My perverse inner GM wants to suggest with the following:
Player: "I wish to be a Silver Dragon"
"You feel power surge through you as your new capabilities become apparent. Your heart pounds so fast it feels like it is going to burst... and then it does. You're now a dead Silver Dragon."
A lot of things on this thread have hit on pruning and changing, when the wish-wording has not been mentioned.
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My perverse inner GM wants to suggest with the following:Player: "I wish to be a Silver Dragon"
"You feel power surge through you as your new capabilities become apparent. Your heart pounds so fast it feels like it is going to burst... and then it does. You're now a dead Silver Dragon."
A lot of things on this thread have hit on pruning and changing, when the wish-wording has not been mentioned.
That's just cruel and pointless.
And impractical.
(not just to the quoted poster, but to everybody)
If you're going to screw with a wish, then treat it like it's some kind of energy (magical energy) and like all forms of energy, it automatically tends to do the LEAST possible amount of work, the exact barest minimum to achieve whatever it must achieve.
If transforming the caster into a silver dragon takes X energy, and killing him takes Y energy (and Y > 0), then transforming him into a dead silver dragon takes X+Y energy. That's clearly MORE than X, therefore, it requires MORE work to do it, so that's NOT what the energy would do.
If transforming him into a silver dragon takes X energy, and transforming him into a smaller/younger silver dragon takes Z energy (and Z < X), then that might be what the magical energy would do, because it fulfills the requirements and uses LESS energy.
Conservation.
It's the key to understanding all energy in the universe.
And it's the key to perverting a wish. If you must. Which you really mustn't. But some of you think you must, so, yeah. Conservation.
Why?
Because after you're done giggling with glee and foaming at the mouth over how cleverly you screwed your player, you have an excuse. Make the Wish do MORE, and it's clearly just a vicious GM. Make the Wish doe LESS, and you can blame Conservation of Energy. You can even argue it like a physics lawyer, and your players will praise you for your ingenuity and agree that you had no choice in the matter - energy must be conserved. You get to be a sadist AND look like a genius. Win/Win!
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That's just cruel and pointless.And impractical.
If you're going to screw with a wish, then treat it like it's some kind of energy (magical energy) and like all forms of energy, it automatically tends to do the LEAST possible amount of work, the exact barest minimum to achieve whatever it must achieve.
If transforming the caster into a silver dragon takes X energy, and killing him takes Y energy (and Y > 0), then transforming him into a dead silver dragon takes X+Y energy. That's clearly MORE than X, therefore, it requires MORE work to do it, so that's NOT what the energy would do.
If transforming him into a silver dragon takes X energy, and transforming him into a smaller/younger silver dragon takes Z energy (and Z < X), then that might be what the magical energy would do, because it fulfills the requirements and uses LESS energy.
Conservation.
It's the key to understanding all energy in the universe.
And it's the key to perverting a wish. If you must. Which you really mustn't. But some of you think you must, so, yeah. Conservation.
Why?
Because after you're done giggling with glee and foaming at the mouth over how cleverly you screwed your player, you have an excuse. Make the Wish do MORE, and it's clearly just a vicious GM. Make the Wish doe LESS, and you can blame Conservation of Energy. You can even argue it like a physics lawyer, and your players will praise you for your ingenuity and agree that you had no choice in the matter - energy must be conserved. You get to be a sadist AND look like a genius. Win/Win!
Ah, but you're doing math and in-depth extrapolation and careful consideration.
For your math, I'd suggest that making someone into a *live* silver dragon takes more power -- bigger body, bigger power, bigger everything (see all concerns above about play balance) -- and the human body and power just couldn't 'stretch' to cover the whole deal. So the magic tries to do *exactly* what it's told to do... but the wishing party is overdrawn at the magic bank during the process and the foreclosure process sucks.
I was doing 'shoot from the hip someone tried dropping that on me at the table to trip me up as a GM and this is a quick response.'
EDIT: I note that was my perverse inner GM. Who is currently in Gulag after trying to be 'creative' with a player who didn't appreciate such creativity.
ie, I've gotten quite a bit better. I'd probably call for a side-session if possible beforehand with the player to discuss how to balance it fairly (in terms of mechanics) to the rest of the party, then introduce political or social ramifications that would be indirectly related to the situation as a result of the wish.
TANSTAAFL.
How about turning them into statue of a dragon, made of silver?
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I've always been bothered by the idea that GM would subvert a simple wish (even if that wish was "over the limit" of what the spell can do). I've always been of the opinion that you should simply tell the player, "No the spell can't do that, and if you want your character to do that in game it's not going to work the way they would want it to." There is no need for me as a GM to be a jerk and try to subvert their desires cleverly. Just be honest that it doesn't line up with your expectations of the spells power or that you consider the effect to most likely be unbalancing.
I've always been bothered by the idea that GM would subvert a simple wish (even if that wish was "over the limit" of what the spell can do). I've always been of the opinion that you should simply tell the player, "No the spell can't do that, and if you want your character to do that in game it's not going to work the way they would want it to." There is no need for me as a GM to be a jerk and try to subvert their desires cleverly. Just be honest that it doesn't line up with your expectations of the spells power or that you consider the effect to most likely be unbalancing.
That's probably the healthiest response.
We have (over the years) played with the same group, and discussed Wish enough to have a good idea of what it can, and cannot do.
I usually have players write down the actual words, and try to be fair about it.
The more they exceed the established boundaries, the more likely something goes wrong... but I will usually give them a warning.
One. Warning... If they insist on doing it as written...
I usually take time between sessions to decide. Fairness applies to both players AND GMs. Don't try to break my game, and I won't break your character. :D
Permanently becoming a dragon?
I would probably not allow it.
If you decide to...
Hatchling. Stats per the book. Bye-bye spellcasting above level 4 spells.
Wish is good, but it isn't intended to be THAT good.
If he wants to argue the point, see Umbral Reaver's post above.
I normally let players have what they wish for, but in this instance....that sounds about right.
Depending on how old the Caster is, it might actually be around the right age as well.
Afterall, if they change into a Silver dragon...wouldn't their age stay around the same as well.
Of course if they've been around for a VERY long time, I guess they could be an older dragon type.
So....17th level wizard wants to wish himself a silver dragon?
Assuming you are comfortable with this precedent...let him. At best he's what, adult? That is CR 17.He's losing all his class abilities...so if he wants to become a tank and a 7th level sorceror, while every other PC keeps their 9th level spells, fine.
Now if you are allowing full dragon abilities and keeping his wizard class, that is definitely beyond a normal power level.
And why doesn't every villain do something similar? AND wish for maximized hp?
I could live with letting him get that as well probably.
Easy:
And this is what I would legitimately do.
Let him change all of his HD to d12s.
Give him the BAB of a fighter of the same level.
Increase his saves to all be good.
Give him Darkvision 60 feet, and low-light vision
Give him immunity to Magic sleep and paralysis.
That is all within the Dragon Creature Type.
Finally, I'd let him spontaneously change the damage of any spell he casts into the type proper for silver dragons, which is cold. I would also give him Wings as appropriate for a Draconic Sorcerer. (Fly 60 feet, average maneuverability.)
Now, I might require an extra wish for a breath weapon. But that's what I'd do. Nothing else changes. He doesn't grow in size, he doesn't age, he doesn't lose class levels. But I would make him roll those 17x d12s, however. No taking the average.
Easy:
And this is what I would legitimately do.
Let him change all of his HD to d12s.
Give him the BAB of a fighter of the same level.
Increase his saves to all be good.Give him Darkvision 60 feet, and low-light vision
Give him immunity to Magic sleep and paralysis.That is all within the Dragon Creature Type.
Finally, I'd let him spontaneously change the damage of any spell he casts into the type proper for silver dragons, which is cold. I would also give him Wings as appropriate for a Draconic Sorcerer. (Fly 60 feet, average maneuverability.)
Now, I might require an extra wish for a breath weapon. But that's what I'd do. Nothing else changes. He doesn't grow in size, he doesn't age, he doesn't lose class levels. But I would make him roll those 17x d12s, however. No taking the average.
That is very overpowered compared to what a normal Wish is supposed to do. +1 Constitution is the standard - not +50 hit points and big save boosts and permanent flight and darkvision and so on.
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Thank you all for all your advice.
What I think I am going to do, given how late in the game we are and what that party is capable of right now(18 Lv + party), is let him do cast his wish and have him become a very young silver dragon keeping his wizard levels.
The His con and str will get a boost, but he was rolling 1's and 2's each level so I'm not to worried.
The campaign we are running is almost over and I think it will be a fun spite of the character, but not “kill him off”.
I will just be altering the final encounters of the last part of the campaign.
I will also be having him roll fortitude saves to stay in “human” form to say or become a dragon again, with increasing difficulty depending on situational context.
I'd turn him into a wyrmling of the same age as the character with no breath weapon or natural dragon abilities of any sort.
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I will also be having him roll fortitude saves to stay in “human” form to say or become a dragon again, with increasing difficulty depending on situational context.
This is a fun idea.
Add a twist, since this guy is STILL getting way more than one wish should likely be able to do.
I suggest that, in his new form, he's not good at speaking with his forked tongue, sharp teeth, scaly lips. He bites his tongue when he pronounces dental consonants, slurs his similants, and his forked tongue give him double consonants when he tries labials or palatals. Give him the same spell failure chance as being deaf: 20% chance to screw up any spell with verbal components.
Now he has a choice: stay in dragon form and risk spell failure, or try to stay in human form with those saving throws (make sure the DC is high enough that he cannot simply auto-save, don't forget his new CON modifier).
A wish with a twist, but he's still ridiculously strong and now he has consequential choices.
I will also be having him roll fortitude saves to stay in “human” form to say or become a dragon again, with increasing difficulty depending on situational context.This is a fun idea.
Add a twist, since this guy is STILL getting way more than one wish should likely be able to do.
I suggest that, in his new form, he's not good at speaking with his forked tongue, sharp teeth, scaly lips. He bites his tongue when he pronounces dental consonants, slurs his similants, and his forked tongue give him double consonants when he tries labials or palatals. Give him the same spell failure chance as being deaf: 20% chance to screw up any spell with verbal components.
Now he has a choice: stay in dragon form and risk spell failure, or try to stay in human form with those saving throws (make sure the DC is high enough that he cannot simply auto-save, don't forget his new CON modifier).
A wish with a twist, but he's still ridiculously strong and now he has consequential choices.
I like it!
Of course he can, wish can do anything.
However, being something outside of the "safe" side of wish, the result is not a dure thing, and potentially dangerous
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I would not allow it, it could be total broken in a matter of seconds, with the level of play you are at. if you allow the next thing will be scroll of greater demi plane and ring of substance, in a timeless or accelerated time frame. he pops out the plane once he has achieved Great Wyrm status and no time has passed to the pcs.
That's a good point.
If I were the GM, this would almost certainly result in a TPK.
"How so?" you ask, aghast.
Quite simply.
I operate on a basic principle with all my players. A social contract, if you will. It goes like this: "You (the player) don't try to break my game and I (the GM) won't try to break it the other way."
Once a PC does this, and wishes himself into a baby silver dragon, then Timeless Greater Demiplanes himself into a great wyrm silver dragon with all the class features of an 18th level wizard, he has broken my game. He has broken his social contract with me. That means I am now free to break it the other way.
Of course, a group of 18th level PCs are more famous than the Kardashians, and their 18th level (or more likely 20th+ level) arch nemesis super villain is watching them like a good super villain should. He will see this tactic and decide to apply it himself. A few DOZEN wishes, one greater demiplane, and the PCs next encounter will be with said super villain, now a great wyrm red dragon, and his dozens of other great wryms, arch-demons, tarrasques, and whatever else he wants to wish his top-level minions into - and all of them have their class levels too.
It will be a one round fight with the PC's totally TPK'd.
Hey, if the PCs can do it, so can the bad guys, and they have more minions, more resources, and more plot armor.
I win.
(no, I don't advocate this style of GMing, if it can even be called a style at all, but I do think it's a fair response to players trying to break the game - they need to be reminded that GMs can break the game just as easily and a whole order of magnitude more effectively)
I know it is tradition to screw with players using Wish, but having played a number of other RPGs that are more flexible in what they allow I'd say let it work.
In this case the down side is that the Wizard in question is likely to never level up again due to the massive Level Adjustment. You might add a degree of balance by swapping out Wizard levels to match the number of Sorcerer levels of spell casting ability a Dragon has, or just say he traded the natural spell casting ability of a Dragon for his own talents as a Wizard. The only real question is what age do you make the Dragon. I'd be inclined to say same Age as the caster, be a Reincarnation argument could see a new hatchling Dragon.
Unfortunately, sounds like it's too late for this PC to go Dragon Disciple . . . .
I would not allow it, it could be total broken in a matter of seconds, with the level of play you are at. if you allow the next thing will be scroll of greater demi plane and ring of substance, in a timeless or accelerated time frame. he pops out the plane once he has achieved Great Wyrm status and no time has passed to the pcs.
As I understand it, a timeless demi plane works like this:
A human enters a timeless demi-plane in the year 1500. He lives on the plane for 500 years without aging. He leaves the plane. It is now the year 2000. He suddenly ages 500 years.And accelerated-time-frame ones are restricted to moderate speed increases.
While you could age up to an Ancient Wyrm like that, you'd be back too late to save the world from whatever evil you were supposed to be fighting.
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I have a higher lv party and our wizard just learned the wish spell, and wants to wish himself into a true (silver) dragon. His rational for this is that, asper per the reincarnation spell; you can wish to can your race back to your true race. So why can’t you wish yourself to another race. The party has the money to do it, and they are all on board.
Thoughts?
I'd say go for it, with of course his character age factored into dragon age. Unless he specifies that he wishes to be a dragon in Golarian, or wherever your campaign is, he becomes a silver dragon located on a random plane/world decided by a roll of the dice...followed by a roll for a random encounter on that plane/world.
are you sure you want to become a silver dragon.
why yes that is what i wished for!
fine....
player turns into a inanimate silver dragon statue that has his mind trapped inside.
Ahhhh, another vicious GM who uses Wish as a tool to torment his players.
As a vicious tarrasque, I appreciate your desire to play with your food. I do too, except when I'm famished (which I am pretty much all the time). But as a GM, I cannot help but decry this behavior as unnecessarily cruel and unfair.
Please stop using wishes as a torture device. Players should be ecstatic when their character gets a marvelous wish, not terrified to use it because they're sure it's just their cruel GM setting a trap.
yes your wish works but you will not become a silver dragon until die from old age.
You just caught yourself in your own trap:
GM: Yes, your wish works, but you won't become a silver dragon until you die of old age.
Player: Awesome, where did I put that scroll of Create Greater Demiplane? I'll whip a time-flowing plane, be back in a few minutes, die of old age, and become a silver dragon. Easy Peasy.
as stated in the flowing time section 1 year could = 6 seconds or 2rds. So dragon could be in their for 1200 years and only 200 seconds go by in the real world. either way it is not a good idea to let it happen.
Create Greater Demiplane restricts flowing time to "half or double normal time". They didn't want to allow infinite crafting, etc.
I rembember once we got 3 wishes from a efreeti in AD&D 2nd ed. When we heard about it, I told the Efreet:
"Wait a momment!" while we argueed what to ask.
"Granted", told me the Efreet.
:).
Cleverest way to roleplay the " beware with your wishes" aspect, without sxrewing the players that I've seen
The other 2 wishes, however, worked well.
I think Wish should be what it used to be, a Wish. But it should not be in the Wizard spell list, accesible to every body with enough level, to cast it daily
My Perverse Inner GM sent a postcard from Gulag.
"What if *nothing appears to happen*? ie, the wising person thinks they're a silver dragon already, so they use the Wish and... nothing changes physically? If anything does change, it's a subtle mental reinforcement of the fact that they think they're a silver dragon, albeit trapped in a humanoid frame?"
The idea of turning the entire campaign into a draconic one is kind of amusing, though. All the characters become different dragon types, and act as if nothing has changed for them. 'New Dragon' is probably going to get odd stares and the rest of the dragons are probably going to think the 'new arrival' has some sort of 'condition'....
Having the wish act like a form of the dragon spell is the safest, most conservative result of the spell.
Anything more is GM fiat. I'm not saying it can't be done, yet most GMs would spin this harder than a Twilight Zone moral lesson. Even if it does succeed, the campaign might not be built for a full adult dragon PC in the party, so the GM is fully in their right to ask the player to retire the new dragon character.
If the GM is really creative and generous, the whole party could become dragons with class levels. That is quite over the top, yet would be very fun for a short period if all the players are on board with it.
What mechanic puts resurrection, heal, etc... on the wizard spell list again? Maybe you are in a campaign which uses Schrodinger's Scroll, but I'm not.
Spell Sage Wizard or a Samsaran than takes spells from the Witch list are the first that come to mind.
But anyways with the sheer variety of spells a wizard can access it can already do almost anything without wish. Planar Binding and Gate are nifty
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I'd say this falls under the "nonstandard, dangerous effects" clause myself, so if the wish was worded well, I'd give the player a permanent version of form of the dragon III. If the wish was worded poorly (including "too well"), I'd do the whole, "you're a dragon of your comparable age and alignment" thing, so gold if you're Lawful Good, brass if you're Chaotic Good, and so on. If you specifically named a dragon, your alignment changes. Also, you'd be a dragon of your current age (in years), so since most of my players like to play late 20s, early 30s characters, most likely a juvenile dragon. (Although I could also see completely restarting the character within the egg for a particularly badly-worded wish....)
I have the advantage of this resource. Not strictly designed as PCs, they are a little strong, but at the level you get wish, not that much of an issue. The player might balk at being small, but there are options to change that.
There are many other options that make this an achievable goal.
Have you played True Dragons of Absalom, OP?
"I wish to be a True Dragon!"
The world around you darkens as you feel the magic taking affect, and everything suddenly goes black. You feel a strange warm sensation, and pressure all around you. Well, roll up a new character. First you need to get pushed out of her in Egg form, then there is the time in the egg, then being born....
Why is everyone so bothered by this when you can just give them the effect of a polymorph any object spell to make them into a dragon of the same size?
Same kingdom - +5 to duration.
Same size- +2 to duration.
Same or lower intellegnce (he's a wizard. His int will be massive.)- +2 to duration.
Total of +9, creating a permananet change, save it can be dispelled.
If they player wants to keep it, invest in a ring of counterspell (dispel magic).
The only problem is that it can't make precious metal dragons- you'd have to be chromatic.
There is another way, and it's a neat little abuse of three spells.
Flesh to stone, stone shape, and stone to flesh.
Flesh to stone someone, have somone stone shape this person into a dragon (i would require a massive heal check to get the anatomy right), then turn them back with stone to flesh-
The new form has all "deformities" of the shaped stone, making you, physically at lest, into a dragon. No SU abilities, but a claw-claw-bite, and the ability to play something diffrent.
I would make such a wish the final quest of your character's campaign.
Someone pointed out that the wish is asking for the equivalent of a ton of money - all the money that could buy objects granting dragon-equivalent power.
Fine then: I would combine such thoughts with the following:
When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 25,000 gp diamond component for this spell).
And tell the player that for his wish to work, he needs to provide rare, expensive magic material to fuel the spell. The value of such materials will roughly be the value of all those items which combined will grant him a comparable power.
They will be unique magic items, perhaps artifacts to be sacrificed (possibly irritating some powerful devils/angels/deities, as per artifacts destroying rules), perhaps items owned by powerful creatures which won't agree to give up them.Plus a good ton of money, diamonds, and so on.
Provided that this can fit in your current setting, it could lead to some really exciting adventures to put together all what is needed for the spell to work. And of course, the PC will have to bargain with his companions, since he will need their help to gather all this stuff ... :)
Thank you all for all your advice.
What I think I am going to do, given how late in the game we are and what that party is capable of right now(18 Lv + party), is let him do cast his wish and have him become a very young silver dragon keeping his wizard levels.
The His con and str will get a boost, but he was rolling 1's and 2's each level so I'm not to worried.
The campaign we are running is almost over and I think it will be a fun spite of the character, but not “kill him off”.
I will just be altering the final encounters of the last part of the campaign.
I will also be having him roll fortitude saves to stay in “human” form to say or become a dragon again, with increasing difficulty depending on situational context.
If you follow through with this, what is stopping him from casting it again, and turning other player characters into dragons as well? Precedent is a dangerous thing.
That being said, I largely agree with Tjaeden in that it's not likely to mean much so late in the game.