How is he even firing this thing?! Wouldn't the grain of powder in a fine sized gun be as wide as the barrel?!
I would argue the easiest way to balance out (or 'counter') the gunslinger is to simply increase the level of the challenges they are all facing.
Have more creatures in each fight, make them able to survive a single hit (or more) so that he isn't just machine-gunning them to death every hit.
STRICTLY enforce ammunition rules, they are there for a reason! The faster he fires, the more money he spends.
Environment can neuter gunslingers completely. Immersion in water renders the weapon useless until cleaned and reloaded...
You don't have to 'nerf' his class, this is a high powered game, just increase the difficulty to a level you are all comfortable with.
Sounds super fun btw, good to see a GM who isn't afraid to let the players make crazy characters.
I would have gone Half-Dragon, if it were allowed. :D
Josh-o-Lantern wrote: How is he even firing this thing?! Wouldn't the grain of powder in a fine sized gun be as wide as the barrel?! He changed to medium size after noticing he only gets his damage from his dex bonus, making things a bit more tough for me. But a lot of this advice is helpful.
alexd1976 wrote: I would argue the easiest way to balance out (or 'counter') the gunslinger is to simply increase the level of the challenges they are all facing.
Have more creatures in each fight, make them able to survive a single hit (or more) so that he isn't just machine-gunning them to death every hit.
STRICTLY enforce ammunition rules, they are there for a reason! The faster he fires, the more money he spends.
Environment can neuter gunslingers completely. Immersion in water renders the weapon useless until cleaned and reloaded...
You don't have to 'nerf' his class, this is a high powered game, just increase the difficulty to a level you are all comfortable with.
Sounds super fun btw, good to see a GM who isn't afraid to let the players make crazy characters.
I would have gone Half-Dragon, if it were allowed. :D
Slowly working around him, but he did take half dragon. Oh the irony! But I enjoy a challenge
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Timothy Masters wrote: Josh-o-Lantern wrote: How is he even firing this thing?! Wouldn't the grain of powder in a fine sized gun be as wide as the barrel?! He changed to medium size after noticing he only gets his damage from his dex bonus, making things a bit more tough for me. But a lot of this advice is helpful.
alexd1976 wrote: I would argue the easiest way to balance out (or 'counter') the gunslinger is to simply increase the level of the challenges they are all facing.
Have more creatures in each fight, make them able to survive a single hit (or more) so that he isn't just machine-gunning them to death every hit.
STRICTLY enforce ammunition rules, they are there for a reason! The faster he fires, the more money he spends.
Environment can neuter gunslingers completely. Immersion in water renders the weapon useless until cleaned and reloaded...
You don't have to 'nerf' his class, this is a high powered game, just increase the difficulty to a level you are all comfortable with.
Sounds super fun btw, good to see a GM who isn't afraid to let the players make crazy characters.
I would have gone Half-Dragon, if it were allowed. :D
Slowly working around him, but he did take half dragon. Oh the irony! But I enjoy a challenge Also, blocking his line of sight/using cover/concealment can go a LONG way.
Ethereal foes...
Rain.
There are a series of spells designed to nerf gunslingers as well (check out Ultimate Combat).
Something as simple as natural fog can seriously neuter ranged characters.
Good luck!
I have to know... what kind of monsters did these guys build? could we get some simple stats or full builds?
Josh-o-Lantern wrote: I have to know... what kind of monsters did these guys build? could we get some simple stats or full builds? https://burdensofthepast.obsidianportal.com/characters/ozig-1/edit
This is a level 1 human form lycanthrope template barbarian. He hasn't put his animal or humanoid form, but imagine extra natural attacks and +7 natural armor, with a growth to huge size. All at will.
The others haven't thrown down their sheets yet, but with how my campaign will go, they are also playing level 20 mythic 5 characters of the base level 1 characters. So it gets crazy.
Oh yeah... Forgot to mention ozig is wielding another pc that's A psychic large two handed weapon construct.
Adagna wrote: Charon's Little Helper wrote: Adagna wrote: A fine sized gun shouldn't be able to hurt anything except other fine sized creatures if even that IMO. The amount of gun powder is a fine sized fire arm would probably be equivalent to a crappy air gun. True IRL - but that's alo true of any weapons that a fine sized creature wielded IRL. That is true. Still as a GM I don't think I would allow firearms under small size via House Rule. Or if I did it would be like 1 in a million to find a gunsmith to fix, and or create one of that size. Or a one-in-one chance because a Gunslinger can make his own f!%#ing equipment starting at level 1.
Why would you let your characters build themselves into such high powere monstrosities and then worry about a gunslinger being too powerful?
What are you going to do if he just switches to druid or something?
Flame Effigy wrote: Why would you let your characters build themselves into such high powere monstrosities and then worry about a gunslinger being too powerful?
What are you going to do if he just switches to druid or something?
I've still got a few weeks to plan all this out, and so far the other players haven't been A problem in my campaign.
My biggest issue with the gunslinger is that he was so set on a kineticist that I didn't have a problem with his numbers. Then just a few days ago he throws out his ideas and swaps to gunslinger when I had a whole first chapter planned out with all of their power adjustments in place for what they had. I'd be much more content with a druid or other casting class as it fits what I have set out already.
Timothy Masters wrote: Flame Effigy wrote: Why would you let your characters build themselves into such high powere monstrosities and then worry about a gunslinger being too powerful?
What are you going to do if he just switches to druid or something?
I've still got a few weeks to plan all this out, and so far the other players haven't been A problem in my campaign.
My biggest issue with the gunslinger is that he was so set on a kineticist that I didn't have a problem with his numbers. Then just a few days ago he throws out his ideas and swaps to gunslinger when I had a whole first chapter planned out with all of their power adjustments in place for what they had. I'd be much more content with a druid or other casting class as it fits what I have set out already. That's understandable. Late-in-the-game switches like that can throw a monkey wrench into your plans.
Have any of the suggestions granted so far given you useful ideas?
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I am assuming you want a combat heavy game. In the absence of other data, how to challenge?
Investigative adventures.
Social challenges.
Puzzles.
Riddles.
Romance.
Politics.
Kingmakers.
Intrigue.
For the Gunslinger specifically, the other posters all had valid advice. There are many counters such as concealment (even Obscuring Mist at level 1) or a smokestick from ye olde alchemy shop. Or just being out of the line of sight. Bullets don't fly around corners. And how is he dealing with misfire? Misfire and he wasted this round and then next clearing the gun. Unless he wants to fire and risk losing his gun. And bullets/cartridges are way more $$$$ than a fistful of arrows. Dropping prone for +4 AC is free.
You were prepping for a kineticist...a ranged damage dealer with utility/control. Now you don't have to worry about utility or control (other than dead). So same tactics apply. As already mentioned, archers are more problematical than gunslingers in any case.
Maybe the villain likes to use innocents or tricks other heroes into fighting the PCs.
Alternatively there's always spells like Confusion. Depends on your group. Are they keen on PvP? Use illusions to mix things up even more.
Happy gaming!
Use a ninja gunslinger at him, no dex / touch is generally easy to hit.
How is this a problem at level 1?
A fine sized gunslinger will be doing what?
1d8->1d6->1d4->1d3->1d2 damage.
So he does 1 or 2 points of damage? And won't have any bonuses to that at 1st level other then maybe point blank shot. Most things will laugh at him.
Now, once the dex to damage kicks in, then it might be a decent number (along with deadly aim) ... but until he gets to level 5, he's not going to destroy anything.
To respond to the thread title:
Put a bullet in his head.
Seriously. Fight gunfire with gunfire. That should do the trick (just make sure YOUR gunslinger is higher level or more optimized).
I guarantee that will stop him cold. Literally.
DM_Blake wrote: ...Fight gunfire with gunfire. That should do the trick (just make sure YOUR gunslinger is higher level or more optimized)... Mmm, Colossal gunslinger. Sure, he doesn't hit often, but he only has to hit once.
Let me repeat some old advice of mine for the OP:
Lincoln Hills wrote: Absorbing touch, blade barrier, blink, blur, break, campfire wall, chill metal, cloak of winds, control winds, darkness, dimension door, dust of twilight, entropic shield, expeditious excavation, fog cloud, gaseous form, interposing hand, invisibility, mirror image, phase door, prayer, project image, protection from arrows, protection from good, pyrotechnics, rampart, repel metal or stone, resilient sphere, rusting grasp, shatter, shield of faith, shrink item, silent image, sleet storm, statue, teleport object, transmute metal to wood, unwilling shield, wall of thorns, warp wood, wind wall and all the spells similar to them present various ways for enemies to defend themselves or take the gun out of action. (Plus, of course, any direct attack, debuff, forced second roll, and any compulsion that forces the sniper into melee.)
Feat-wise, Deflect Arrows is specified as working (and therefore presumably the sword-and-board equivalent Missile Shield would as well). Shot on the Run or Spring Attack can be used to leap out of safe areas, strike and return before the sniper can shoot. Dirty trick, disarm, sunder and steal maneuvers (the latter against the ammo container) are all possibilities. The sniper needs personal space to do his thing, so Step Up and similar feats can be an unpleasant surprise. Minions with Bodyguard (or, if they're loyal enough to their boss, Harm's Way) can be useful to powerful foes.
And I'll add that a Fine creature has a terrible CMD, so enemies should disdain regular attacks in favor of grapples, disarms, etc.
EvilMinion wrote: How is this a problem at level 1?
A fine sized gunslinger will be doing what?
1d8->1d6->1d4->1d3->1d2 damage.
So he does 1 or 2 points of damage? And won't have any bonuses to that at 1st level other then maybe point blank shot. Most things will laugh at him.
Now, once the dex to damage kicks in, then it might be a decent number (along with deadly aim) ... but until he gets to level 5, he's not going to destroy anything.
He changed to medium size after seeing his damage output. So there's that.
Rerednaw wrote: I am assuming you want a combat heavy game. In the absence of other data, how to challenge?
Investigative adventures.
Social challenges.
Puzzles.
Riddles.
Romance.
Politics.
Kingmakers.
Intrigue.
For the Gunslinger specifically, the other posters all had valid advice. There are many counters such as concealment (even Obscuring Mist at level 1) or a smokestick from ye olde alchemy shop. Or just being out of the line of sight. Bullets don't fly around corners. And how is he dealing with misfire? Misfire and he wasted this round and then next clearing the gun. Unless he wants to fire and risk losing his gun. And bullets/cartridges are way more $$$$ than a fistful of arrows. Dropping prone for +4 AC is free.
You were prepping for a kineticist...a ranged damage dealer with utility/control. Now you don't have to worry about utility or control (other than dead). So same tactics apply. As already mentioned, archers are more problematical than gunslingers in any case.
Maybe the villain likes to use innocents or tricks other heroes into fighting the PCs.
Alternatively there's always spells like Confusion. Depends on your group. Are they keen on PvP? Use illusions to mix things up even more.
Happy gaming!
Combat isn't the only thing up my sleeve, I plan for this adventure to be EPIC and include puzzles, riddles, cinematics, and other things.
Obscuring mist - first level spell, perfectly valid for enemies to use - wrecks a gunslinger's day
depending on conditions - don't neglect light (or the absence of it)
as others have noted water (whether aquatic creatures or rain will also impact a gunslinger)
another simple set of tactics and encounter design is to have enough creatures that other things are happening even if the gunslinger focus fires each turn to kill something. Then introduce cover options for the enemies - or enough space and breaks in line of sight to make the gunslinger have to move (so no full attacks) - at low levels less meaningful but will matter a lot at higher levels). Cramped quarters are one approach but something as simple as a tavern with doors & windows and enemies coming in from the outside can also do it
for all ranged PC's especially at low levels but even at higher levels force them to track ammunition - even if they are crafting bullets they only have so many on hand at any given time - it can be easy to lose track but a gunslinger unlike an archer can't reuse bullets that miss. Also track carefully how they are pulling off free reloads - not sure how they are pulling that off at level 1 (using more expensive alchemical bullets makes tracking ammo even more important).
(at lower levels also don't forget all of the penalties - if he doesn't have the feats for it yet then keep track of both cover & firing into melee penalties there will be many cases where he gets both - sure he may be hitting against touch AC but a +8 effectively to that AC means a lot more misses)
It will be rough for everyone but you can (occasionally) use intangible foes (shadows for example) which can cause all kinds of problems for low level parties.
With a relatively small but likely OP PC party I would also suggest having somewhat more enemies in the typical encounter for action economy - and try to play your enemies smartly - with a HUGE PC in the party it will likely be pretty hard for the pc's to stealth (and many spaces will require that fighter to squeeze considerably). Kobolds will actually likely pose a pretty tough encounter - let them use a few traps, set up an ambush and use terrain to their advantage.
As others have noted lots of fairly simple maneuvers and spells which also slow down a gunslinger (steal vs ammo, disarm vs the gun - etc.) At low levels don't forget that enemies can use inexpensive alchemical weapons (thunderstones, tanglefoot bags etc). Combine these with either reach weapons or maneuverable foes and you gunslinger can be disarmed or otherwise taken out).
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote: This is news to me. When I'd seen talk of "optimization" up until now, it always sounded like people were talking about hyperspecialization - such as (but not limited to) the creeping dogma that took over World of Warcraft saying "you MUST specialize to be effective." You did have to hyperspecialize in World of Warcraft to be effective, because that's the way that game was designed. In Pathfinder it's the other way around, though a step back to look at the bigger picture may be required to see it. For example, why do people say that combat maneuver builds generally suck? It's because DCs are so high at mid-high levels that a character must hyperspecialize in order to reliably beat them.
Quote: I'm not so sure that's a valid comparison. We're making RPG characters, not airplanes. Why do you think the analogy is invalid? The difference in the degrees of complexity?
Quote: Don't say something is obvious when it's strictly untrue. I missed the part about OP specifying a character obsessed with damage, and my response was universal rather than tailored to the specifics of the OP's case, besides.
What ability scores did he not put good scores in?
What alternative racial features did he [not] select (admittedly, this one probably doesn't apply here)?
What Archetypes did he not choose?
What equipment did he not buy?
What skills did he not spend his skill points on?
What traits/feats did he not take?
All this is still based on the assumption that an optimized character is an overly specialized one.
Quote: I can understand that, but what bothers me is that in practice, it seems like there's this creeping groupthink effect that somehow turns it from helping individuals with ideas to broadcasting a kind of collective doctrine that winds up stultifying the idea pool and discouraging creative and independent thinking down the line by crowding out or even barking down dissonant voices. I say this because I and others have seen it. Some ideas just don't survive in the pool, and they die out on their own lack of merit: It's the result of a majority arriving at a consensus that reflects reality. The salt and the snark appear because it's the internet, and because people are tired of having to prove things over and over again to people with their heads firmly in the sand. It takes some really "creative" thinking (to put it one way) to make yourself believe, for example, that the CRB Rogue is perfectly fine.
What's an example of a creative and independent idea that you have seen removed from the idea pool, because it has been crowded out or barked down?
Quote: If you don't understand what I'm talking about, the least you can do is not be insulting. Crap like that does nothing to reduce my concerns. It's not insulting at all to say that the people you disagree with are cultists with a meme opinion. What else am I supposed to do with that crap, but dismiss it?
And I understood most of what you were saying, except in that part of your post, so spell it out for me. Do you believe it is conducive to good gaming to let people go on clinging to fallacies, or insisting that a problem doesn't exist when it does? Is that a valid way for people to avoid "stultifying their imaginations and sundry other faculties"?
Unless OP is allowing advanced firearms how is a gunslinger even a threat? Double weapons were heavily nerfed which was like the only benefit they had. You're almost always better off going with savage technologist or something over gunslinger now, or at the very least dropping the class once you hit lvl 5 and gain the dex to damage. Be happy he's playing a terrible class like gunslinger and not a druid, wizard, or arcanist.
I will however thoroughly jump on the "WTF were you thinking?" bandwagon of just how powerful you are letting these characters start. You're gonna have a lot more problems because anything you think of to counter one player is just going to feel like you're giving them a big "f&%& you" rather than a challenge.
The gunslinger is fine sized? That's a strange race to allow. Still, his weapons can't do much damage. Use displacement and damage reduction, and hit him with an area effects
Not so sure what the game is, but a huge lycanthrope just equals NPC. No way it can group with anyone or even get into most buildings. Any guard will be dropping him as soon as he shifts. Did you give them unlimited cash too? Can only assume as much with the ACs that high. Looking at what you let them make, within three or four games you will be done. Nothing can even hit these guys and that will only get worse. Not sure any GM would have fun with this group unless it was for a one shot called "When we were Gods". Good luck.
jimibones83 wrote: The gunslinger is fine sized? That's a strange race to allow. Still, his weapons can't do much damage. Use displacement and damage reduction, and hit him with an area effects Nope. It's been stated 3-4 times over the course of the thread, the gunslinger upgraded to being medium.
Well "Upgraded" is a relative term. The GM in question keeps saying it as though he went to a larger size to get better damage...which is silly for a Gunslinger. A Fine sized character has a +8 Dex over a Medium one.
1d1+4 >= 1d8 Consistent 5 damage vs average 4.5 damage, potentially higher or lower.
But, better for the character as a whole, yes. Better non-AC defenses, doesn't have to worry about custom made gear or having too low a Str to function.
Consider my firearm/gunslinger rework. They still do tons of damage, but no more misfires and touch attacks should make guns more fun for both you and your player.
Combat Monster wrote: jimibones83 wrote: The gunslinger is fine sized? That's a strange race to allow. Still, his weapons can't do much damage. Use displacement and damage reduction, and hit him with an area effects Nope. It's been stated 3-4 times over the course of the thread, the gunslinger upgraded to being medium. I'm not going to come in and read 70 something comments.
Still, displacement is sound advice.
Maybe some shadows. Fine does not go with high str mod. Gunslingers do not have very high strength either. Probably the only person who could pop a magical weapon on the fly would be the magus.
Athaleon wrote: I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote: It's true, I probably don't understand what "optimization" means - but what could it mean if not some kind of hyperspecialization? It means creating the most powerful character given a certain set of circumstances, "power" being a shorthand for "good at a lot of things". What are the perennial complaints you see regarding the relative power of different options (classes, skills, feats, etc.)? In just about every case, the argument boils down to versatility. The powerful options are versatile and the weak ones are not. I'd just like to adress this point specifically.
That's not actually what we see here on the boards.
There are far more cries of 'help, my gunslinger is wrecking the monsters' or 'How can I provide a challenge for the barbarian' than we see 'Oh my god, the wizard is running away with the campaign, what can I do to stop him?'.
In any case, OP, your answer is magic.
It may feel dirty to you, and it probably is, but make everything a spellcaster. This will give you a tonne of options.
Your gunslinger's weakest save is probably willpower, so exploit that. He only has 1 hd, so a color spray or sleep knocks him out cold. Color spray functions until he hits level 2, sleep works all the way up until level 4.
For defenses, wind wall and protection from arrows are both good.
An alternative is making him face longdistance encounters - pistols have a touch-range of 20 ft only, so he'll have to move around, at the very least.
Here's an Adept, CR 1/3, that you can toss into every encounter from now on.
Dread Cultist, CR 1/3 (135xp)
NE Human Adept 1
Init +5, Perception +2
HP 5/5 (1d6+2)
AC 13, T 11, FF 12, CMD 11
Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +3
Offense
30ft movement
Magic
0 - Daze (DC 13), Light
1 - Sleep, Sleep (DC 14, 1 round)
Stats: Str 10, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 15, Cha 8
Skills: Knowledge(religion) +3, Perception +3
Feats: Improved Initiative, Spell Focus(Enchantment)
Gear: Leather Armor, holy symbol of whatever
They'll probably die as soon as someone hits them, and that's okay - their only goal in life is to tag the low-will characters with Sleep, so that the cultist's allies can safely deal with the rest of the party. An alternative route of attack is to Sleep the werebear, and have the big melee allies charge the gunslinger while he's not protected.
Ghosts dont care about touch attachs, however him beign a gunslinger is not your real problem
Tower Shield is really good, as a standard action you can give cover against range attacks on one side. If you have a wall near you and position right, you get total cover so that gunslinger can't even attack you nor other units behind you. Now you can get rest of your unit ready action and attack when the gunslinger moved into line of sight. Just get a really low CR minion to do it. Won't make the encounter too hard, but much harder for the gun slinger.
alexd1976 wrote: Timothy Masters wrote: Josh-o-Lantern wrote: How is he even firing this thing?! Wouldn't the grain of powder in a fine sized gun be as wide as the barrel?! He changed to medium size after noticing he only gets his damage from his dex bonus, making things a bit more tough for me. But a lot of this advice is helpful.
alexd1976 wrote: I would argue the easiest way to balance out (or 'counter') the gunslinger is to simply increase the level of the challenges they are all facing.
Have more creatures in each fight, make them able to survive a single hit (or more) so that he isn't just machine-gunning them to death every hit.
STRICTLY enforce ammunition rules, they are there for a reason! The faster he fires, the more money he spends.
Environment can neuter gunslingers completely. Immersion in water renders the weapon useless until cleaned and reloaded...
You don't have to 'nerf' his class, this is a high powered game, just increase the difficulty to a level you are all comfortable with.
Sounds super fun btw, good to see a GM who isn't afraid to let the players make crazy characters.
I would have gone Half-Dragon, if it were allowed. :D
Slowly working around him, but he did take half dragon. Oh the irony! But I enjoy a challenge Also, blocking his line of sight/using cover/concealment can go a LONG way.
Ethereal foes...
Rain.
There are a series of spells designed to nerf gunslingers as well (check out Ultimate Combat).
Something as simple as natural fog can seriously neuter ranged characters.
Good luck! Craft the occaisional challenge where their usual tool boxes are not the right ones for the job.
A combat unit of orcs that all have Scent, trained together to all have Blind Fighting, and have an Eversmoking Bottle issued to them.
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