Can a Wizard wish himself to a true dragon?


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I have a higher lv party and our wizard just learned the wish spell, and wants to wish himself into a true (silver) dragon. His rational for this is that, asper per the reincarnation spell; you can wish to can your race back to your true race. So why can’t you wish yourself to another race. The party has the money to do it, and they are all on board.

Thoughts?


Wish can mimic a spell one level lower, such as Form of the Dragon III.


I'd let him pick another race on the reincarnate chart. However, a true dragon is much much more powerful. At MOST (if you're feeling super generous) i'd let him have a permanent Form of the Dragon III spell running. With all of the pro's and cons of that.

Note: the caster shouldn't be able to turn it on and off, but it could be dispelled.


Permanently becoming a dragon?

I would probably not allow it.

If you decide to...

Hatchling. Stats per the book. Bye-bye spellcasting above level 4 spells.

Wish is good, but it isn't intended to be THAT good.

If he wants to argue the point, see Umbral Reaver's post above.


It's not about rational, you can justify almost anything. It's about power scale. So decide if you are comfortable with the level of power that being a silver dragon permanently will grant the player (which first requires you to determine what age category he would become). If you are comfortable with this player having that level of power and so are the other players than go for it, if not then don't do it. I would say no but a fun compromise might be getting form of the dragon 3 1/day as a spell like ability.


If I allowed this (and the if would depend a lot on the player, story, other party members, etc.) I would make it work like a permanent Form of the Dragon spell and that already will be boosting the wizard's power; if he is trying to actually change his race to dragon and add all of his wizard levels then he is going to be vastly overpowered compared to his companions.

Just my two copper pieces.

Dark Archive

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You can wish for anything you want. It's the DM's choice on what actually happens, and poorly worded wishes can lead to all kinds of trouble. In all honestly the thing your asking for is much more powerful than the terms the spell lays out, and only a really foolish GM would grant it. You could end up an egg, and without your memories of who you were.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tom Marlow wrote:

I have a higher lv party and our wizard just learned the wish spell, and wants to wish himself into a true (silver) dragon. His rational for this is that, asper per the reincarnation spell; you can wish to can your race back to your true race. So why can’t you wish yourself to another race. The party has the money to do it, and they are all on board.

Thoughts?

I'll either deny this wish outright... or give in to my inner sadistic DM.


I might let him have a permanent form of the dragon I, which is basically using Polymorph Any Object to use FoD1. Normally PAO would only last 1 week for FoD1, but since you're using Wish I'd let it be permanent (but able to be dispelled).

*Polymorph Any Object works like Greater Polymorph when used to effectively emulate an already existing spell. Greater Polymorph limits you to Form of the Dragon 1. However, the caveat of PAO is that the duration is set by PAO instead of FoD1 or Greater Polymorph. This would normally be 1 week. But, since he's expending a wish spell, I would grant him a permanent duration of FoD1.

Also, your players reincarnate argument doesn't hold water. Dragons are not on the reincarnate list for humanoids. If he wanted to transform himself to any of the humanoids on the list of reincarnate by using a wish I would certainly allow that, butdragons aren't on the table.


The idea of turning into an egg to grow as a dragon makes sense to me, and actually sounds like a neat backstory for a potential NPC. I'd imagine them slowly regaining their arcane power as they grow, too.

Doesn't really work for a PC though, and I'd talk it over with the player before just deciding that, to avoid hurt feelings.

Edit: a 1/day Form of Dragon spell and an appropriate and interesting compromise.


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Tom Marlow wrote:

I have a higher lv party and our wizard just learned the wish spell, and wants to wish himself into a true (silver) dragon. His rational for this is that, asper per the reincarnation spell; you can wish to can your race back to your true race. So why can’t you wish yourself to another race. The party has the money to do it, and they are all on board.

Thoughts?

I'd allow it, but remember, wish spells are designed to screw the player over if they try one of the non-listed things.

So here is what you do.

"I wish to be a Silver Dragon!"

"You find yourself in darkness and are quite confused, you are surrounded by something hard."

"I try to push my way out!"

"You scrabble and scratch and peck and finally break free as sweet air flows into your nostrils. Light sprays in and momentarily blinds you. You pull yourself free and see your companions... They are huge... You try to talk but all that comes out is a squeak... Congratulations, you are a baby silver dragon... In a few centuries you might be able to adventure again."


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If you want permanent dragonitude, Psychic with Greater Mindswap is the only way to do it by the book. I would not allow Wish to duplicate something that can otherwise only be done by another class's unique ninth level spell. The permanent FoD1 sounds about right, since it would otherwise be a spell per week. If dispelled by something less than Wish/Miracle, I'd have it return in 1d4 days.


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Take the wizard's age, figure out the appropriate age category for a dragon of the same age, work out a level adjustment, and take an appropriate number of levels away. (The typical rule is CR = level, but dragons are pretty strong, so I'd go off of hit dice instead.) Assuming someone in the 26-50 age category, that's a juvenile dragon, and if silver, that's 13 hit dice. So the wizard loses 13 levels, but is now a juvenile silver dragon, with all of the abilities, stat adjustments, etc.


The Council of Worms D&D setting had some rules for player character dragons. if you're feeling inclined to let the player do this, you should probably cap the dragon's age at the CR of the party, and remove their class-level based spellcasting. they would get the sorcerer level spellcasting of the dragon instead.

The Exchange

Tom Marlow wrote:

I have a higher lv party and our wizard just learned the wish spell, and wants to wish himself into a true (silver) dragon...

Thoughts?

Yeah, my thought is "don't let this guy see the page of the Bestiary labelled 'Tarrasque'."

But seriously: the wish spell itself clearly allows someone to 'simulate' form of the dragon - in other words, the spell is already stated to grant temporary transformations, which means permanent transformations are outside its power (otherwise they'd be listed as options). I'm the sort of GM who likes a good laugh, so I probably wouldn't reveal that the new form was temporary until the duration ran out - but you're probably not that mean.

If he insists on citing the reincarnate spell, point out that in that case all the wish is actually doing is restoring an old reality, not making up something totally new. The cases may appear similar, but the amount of power really isn't.


Doesnotcare wrote:
Take the wizard's age, figure out the appropriate age category for a dragon of the same age, work out a level adjustment, and take an appropriate number of levels away. (The typical rule is CR = level, but dragons are pretty strong, so I'd go off of hit dice instead.) Assuming someone in the 26-50 age category, that's a juvenile dragon, and if silver, that's 13 hit dice. So the wizard loses 13 levels, but is now a juvenile silver dragon, with all of the abilities, stat adjustments, etc.

Having played lots of monsters, CR as level actually works...


Legacy of Fire also includes some interesting rules on the abuse of wishcraft that could factor in if something like this were granted.

I could allow it if the PC restricted the wish to make sense (hatching, very young, etc.), but remember that most of your cool toys are no longer usable in your base form, you've made yourself a target for dragon hunters everywhere, bye bye wizard class levels, etc.

Not carefully worded, this one is rife for GM amusement.

Perhaps a more realistic wish would be one that grants Form of the Dragon III x/day as spell-like ability or something like that.


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HWalsh wrote:
remember, wish spells are designed to screw the player over if they try one of the non-listed things.

No, they're not. Not at all.

For the OP, consider the game balance. What will the PC who casts this wish gain? More AC, spell resistance, better STR, better CON, more HP, resistance to some elements, better vision, other senses, natural flight, a breath weapon, other SLAs, etc.

That list might be fairly small if he wants to become a small (young) dragon. Or it might be very big if he wants to be a bigger, older dragon.

Now think about this. What would it cost to buy magic items that could do all the things on that list? Make the list of abilities the PC would gain and then find magic items for each of those abilities, write down the price of those magic items, then add them up. Do they cost more than the material component of the Wish spell? Do they cost more than ANYTHING else the Wish spell could produce (based on the list of things Wish can normally do)?

Yes. Way more. Many times more. An order of magnitude more.

And the final question is, do you think this is a good, fair, balanced use of Wish? Trading 25,000gp for a huge, huge increase in personal power that would have cost 10 or 20x that much gold if he bought magic items instead. Does that seem balanced?

I bet the answer is "no". It's certainly "no" when I answer it for myself, but your idea of game balance may differ from mine.

What I would do to allow this and not screw the player over is to figure out that actual cost for all those items and then divide that cost by 25,000 to determine the number of times he will need to cast Wish to complete the transformation. The I would tell him that one Wish spell cannot transform him completely and it will require multiple wishes (whatever the number I came up with). Each wish will get him a few of those changes and make him look a little more like the dragon he'll eventually become. It's up to him to decide just how quickly he casts all the wishes he needs - maybe he can cast a couple wishes a day and he has lots of cash lying around for all those material components, so he might be a dragon in a week (less if he picked a very young age).

Doing this means the PC will actually PAY a fair and balanced amount of resources to gain the awesome power of dragons. That would make it a balanced, fair, and definitely not screw-the-player solution that won't break your game balance.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Claxon wrote:


Also, your players reincarnate argument doesn't hold water. Dragons are not on the reincarnate list for humanoids. If he wanted to transform himself to any of the humanoids on the list of reincarnate by using a wish I would certainly allow that, butdragons aren't on the table.

I believe the player's argument is that he's a dragon reincarnated into a Human.


alexd1976 wrote:
Doesnotcare wrote:
Take the wizard's age, figure out the appropriate age category for a dragon of the same age, work out a level adjustment, and take an appropriate number of levels away. (The typical rule is CR = level, but dragons are pretty strong, so I'd go off of hit dice instead.) Assuming someone in the 26-50 age category, that's a juvenile dragon, and if silver, that's 13 hit dice. So the wizard loses 13 levels, but is now a juvenile silver dragon, with all of the abilities, stat adjustments, etc.
Having played lots of monsters, CR as level actually works...

Yes, it generally works quite well, and honestly the wizard is going to end up wanting to either undo the wish or retrain levels, because wizard is a terrible class for dragons to take, but a true dragon in the hands of a player is quite ridiculously strong if abused. As long as the player intends to remain a caster (likely by retraining all remaining levels to sorcerer), then yeah, using CR as level is probably fine in this case, but dragons are one of the few cases where I would exercise extreme caution. They get massive racial stat bonuses, a huge number of abilities, and have full BAB, all good saves, tons of hit points, tons of skill points, and are pretty much just generally good at everything. Consider that a CR 20 Wyrm is essentially a level 17 sorcerer with a TON of additional abilities, incredible stats across the board (+14 to all three mental attributes!) and 27 hit dice. Sure, you miss out on 9th level casting, but you gain an awful lot in return.


I once played in a game where a character did something similar (he became a deep dragon, can't remember the age category, however).

I honestly don't remember it becoming unbalancing. To be fair, however, balance was all over the map in this game and it still worked (his character was one of the most powerful in the group PRIOR to becoming a dragon, so I don't think it tipped things more in his favor).

In fact, if memory serves, he spent most of his time in humanoid form so very little changed (most of us even forgot that he was a dragon now).


I had a DM once that believed in throwing out wishes about 6-7 times per campaign. Or more. And he tried to subvert every single one of them based on who was handing them out. Wishes = Sadism. My standard response from these candy jars of doom was "I wish for an untainted apple." Then I would calmly place the apple on the ground and walk away.

Another guy I used to game with (with this very same DM) wished for 5 rings of protection +5 to appear in his hand. So they did. IN his hand. And they were non-functional since he didn't have any of them on one of his fingers like a proper ring.

This doesn't really have much to do with whether or not a wish spell can change someone's race into a dragon, but I would say it depends on your gaming experience and your GM - because in the old days it could do it, without question. That expectation still lingers on, regardless of what the spell says.


The players wish is significantly out of the scope of powergain that Wish can grant savely.

This is also known as "I'm greedy - please screw me over-territoy".

How the drawback of the Wished-for-too-much-Wish comes to effects is up to the DM's imagination. Imho it'd make the (ex)-Wizard into a Dragon of his Age, most likely a Wyrmling. Not a Wyrmling with 17 Wizard levels. Just into a Wyrmling. Wish granted.

If you are a too-nice DM you can let him keep a number of Wizardlevel so his effective-character-CR doesnt change. Silver Wyrmling is CR 6, so if he was a Level 17 Wizard before (= CR 16), he is now a Level 10 Wizard Wyrmling.


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What about the wish duplicating a possession spell that is cast upon a dragon in the process. Thus, for the duration of the possession spell, he's a true dragon?

Or, if he actually says that he wants to "wish himself into a true (silver) dragon" then he does. He appears inside it's belly...

Okay, that might be a stretch. :)


Actually, this could be considered reasonable.

The PaO modifier is +9 if the wizard is either medium or a kobold (+5 for being animals, +2 for same size or class, and +2 for the dragon having the same or lower intelligence than the wizard) PaO has no material component and is on the wizard list so wish can certainly duplicate it. However if you're reasonable wish, when not used with premeditation rather than to pull "any spell" out of thin air in an emergency, should be able to do more or there would be no point is using a ninth level slot and a great deal of money to do what an 8th level slot can do for free. By this standard, wish should reasonably be able to produce FotD I as an instant (non-dispellable) effect.


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LazarX wrote:
I believe the player's argument is that he's a dragon reincarnated into a Human.

A dragon wouldn't reincarnate into a human. Look at the reincarnation table - it's for small and medium humanoids. A dragon would reincarnate into another dragon.

"For non-humanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created." emphasis mine


LazarX wrote:
Claxon wrote:


Also, your players reincarnate argument doesn't hold water. Dragons are not on the reincarnate list for humanoids. If he wanted to transform himself to any of the humanoids on the list of reincarnate by using a wish I would certainly allow that, butdragons aren't on the table.

I believe the player's argument is that he's a dragon reincarnated into a Human.

Well that doesn't work since a dragon couldn't reincarnate into a human.

Non-humanoid creatures use a different (non-existent) table for reincarnate. Anything with the dragon type could be on that list. But you know what isn't? Humans.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think if I were the GM I would consider a few points:

1) how many more levels/adventures do I expect this group to have (if you are level 17 already you are probably nearing the end of the campaign arc(s)

2) what is the relative power level of the other players - my guess is the Wizard 17 is among the most powerful of characters

3) is this desire to be a silver dragon a new one or one the player has been building up towards for the whole campaign? Is there a good reason he wasn't a sorcerer of the draconic (silver) bloodline?

4) I almost certainly wouldn't allow this for a single casting of Wish - but I might allow multiple castings (which gets pretty costly) to create a permanent ability like say taking Form of the Dragon as a spell like ability.

Another alternative I might allow would be to change his race to a draconic related race - Kobold is the obvious choice (and there is even a feat that a good Kobold can take to get scales like a good dragon - if I did this to a player I would probably give them some Kobold specific feats either for free or as free retraining of some of their former feats (especially if any were specifically related to being their former race). Being a Kobold would hurt the player's STR & CON so this would be a pretty big deal. (and I would likely allow the player to select an alternative trait or two if they wanted to trade out "crafty" or light sensitivity.

Wyvaran would technically be another option - they have a race type of "dragon" - but also have an INT penalty (which would be a pretty big deal I imagine for a Wizard). Otherwise they don't offer all that much via core Paizo products (but there ere some 3rd party products that expand upon them with lots of options)

A final option would be to create your own race using the rules in Advanced Race Guide - instead of taking the full abilities of a silver dragon you might allow your Wizard to change into another race inspired by dragons. I would flavor it with silver dragon specific abilities. I might either use the Dragon type (which is a 10RP type but includes dark vision, low light vision and some immunities) or I might modify it and make it a half-dragon type / half-human (or whatever race the PC was originally). I would then probably give the new race some resistances (likely at least 10) and might give limited flight. If you kept the total around 15RP or less you probably have something not too unbalanced.

For simplicity you could keep the ability bonuses of the PC's original race or you might grant some small boost. If you want to be generous you might give him size tiny or size large (personally I think making this work as the PC becomes a tiny silver dragon would be very flavorful - actually gives some mechanical benefits without being too over powered and might be lots of fun. You could spend RP to give the race a Change Form ability (perhaps to a specific human or another race form) or you might just let the Wizard handle any additional transformations they desire via spells and use RP elsewhere. Tiny is a 4RP ability so not too strong but still pretty solid.

see http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder.html


honestly? why not let him just be a wyrmling and keep his levels save maybe 1 or 2? at the levels he is at his race is nearly irrelevant so why not let him have what he wants?


if he wants to be a dragon let him but he has to start as a baby dragon which means that if he ever wants to grow as a dragon he needs to have a hoard, now tell me what adventuring party unless all of them are dragons are willing to just let their treasure sit in one place without anyone guarding it.

right now im in a company of dragons game where we are all dragons so leaving our treasure in one place makes sense but we do have our npc dragons guarding it so we can go out and get more and trust me leveling as a dragon takes a long time and a lot of treasure to remain in one place and dragons will have a hard time wearing armor or using weapons besides there own, becoming a dragon is awsome though with those few downsides to it.

right now we just hit level 4 which took us to need a hoard of 24000 gp worth of treasure and we need another 30kish i think to hit level 5.


Even if he manages to word the spell to not be an egg, I'd rule that his mind changes to be like that of a dragon as well. The character is now an NPC, please generate a new one...


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Grey Lensman wrote:
Even if he manages to word the spell to not be an egg, I'd rule that his mind changes to be like that of a dragon as well. The character is now an NPC, please generate a new one...

the question, is WHY? what about the thought of having a level 17 wizard be able to use the second most powerful spell in the game to fulfill its intended purpose (granting wishes) for something that has likely little impact at all in the actual game-world (its much better than wishing for say, a powerful item, or to swipe the unprepared BBEG from his resting place right into your fully prepared party of PCs)


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QuidEst wrote:
If you want permanent dragonitude, Psychic with Greater Mindswap is the only way to do it by the book.

No, that doesn't work either. Major Mind Swap (but not Mind Swap) has a target limitation of an individual of your same race. So you change sex, but not race permanently.


Slithery D wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
If you want permanent dragonitude, Psychic with Greater Mindswap is the only way to do it by the book.
No, that doesn't work either. Major Mind Swap (but not Mind Swap) has a target limitation of an individual of your same race. So you change sex, but not race permanently.

Random Thought: Polymorph into dragon, greater mindswap into other dragon, other dragon gets screwed when your former body reverts


Hazrond wrote:
Slithery D wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
If you want permanent dragonitude, Psychic with Greater Mindswap is the only way to do it by the book.
No, that doesn't work either. Major Mind Swap (but not Mind Swap) has a target limitation of an individual of your same race. So you change sex, but not race permanently.
Random Thought: Polymorph into dragon, greater mindswap into other dragon, other dragon gets screwed when your former body reverts

Polymorphing doesn't change your subtype.


A wish doesn't have to become true right now. For balance's sake and for player's excitement it could slowly turn him into a dragon. Give him something right now, for instance permanent dragon wings. It's just a medium boost at this level range (from my gut feeling), but I guess he will like it.

Over time, he can grow more dragon body parts, probably one after each quest section. But he will probably face new challenges also, like dragons who despise the parvenu, or dragon hunters who make no difference between him and normal dragons. Additionally the party will have to convince villagers that the halfdragon on their side is actually one of the good guys - some peasants don't know a silver dragon is supposed to be friendly...


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Good lord, I remember when Wish was actually able to do something that was good. Now the best thing you can get out of it is a +1 Inherent Bonus to a statistic.

Screw Resurrections, they can't even do that right, you have to spend two of them to make it work. To hell with making dreams come true, they just backfire because it's not written in legalese (and if it were, it'd be discounted because there would be so many damn conditions and tangents listed that people would count each one as a separate wish). I mean, to hell with looking into the future, or solving any sort of problem, because you'd simply cause another one.

It's threads like these that make me sit there and think "Why the hell does the Wish spell even exist, if I can't even really feasibly use it for anything other than a 'stacking' stat increase?"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Good lord, I remember when Wish was actually able to do something that was good. Now the best thing you can get out of it is a +1 Inherent Bonus to a statistic.

Screw Resurrections, they can't even do that right, you have to spend two of them to make it work. To hell with making dreams come true, they just backfire because it's not written in legalese (and if it were, it'd be discounted because there would be so many damn conditions and tangents listed that people would count each one as a separate wish). I mean, to hell with looking into the future, or solving any sort of problem, because you'd simply cause another one.

It's threads like these that make me sit there and think "Why the hell does the Wish spell even exist, if I can't even really feasibly use it for anything other than a 'stacking' stat increase?"

For normal purposes.... it's for acesss to spells you'd never have.... like Resurrection. an it's for all the uses the spell does allow.


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Two things about Wish:
1) It's a 9th level spell, not a 255th level almighty spell. It can do anything a 9th level spell can do. It can do more, with proportionally unpleasant side effects.
2) It's a wish, not a contract. Writing a 320-pages essay to use as a wish guarantees that you won't get what you want. Just say "I wish this", not "I wish this, but without that, and when daisies are blooming, then this, and if someone hurts my feelings, then that, and the tip of my toe must be blue, etc."

That said, the best a Wish can do without breaking stuff is probably cast a Form of the Dragon Spell along with Permanency (which means bye-bye at the first Dispel Magic).


Slithery D wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
If you want permanent dragonitude, Psychic with Greater Mindswap is the only way to do it by the book.
No, that doesn't work either. Major Mind Swap (but not Mind Swap) has a target limitation of an individual of your same race. So you change sex, but not race permanently.

Ah, missed that! Good to know, and a reasonable balancing point. All the more reason to not let this fly (heh) with just a single casting of Wish.


Mind swap into a dragon, then greater mind swap from that body into another dragon.
Greater Mind Swap technically can't be duplicated with Wish, but this could easily be achieved with a scroll that costs less than the components for the Wish spell, so I'd just let that slide for thematic reasons.
The hard part will be getting the dragons. Side quest time!
Also, moral stuff. There's that.


LazarX wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Good lord, I remember when Wish was actually able to do something that was good. Now the best thing you can get out of it is a +1 Inherent Bonus to a statistic.

Screw Resurrections, they can't even do that right, you have to spend two of them to make it work. To hell with making dreams come true, they just backfire because it's not written in legalese (and if it were, it'd be discounted because there would be so many damn conditions and tangents listed that people would count each one as a separate wish). I mean, to hell with looking into the future, or solving any sort of problem, because you'd simply cause another one.

It's threads like these that make me sit there and think "Why the hell does the Wish spell even exist, if I can't even really feasibly use it for anything other than a 'stacking' stat increase?"

For normal purposes.... it's for acesss to spells you'd never have.... like Resurrection. an it's for all the uses the spell does allow.

As a Wizard, that's useless, as you would have probably close to every spell you could think of before you get access to Wish.

As a Sorcerer...you'd already have all of the spells you could possibly want in Scroll format.

So even for "normal purposes," it's stupid.


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Astral Wanderer wrote:

Two things about Wish:

1) It's a 9th level spell, not a 255th level almighty spell. It can do anything a 9th level spell can do. It can do more, with proportionally unpleasant side effects.
2) It's a wish, not a contract. Writing a 320-pages essay to use as a wish guarantees that you won't get what you want. Just say "I wish this", not "I wish this, but without that, and when daisies are blooming, then this, and if someone hurts my feelings, then that, and the tip of my toe must be blue, etc."

That said, the best a Wish can do without breaking stuff is probably cast a Form of the Dragon Spell along with Permanency (which means bye-bye at the first Dispel Magic).

The Wish description says that it is the most powerful Arcane spell. Nothing beats it, not Time Stop, not even a damn Tarrasque. The only thing that has a say is GM FIAT, because that's basically what the spell is.

The point here is that the flavor text of the spell says "By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you." Quite frankly, if it's supposed to change the laws of reality, as you know it, then damnit, it better be doing that.

As is, that text makes no sensible application as to what the spell actually does, and half the time, it doesn't even "better suit you," it just screws you over so hard because the GM says "lolno" to what you Wish for, because it's too much for the GM to handle. The easiest Wish is "I wish for Rocks to Fall and Everyone Dies from it," because that's probably the only feasible Wish you could ever get from it besides "I want more [Random Attribute]."

Now, I'm not saying the GM can't have a say in what happens with the Wish spell, what I'm saying is that the spell, even in RAW format, is pointless outside of granting Statistic increases, especially if we subscribe to the factor that Wizards know a literal crapton, if not every damn spell they can cast (and they can just hire a Cleric to do what they want to do for cheaper, especially since they're smart enough to do that), and Sorcerers wouldn't know what to properly Wish for because they have limited Spell access.

When the most powerful Arcane spell in the game becomes useless, that's when you have to redefine it as being the most over-inflated, stupid, oxymoronic, Big-Red-Letters-Saying-"You're-Gonna-Get-Screwed," spell in the game.

That being said, I'm going to go ahead and bow my head out of this and any further Wish threads, because I'm sure after this, I doubt I'll have anything more constructive to say on the matter.


If you plan for access to Wish, you could also talk with your GM about it beforehand, ask how they'd interpret it, and make sure you have a good sense for how it's actually going to work. ^^


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So....17th level wizard wants to wish himself a silver dragon?
Assuming you are comfortable with this precedent...let him. At best he's what, adult? That is CR 17.

He's losing all his class abilities...so if he wants to become a tank and a 7th level sorceror, while every other PC keeps their 9th level spells, fine.

Now if you are allowing full dragon abilities and keeping his wizard class, that is definitely beyond a normal power level.

And why doesn't every villain do something similar? AND wish for maximized hp?


I remember the old days of AD&D 1.x, when instead of having an expensive material component, Wish aged you by 3 years, and most of the applications of wish also left you bedridden for a few days, and the description of what to do with overly powerful wishes pretty much invited the DM to corrupt Wishes, so what some are observing above is not at all new. Actually, an Infernal Contract sounded like just the thing to minimize the damage done by a Wish gone awry. Homer Simpson had the right idea, even if the execution did't come out quite right . . . .


Rerednaw wrote:

So....17th level wizard wants to wish himself a silver dragon?

Assuming you are comfortable with this precedent...let him. At best he's what, adult? That is CR 17.

He's losing all his class abilities...so if he wants to become a tank and a 7th level sorceror, while every other PC keeps their 9th level spells, fine.

Now if you are allowing full dragon abilities and keeping his wizard class, that is definitely beyond a normal power level.

And why doesn't every villain do something similar? AND wish for maximized hp?

why not, instead of making him into a full size CR 17 dragon, let him trade a couple of levels and be a Silver Wyrmling? i fail to see how in ANY way a wyrmling can have more of an effect in a game that high level than a human would barring some special circumstances regarding dragons


Silver Pseudodragon
at night, he turns into a human ala Ladyhawk.


LazarX wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
It's threads like these that make me sit there and think "Why the hell does the Wish spell even exist
For normal purposes.... it's for acesss to spells you'd never have....

100% confirmed: the spell sage wizard archetype is like wish but super wish of wishy wish-wish.


i think if your players want to be dragons, you should make them ALL dragons. maybe someone has done a council of wyrms campaign setting conversion?

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