Hey, as the title says, I'm wondering how players and GMs felt with a 15 point AP? The AP I'm planning to run is Hells Rebels. I'm currently running Runelords with 20 point buy and 5 players and they've been having a decently smooth run. Some rolls have been rough and caused damage, however overall my players are good at what they do, so I feel the challenge would be good for them.
The players are happy enough to give it a shot- I just want to see how others have found it.
Do whatever you want, but as I've said before (with mathz), 15 pt buy penalizes martials. Casters will always get that 18 they want in whatever given stat (or 16 if they want to pad some other attributes, it doesn't matter).
It's martials - who have to take special attention to DEX/CON and one or two mental stats issually - that get hit by the lack of 5 points the hardest.
And by the love of god, do allow dumping.
15-pt buy has been the default assumption forever, per James Jacobs as cited in numerous posts over several years. PFS uses 20-pt buy as default.
Thanks for the input, I was one of those under the assumption that they were designed for 15 point buy. I think I will roll with 20 point buy, they've been enjoying it so far and it just means I need to step up to the challenge. Thanks for the input again ^-^
Well, they are designed for 4 players. If they are good at optimization, slap an Advanced Template on everything.
I personally find the game balance is a bit better at higher point buy. It does mean you have to adjust the difficulty of your AP, but it's always a good idea to adapt it to your specific table anyways.
I've run several different AP point buy values over the years. My personal observation is the game still plays fine at the lower values.
There'll be more rough spots that'll stand out more, but if they can survive the initial levels, they can catch up on gear.
I do agree with the comments above that indicate that SAD will be more dominant than MAD, or caster vs. melee.
But 15 point buy will put them on a peer level with most enemies; it may mean more that they would be considered Average Joes taking on heroic threats by virtue of skill and determination rather than sweet arrays.
It will be more difficult, but hey, they will feel more rewarded. Imagine that backdrop cast member in an adventure movie without any special camera shots or plot armor being the one to drop the hero or the BBEG. Definitely stands out more than the hollywood star doing what he's paid to do.
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15-pt buy has been the default assumption forever, per James Jacobs as cited in numerous posts over several years. PFS uses 20-pt buy as default.
Just because it's been used for years doesn't mean it was right. 15 pt buy is a math error. Mark Seifter proved 15 pt buy was a math error before he joined Paizo. 20 pt buy is necessary to match the average for 4d6 drop lowest.
I use 20 PB when I run APs and have 5 players. To make up for it I max all enemy HP and keep the players behind a level starting at about level 5. I ditch XP and use the advancement track instead. This seems to be my winning formula. Good luck!
15 pt buy is a math error. Mark Seifter proved 15 pt buy was a math error before he joined Paizo. 20 pt buy is necessary to match the average for 4d6 drop lowest.
The reasons for the original 15 point assumption might have been flawed, but the trial and error testing that has taken place since then has mostly been based on 15-point buy.
20 pt buy is necessary to match the average for 4d6 drop lowest.
If I was powergaming, I'd take 15 point buy over 3of4d6, since then I'd be able to get the stats that would be most useful to my character rather than the ones that were highest overall.
A 15 PB is what NPCs use. The extra 5 points does not a "god" make.
We always use 20 or 25 point buy.
As we all know, martials suffer with lower values, casters don't (as much).
If you want a heavy caster game, 15 will work.
If you want Fighters in the party, consider 20-25.
Even with a 25 point buy, I usually use this array: 14,14,14,14,14,10
That produces a well rounded, intelligent fighter who isn't a total drag in social situations, fairly competent.
With 15 point buy, it would be 14,14,14,10,10,10.
No wisdom bonus, no INT bonus... 2 skill points per level.
Wizards arrays would be: N/A,N/A,N/A,18,8,N/A or similar...
The value of PB for a given campaign has a much higher impact on inter-class and characterbuild balance, then on overall powerlevel of the party. Player teamwork, build synergy and general system mastery are the major drivers of the group's powerlevel, not 2 points in a secondary and tertiary stat.
Casters will always have a very high mainstat, its not noticeable if they start with an 18, 19 or even 20 in it. The rest of their stats are largely irrelevant for them, besides a bit in CON.
But martials will notice in general and MAD-classes like Monk or TWFers in particular will shrivel with a low PB.
Lowering PB hits the classes that are on the low end of the power totem pole the most, and barely touches the topdogs.
I use 15 for a few reasons:
First, I've got a table of six players. It helps me balance the lower-level encounters a bit to have slightly weaker PCs
Second, we enjoy having the first few levels be a bit harrowing or rough. That's usually when we have the most fun, actually, since that's when the game has the most on the line (can't afford to be resurrected, restoration is mostly out of reach, etc.)
Third, it's not really that much or less powerful than 20. It just seems more fun because you have an extra bonus or two. It also doesn't really matter that much once you start getting stat-enhancing items.
Lastly, most monsters seem lowballed in the Bestiaries. Having lowballed PCs reduces the need for me to add templates to everything just to make them challenging.
I'd say 15 or 20 both work, and neither is "wrong" in terms of how they work out in play. They're both fun. 25 seems like a lot for an AP though; I'd think that would trivialize a lot of lower-level counters as written, which just means you have to compensate as a DM more and more.
I use 15 for a few reasons:
First, I've got a table of six players. It helps me balance the lower-level encounters a bit to have slightly weaker PCs
Second, we enjoy having the first few levels be a bit harrowing or rough. That's usually when we have the most fun, actually, since that's when the game has the most on the line (can't afford to be resurrected, restoration is mostly out of reach, etc.)
Third, it's not really that much or less powerful than 20. It just seems more fun because you have an extra bonus or two. It also doesn't really matter that much once you start getting stat-enhancing items.
Lastly, most monsters seem lowballed in the Bestiaries. Having lowballed PCs reduces the need for me to add templates to everything just to make them challenging.
I'd say 15 or 20 both work, and neither is "wrong" in terms of how they work out in play. They're both fun. 25 seems like a lot for an AP though; I'd think that would trivialize a lot of lower-level counters as written, which just means you have to compensate as a DM more and more.
25 does make for fairly powerful characters, regardless of class.
15 point buy is usually better for dedicated optimizers - 20 points won't stop them dumping Int and Cha for their Barbarian, it will just mean they have even more extreme physical stats. 20 point buy is better for players who spread stat points around for the sake of flavor. But it will vary by class and individual so there's no easy answer.
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Our group uses 15 point buy. We used to use 20, but we tried 15 and there really weren't a lot of problems. I played a 15 PB fighter in Carrion Crown and was perfectly serviceable and fun. Right now we are playing a group of witch, barbarian, PHB rogue, and cleric in Skull&Shackles and it's been fine. I tend to think about PB values as being difficulty settings:
Beginner :25
Easy :20
Normal :15
Hard :10
I think PFS gives 20 because you usually can't plan your group - you need the extra power to compensate for randomly assembled groups. Teamwork is such a force multiplier that you could be playing 3 PB characters and do well if you work together well.
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My campaign is 15 point buy, 5 players, and the players will steamroll anything in an AP or published module/scenario unless I ramp it up.
I just ran them through Midnight Mauler, they were 4th lvl, but I ran them through the CR 8 version of it, and they came out pretty well, one player did get down to 1 hp at one point but he lived.
But yeah they all dumped, their stats they don't need are 7 or 8.
tldr; if they are decent 15 is just as effective for players, but will make it slightly easier on the DM and give more room for improvement as they level, which also makes it easier to reward them.
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20 pt buy is necessary to match the average for 4d6 drop lowest.If I was powergaming, I'd take 15 point buy over 3of4d6, since then I'd be able to get the stats that would be most useful to my character rather than the ones that were highest overall.
It depends upon the class I was playing. For a SAD class - definitely. A wizard can still get a 20 Int at level 1 with a 15pt buy. The chances of that happening with 4d6 drop the lowest are pretty slim.
If I was a more MAD class - Pali, monk etc, I'd go with 4d6 drop the lowest. Especially since I dislike dumping Int for aesthetic reasons. (I don't want to roleplay a moron.)
A pali with 15pt buy is having trouble getting a 12 dex in addition to their 14 in their 3 main stats (Str/Con/Cha) before racial. Chances are good that he'd do a bit better with 4d6.
There's a good chance of failing to get the four good stats you need for a MAD class with 3of4d6. Playing a monk with a bunch of 13s isn't much fun.
There's a good chance of failing to get the four good stats you need for a MAD class with 3of4d6. Playing a monk with a bunch of 13s isn't much fun.
I haven't rolled for stats since 1992.
Well, they are designed for 4 players. If they are good at optimization, slap an Advanced Template on everything.
I MUCH prefer to add low level mooks to the encounters. Having six 5th level characters fight one CR 7 creature instead of one CR 6 creature isn't going to change much. If it's a CR 6 creature plus four CR 2 creatures, that starts to make things more interesting and less "Rocket tag".
I find it interesting that everyone's talking about the standard 15 and 20 point buys, comparing the two, debating which is better, etc, yet nobody here seems to even consider the option of compromising. If you can't decide between 15 or 20 point buy, why not try 18 point buy or something?
In our current Skulls ans Shackles, it suggested a 15 point buy. I bribed the PCs with an extra point if they choose a class and/or race from a list of more "pirate themed". So they nearly all ended up with a 17 point build.
I run Giantslayer with 15 points. But I noticed bad and good player choices have a much, much bigger impact than a few stat points...
And if you look at the numbers, that's not surprising. 5 more points allow to rise your main stat from 14 to 16. Nice, but it doesn't win the game for you.
Giving them too many stat points can actually devalue items, feat choices and level progress - better let them earn their power instead of throwing it at them for free...
I already posted my thoughts on this in another thread, but I did some research on this very topic and came to some conclusions.
Average expected result of:
4d6 Drop the low die 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 = 19 Point Buy
Elite array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 = 15 Point Buy
4e Standard array 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 = 20 Point Buy
Straight 13s 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13 = 18 Point Buy
Some numbers to look at to see what you can do with 20 points:
Best average w/an 18 18, 11, 11, 11, 10, 10 = 20 Point Buy
18 + second stat 18, 16, 9, 8, 8, 8 = 20 Point Buy
3 stats 16, 16, 14, 9, 8, 8 = 20 Point Buy
4 stats 15, 15, 14, 14, 8, 8 = 20 Point Buy
Some numbers to look at to see what you can do with 15 points:
Best average w/an 18 18, 10, 10, 10, 9, 9 = 15 Point Buy
18 + second stat 18, 14, 8, 8, 8, 8 = 15 Point Buy
3 stats 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 = 15 Point Buy
4 stats 14, 14, 14, 13, 9, 8 = 15 Point Buy
No matter what you do, full casters are going to EASILY be able to get an 18 even with 15 points, but any multi stat character is going to really struggle in comparison with anything less than say 18 points - might as well throw in the extra 2 points that are not going into a critical stat anyway, that 4 stat, 15 point build monk or ranger is gonna be awful. 20 is not going to make the single stat casting classes any stronger.
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I do kinda wonder if anyone rolls stats for APs ._.
Heck, I wonder if anyone uses dice pool stat generation method mentioned in corebook, I know some rare people are old school enough to roll but I haven't ever heard anyone using dicepool...
I have a friend who created a character roller macro for Maptools that randomly generates a character between 10 and 20 point buy(using 4d6 drop lowest). If it rolls worse or better than that, it discards the character without telling you and rerolls. It allows a group to have random rolling without anyone being terribly over or underpowered.
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Wizards can even get an 18 with 10 point buy and still be functional as pure casters. They can't fill any side rolls worth anything [no face wizards or martial wizards] but 10 point buy is fine for a simple caster wizard.
07 Str [+04 points]
14 Con [-05 points]
14 Dex [-05 points]
18 Int [-10 points + racial bonus]
08 Wis [+02 points]
07 Cha [+04 points]Bam
They actually can fill side rolls just fine. A trait allows you to use Intelligence for Bluff and Diplomacy checks to influence others to be the face, and the 7 skill points per level allows them to fully train anything else they may need.
Since we're playing the mental exercise game,
5 Point Build Wizard
07 Str [+04 points]
12 Con [-2 points]
12 Dex [-2 points]
19 Int [-13 points + racial bonus]
07 Wis [+04 points]
07 Cha [+04 points]
If you just HAD to, you could get away with this.
Just give out 20, add some CR-3 or -4 minions if you think its too easy.
If you're satisfied with a 12 in Con and Dex [I'm not, although I suppose a Diviner Wizard might still do fine in initative contests...]
A human can make that build functional even at 0 points by sacrificing its bonus feat.
07 Str [+04]
12 Con [-00 + Racial Bonus]
12 Dex [-02]
18 Int [-10 + Racial Bonus]
07 Wis [+04]
07 Cha [+04]
...
OK, that's just ridiculous.
If you're satisfied with a 12 in Con and Dex [I'm not, although I suppose a Diviner Wizard might still do fine in initative contests...]
A human can make that build functional even at 0 points by sacrificing its bonus feat.
07 Str [+04]
12 Con [-00 + Racial Bonus]
12 Dex [-02]
18 Int [-10 + Racial Bonus]
07 Wis [+04]
07 Cha [+04]
Yeah... Fully functional, competent fullcaster with PB 0. Never had it shown so clearly who really gets impacted with low PB-values.
If you're satisfied with a 12 in Con and Dex [I'm not, although I suppose a Diviner Wizard might still do fine in initative contests...]
I'm not THRILLED by a 12 Dex, it would just encourage me to use a trait at least to bump initiative, I think it works - I'd rather have the feat back, and take Imp. Initiative than use it like you did though, although really we're just dickering over really how little low Point Buys bother single stat casters.
Yeah... Fully functional, competent fullcaster with PB 0. Never had it shown so clearly who really gets impacted with low PB-values.
Exactly.
I always run a 25 point buy. The power difference is negligible for those classes at the top of the power curve, while giving giving a nice boon to the more MAD classes. I also note an increase in "odd" character choices, such as strength based Halfings or Dwarven Bards.
I always run a 25 point buy. The power difference is negligible for those classes at the top of the power curve, while giving giving a nice boon to the more MAD classes. I also note an increase in "odd" character choices, such as strength based Halfings or Dwarven Bards.
I'll try that next game. See how it goes.
My DM usual runs 20 point buy, however we have our stats limited to a maximum of 17 and minimum of 8 AFTER racial modifiers.
We really like this restriction as higher point buy in general is intended to help more MAD classes feel less crippled and it also means that players who may want to play an elven sorcerer can do so without feeling like their race has had a massive impact on their ability scores, though it does still give some benefit.