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magnuskn wrote:
Let's just say that I found her to be the most interesting character presented in the entire AP.

Err...does that say more about Nocticula being interesting, or other NPCs being flat?


Best girl? What? No one got married or anything right?


Why would it be a better redemption story than Ragathiel? What is Ragathiel's story anyways? I just know he's the son of one of the archdules of Hell.


Rysky wrote:
MGX wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Oh wow, you're totally right! I totally didn't notice that. Damn...now that's style.
Combat Stilettos.
We have stats fro those in Adventurer's Armory 2 now :3

Wait are you being serious? 0_o


Skip the headaches. Be an oracle of Nocticula and have no alignment restrictions!

Then join the Mendevien crusade!


Has Paizo given specific guidelines of what objective evil is? Is the objective morality system more consequentialist or deontological?


Purple Overkill wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:

If paizo came or with a. Alignment handbook clarification Shen perspective matters we would need a lot less of these threads :p

I mean, in real life perspective clearly matters some. We don't execute the insane who commit crimes because we don't hold them as responsible.

I´d be careful about that.

I guess you´re a young US American an have a certain stance on crime vs. punishment.
I´m an older european with a stance on punishment vs. redemption.

I´ve said it before and another poster threw in buddhist morality: We have a neutral talk on that level, everything is fine. Now Paizo simply doesn´t has the balls to go there.

I don't understand the relevance if talking about punishment vs redemption here?

And what do you say is the difference between Right and Good?


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Daw wrote:

Now, some of your rewards are being turned into slugs and fed upon, or tortured, or shredded to the point you have no identity.

No one says that Pharasma sends you where you will be happy, she sends you where you belong, without any hint of mercy.

That said, even when you go to the upper planes, you're still eventually reforged into an outsider with no prior memories of your old self (if the system works as intended anyway). So really depending on your point of view that's not much of a reward either beyond the centuries/millenia it takes for that to happen involve less torture.

If by less torture you mean zero torture, sure...


If paizo came or with a. Alignment handbook clarification Shen perspective matters we would need a lot less of these threads :p

I mean, in real life perspective clearly matters some. We don't execute the insane who commit crimes because we don't hold them as responsible.


What about the LG paladin who tries to make everyone conform to his code of ethics? Others might mot agree with his code. Is he acting evilly?


That death cult creates undead, and that is 100% always evil acts right? Not too much ambiguity there...


What is the definition of evil really? Can people who are insane truly be evil? They're wrong and need to be stopped ofmcourse, but can we actually apply the word evil to them?


They are straight up genocidal. They just have zero malice.


Wait, I thought objective reality by definition can't be entirely intent-based?


Zelda Marie Lupescu wrote:

They sound like annihilists...

Champions of Corruption wrote:

Annihilists

Nothing matters. Entropy and chaos have created a world where nothing lasts, nothing means anything, and even the greatest works or truths will fall to dust and obscurity in the blink of an eye. You know that those who claim otherwise do themselves and everyone else a disservice, and you cannot abide anyone who perpetuates society’s great lies of love and meaning. Instead, you choose to reveal their willful ignorance by furthering the cause of destruction. The world offends you, and thus you will bring it down.

If you are an annihilist, you:

Have no feelings or scruples, or aspire to have none.
See entropy and death everywhere, and accept (and inflict) them as the true pillars of reality.
Despise anything that aspires to permanence, growth, or meaning.

Code: Everything crumbles. Who are you to argue with that?

These people have lots of scruples and feelings. They just believe the afterlife is a much better mode of existence than life. They're not nihilists. they don't want NOTHING. They just want something different than life on the material plane.


Souls go to the plane they're the most philosophically aligned with correct? Not sure Abaddon is the right one for their philosophy even if the death of mortal life is a shared goal. Daemons hate all mortal life, but really just want to kill so they can get to the mortal soul and eat it. This cult wants everyone to continue existing as Petitioners or other outsiders.

At what point does well-intentioned extremism become unequivocally evil?


Assuming the people involved have a high enough HD, what should the members of this wacko cult detect as?

The members of this cult have come to the conclusion (mostly by having lived through some really bad and violent times) that life, in general, is suffering. Whether there is a greedy and uncaring aristocracy that refuses to help the starving peasants, or malicious raiders who kill and enslave any who can't defend themselves, or scheming devils who attempt to warp and corrupt everything you love into depravity, life is, in their view, defined by suffering. What simple pleasures can be had in life are just temporary reprieves for most before the suffering resumes. The cult believes that just solving the immediate crises plaguing the people isn't enough, as a new generation is born and they will surely suffer as well when a new crisis arrives. No, in order to break the karmic cycle of suffering, to transcend mortal suffering, life must end. The good souls will get their eternal reward in the heavens, free from suffering, and the evil souls that have been malicious causing others to suffer will suffer their just rewards as well in the lower planes. As they see things, in the afterlife, common causes of suffering like,hunger, disease, warring kingdoms, etc are, for the most part, just not a factor. To that end, the cult has decided that the most efficient way to do so is with a special disease they've concocted. Is painless even as it weakens and kills the body. They offer a message of peace and hope to anyone who would listen, and actively oppose any groups or individuals (even in the face of personal peril) that would cause suffering to others, even as they wait for their disease to spread and end life. They do not do this with any expectations of reward or gain, but merely because they believe this is the right thing to do.

The alignment rules state:

Quote:

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

This cult could arguably check off the list for Altruism and Concern for the dignity of sentient beings (although yes, there may be a bit of cognitive dissonance in their beliefs), as they make personal sacrifices to help others. Of course they do not have Respect for Life. Their entire philosophy disrespects Living as a way of life (no pun intended).

This cult does kill, of course, primarily through spreading their disease, but they don't do it out of sport, or do it out of convenience to get something else they want. They do end up hurting people, since killing off members of society deceases society's ability to function, not to mention the mental anguish of people losing loved ones. The cult doesn't quite see it that way of course, or perhaps some members see it like the pain of a needle to inject a necessary medicine. there is pain, but it is for a beneficial situation later. Regarding oppression, not only do they not do they, they actively oppose it.

Their intent is arguably good, but the side effect (everyone being dead) is probably not good. But, they do try to minimize suffering on the way to their desired end. So, how should the objective morality of the universe label these cultists?


Shouldn't the Zealot just be a Soulknife using the dual-wield option and also taking the Gofted Blade archetype?


Do you think Snowball is a corner case?


Why would the WtW take no physical damage from the dagger? In normal form it has no immunity to weapon damage. High DR is a problem but that can be overcome.


Not technically true. A WtW in regular form can take weapon damage normally (albeit it has huge DR). In swarm form a barbarian with a greataxe can't hurt it without special equipment of feats.

What I'm saying is that if a normal snowball I pick up off the round can affect a WtW (assuming I can bypass DR somehow), then, logically, why can't a snowball i conjure up affect the WtW? Regardless of whether I propel or using my arm or via a magical push, the snowball should hit and splatter against the WtW in the same fashion?


Alchemist bombs don't deal B/P/S damage either. They don't add Str to damage. Yet you are certainly throwing it as a weapon. And it even would be very effective against a Worm that Walks.


And under that interpretation, the worm would not be immune to the snowball then?


Is it still a spell? Or does the spell just create a physical object for you to throw?


Second question: is a Worm that Walks immune to the "Snowball" spell? It's a conjuration spell, so you're basically creating a snowball and then throwing it at the worm. WtW are not immune to weapons (unless in swarm form) so the snowball should also work right?


I'm asking if the spell does have components, then will the worm be unable to cast it?

Basically I'm wondering whether a Worm that Walks can just stay in swarm form all the time And be immune to half the PCs (swarms are immune to weapon damage). That'd be a really boring fight for half the party.


If a Worm that Walks has Discorporated into a swarm, can it still cast spells that require any components (assuming it doesn't have still spell, silent spell, Eschew materials, etc)


I'll put it to you this way, in Wrath, mythic itself is 100x more unbalancing than any archetype published by Paizo.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Houserule mythic so it doesn't ruin the campaign. Thousands of damage per round are par for the course for mythic characters.


This archetype is great for a Wrath of the Righteous. Other APs? Not so hot.


Steelfiredragon wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:

Arushulae is from an adventure path.

** spoiler omitted **

my thanks.

still though, that would make her an unique monster and not teh norm. same with F-F-G.
irredeemable is the norm.

now someone put her on the wiki....

or point me the way

Every person is unique. Therefore, by your logic, we should discount every single person's story? You can correctly say that the vast majority of demons are so difficult to redeem that the chances of seeing one in your lifetime is almost zero. You can't correctly say demons are irredeemable period. Because if there is at least one example, your point is refuted.

no its not. Gamelore states they are irredeemable.

to make one cannon ingame would make it an exception to the rule or the rule gets errata and Changed. Then everybody will want a reformed fiend in each AP and home grown ones and then it will be all Drow are supposed to be evil and should be evil arguements when it comes down to a certain non evil drow ranger with two scimitars and a black cat messing it up, now everybody wants one.

as for all people being unique, oh yes we are all different as are each of our characters.

thing is, both dnd and pathfinder have their demons craving destruction and death on massive scales. With no remorse so more or less psychopaths.

Could you see DC redeeming the Joker character?

That's the thing. It is NOT a hard and fast rule. "Always" evil, by RAW, is basically one in millions will be non-evil. The non-evil fiend follows the rule perfectly. The rule just states that 99.999999% of fiends are evil.


I've always played it as the Eidolon gets to keep The stuff it's wearing and carrying. Otherwise it's stupid. Every time you summon it you'd need to spend time putting fear on it. Doesn't work well in he middle of combat.


When does he get Mutagens?


Steelfiredragon wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:

Arushulae is from an adventure path.

** spoiler omitted **

my thanks.

still though, that would make her an unique monster and not teh norm. same with F-F-G.
irredeemable is the norm.

now someone put her on the wiki....

or point me the way

Every person is unique. Therefore, by your logic, we should discount every single person's story? You can correctly say that the vast majority of demons are so difficult to redeem that the chances of seeing one in your lifetime is almost zero. You can't correctly say demons are irredeemable period. Because if there is at least one example, your point is refuted.


Arushulae is from an adventure path.

Spoiler:
The mythic Paizo AP "Wrath of the Righteous" She is a redeemed succubus who, with the PCs' help, can eventually be CG.


Steelfiredragon wrote:

they are also irredeemable evil

demon

Not irredeemable. Just very difficult. Just ask Fall-From-Grace or Arushulae.


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Surprisingly, some of them wanted to execute the heretical worshippers but not necessarily the succubus.


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I love Hurtful. I call it adding injury to insult.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Bard-Sader wrote:
Nocticula specifically grants spells to her CN worshippers

Nocticula in particular has that unresolved plot hook of whether she actually intends to redeem herself and become a CN goddess, or whether creating this impression is some angle she's playing.

She's one of the few CE deities that where is probably acceptable to have non-evil followers, specifically because of the idea that she's seeking to move from the Abyss next door to the Maelstrom.

I'm currently playing a Nocticula heretical worshipper in a wrath of the righteous campaign, trying to redeem Nocticula. Things got really interesting/messy when the NPC Paladins found out. It was right around the time we brought back a certain succubus who was claiming to be redeemed as well.

The crusaders did not...react well.


Aren't all friends "born" evil?


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think a lot of the "be within one step of your deities alignment" stuff falls apart when you're talking about some of the CE deities.

A lot of the time throughout the history of this brand, Chaotic Evil is a stand in for "extra evil." 4e might have been on to something when it conflated NG and CG into "Good" and LE and NE into "Evil" leaving the top left and bottom right corners alone.

It's a completely valid house rule to say that you can't be a neutral follower of a Chaotic Evil deity. N follower of NE or LN follower of LE? That's justifiable, but not a CN follower of CE. If a player really wants to be edgy and play devil's advocate, Asmodeus or Norgorber are valid choices with justifiable portfolios. As for NPCs, the GM controls all of those so you can just say "nope, there are no non-evil followers of Cthuhu or Rovagug; if there were the true believers would kill them for lack-of-team-spirit."

Not all CE deities or demon lords would withdraw support from CN worshippers. Nocticula specifically grants spells to her CN worshippers. Her CE worshippers really hate that though.


In fact Ragathiel is a devil who turned into an empyreal iirc.


Torturing a demon is still not a Good thing to do. I mean, just ask Arushulae.


Paladins really can't torture. It's flat out evil, and isn't reliable anyways. Besides, even demons have a real (if extremely small) chance of redemption. You can't always write them off.


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Talonhawke wrote:
Next time on "Alignment and You!" we will quibble with such questions as "Do paladins fall if they slaughter an animal for food?", "How much collateral damage is 'too much'?", and "Can a paladin even actually kill a villian?"

Collateral damage is a very important and pertinent issue when it comes to alignment. You Can a paladin leading a war use a weapon of mass destruction that will hit some civilians if it will end up saving more lives?


for ease of play, I would suggest that the barbarian delays his initiative so that him and the eidolon go at the same time. That way, you can both both attack the same target witt he same charge, at the same time.

And yes, as long as the eidolon has a shape capable of riding the mount, there's nothing saying it can't.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


This is not any neutral person. This is a neutral cleric of an evil deity . This is someone that looked at all the evil a deity does and said "yeah , sure, i'll give my life over to that.. well most of it..." That is not farmer brown looking to mind their own business.

Would you say a Paladin would be justified in smiting heretical worshippers of Nocticula?


Yes, but was that HER free will, or Desna's will?


Legit question: Do aligned outsiders have Free Will?

Perhaps this is a better question for a separate thread?


I dunno...fallen angels seem like a copper a dozen. Alignment subtypes aren't complete locks.


Ragathiel is half DEVIL not DEMON though...

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