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Goblin Squad Member. Organized Play Member. 810 posts (18,017 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 112 aliases.


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Thanks :)
It's true. It's one of the things this genre struggles with I think, the disparity in wealth between a starship and the inhabitants therein.
I have added the attack as an edit.

Happy for them to start sans, uh, my PC.

@Kamiya feel free to take it, just whether I should take it as well.

I sort of feel like he needs to be fairly human, despite that I usually like a lot more transhuman and alien in my sci-fi. Sort of a... Ford Prefect type character?
Am I wrong? A lot of the other concepts I posted could mix in well with this if I am.

Does that mean Diplomacy is okay to take? A lot of things the 'captain' is supposed to be/do seem to need a diplomancer.

*Kip wrote:
Can we please RP finding Thyx, and also having Tim come back from the dead? That's too juicy to have just as backstory. If Tim doesn't mind missing the first little bit of gameplay, he can come back from the dead just as we get going?

I'm good with that.

I figure I need to be careful not to overlap with Kamiya. Shari - looks like you're aiming for Diplomacy?
Any other areas to avoid, or conversely requests for things to consider?
Witchwarper still leaves a lot of flexibility.

Okay - so is everyone okay with this;
In this world, X was with everyone else when they got the ship. He made a case to become captain, and there was some general agreement. At their first dock he dodged right when someone shot at him and got hit by a second assassin. Tragically dead the group continued on with various people trying their hand at captaining and a reluctant Kamiya giving up the helm. Yesterday he was walked out of the bathroom in his pyjamas.

In the other world, X was with everyone else when they got the ship. He made a case to become captain, and there was some general agreement. At their first dock he dodged left when someone shot at him, saw and engaged a second assassin and emerged victorious. He remained captain ever since. Yesterday he went to the bathroom in the middle of the night and when he emerged everyone freaked out.

Are there any themes that work well for starship captain?

Alright. Trying to come back up to speed on Starfinder. Been a LOT of stuff come out since we last played!

John Anderson PLLC is a little too close to Erix for comfort, and we have Thyx, so I am happy to agree pick a new PC.
I'd had a couple of ideas

1. Human warrior in love with his own AI. (Mechanic with weapon focused exocortex)
2. SRO R2-D2 analogue cleric-medic who argues theology with Robert, and keeps trying to "fix" broken humans (might be a little too Squeak)
3. Ijtikri playboy hitting 4 years old, about to have a midlife crisis and looking to settle down and have a few thousand kids.
4. Spathiane stowaway that regards the ship as Hive. Probably a spider-swarm analogue.
5. Barathu medic & cook who synthesizes complex compounds internally and finds alien DNA fascinating. Can't understand why humans are so weird about provenance. (again, a bit Squeak)
6. Witchwarper who joined the crew early, died, then turned up ages later - but it is actually the PC from a different reality. Claims to have evidence this is his reality and the PCs are the anomalies. Race is flexible, needs to fit in well. Would claim complex interactions with people in the past that didn't happen. Catchphrase: "Well in the PRIME reality we..." could work well as an add on to one of the others, so long as it doesn't clash with class. Otherwise would default to Wizard, I think.

Captain runs off CHA. Classes good with CHA are Envoy, Solaran and Witchwarper. We already have an Envoy. The closest match seems to be number 6 (Witchwarper) or possibly number 2 (SRO deist) if I can work out how to make the Force an actual religion with a guaranteed mythic not-an-ascended-mortal deity, maybe Yog-Sothoth?

I agree Kamiya would make a great "Mal" Reynolds type Pilot-Captain, but I don't think the rules will support it very well - any turn she Captains she can't do fancy piloting.

well, damn. Good catch!
Turns out I didn't really know how a travois works. If it can be carried in one hand (in a sort of bundle) and dropped whenever combat breaks out I could see him carrying it horizontally,
BUT I've certainly not been describing Erix carrying the equivalent of a tent, so I'll echo the "we left it behind". I feel like he could probably move okay with it strapped to his back in the outside (he does normally carry a polearm when travelling like this, and he's got -2 ACP) but would have dropped it just inside the entrance.

Congratulations, have fun!

@Oblivion's Scion: I don't envy you the decision - there are some great concepts. Whatever happens, thanks for posing such an intriguing game idea - it is has been a lot of fun to design for.
@All: thanks for being so fun to bounce off, and best wishes to whoever makes it!

Oblivion's Scion wrote:
I am still working out the details on equipment and wealth. I would like to discuss with those chosen the option of using a typical money/coin system versus an abstract wealth rule.

@Oblivion's Scion: Alright, been doing a bit of thinking about this. Especially with things like Promethean Alchemist and even Brew Potion it seems like Victorian science concepts might be a wee bit on the expensive side.

ABP suggests cutting down not just magic items, but overall wealth. just going to say gp for now
A pistol costs 400gp, and is probably one of the most expensive individual items we would be looking at. Getting enough gp to build a magic item seems like (A)would take a massive investment and (B) so rare as to beggar belief.
Can you confirm whether it reasonable to assume that hopefully being able to build 'Adam' one day is viable? Noting I don't mind whether we go with normal wealth, or use a resource system, or just use one of the optional system that gives each crafting feat a floating 'pool' of items.

@Oblivion's Scion: I think I've found a way to replicate Victorian medicine using traits and class features. Are there different rules for Heal in the campaign than in standard Pathfinder?

Nice :)

I dreamed of a Stone age campaign since I read a Dragon magazine article about when I was 12. Actually got to play a sort of proto-druid caster in a PbP here on the boards once, but sadly it did not last very long - some of the ideas from that ended up informing Harold.

If the reason you've been musing is due to the amount of extra work required, you're spot on. Every spell & feat seems to need to be checked.

The huge problem is that good armor is RARE. The best you can get without magic works out to be about AC +2. That makes spells & feats calibrated against equipment (like Mage Armor) AMAZING.
Weapons are not quite as bad (spears are surprisingly good), but slashing weapons are so rare DR slashing critters like zombies basically jump a CR.

Have you seen Orkworld, by John Wick? Similar idea (and once again, very difficult to run)

I'm interested in a character inspired by the various victorian style scientists. Watson, Jekyl, Griffin, Frankenstein, Moreau.
Initially I'd be looking at a Watson-Holmes hybrid; a classic jekyl-hyde type dichotomy except for the fact it is a mental rather than physical change.
Thus I am interested in an Alchemist(Vivisectionist-Mindchemist) or possibly Alchemist(Vivisectionist-Inspired Chemist).
I plan to copy be inspired by the background of Watson; a brilliant servant of the empire who became a doctor during a war. Injured he returns home. The difference here is that he would fall to his 'shellshock' and self medicate with drugs, ending up with an occasional job investigating corpses for a university friend at Scotland Yard and discovering his phenomonal intellect made him a halfway decent investigator. An attempt to keep his professional reputation at least partially intact leads him to create a synthetic persona for such investigations.

Weapon-wise he'd use a revolver. Given the vivisectionist trades bomb for sneak attack he'd be a crack shot.

I plan to provide Treat Deadly Wounds to supplement magical healing.

Depending on what @Fangdragon is submitting I'm happy to accelerate the move to a later concept earlier.

Options for the future (depending on what other characters we have) include; Jekyll(Mutagen), Griffin (Invisibility), Frankenstein (Promethean Alchemist Feat) Moreau (7th anthropomorphic animal)

@Oblivion's Scion: I am interested in reflavouring alchemy as a more 'victorian speculative chemistry/biology' if that is possible? This is to bring it in line with things like Jekyl's formula and Moraeu's surgery. There would be no mechanical difference.

set 1:

2d6 + 6 ⇒ (3, 2) + 6 = 11
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (1, 6) + 6 = 13
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (6, 6) + 6 = 18
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (5, 3) + 6 = 14
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (5, 5) + 6 = 16
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (2, 2) + 6 = 10

set 2:

2d6 + 6 ⇒ (2, 6) + 6 = 14
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (4, 6) + 6 = 16
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (1, 6) + 6 = 13
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (5, 4) + 6 = 15
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (5, 4) + 6 = 15
2d6 + 6 ⇒ (5, 2) + 6 = 13

@Edison: we should probably put this interaction in gameplay :)

@Arrak: yes, Haste is a bit of a cliche, but for a very good reason. Pathinder pretty much assumes it at higher levels, I think.

MrNomas wrote:
Harakani wrote:
Harakani wrote:

You can also have 2 Traits. If you like Appraise and Stealth, maybe
I'll be taking the first two, thank you very much!

Nono! Bonuses of the same type do not stack; no point in having two "+1 trait bonus".

if you really want to double down there were other traits that did strange things with appraise.
Otherwise I suggest either pick up a trait to give you another skill as a class skill or take the Combat Trait "Armor Expert" and pick up a chainmail shirt.

@Daryl: Hmmm. I think your spreadsheets are letting you down. You can only have a max of 2 ranks per skill. Appraise has 4 ranks.

Have you got an Archetype? Warforged can wear armor, and Magus can wear light armour and still cast, and they don't get a Bloodline.

You can also have 2 Traits. If you like Appraise and Stealth, maybe

Hmm. If he is missing memories he could also be missing the memory of selling his shade in the first place, of course. ;p

Hmm - how is this.
End of the war, victory celebration in Sharn. Shadow Collector turns up, nods and says "Erix Thorn. The war is over. Now is the day to pay what was promised."

He - drunk - is confused "I never promised anything..."
She takes his Shadow.

Basically, tie it into what was done to him during that period. Leave him with vague memories of everyone going on the mission pledging to the cause with some extravagant oath that mentioned death and spirit - something like Jordan's

Robert Jordan wrote:

“Til shade is gone,
til water is gone
Into the shadow with teeth bared
Screaming defiance with the last breath
To spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day.”

So now he wants to track her down and buy his shade back, or at least find out who onsold it.

Suffused with worry that he didn't lose his shadow - he lost his soul.

Harakani wrote:

Sounds good. Hmmm - the Mutagen lowers int. How about it long term messes with the mind?

The other option is to say that this is Old Erix, and young Erix was much more competent... but not sure about that one.

Doh! Was in the shower and I suddenly realised - Permanent Negative Levels.

I see a couple of mechanisms for this;
1. Permanent Negative Levels as part of becoming a part of the death squad

2. Actually died at the end and was sent off to be raised - meaning the Sisters missed taking revenge on him on the basis he was (temporarily) dead.

3. Tangled with a Shadow Collector, and has permanently lost his shadow. Take 2 neg levels and the drawback that makes you shadowless.

4. tangled with a

The shadow collector is probably the best bet - it explicitly states the negative levels cannot be restored. There might well have been one in Droaam (Eberron Fey apparently love nature, and these guys like the edges of forests and foothills) that scored a hit and ran. That would mean the army would have to be okay with him being shadowless, and the fact would need to be on his papers. Could be the reason he was removed from the squad (if they were worried he might turn, but were just doing checks) rather than being killed. Might also make him a bit... conspicuous. On the other hand it might make him a better sneaker.
"I got hit in the Soul during the War, and my Shadow was amputated" is a unique war wound.
Also gives him a very strong motivator; he has no ability to hunt this thing down, but his only real chance is if he does, and makes it give him his shadow back.

The raise dead/resurrection/clone thing works for me. Means he would have lost 'memories' of the most stressful time of his life, which might be a sort of fantasy PTSD.

Demilich is a long shot.


#4 sounds crazy, but back when I was first started playing and was 12, we had a group of mid level PCs who had to take out a demilich in 1st ed. We did this by liquidating most of the items we owned for holy water and hirelings. Demilich could only really drain about 1-4 a round. We kept it busy, they dropped enough barrels of holy water in its tomb room to basically keep it immersed. The mechanics have changed, but a bunch of expendable soldiers flinging large amounts of holy water is a huge boon to anyone who has to kill a demilich.

In this edition you would need people who can survive the telekinetic storm and wail of the banshee - both saves. Even mid level spells will get saves up against these quite a bit. If you get people who already have good saves, you can probably assume only half of them die a round.

There is a question as to whether holy water will damage a demilich due to DR, but I believe the damage of holy water does bypass most defences, being untyped and not weapon damage. The counterpart to this is the limited targets who take damage.

A vial of holy water does 2d4 damage on a hit, 1 on a miss. A demilich has 142 hp and can basically regenerate.

With its crazy high AC, most attacks are going to miss. You really need it grappled, or helpless or something.

One of the demilich weaknesses is that it only has an excellent CMD of 30. Given it is Tony, that CMD is really lower for most effects (not sure if already taken into account, but I do not think it is)

The likely problems are (A) curse (B) soul drain (C) wail of the Banshee and (D) telekinetic storm.
A golem is immune to almost all of these, and it would be relatively easy with most golem types to heal it as fast as the storm does damage. A lot of other constructs would also be resistant. Use of a spell like cushioning bands to provide bludgeoning protection would be advised.
Golems have very high CMB, and can be boosted higher with spells. There's a good chance a stone golem (or clay, or coral) could grab a slumbering demilich. What it can't do is injure it.
Cue the people. Forget vials of holy water, use a holy water hose. The telekinetic storm means it will have concealment, so just hit it with enough holy water that the splash damage will kill it.

Sounds good. Hmmm - the Mutagen lowers int. How about it long term messes with the mind?

The other option is to say that this is Old Erix, and young Erix was much more competent... but not sure about that one.

Sebastian ir'Brock wrote:
Harakani wrote:

This is what I have so far. I ended up going back and completely rewriting a bunch.

Sergeant Erix Thorn
** spoiler omitted **...

Damn, Tim!

I want to see the movie!

Good job! :)

Game on!


Ended up as a wall of text - the timeline should cover most of the important stuff.
I'm keen to talk through with you what the Time Of War was like.

@Phin: Are you okay with the timeline of time spent with Erix as a kid? I can see Phin being a mentor figure, but I can also advance the timelines a little if you'd prefer him to be older and less mentor-y.

@All: I think I have left enough room for hooks if other people want to tie in?

Erix has a plethora of ways to make very little money. Most of them are a +4, so he'd make about 7gp per week.

Hmmm - I might drop the Gear Maintenance Kit (5gp), the Longspear (5gp) and the Bear Trap (2gp) and buy a membership in the Deathsgate adventurers guild.

I can then stay there for 35sp a week (ouch) and 14sp a week for meals (49sp). Theoretically this lets him save 21sp a week, but I think when he's flush he'd have better meals, rather than carefully husbanding money.

If he gets occasional adventurer jobs then he's likely to almost run out of money, then make enough gold to get by quite well, then run skint again.

If he actually finds a place, I can see him saving up to buy masterwork tools so he can get that +2 and sweet extra gp per week.

This is what I have so far. I ended up going back and completely rewriting a bunch.
Sergeant Erix Thorn


Erix was born in Sharn in 950YK. His father Alain was a Fabricator, specialising in alchemical reagents to help process ore. His mother Margu was a woman from the foothills now known as Droaam - half orc, and the bearer of an Aberrant Dragonmark.
In 956 YK they moved to Graywall. Alain got a job working for the Byeshkf mines, and Margu was employed as a guard at the mining site. Though Erix does not know it, the move happened because Margu’s dragonmark became known, and the family felt it safer to flee.
Monsters raiding through the mountains was always a concern, but in 961YK a gnoll raid killed Margu, and captured Erix’s younger brother. Only the fact he was with his father at the time saved Erix, the two of them sheltering in the mine.
Alain moved his son to Sharn. His new job had less pay, and terrible hours, and young Erix fell in with bad company.
Erix started working for Mama Ellie at 13 in 963YK, first as a Lookout, then in 965YK as a Second Story man. Here he was paired with the much older Phin who became somewhat of a mentor. His father still hoped he would become a fabricator, but Erix had little talent and even less interest.
In 968YK, on his 18th birthday, Erix joined the military. He was sent to Castle Hill, a Brelish settlement past the Graywall mountains to help contain the monsters, and served in the infantry there. He fit in well with the locals, and met a local girl Gersi. Four months later they were married, and six months after that, in early 969 YK his eldest daughter Alaana was born.
Erix’s training with Phin in climbing and stealth came in very handy. The settlement had good walls, and they had regular patrols to ensure monsters were not building up in the hills. There was a policy of trading with some of the more ‘civilised’ inhabitants - primarily goblinoids and orcs - which allowed information about the surrounding areas to trickle back to Breland.
In 974YK Erix was transferred to the Front for three years. When he finally managed to get transferred back in 977YK after taking an injury he discovered Gersi had fallen for another man. They had a divorce, and while not amicable they agreed to joint custody of Alaana - though primarily she lived with her mother.
In 980YK Erix met a dwarven woman, Riki, and they started to live together. Riki had two children by a previous marriage, her husband having fallen in the war. Time with Phin meant Erix could accept a woman old enough that her children were older than he was.
In 984YK Alaana moved to Sharn. She apprenticed with her grandfather - Alain discovering alchemical aptitude had simply skipped a generation.
In 986YK the monstrous inhabitants of Droaam began to organise. Word filtered through of area after area uniting under a triumvirate. Monster attacks actually decreased during this time, the first major battle occuring at the end of 986YK when a small army of Gnolls, comprising the four local feuding tribes, attacked Castle Hill. Erix was badly burned, losing his sight. The walls of Castle Hill held, but Erix was transferred back to Sharn with a convoy of injured and noncombatants. The convoy was attacked three times on the way, and suffered losses, but arrived in Sharn. Erix made it. Riki did not.
Restoring Erix’s sight was more than just a simple Remove Blindness. The military bureaucracy debated whether to pay for the regeneration or pension him out. In the meantime he did his best to be useful.
In 987YK King Boranel decided to abandon the Brelish settlers. A final convoy came back from each settlement, turning independent settlers who had spent their lives taming the land into refugees. The lives spent defending the land were wasted. Erix protested, and was told the reasoning was that a coalition of Monsters was inherently unstable - there was no need to waste human lives.
In fact the situation was more complex. Some reasonably sized forces had been moved in to the area, and been lost. The Dark Lanterns had discovered that the major limiting factor on the monstrous forces was provisioning. Without supply wagons the creatures turned on each other. Sending soldiers to fight them simply created provisions - dead on both sides. Cavalry were the worst force to send, as a dead horse could feed an entire pack of gnolls for a week. An expensive group of Warforged had been sent to harass the monsters, only to be defeated and then - as Warforged were proving prone to doing - joining the other side.
A faction in the Dark Lanterns - perhaps the same geniuses who would later decide to recruit Aberrant Dragonmarked as a force of assassins - decided to accelerate the move to anarchy within Droaam.
They recruited people who they knew would not turn, and who were competent. The force they assembled was predicated on being expendable, and not being of use to the enemy. They were provisioned with potions and wands, and trained in enough alchemy to make best use of alchemical items. While expensive to operate the alchemical items were designed to be useless to the enemy. Each soldier was infected with a disease cured with a Conditional Favor - upon death the disease returned with a vengeance.
Erix was recruited - his skill in stealth learned under Phin, his skill in Alchemy learned under Alain and his skill with weapons learned as a soldier made his useful, but it was his desperation that made him the best candidate.
Changes were made to the candidates - some said it was a variant of Magebreeding, some claimed constructs, others whispered symbiotes. Whatever it was it made them stronger, faster, tougher. Able to force march for sixteen hours, stand watch for 8, and start again in the morning. The other thing it gave them was darkvision; guerilla action against creatures with darkvision was all but impossible without it.
Their missions involved destroying food, wrecking ecosystems, fomenting discord - often by disguising themselves as one monstrous race and ambushing another, allowing just enough to get away. One of their most successful missions used heavy crossbows and nearly a hundred Harpy Bane arrows. Aerial patrols used to be one or two harpies, but they forced the Droaamites to use four harpies, dramatically cutting down the number of patrols that could be launched. They were responsible for at least three Zombie Plagues in the back lines.
After 2 years Erix had to leave. He’d coped with much of what they’d done, but when they’d infiltrated a Gnoll slavemarket and deliberately released Zombie Plague he’d almost cost them the mission. He’d understood, logically, that there was simply no way to get exhausted humans through forty miles of mountainous wilderness to safety, that the humans were destined to be tortured, killed and eaten, that the plague was the last way they could serve humanity against an existential threat… but the nightmares he’d avoided by not sleeping for nearly two years started to come out during the day, and his team leader had sent him off for ‘Mental Healing’.
The slave plague had proved to be too much. The Sisters investigated personally, discovered what happened, ambushed the team on the next mission, and paid a personal visit to the staging area. Erix was one of five survivors away from both mission and staging area, and of the five he was the only one near fit to serve.
While his shadowy overseers regrouped Erix was transferred back to the regular infantry, promoted to sergeant due to the commendations he’d racked up for murdering or helping to murder (according to the ears he kept) eight five gnolls, four minotaurs, sixteen harpies and too many goblins to count. A bureaucratic screw up accidentally marked him as one of the dead. Being dead was useful - no-one expected him to be aiming for retirement because no-one realised he was almost forty. His juvenile record was finally expunged. He didn’t realise at the time - traumatised as he was - that the regular stipends he’d set up fell through and his children were notified of his death.
In 989YK he was transferred to the Karnaath front, and put in charge of a small squad including Sebastian, who was his second. Looking after a squad of mostly green recruits in a clear cut battle between good and evil was a balm for Erix’s soul. He threw himself into his work.
In 992YK the war ended. Suddenly there was an influx of ex-soldiers looking for other jobs. Erix was terrified to discover that at 44, after 26 years in the armed forces, he had no idea what to do. His first reaction was to find a way to be a soldier, and he ended up taking a temporary demotion - as his lieutenant explained “with the current oversupply of trained soldiers, sergeant is the new private” to rejoin the forces patrolling the Cyre border and hunting for refugees - and hidden dangers.
In 993YK he returned to Sharn and sought out his old companion Sebastian - always a deft hand at surveillance - to find his family and see how they were doing. His step sons both had jobs in the Cogs. his daughter had followed in her grandfather’s footsteps, veered to an interest in alchemical healing, and was now well set up.
Rather than admit the truth Erix equivocated. He returned to his criminal roots, making contact again with Phin. He applied to the Watch. He fought in the Pits. He explored the cogs, camping for weeks in an area to clear it of Droaamites. He was a bouncer at a bar. A bounty hunter. It was as he was considering an offer to join house Tarkanan as an assassin that Sebastian floated his Inquisitive Agency idea, and Erix simply fell in.
Recently he decided to learn more about what had been done to him. He approached his father, only to end up sending the old man into apoplectic shock. He arranged to become one of a pool of apprentices competing to learn alchemy himself in an effort to get closer to his daughter.

Phin: old mentor and friend.
Sebastian: trusted second. Erix accepts Sebastian is smarter, wiser and more charismatic than Erix - Sebastian is more like a brother than a son.
Alaana: as far as Erix knows Alaana Thorne (she gentrified the name) is a well to do alchemist/surgeon. In fact Alaana inherited her grandmother’s mark and when she heard her father had died was an easy recruit for the Dark Lanterns who set up House Tarkanan.

Timeline (age, year, event)
46 996 current day. Daughter is 26.
44 992 war ends
40 990 House Tarkanan appears in Sharn, created accidentally by the Dark Lanterns
39 989 Erix becomes Sebastian’s sergeant.
38 988 Sebastian joins up
37 987 King Boranel pulled the few remaining Brelish settlers away from beyond the Graywall Mountains and declared the region off-limits. Erix joins the shadow squad.
36 986 Daughters of Sora Kell appeared out of nowhere with a monstrous army to declare the formation of a new nation
34 984 Daughter moves to Sharn (15)
19 969 Erix is married. Daughter is born.
18 968 Erix joins up. Sent to the Graywall front.
15 965 warforged perfected
13 963 Erix starts working for Mamma Ellie
11 961 Erix and his father move to Sharn
10 960 Phin starts working for Mamma Ellie
6 956 Erix and parents move to Greywall.
00 950 Erix born

Appearance notes
Growing out his hair (had to have short hair all his life). Tried growing out his beard, but it came out wonky. Hair is jet black - used to be sandy brown. Eyes are dark blue, but pupils enlarge all the way to the sclera.


Erix Thorn
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Brawler (Mutagenic Mawler, Turfer)
Init +2; Senses Darkvisiion 60ft,; Perception +
----- Defense -----
AC (leather) 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+2 armor +2 dex)
AC (lamellar) 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor +2 dex)
AC (lamellar + shield) 18, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor +2 dex +2 shield)
AC (lamellar + shield + mutagen) 20, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor +2 dex +2 natural +2 shield)
hp 22 (2xd10+2 con +1 favored)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +0
----- Offense -----
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed attack +6 1d6+4
Melee Flurry Unarmed attack +4/+2 1d6+4
Ranged Sling +4 1d4+4
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
----- Statistics -----
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; CMB +6; CMD 18
Feats Combat Reflexes, Combat Stamina, Bodyguard
Skills Acrobatics +6 (+1 rank +3 trained +2 dex), Climb +8 (+1 rank +3 trained +4 str), Craft (Alchemy) +4 (+1 background +3 trained +0 int), Intimidate +4 (+1 rank +3 trained +0 cha), Knowledge +4 (Local) (+1 rank +3 trained +0 int), Perception +4 (+1 rank +3 trained +0 wis), Profession: Criminal +4 (+1 background +3 trained +0 wis) , Profession: Soldier +4 (+1 background +3 trained +0 wis), Sense Motive +4 (+1 rank +3 trained +0 wis), Stealth +6 (+1 rank +3 trained +2 dex +1 trait), Survival +2 (+1 rank +0 att +1 trait), Linguistics +1 (+1 background +0 int) Racial Modifiers +2 racial bonus on Intimidate, Perception, and Stealth checks in dim light or darkness.
Traits Charming - Erix has been left with gorgeous skin, a classically proportioned body, and symmetrical features - and is uncomfortable with the fact, The Outsider - Erix wants to fit in somewhere. He spent his whole life adapting to the War, and now it is gone, and he doesn't know who he is without it.
Languages Common, Gnoll
----- Special Abilities -----
----- Initial Equipment -----
Leather Armor (10gp)
Lamellar Armor (60gp) - reinforcements for above
Heavy Wooden Shield (7gp)
Waveblade (5gp)
Brawler’s Kit (9gp)
Meels (10gp)
Grappling Hook (1gp)
Soldier’s Uniform (1gp) - kept for sentimental reasons, this is his dress uniform.
Shaving Kit (1.5gp)
Mess Kit (.2gp)
Gear Maintenance Kit (5gp)
Bear Trap (2gp)
Alchemy Crafting Kit (25gp)
4 Wooden Stakes (0gp) - kept because of an incident with a vampire back against Karnath
Long Spear (5gp) - has a detachable head, and typically the head will not be attached. Also has the remains of a flag he has folded around it, suggesting it is a flagpole.
Sling (0gp)
Garrote (3gp)
Ripsaw Glaive (30gp) - note, not proficient. This is a weapon he took from a construct he killed, and had someone jury rig a rip cord. Incredibly scary, but totally impractical.
Whetstone (0.02gp)
Crowbar (2gp)
Box of ears (0gp)
Papers (2gp)
8 cp

Still churning through alternate builds, but some things are staying constant.

I see Henry as a gifted soldier, but not adapting well to civilian life. He's loyal to his friends, and has some connections with the more seedy side of the city. Left to his own devices he'll end up drifting into burglary and probably eventually becoming a thug for hire.

Draft doc here

@Jussi: Am I right that Traits cannot be Campaign Traits? I was thinking about World Weary
Are you using the aging rules?
I'm tempted by the favored class bonus to Slayer talents, but I feel like 4 levels is much more than most campaigns do. How many levels are you thinking we'll get through?

@Fabian: would you be interested in Sebastian and Henry having served together in the war?

Happy new Decade everyone :)

Fabian Benavente wrote:
Harakani wrote:
Hmmm - was anyone thinking about Teamwork feats?

Tim, I used to hate those and would try to steer away from them unless absolutely necessary because they are very situational.

That being said, we should try to take advantage of every class' perks.

My PC will be melee based; what did you have in mind?

I tend to agree they're situational. Seemed appropriate for a military man, and Vanguard gets the ability to 'share one' 1/day. I'm likely to get Precise Strike (basically sneak attack 1d6) or Shake it Off (+1 stacking bonus to all saves per adjacent). Happy to look at something else if there is one you were interested in.

Part of the situational is "what are the odds someone would have this feat". Given I get one for free I'm happy to try to match with someone if there is a situational feat that is useful.

@Jussi: what sort of armour can we walk around in? Is a Breastplate too much? Chainmail? Armoured coat? or should it be semi-concealable like a Chain Shirt?

I am, despite the class, hoping to play the tank/bruiser.

@Fabian: so a leverage style role matchup?

"Phin the Raccoon"There's an archetype that looks interesting but I would have to give up trapfinding which is kind of the purpose of a rogue...[/QUOTE wrote:

Ah, but Fabian has fallen on that sword by picking up Investigator, which also gets Trapfinding.

Kirsdrake wrote:
Phin the Raccoon wrote:
Here's my rogue's name but that's as far as I've gotten so far. I'm home now and hope to get some work done on my character tomorrow :)

No hurry, since Gary just got here and has to start with thinking up a concept.

Anyway... good side, the party already has all the vital slots filled, so you can pretty much make whatever tickles your fancy. The only thing really missing is a fast-progression full caster class, but that's hardly necessary. Bad side, 5 classes are already taken and I'd rather have something new in the party than different frosting on a class that already has been taken ;^) But luckily, PF has tons of classes to pick from, and the Eberron conversion adds the Artificer to the mix, so you shouldn't feel overly constrained by lack of options.

If you want the full BAB slot, I'm happy to move around.

I'm holding off on posting a build until I see what Phin looks like - there's a lot of overlap between slayer and rogue, both classes are big enough to avoid it, but I'd like to make sure.

Hmmm - was anyone thinking about Teamwork feats?

@Fabian: If it's rapier you want, could I talk you into dipping a level of Inspired Blade? It gets you weapon focus, weapon finesse, a panache pool based on intelligence, the ability to parry and a level of +1 BAB. That means if you take it at level 1 you should qualify for Fencing Grace. You add your dex to hit and damage with a rapier (and get +1 to hit) at that point.

Kirsdrake wrote:
from 2 to 4 people who can get by in melee

Slayer is a Full BAB class. I plan on pushing physical stats, and taking combat feats, so should be roughly equivalent to a fighter. If I take Precise Strike as the sharable teamwork feat (instead of shake it off for better saves), then 1/day we should be quite scary if we do melee. I was hoping to pick up Gang Up at 3rd, if we're going to have enough melee attackers.

Do we, or do we primarily do range?

Kirsdrake wrote:
The party does not have a full-progression caster of either type


I mean if we NEED a full Caster, I'm happy to do it. I considered it, but one of the reason I backed off was the number of partial casters we have.

Kirsdrake wrote:
No proper tanks either, but then again, tanking isn't easy unless you are playing 4th edition (although PF1 had that taunt-like feat I have never experienced in-game), and besides, heavy armor is a) expensive and b) draws undue attention from the Sharn Watch.

I assumed Heavy Armor wasn't something you can just wear around. I was going to ask what is allowed. I could go up to Heavy Armor and Shield. Hp are d10. I was looking at Combat Expertise. If I manage to get dex +2, breastplate, large shield and combat expertise I should be able to hit 21 AC when tanking. If the others have a buff or two, or I can get healed up, I should be able to soak a number of hits.

Would combat reflexes be better? Then I could AoO those pushing past to get to the others.
What do we need?

@Jussi: you convinced me pretty well. I had this idea that the magic sword meant he'd managed to kill a couple of tough creatures with a lot of DR/Magic, and got a rep for being dangerous. But if the world is very low magic items, that becomes pretty unrealistic - why would he just be allowed to go back to his life? I tend not to get attached to concepts early on - I've lived long enough to know there'll be another game where the concept is a better fit.

@Tom, Sure; happy to hand it over.

@All: The slayer is much grittier. Still thinking on race. I'm half tempted by a tribeless Orc who ended up adopting his unit, but worried it is too unique. Very keen on pushing group cohesion whatever, though.
I'm trying to channel noir; older character, divorced, never really forged a connection with his kids because he spent so long in the field. Has a lot of friends who died. Possible alcoholism. Also trying not to be a total basket case :)

@All: I'm planning for him to have a serious issues with 'enemy combatants' and possibly warforged - depending on how much @Tom wants to roleplay being the victim of prejudice (which is much easier if someone actually is bigoted, but no so much to be bad for the group cohesion). Basically, I want to try to support the canon Jussi is building up.

I noticed I almost always do a spellcaster, so I thought I'd try something different.
Thus; I am thinking a Slayer (Vanguard). An ex-sergeant looking for a way to fit in with civilian life.
Ideally I'd like a number of us to have been attached to a military unit, and give him an additional incentive to be protective.

Still not 100% sure; I need to make sure I don't overlap too badly. Also looked at a Fighter or Brawler - but much the same basic idea.

Kirsdrake wrote:
Hmm... in a campaign that seeks to limit access to magical items, classes that get fairly powerful magic items as part of their level-ups sounds slightly questionable to be honest.

Hmmm - the concept was that the magic item was in place of normal advancement, but I hadn't considered WBL implications. I have heard it works in low magic campaigns, but in retrospect they were campaigns that used the low magic unchained rules.

I will think on it, but that might fundamentally flaw the concept. I was going to start with Arcane bond. Sentience wasn't required for the concept, but behaviour imposition was.

Well, unless Jussi is prepared to open the box of worms that is Mythic, I think the only way to pull this off is Bladebound Magus.
I have spent a *long* time looking for other ways of getting a magic sword.

Technically an Arcane Bond might allow it, and means the 2K enchanting cost is halved to 1K. There's the ability to get a 5% discount on that, which means 950. There's a trait that lets you start with 900gp. If I really, really keep looking I might be able to pull it off and end with a dedicated item crafter... or I can just get a Black Blade.

Jussi: are you okay with the blade 'awakening' when we hit 3rd? or can I spend a Feat on +1 with blade, and retrain it at 3rd?

If we don't need muscle I am fine to play something else. Also fine if the concept, rather than the sword itself, stretches to a different class.
Mostly I'd like strong inter-character ties

Ah! I posted in Recruitment!

I liked playing Arodric, who was inspired by Valdar of the Magic Sword (Lawrence Watt-Evans' Misenchanted Sword). I'd like to do something in the same vein (but not the same PC).

So; a melee fighter, got a reputation in the war, but only fought because that's just what people did. Now wants to live peacefully(ish), get a job, etc - but his only marketable skills are (A) finding problems and (B) killing people.

When a friend seemed to have a job for someone who could lean on their reputation to avoid actual fighting, it seemed too good to be true. And it was.

Sorry for the confusion, I kept looking at Recruitment and it only just occurred to me to check out Discussion - but I think I missed the boat!
Sounds like everyone is pretty much ready to go, and Mowque is already in.
Hope everyone has a great game :)

Only just found this, and submission has closed! Ah well.
@TheMightyAtom: if you end up reopening submissions at any point in the future, please drop me a pm.

@Sappy: Thank you :)
I should have provided a link - it is a (Combat, Practitioner) trait.
Mastered Talent (Combat, Practitioner): You have focused on a single combat talent, gaining greater proficiency with it. Select 1 combat talent; you treat your base attack bonus as 1 higher for the purposes of its effects. At 5th level and every 4 levels afterwards, the chosen talent’s base attack bonus is treated as an additional 1 higher, although the talent’s effective base attack bonus cannot be higher than your character level.

Hmmm. Ada Babbage. Not that her true name is likely to be bandied about.

Looking to do a DCES6/7 (Deep Cover Eater of Souls, grade 6/7), otherwise a bit of an all rounder thanks to the flexibility of spells. Mostly, she's a tank in combat.

Deep Cover; I was thinking she'd find someone with clearance, then assume their identity via Assume Appearance (or greater assume appearance) cast ritually. then spend a fortnight (or until caught or mission completed) in that form. Finally "commit suicide" and move on.
@GM Sappy: is this appropriate? If this is an urgent mission she could abandon a normal mission, or just have a more random "cover". I like the idea she's paranoid about people finding out who she really is, and has covers like an onion.

Still need to do spells and Equipment, but at the moment is here
Is it okay to purchase extra spells as per base rulebook (scribe +50%) or some other manner?

Also trying to decide which of three traits to cut. Either student of philosophy or enduring spellcraft, I think, but if you want to rule mastered talent cannot be applied to a base sphere talent it would decide things.

Alright, at the moment looking at a Wizard (Ritualist, Pact Wizard) 7 Tank. Shades of undead, soul eating, generally being a bit worrisome.

@Warriorking9001: How much of the Sanguine stuff are you putting in? Trying to work out how much I should or should not. Mostly will be soul eating, rather than blood drinking, I think.

Okay, I have a background.
I'm Australian, so I started looking for an Australian equivalent. I found this...

our world:

* Charles Babbage (CB) builds the Difference Engine (approx 1831), designs the Difference Engine II (1847-1849) and works on the Analytical Engine until his death (1833-1871)
* CB's youngest surviving son (Maj-Gen) Henry Prevost Babbage (HPB) (1824–1918) worked in his father's workshop, and after his father's death (1871) took over work with the analytical engine, building prototypes and parts until his own death in (1918).
* CB's son Dugald Bromhead Babbage (DBB) (1823-1901) also worked in his father's workshop. He moved to Adelaide in 1849, and married in 1854.
* CB's eldest son Benjamin Herschel Babbage (BHB) (1815-1878) worked with Isambard Kingdom Brunel, and moved to Adelaide in 1851. He did geological and mineralogical surveys, and explored South Australia. He was elected to the South Australia house of assembly in 1857, but resigned after a year to lead an expedition. In 1873 he build a manor nicknamed "Babbage's Castle", that sadly fell to ruin within decades. in 1877 he announced his candidacy for the legislative assembly but did not go to the polls. "Herschel while protective of his less able younger brother (DBB), despaired of his propensity to mix with social inferiors and his fondness for drink."
* BHB's eldest son was Charles Whitmore Babbage (CWB) (1842-1923). CWB accompanied his father on expeditions. He married in 1869. On 1 July 1876 he was charged with embezzling £1616, and in September was sentenced to seven years imprisonment for that and passing a fraudulent cheque - he had been speculating on the stock market. During his sentence his wife moved to New Zealand, and he followed her when he got out
* BHB also had a son Henry, and a son Eden, and two daughters named Ada.
* Ada Rosalie Babbage (1855-1936) married William D Clare in 1881.
BHB had 2 daughters named Ada. Ada Isabella Babbage (1853-1855) and Ada Rosalie Babbage (1855-1936). It may be worth noting that Ada Lovelace - the famous first programmer, who designed the first program for the Analytical Engine - died in 1852.
1840-1853? was a boon period in Adelaide. In the 1860s it had great agriculture, and gold was discovered, leading to another boom. This was primarily a labour shortage.

Now, with no disrespect to the actual people involved, and working from a skeleton of information mostly acquired from Wikipedia and Genealogy sites, and in a world with actual magic, I'd like to suggest the following alt-history.

the alt-history:

B Herschel Babbage was a successful man. He delighted in his expeditions, but was a loyal family man, taking his eldest son Charles along on his expeditions and ensuring his less capable brother Dugald had a job. He followed his father's work avidly, even naming his daughter after the brilliant Ada Lovelace, and despaired with his brothers when his father died in 1871. In 1875 he started quietly telling people he intended to again stand for a seat in politics in 1877.
His own son Charles, however, was desperate. Charles Whitmore Babbage had been raised to live up to certain expectations - and his position at the bank did not bring in enough to cover it. Keen to use his (award winning) intellect to make some more money he had started lightly speculating in the stockmarket back in 1862, and had done quite well as the market boomed on the back of the gold rush. More and more he invested in the ever growing market. When one of his stocks started to fall he doubled down, confident it would rebound again, but was wrong and in 1874 he started to embezzle a little money from the bank to cover his losses - and then paid it all back when his fortune momentarily changed. And then changed again. Desperate for a turn around he reached for help to his uncle Dugald - somewhat of a reprobate.
Dugald had helped explore the continent, and been all to happy to socialise with the natives. It was never his intellect that let the family down, simply his discipline. He'd noted the fact the songlines often marked the best routes, and was impressed with the huge complexity of the songs, and the way they were memorised. Essentially the songs were programs for people, explaining how best to move across the landscape. There was undoubtedly a paper in it, but he'd contented himself with recording and remembering them, and even designing comparable 'programs' that could be put into songs. In this world, however, certain of the songs "programs" did more than just encode directions. Music is mathematics, in a way, and a form of mathematics humans are uniquely able to process. One 'family' of the songs used magic to make slow, subtle changes to the mind, making it better able to remember and pass on songs in the future - and in so doing accidentally and incidentally improved human mathematical capability. Dugald found himself rebuilding an old piano roll organ to better play the songs, drawing on his engineering from when he was young and worked in his father's office - remembering the old man complain about organ grinders!
When desperate Charles came to Dugald for help in finding a creditor, Dugald found himself not just lending his own money, but moved to suggest improvements to the mathematical process Charles used to pick stock. Inspired mathematics, as Charles came to realise. The new algorithm was not much better - but it was better. At the next downturn Charles didn't lose money, and didn't need to embezzle. and our histories diverge.
Dugald was fired from his job as his obsession with the songs and the mechanical organ got the better of him. It was now his turn to come to Charles for help, his information about the embezzling leaving Charles with little alternative but to help. And yet - the design was inspired. The program that it was designed to run? An improved algorithm for the stock market.
1877 rolled round and, scandal free, Herschel was elected. Charles and Dugald convinced him to fund some of his grandfather's work - to create an analytical engine that could be used in many ways - by the astronomical society, by the bank, and for engineering the large projects of the telegraph. In Charles Todd (the Astronomical and Meteorological Observer, Head of Electric Telegraph Department, and Postmaster General in South Australia) they found an ally in this. Obviously one computer was an outrageous expense for one organisation, but if it could be shared by multiple organisations it might be worth building as infrastructure - just like the telegraph and the railway.
In 1878 the Babbages (primarily Dugald, but also including Charles, Herschel, and the youngsters Henry and Ada) embarked on the new Engine. Their father had left his notes to Henry Provost Babbage, but Henry was all too delighted to send a copy to his brothers. Sadly Herschel passed away in 1878 as the work was only just embarking. They were funded to the tune of almost 10000 pounds - until the depression of 1890 hit and their work was stopped.
Even the partially functional machine still ran the algorithm a thousand times faster than a human could do. Charles had been "testing" the machine with his algorithm, and his fortunes had improved just as dramatically. He made the decision to purchase the decommissioned machine for a song, and moved it to his father's vineyard. As "Babbage's Castle" was starting to fall down due to inexperience with the local lime he made the decision to start a new building. The algorithm helped him keep his fortune in a falling market and so the new building was a tribute to his father's building, but larger. A true castle.
For the next three years Charles quietly built his fortune and the Engine, and Dugald became its mad prophet. Charles engaged a factory using his grandfather's methodology on efficiency, and started to turn out a huge number of parts. New parts kept coming in, and the Engine grew and grew, consuming an entire floor of he castle. In 1881 Ada, now engaged, activated a newly installed module and finally it passed a critical threshold.
While the actual computing power involved was miniscule, it represented almost all the computing power of the know world. Its mathematical operations called out to creatures in the great beyond, and they came. The machine glowed, and Ada died.
Charles went to turn off the machine when the mechanical woodwind started howling an approximation of a voice. It offered power, knowledge - anything, just so long as the machine kept running. Charles demanded it bring Ada back - more as a curse than as a true demand - and the machine assented.
It was, it later explained slowly, from the future. Temporal projection back through time was a possibility - so long as there was a contiguously operating, stationary machine to work through. Living creatures were both too fragile and too mobile for the strategy to work, but a mechanical engine was stationary and a million times harder to damage than electrical or biological systems. Ada had been an accidental casualty - not of the Voice itself, but of the miniscule creatures that swarmed around it.
The Babbages considered.
Then, faced with wealth beyond measure, knowledge of the future, and power even beyond death, they accepted.
The Voice was from the future, but every move made in the past changed the future, and thus the Voice. Keeping the timeline consistent was important so that at the right point they could make the right choice.
It's purpose was simple - in the future humanity (the Voice referred to them as 'you' rather than 'we') would become too many. So many that they would (it struggled with this) awaken things that should not be awakened. Humanity was, simply, doomed. The Voice intended to change that. "I failed once. I understand now - the Ends justify the Means. And to stop the End of Man, any means is acceptable."

Not too sure what to do with the character, but...
I envision a secret family order in the Adelaide hills. Necromancers and Eaters of Souls. Servants of a spirit they trust, but don't understand. Small, but with a march stolen on even Turing. Rich. Powerful. Descendents of Ada Babbage, who at 94 still looks 26 but doesn't meet with visitors in the dim lest they see her eyes glow.

The character would have been sent to help fight the Germans before they even began. She'd officially be an 'independent'. Ruthless, but not needlessly cruel, she is fighting to save the world. Your body is just a machine. There is a god, but the only afterlife is so bad having your soul destroyed is a blessing.

@GM Sappy: Okay, so is this too off the rails? Should I start again?

Congratulations to those who made it!

Hmmm - how is the party for (seperately) trap detection and device disabling, please?

I realise I'm a late addition. I'm a sucker for a humble origins story, and I've been thinking about it for a while - reading bits and pieces to try to get a feel for the game.

At the moment I'm thinking of a Wizard - a sort of mirror to Perrin. An apprentice to a master who had largely retired from the world, and recently passed away. The apprentice will be educated but not worldly, having never see anything of the world beyond the small village the wizard sourced his supplies from.

The apprentice carries his master's book - his only legacy - and casts a lot from that, with the book acting as a metaphysical crutch and having little idea of his own power.

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After a lot of thought.

Customisation at level 1.

Background: I loved the idea of skill feats, ancestry feats, class feats, "multiclass feats" and general feats in theory but the current implementation seems a bit flat. At high levels I can see there are more options (and here I am talking about "option slots", as I realise the number of options to install in those slots will go up over time) but the vast majority of my characters never get past level 3, and I now regard level 5 like most people regard level 20.

1st level characters need more differentiation.


At a minimum I'd like to see all classes with a level 1 class feat - even if it is in reality a feat tax style feat.

The fact someone cannot start as a multiclass bothers me. Fiction is full of characters who are an A and a B. These cannot be built in the current system until higher levels


Please give Ancestries more options at 1st!
Especially if you are going to do half-elf and half-orc. I was a huge fan of the idea at the start (it's basically multiclassing for races) but the first implementation was disappointing and the second implementation is worse.

Paizo; The lack of options means you are handicapping your ability to release new races later!

The concept of Heritages as "Ancestry Feats you can't pick up after 1st" sounded great! Magic is always going to be the way to get round this, of course, but it explained a lot. By all means add the heritage combos together to create sub-races ("Oh, Drow have the Darkvision and Natural Magic heritages but High Elves have the Snooty and Natural Magic heritages)

Yes, some of these Heritages are going to be the same (like Darkvision) but I am okay with that.

Incidentally - I have run a very successful high power 1e game where I doubled racial effects at the start - a very simple change that really worked to make race important at the start (the theme I wanted in the game).

Skill and Background

A level 1 skill feat gives characters a thing that there character is better at. I am okay with this being covered by the Background, I guess, as that is really all that is.

Not the issue

Scaling Feats. Note that scaling feats (which on balance I like) will not help with this issue as they don't actually scale until higher levels.

Imbalanced Feats. I'm fine if all feats are not equal (I guess) - though I do think designers should try for feats to be equal within their type and level.

Feat Trees. I like Feat Trees. You can stop people climbing the tree at the start (like humans in 1e) by just making one feat require level 2.

Total Numbers of Feats. Look - if there's math that says a 20th level character can't have more than X feats, fine. Give them more at 1st and slightly slow the gain over the next 19. Especially with Ancestry where it makes sense to front load this! We're all looking up tables or using sheets now, so when we get feats doesn't necessarily need to be able to be described by a simple "Every x level" formula, I think.

N00b characters. If People want characters at 1st to be even weaker, it would be really easy to do a "level 0" optional build. You get Ancestry, Background, Racial HP, and the multiclass feat for your actual class.

Just Start Higher. Sure - in theory GMs could just "start" their games at 3rd with characters below 3rd being trainees. Unless all the APs start doing this people are still going to want to start at level 1, where you are a competent and differentiated professional.

Other ways of customisation. Sure, wizards can have different spells and fighters can wear different armour. A lot of these options can be switched though. My wizard can teach spells to my friends, and your light fighter can wear the tank's full plate.

Signature Skills. I love the change away from signature skills as a way of doing customisation (Please, please don't change it back!) But it's been done now and while it helps it is not enough.

I really like the idea of Tiered dedication feats.
One issue that shows up with multiclass is 'dipping'. I can see dedication feats (with their minimum feats) being a way to fix this, but tiers go even further. You could also work the dedication into the tiers.
X [Dedication]
Number of [X] feats, including this one.
1: gain trained proficiency in A and B
2: gain additional trained proficiency in C
3: gain additional trained proficiency in D
4: You may take another dedication feat.

Heck, if dedication is primarily giving proficiency, with the additional bonuses effectively being "tacked on" to other feats in the tree (via tiers) then the dedication feat can be General [1] without breaking anything!

Bardarok wrote:
Draco18s wrote:

Touche, but it just makes my point pretty solid:

90% of skill feats are garbage, and 90% of the rest are garbage at low levels.

Finding *A* skill great worth having is hard and the list of ones people should actually look at its very short. (I just picked a bad example for the list because I wasn't looking at the book).

Yes I agree. I only knew that because I had a player want to make a cool jumping monk and we decided that high jump/long jump were generally pretty weak. My players have stopped picking skill feats during character creation. It's not worth the time to look through them when for the most part they are downtime, useless, or too situational to remember in play.

My players Love Downtime. Stick in Downtime only feats that do not compromise their basic combat build and they'll agonise over them.

The trouble with situational is that while it should mean they can be powerful because they'll never come up, it also means the characters can do things to make it come up.

My group played a goblin group. All goblin. Stealthed their way through most of an adventure in DD (before illness and apathy killed the game). Stealth feats are designed to be limited by the fact that a lot of the time other characters are not using it and so it is situational. Not so here.

This makes them hard to balance. You sort of have to balance them on the assumption people are taking them when they'll be more useful. "Courtly Graces" is a terrible feat... unless you are playing a Court game, for instance.

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