Air Your Grievances


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Dark Archive

Goth Guru wrote:

I started a topic about special characteristics for random towns. I invited anyone to add to the list. The only answer I got was some uncreative jerk who asked what weird ruleset I was using. I told him it was the homebrew subboard, not the troll rally, but now I'm afraid to go back and look.

Some time in the future, maybe 2525 or so, they will have cured most of the maladies that creative people suffer from. No allergies, chemical brain imbalances, and slow, torturous diseases.They will go pouring through the records of our time looking for stuff they can use for the holo movies and games of their time. Sometimes they will find a stub topic where someone pooped their negativity all over an interesting idea.

My life is already a horrendous torment that such idiots would not survive a day of.

If you want to lie about it go ahead. I asked you a question because I was unsure of how to help out. Instead you called me a troll.

Dark Archive

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvdv?100-or-more-special-qualities-for-village s#2

And here is the link to it all. See for yourselves.


Put with the link where the _ is, then close with to complete the link. In between the two put in however you want to name the link.

Like so. :)

Dark Archive

On my phone so it is hard.


NenkotaMoon wrote:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvdv?100-or-more-special-qualities-for-village s#2

And here is the link to it all. See for yourselves.

Someone at Paizo sent me an E-mail saying it was removed because they didn't want to add stuff to their table. I'm still trying to make sense of that. Anyway no one wanted to add anything, so it was a bad idea and I will never attempt anything like that again.


Goth Guru wrote:
NenkotaMoon wrote:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvdv?100-or-more-special-qualities-for-village s#2

And here is the link to it all. See for yourselves.

Someone at Paizo sent me an E-mail saying it was removed because they didn't want to add stuff to their table. I'm still trying to make sense of that. Anyway no one wanted to add anything, so it was a bad idea and I will never attempt anything like that again.

Awww:(

I liked your chart, I just didn't have anything constructive to add to it (hence I didn't add anything). I'd be sad if you never attempted something like it again.

Scarab Sages

I miss playing in the Eberron setting.

We used to have a great campaign in the Eberron setting, which died due to non-game reasons. Sunday during our Wrath of the Righteous game the player who GM'd that Eberron campaign was looking at some Pathfinder robot minis, and it reminded me of warforged and of how much I was enjoying that setting. Sigh.

Sovereign Court

DDO taught me to like Eberron...


The only time I ever played in Eberron was right after the setting came out. It was at GenCon and the DM didn't even know the rules for 3e and had to keep asking the DM at the table next to us what to do. Not much fun, that.

Dark Archive

Goth Guru wrote:
NenkotaMoon wrote:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tvdv?100-or-more-special-qualities-for-village s#2

And here is the link to it all. See for yourselves.

Someone at Paizo sent me an E-mail saying it was removed because they didn't want to add stuff to their table. I'm still trying to make sense of that. Anyway no one wanted to add anything, so it was a bad idea and I will never attempt anything like that again.

Whatever floats your boat.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Grievance time. Specifically, a painful irony.

So, occasionally I peek over at the PFS forums to see if the culture is showing any signs of changing in a way that I might consider going back. Today, I encounter a thread in which someone says that a GM is jerk if they enforce a particular campaign rule.

Someone in the leadership culture (either a multi-star GM or a VO, or both; don't remember) calls him out saying that it's not cool to call the GM a jerk just for being fair and enforcing the rules.

I totally agree!

He said that doing so is just a form of bullying.

I agree with that too!

He said that new GMs who face that type of bullying will sometimes not GM anymore (which hurts everybody).

Yep, I believe it!

He said that this is the most common form of bullying he sees in PFS.

...wait, what?

Are you serious? I've seen it, like, maybe a couple of times in as many years. Even just as far as bullying toward new GMs, I've seen more instances of other types (such as a veteran GM who's run the scenario before flipping out at the first error), rather than specifically that.

But for bullying in general, the main form I've seen in PFS is actually the reverse of the style in question: when a player wants a rule enforced, and the GM bullies and name-calls. A well-intentioned player comes up with an idea for a character they think will be fun, they build it in good faith, they make sure they know how it works and that everything's legal, they bring it to a table intending to just have some fun... and if the GM doesn't like some aspect of it, then they call one or more of the mechanics a "gray area" and "interpret" that something doesn't work. Then the confused player comes to the forums to try and figure out what's wrong, and they're met with a chorus of multi-star GMs and VOs telling them how selfish and demanding and uncooperative the player is being. They get called jerks/munchkins/roleplayers, they get told that they've forgotten that the point of the game is to have fun or that they're being antisocial, and suffer all kinds of other verbal abuse.

If a GM wants the "reroll merchandise must be in use" rule to be enforced, the PFS leadership community will rise up to defend fair GMing against bullying, on the rare occasion it comes up. (As they should; I'm not denying that at all.)

If a player wants a class feature or sometimes even just a core game rule enforced, the PFS leadership community* will consistently rise up to shame the player into submission.

This is a large part of why I left PFS in the first place.

*No, not all of them. Just 99% of the ones who say anything at all. Silence is not innocence when you're watching your fellow leader attack someone who has no power or influence of their own.

Grand Lodge

VOs have traditionally supported each other in public and taken each other to task in private.

Silver Crusade

Maybe it's just me, but I see 1000 times more arguments and bullying on the PFS forums than at actual game tables. In fact, I've seen almost none at the tables.

Silver Crusade

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Yeah, I've never been to an in-person PFS game, but the PFS forums have completely removed any want to attend one.

Shadow Lodge

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You know you'd like mine.


Fromper wrote:
Maybe it's just me,

It's just you.


I'm game, just as soon as I get some time.

It's best to remove the internet from real world interactions. :-)

Silver Crusade

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Rysky wrote:
Yeah, I've never been to an in-person PFS game, but the PFS forums have completely removed any want to attend one.

I see comments like that a lot on the forums, and it's kinda sad. The actual gaming tables at game stores and conventions are nothing like the forums.

I keep saying the PFS forums here aren't actually for PFS players. They're actually for people whose hobby is arguing on the internet. You won't see anything like that at a PFS game.

Grand Lodge

Full disclosure, I have seen arguments at the table. (Yes, I was a part of one or two of them.) However, out of 350 tables, I can count them on one hand.


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I've actually gotten over my initial dislike of PFS after encountering more groups and meeting some nice players there. The VOs I've met are actually some pretty cool folks.

The only thing that still gripes me about it is that they aren't allowed to turn away problem players unless it's repeatedly documented...they have to let them in one of the tables, and that means you might get stuck playing with someone you dealt with before and had a negative experience if the luck of the draw is against you (or leaving if you REALLY don't want to deal with them again).

...and also that "smelling god awful" isn't an excusable problem to boot someone.


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Fromper wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yeah, I've never been to an in-person PFS game, but the PFS forums have completely removed any want to attend one.

I see comments like that a lot on the forums, and it's kinda sad. The actual gaming tables at game stores and conventions are nothing like the forums.

I keep saying the PFS forums here aren't actually for PFS players. They're actually for people whose hobby is arguing on the internet. You won't see anything like that at a PFS game.

Regardless of what "real" PFS games are like (as opposed to...what, the "fake" PFS players who post here?), the attitudes of the leaders of PFS on the forum are more than enough reason for me to avoid PFS.

There have been numerous threads where the discussion has gone something along the lines of:
OP: I have an idea, how about changing XYZ in PFS policy?
Poster A (Venture Officer with 5 stars):[/b] You're just a whiny munchkin brat for asking.
Poster B (Venture Captain): It would utterly destroy everything sacred about this hobby, because the player base would ruin it. We already have to deal with a player base that are utterly incapable of civility and are constantly trying to destroy the game. This change would just embolden the viscous subhuman MMO children to wreck even more havoc.
Poster C: (4 stars, but no "venture" title): You're clearly an idiot, OP. The people who run PFS are super smart and have already thought of everything and understand everything perfectly, so clearly your idea must be terrible because the omniscient PFS organizers haven't already implemented it. Trust me, if you knew anything about running a game at all, you'd know why your idea sucks.
Poster D: (Venture Lieutenant) What are you trying to get out of this? What's your secret adgenda?
Poster E: Just quit whining and be grateful that Paizo is providing you with a campaign at all. They are really generous in offering this campaign for FREE [aside from the pay-to-play purchases of scenarios and rulebooks] out of the GOODNESS OF THEIR HEARTS [and as a money-making tool]. You'd never be able to find a home game that gives you nearly as much control over the game. You aren't entitled to be able to play, so shut up and thank Paizo and PFS for letting you pay them!
Fromper/someone like Fromper: Please don't be turned of, OP, "real" PFS games aren't like this thread!

And here's the issue: I have no interest whatsoever in playing a game run by someone who views the game with an "us vs them" mentality. None. I do not play in a game with a GM if I think that GM views me as an adversary to be "defeated." Even if everyone else in the game is really nice and friendly, bad leadership can spoil the game.

So, maybe you are right. Maybe in a "real PFS game" (I love oxymorons:D), people are friendly. It doesn't matter, as far as I'm concerned. If the people Paizo has chosen to run PFS view me as a scourge on humanity, I do not want to play in a game they are running.
And, frankly, it makes it harder for me to support Paizo when I know that the people Paizo has chosen as representatives behave that way in public.

Countering the inevitable strawmen: I did not assert that all PFS leaders behave in such a manner. Just enough of them to turn me off of PFS.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

TriOmegaZero wrote:
VOs have traditionally supported each other in public and taken each other to task in private.

Yes, everyone can see that they support each other in public. That's part of the problem: some of them engage in bullying and verbal abuse in public and are publicly supported in it.

When the original behavior is a Bad Thing, "supporting each other in public" becomes a Bad Thing as well.

As for "taking each other to task in private", if that ever starts to produce any actual changes in behavior, let me know.

Fromper wrote:

I see 1000 times more arguments and bullying on the PFS forums than at actual game tables. In fact, I've seen almost none at the tables.

....
The actual gaming tables at game stores and conventions are nothing like the forums.

Speak for yourself. The list of GMs I was trying to avoid (some of them entirely, some of them just if I was playing at higher than 3rd level or with a nontraditional build) at local game days (across multiple venues) was starting to make my scheduling pretty difficult.

I also lost count of how many different people have PM'd me to either congratulate me on being willing to stand up to a certain member of the leadership culture (up to and including promises to buy me a drink if we ever met in person) or telling me I was wasting my time because that person just doesn't listen to reason. I kept replying to these people in an attempt to defend this person because they're a prominent local GM, but the more I gamed with them, the harder it became to do so while maintaining any kind of honesty/integrity.

Sorry, but if "that's not what real tables are like" were true, I might still be playing PFS.

The members of the leadership culture who are doing all the bullying and player-shaming on the messageboards are real, actual PFS leaders who run lots and lots of real, actual PFS games using the same attitudes and opinions that they express online. Even if they're a minority, they're still real GMs, and someone is getting seated at their tables. PFS would do well to realize that fact, and do something about it.

Silver Crusade

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I've played PFS in 5 different states, and specifically played with venture officers from more states than that. I've only met one that was the type of problem person you seem to be talking about, and he lasted as a venture-captain for less than 6 months.

If you've got problems with the leadership in your local area, I'd suggest you contact PFS leadership at Paizo and let them know of your complaints. They can't do anything if they don't know there's a problem. And if you and a few other people do complain, then maybe they'll take action to do something about it.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Fromper wrote:
I've played PFS in 5 different states, and specifically played with venture officers from more states than that. I've only met one that was the type of problem person you seem to be talking about, and he lasted as a venture-captain for less than 6 months.

That's awesome for you. (Not being sarcastic here.) If PFS is still fun for you, then please, enjoy the hell out of it. :)

Quote:
If you've got problems with the leadership in your local area, I'd suggest you contact PFS leadership at Paizo and let them know of your complaints. They can't do anything if they don't know there's a problem.

That's the thing: it's already known. What am I going to be informing the Campaign Coordinator of? That the way these people act online isn't just some fabricated persona with beliefs and attitudes that are the exact opposite of their real ones?

Quote:
And if you and a few other people do complain, then maybe they'll take action to do something about it.

Hasn't worked so far. Unless "complaining" only counts if it's a private email to the Campaign Coordinator, but putting the same complaint onto the forums somehow becomes invisible.

It's not a matter of "leadership doesn't know these people are doing XYZ bad things so you should inform them". Sorry, but your advice is pretty hollow.


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There are unwritten rules I call "The bylaws". When I make a topic, what builds are persecuted by some PFS GMs? Min Maxers? Extreme power gamers? Halfling Barbarians?

One of my grievances is someone in power not saying up front what things allowed by RAW they go out of their way to destroy.


Yep don't be passive about it if you don't want me playing something or don't like something tell your players. It's a lot better than always targeting the character because you hate it. Now it PFS suck it up buttercup if its legal you run for it even if you think Gunslingers are crapping all over your fantasy world.

Community & Digital Content Director

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Just piping in quickly: let's not derail this into a debate about the online presence of our volunteer core. Tonya and I actually appreciate hearing feedback like what's been posted here. So as to not derail the discussion, but to if you'd like to kick off a different thread in Website Feedback or correspondence chain: what do you feel our forum policies or moderators could/should do in these cases? What do you want to see from Paizo and our staff?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

New thread made, over in Website Feedback as suggested. Thanks, Chris!


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thegreenteagamer wrote:

I've actually gotten over my initial dislike of PFS after encountering more groups and meeting some nice players there. The VOs I've met are actually some pretty cool folks.

The only thing that still gripes me about it is that they aren't allowed to turn away problem players unless it's repeatedly documented...they have to let them in one of the tables, and that means you might get stuck playing with someone you dealt with before and had a negative experience if the luck of the draw is against you (or leaving if you REALLY don't want to deal with them again).

...and also that "smelling god awful" isn't an excusable problem to boot someone.

This right here is the reason why I have no desire to return to playing PFS. There is a player at my local PFS location whose sexist (and racist and homophobic, but mostly the sexist) behavior made me decide to refuse to sit at a table he's playing at.

Which means if there was only one table and his name was on the signup, I just wouldn't go.

The local Venture Agent was aware of it, and tried to get the guy removed, but as I (and the others who had similar experiences) never actually wrote out documentation the events, campaign leadership wouldn't do anything. Which means that if I wanted him removed I would actually have to purposely play with the guy so that I could document his behavior.

Why bother? Instead I just stopped playing PFS.


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Where's that other topic. I want to suggest die bumps for good behavior.Every day you visit that you neither smell nor be offensive, you get a one shot die bump, possibly on your next visit.


If you mean the one Jiggy made it's right here

Scarab Sages

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
The only time I ever played in Eberron was right after the setting came out. It was at GenCon and the DM didn't even know the rules for 3e and had to keep asking the DM at the table next to us what to do. Not much fun, that.

Definitely not a good introduction. That's too bad. If you like high fantasy but want to get away from the traditional tropes of settings like Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance and Greyhawk (and yes, Golarion), Eberron is a good option. I like the 'magicpunk' aspect, and the different twist on familiar races like elves and halflings. The elves of Aerenal really hooked me. The new races are interesting, too, especially the warforged.

Now to my own complaint today, which is roleplaying-related but not tabletop:

I would really like to play an MMO, just to see what it's like, but I'm really afraid of the jerks ruining the experience for me before I can get started. I'm also afraid of it taking up too much of my time, and the one time I tried (LOTRO) I couldn't figure out the controls and gave up. I wish that the producers of such games would make solo console/PC RPGs in their settings so I could do that instead.

Sovereign Court

Dire Elf wrote:


I would really like to play an MMO, just to see what it's like, but I'm really afraid of the jerks ruining the experience for me before I can get started. I'm also afraid of it taking up too much of my time, and the one time I tried (LOTRO) I couldn't figure out the controls and gave up. I wish that the producers of such games would make solo console/PC RPGs in their settings so I could do that instead.

Well DDO added a solo difficulty and added hirelings you can buy to help you along the way. You can play quite a bit of the game now and its free to play. However, some of the best parts of the game are behind a paywall and/or are parts of 12 person raids. Though I think you should at least give it a whirl.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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New grievance: a bug flew into my eye yesterday afternoon. Didn't even hit the eyelashes on the way. My eye's been itchy and sore ever since.


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Jiggy wrote:
New grievance: a bug flew into my eye yesterday afternoon. Didn't even hit the eyelashes on the way. My eye's been itchy and sore ever since.

sounds like it's really bugging you


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My grievance: Reese's Peanut Butter cups are not as big as I remember from my childhood.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Mainer wrote:
My grievance: Reese's Peanut Butter cups are not as big as I remember from my childhood.

You could always do homemade. ;)


I'm about to resume a campaign after a long hiatus and I have no idea what to write for the first session.


Serghar Cromwell wrote:
I'm about to resume a campaign after a long hiatus and I have no idea what to write for the first session.

Let's hear about your campaign. Maybe someone can throw some ideas your way.


I'd love to toss my 2 cents in.


In medias res: The six great ogres/whathaveyou attack! Roll for initiative, meat snacks!

Next scene: Tell them what led up to the ogre attack.

That usually works as a starter.

Silver Crusade

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Start with the classics:

"It's a dark and stormy night. You're in a tavern, when you're approached by a mysterious woman, looking to hire adventurers."


An unknown attacker subjects the sleeping PCs to a ghoulish mindscape, as well as a captured bogeyman or the like. PCs must flee from their bogeyman, while trying to gain an understanding of what's happened. If one of them were to awake, they'd find there attacker in the hall near their room (rooms).


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Fromper wrote:

Start with the classics:

"It's a dark and stormy night. You're in a tavern, when you're approached by a mysterious woman, looking to hire adventurers."

Or the less classic

"It's a dark and stormy night. You're in a tavern, when you're approached by a mysterious woman, who throws a fireball at you."


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The only gaming stores I can reasonably reach only support Magic on Fridays, and 5th edition on Wednesdays. I can't play Pathfinder with strangers in person even if I wanted to. And my former home group is just kinda disbanded, and I don't know enough people who'd want to learn to form a group. It makes me sad because I miss playing face-to-face, even if the group had some issues.


DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Serghar Cromwell wrote:
I'm about to resume a campaign after a long hiatus and I have no idea what to write for the first session.
Let's hear about your campaign. Maybe someone can throw some ideas your way.

The PCs are part of an outcast prince's attempt to start his own country on a different continent. So far they've founded two towns and befriended both a tribe of kobolds and a nest of phase spiders. There is an overarching plot involving demons and a Lamashtu cult, but the last session before the break developed that, so I'm mostly looking for ideas for interesting things to have them do while I try to get my brain back in GM mode.

The PCs all work for the fledgling government. The indigenous population is short on core races. Except gnomes. Those guys pop up everywhere.

If that summary isn't helpful, I'll be glad to answer any questions anyone has.

Silver Crusade

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Green Smashomancer wrote:
The only gaming stores I can reasonably reach only support Magic on Fridays, and 5th edition on Wednesdays. I can't play Pathfinder with strangers in person even if I wanted to. And my former home group is just kinda disbanded, and I don't know enough people who'd want to learn to form a group. It makes me sad because I miss playing face-to-face, even if the group had some issues.

Have you looked on meetup.com? I've found it's a great way to meet people with similar interests. If you're in a big enough area, there's probably already a group for RPG players in your area. If not, you can start one, though it costs money to start a group.

Another option is to see if your game store has a place to post notices. You could advertise that way to start a new group.

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