfinder, CR 26-30. Several have been statted at this point.
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Sorry for taking so long with the math. We're in General Discussion so don't beat me up too bad if I did it wrong.
Str 44 Ftr (2h ftr) 20 Mythic (Champion) 10
Weapon: +1 Axiomatic Holy Growing Phase Locking Thundering Vicious scythe (weapon base damage 2d8)
Ftr Abilities
Overhand Chop: on a single Melee attack Str damage is doubled
Weapon Training(plus Gloves of Dueling): +6 att/damage w/2h weapons
Greater Power Attack: double damage on PA damage w/2h weapons instead of 150%
Devastating Blow: Single attack at -5; if hit then threatens critical; this doesn't trigger weapon special abilities that happen on a crit (no Thundering)
Mythic Abilities
Sudden Strike: spend 1 Mythic power for a Swift action attack
Always a Chance: no auto-miss on a 1
Punishing Blow: victim loses Regeneration and DR for a round
Critical Mastery x2: Auto confirm all crits and damage is maximized on mythic and non-mythic foes
Perfect Strike: spend 1 Mythic power; standard attack dealing double damage; all damage bypasses DR; +1 to Crit multiple if confirmed Critical
Feats: Power Attack/Mythic Power Attack, Wpn Foc/Grtr Wpn Foc/Mythic Wpn Foc, Weapon Spec/Grtr Wpn Spec/Mythic Weapon Spec, Vital Str/Imp VS/Grtr VS/Mythic VS/Mythic Imp VS, Devastating Strike, Demon Hunter (+2 Damage vs Demons)
Buffs running: Smite Evil power granted by paladin; +4 attack/first hit plus 40 to damage; others +20; banner of paladin: +2 attack/damage; Monstrous Physique III so Str up to 50 and Large size; Greater Magic Weapon spell so scythe is +5 attack/damage
So...
Attack #1 - Perfect Mythic Vital Strike Devastating Blow
+56 to hit
52 Weapon Damage, 5 magic weapon bonus, 40 Str, 36 PA, 6 Weapon Training, +9 Weapon Specialization, +6 Devastating Strike, +2 Demon Hunter, +2 paladin's banner, +40 Smite Evil = 198
Multipliers - x2 for Perfect Strike, x4 for Vital Strike, x5 for Crit; total multiplier = x9 because the rule IIRC is First Multiple + Additional Multipliers -1 so x2 + (x4-1) + (x5-1)
198x9 = 1782
Attack #2 - Swift action Mythic Vital Strike Devastating Blow
+61 to hit
52 Weapon Damage, 5 magic weapon bonus, 40 Str, 36 PA, 6 Weapon Training, +9 Weapon Specialization, +6 Devastating Strike, +2 Demon Hunter, +2 paladin's banner, +20 Smite Evil = 178
Multipliers - x4 for Vital Strike, x4 for Crit; total multiplier = x7 because the rule IIRC is First Multiple + Additional Multipliers -1 so x4 + (x4-1)
178x7 = 1246
So actually my damage should've been 3,028, not 2,672.
Again, sorry if I did these calculations wrong. The multiple multiples threw me and I muddled through the best I knew how. My personal feeling still stands though; the damage outputs were so ridiculous that it just didn't feel real.
As for folks asking about Orcus' stats; I never got to see them. I do know though that hitting a 54 AC missed but hitting a 59 hit; also his SR was surpassed by a 56. My personal assessment though is that our GM was either being kind or forgetting a lot of what the demon prince could do.
Well, so much for "Fighters suck at high levels!"*Some restrictions apply. Requires obstacle to be solvable through combat and for the target to be within reach. Mythic fighters only. Assumes the fighter's caster allies have already removed regeneration, and any other mechanisms which render hit point damage meaningless. Also assumes the fighter's caster allies can immediately disintegrate the body and dispel any magical countermeasures that the fighter can't interact with, including (but not limited to) contingency spells. See store for details.
High levels cannot be held liable for side effects resulting from playing a fighter, including, but not limited to, injury, fatal injury, domination, poverty, standing around feeling awkward, and one-track mindsets. If your party is already using slayers, barbarians or paladins, use of fighters is not recommended. Consult your Game Master before playing a fighter. Magic items not included. Copy of "Kirthfinder" sourcebook not included.
Everything about this is perfect.
Yeah, this doesn't surprise me much, given that I was one of the GM's who managed to get through the entirety of Wrath of the Righteous.
I don't like to talk about that experience much anymore. Both because it seriously impaired my fun of Pathfinder for a while and because it seems me being vociferously angry about that seems to have at least one developer be always somewhat snippy when I post something even mildly critical about any AP.
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My personal assessment though is that our GM was either being kind or forgetting a lot of what the demon prince could do.
Ahahaha.
No.
It's just that the published demon lords are sad jokes against a group of lvl 20/mythic rank 10 characters. Except Nocticula. And even she would go "splat" against even one hit of the about 1500 damage your character seems to inflict per hit.
Math pleasee.Having played Wrath of the Righteous to the end... I can believe the OP is getting those numbers. We got pretty close to them ourselves. Mythic is severely breakable especially by those with system mastery.
There are a few really bad eggs in the mythic development, none worse than mythic vital strike.
That said, I note that his numbers also include a 20th level paladin's team smite ability and some combos of various standard action ability which I'm not certain interact... on a character specifically built at 20/10 for this specific challenge... with no associated growing pains... and almost entirely focused towards offense.
So, not sure how big of a problem it is most of the time, especially if, again, you put a damper on the four or five particularly poorly balanced items.
The barbarian and the monk/rogue both got thrown for a loop and had to improvise; respectively their turns took nearly 20 minutes each.That!!! That right there is one of the reasons I have thrown my Mythic Rulebook into an incinerator and never looked back.I'm not opposed to Mythic Rules per say, all I can say is that it is an amplifier, in all senses of the term.
This means that the good (damage, options, utility, etc.) and the bad (takes forever to calculate bonuses/penalties, turns require absolute mastery in order to make them quick enough for standard play) are increased in comparison to a regular game.
Even in high levels, I can assure you that by 12th level, our turns were taking 2-3 times longer than they were when we were a fraction of that level; one attack, one modifier, one spell (and its low-modifier effects), are all very fast to run through. 5 attacks, a whole crapton of modifiers to refactor in, more than 1 spell per round (with multiple effects and separate modifiers), will bog down a game in comparison, no matter if it's Mythic Rules or not.
I'm not saying that Mythic Rules are great, or that they should be used a lot; all I'm saying is that Mythic Rules aren't the (only) reason why endgame play slows down to a crawl in comparison to earlygame that should be lightning-fast.
I understand what your saying, and totally agree, but my hatred of the mythic rules stems from being one of those sorry sons of man who ran Wrath of the Righteous, and in my honest opinion, mythic rules just fail at providing anything, you know, mythic to the table.
Seems like maybe Mythic needs an errata.
The FAQ has been mentioning one coming out for years.
Have I missed it?
I love Mythic. Played responsibly it gives great flavour... it does have some broken things in it though.
I love the idea of being able to spend Mythic surge points in defence to stop the 'one turn kills'.
People go nuts about mythic. It's really silly to me. Legenday Games' Mythic Solutions offers a ton of great ways to deal with mythic gaming.
There are a few really bad eggs in the mythic development, none worse than mythic vital strike.
If he supports a +56 attack bonus and hits on a 59, it seems likely that there are multiple ways to deal the exact same damage with such a powerful build. I don't mean roughly, either, I mean possessing the ability to level the exact same attack force in a single round at someone. From bringing your iterative attacks into a no-penalty status, to swift action move-attacks, there are plenty of options for this same scenario to play out with slightly different names. And this was a crit.
The fact that offense uses multiples, but defense uses subtractive formulas also favors the offense. 5e's bringing back half-damage was an improvement even before you consider that the damage is lower all around.
That said, Paizo has flat out underestimated how powerful many damage dealing abilities can be. I believe I pointed out that a mythic meteor swarm can one-shot a mythic red wyrm dragon when the book came out. The disparity has been evident for sometime.
My personal assessment though is that our GM was either being kind or forgetting a lot of what the demon prince could do.Ahahaha.
No.
It's just that the published demon lords are sad jokes against a group of lvl 20/mythic rank 10 characters. Except Nocticula. And even she would go "splat" against even one hit of the about 1500 damage your character seems to inflict per hit.
What's different about Nocticula?
What's different about Nocticula?My personal assessment though is that our GM was either being kind or forgetting a lot of what the demon prince could do.Ahahaha.
No.
It's just that the published demon lords are sad jokes against a group of lvl 20/mythic rank 10 characters. Except Nocticula. And even she would go "splat" against even one hit of the about 1500 damage your character seems to inflict per hit.
Can use her her impressive SLA selection through disposable chumps.
How is that different from a wizard using astral projection in terms of threat?
A level 20 party Non Mythic can kill Orcus
How is that different from a wizard using astral projection in terms of threat?
Not very, but that's the point. The best high level tactics are being a full caster or failing that being able to at least mimic them.
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I can see it being anti-climatic. Yet Mythic characters should be doing stuff like killing Orcus imo. I still remember a poster here on the boards complaining that a mythic cleric fed a army. I think it was 400+ army. What makes something worthy of being mythical. The guy who can feed a army. Or Joe Average the Cleric who feeds his group. The guy who can feed a army is remembered and becomes a legend even years later. No one cares for joe average.
As for the devs not realizing how lethal mythic could be. Then they must have rushed them out without proper testing imo. Their not even that bad. If it were for the fact that the opposition does not scale well as one acquires Mythic levels. At the very least not without the DM modifying them. Then again most npcs in a AP don't scale well with a minimally optimized party.
Part of my own reaction can also be summed up with one simple fact; before this game session I haven't made it past 6th level in Pathfinder. Every game I've run/played, for whatever reason, has ALWAYS fallen apart between 3rd and 6th level. Real life scheduling conflicts, personality issues amongst players or the clashing of egos; something always gets the better of my games.
As such I've read about "rocket tag" for years but never experienced it. Imagine if I'd gotten the chance to go first?
GM: you see Orcus (gives lengthy exposition)... roll initiatives
Me: 39
GM: Ok Mark, you're up first
Me: Ok, I move to here, make my Will save vs Fear, and attack twice. I hit... (rolls dice) AC 62 and 71 respectively.
GM: Ok, 2 hits. Roll your...
Me: I did 2,672 damage.
GM: Wait... What?
... and either that's the end of the entire game session or the GM fudges a bit. Either way it seems extremely anti-climactic. Now sure, there's ways around that. Spells, contingencies, illusions, and so on but in the end unsatisfying for the GM and for us players.
If using the PF system as the GM you've got to somehow account for the power curve and either somehow de-power the players or scale up the monster in some way that just makes it last longer.
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Nocticula is so sexy that just her speaking can break the will of anybody. Although the high level mythic characters with good will saves can probably resist even the insane saves demanded of them against her sexyness. Immunities against charm or compulsion and the like also don't help against her.