Flesh Golem Question


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Let's say that I gained the Flesh Golem as a cohort, then I discarded him for his ability to explore. Does his ability to be banished if I have any mythic charges still trigger when he is in my discard pile or only when displayed?

(Sorry, would have exact wording but I don't have the exact wording on me right now.)


I'd say it only applies when it is in your hand at the end of your turn.

To play him, you either recharge him (to reduce damage other than Combat to a character at your location to 0) or discard him (to explore your location). The text about banishing it is a separate paragraph.

Brutalized Flesh Golem wrote:
At the end of your turn, if you have mythic charges, banish this card.

I don't think that should apply when it is in your discard pile any more than it should when it is in your deck. So I'd only apply it when it is in your hand.


Hmm. That's not how I understood it.

I looked at the banish section as similar to sections on other cards which say "Succeed at a x check to recharge this card instead of burying it" or the like.

The powers on the card tell you to do one thing with it (in this case, to recharge or discard it). The section at the end of the card tells you to do another thing with it if the circumstances pertain.


Unless the card tells you otherwise, you only banish cards from your hand. If the card is in your discard or deck, you wouldn't banish it.

EDIT: If the card said "Instead" it would be a different situation, but it doesn't.


Another question about the flesh golem. The only way I see to get it is the item that displays it. However none of the powers on the golem say they are usable while displayed, so how would one get it in their hand to use any of it's powers?


Hmmm...I hadn't looked closely at how you got him, but it seems you are correct. As written, I am not sure how you get him into your hand to play him. I think, for now, I would treat all his powers as "while displayed". Of course, then you have to do something to make him displayed again after you recharge our discard him. So maybe there should also be a power on him that displays him, perhaps automatically when you draw him. I think we'll need some help on this one.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Please hold.


Yet another question on this topic: When you would banish a cohort, you remove it from the game instead. If I remember correctly, the Skinstitcher's Manual has no real purpose other than to summon the golem. So if you have mythic charges when the golem's last power triggers, the Manual becomes pretty much a completely dead card for the rest of the campaign (unless it does something else that I'm forgetting about). Is that the intended effect?

Grand Lodge

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Since the golem is a special type of Cohort (one that you don't start with), it's banishment might also be special.

I'd wait to see if Vic and company have some answers before you assume the golem is gone gone gone.


Ok so i picked up the manual in a game. So do we have an answer on how the golem works? Do you have to display him to ise his powers? What happens if it is banished?
Doesnt seem thematic to not let you make another with the manual.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

You definitely have to display him to use his powers. We're still working out the best way to achieve that.

And if it's banished, like any cohort, it's removed from the game. We're also working out exactly how that should (and shouldn't) happen.

As for theme, one golem per manual is all you're supposed to get.


Vic Wertz wrote:
As for theme, one golem per manual is all you're supposed to get.

I read that description and, since I'm not familiar with the RPG, I'm curious how the theme ties in with the "banish if you have Mythic charge' on the card. Is it because Flesh Golem is a product of 'evil' Necromancy and Mythic heroes cannot condone 'evil' deeds??


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mythic doesn't care what your alignment is. Looking through the RPG description I also don't see why it'd be banished if you have a charge, but not every effect in the ACG ties back to the RPG; I feel this may be one of those cases. Perhaps if you have mythic power left you feel the assistance the golem can provide is not worth your effort beyond the initial task you assigned it but if you are out of mythic power then it's limited assistance is more welcome. Perhaps the golem is more intelligent from normal and slips out of your grasp if it detects you have a lot of power, but if you do not then it sticks around pretending to obey until it has an opportunity to overpower you. Perhaps the designers put it in to balance the cohort without really explaining the fluff behind it so you can let your imagination run wild trying to puzzle it out ;)


Longshot11 wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
As for theme, one golem per manual is all you're supposed to get.
I read that description and, since I'm not familiar with the RPG, I'm curious how the theme ties in with the "banish if you have Mythic charge' on the card. Is it because Flesh Golem is a product of 'evil' Necromancy and Mythic heroes cannot condone 'evil' deeds??

That might have more to do with the golem than the book.


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So next question, What happens if I recharge the manual and use it again? Or, since there are 2 manuals in the box, what if both get played? Do we summon multiple golems?


skizzerz wrote:
Mythic doesn't care what your alignment is.

Uh huh.. Isn't that what the whole AD4 is about with the mine making demons mythic ..

Oh and yeah I was about to ask about the flesh golem. Couldn't get the last part about banish. Similar wondering if the mastiff ends up recharged before end of turn, does the last sentence apply. Kinda felt the sentence still applies no matter where it is - discard/recharge/hand.. Etc .. But waiting for ruling :)


Is there an effect that could actually make Mastiff get recharged once it's been displayed? There aren't many ways to affect displayed cards besides their own powers.


I also acquired Skinstitcher's Manual earlier today and now I don't know what to do with it. Help?


Ditto. We just acquired it and confused over the golem banishing. Use once then throw away..?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Added to FAQ.


Thank you, Vic, this is perfectly clear now!


Vic Wertz wrote:

And if it's banished, like any cohort, it's removed from the game. We're also working out exactly how that should (and shouldn't) happen.

Sorry, for the necro, but we came across this one last night and it sparked (ha-ha!) furious arguments. We're all okay with removing a card from the game for its power (such as the Physical/Mental Prowess Manuals), but half the players can't even believe it's intentional that we get a one-shot cohort which then leaves *two other cards* completely dead in the box!

We know how the situation currently sits RAI, including the FAQ. But has *something* somehow been overlooked? Maybe we were supposed to also banish the Skinstitcher Manuals? I get arguments that having essentially *blank cards* in the box, that can produce no effect at all in perpetuity cannot possibly be a conscious design. And people insisting that the "banish" should've been "return to the box" - essentially making the Golem usable once per game, which seems far more sensible (especially for a Corrupted card, that's supposedly expected to tempt players and stick in their decks).

I guess I'm just looking for an official "the card is currently OK" or "Hey, maybe we overlooked the two 'dead' manuals in the box". Help?


The Golem only gets banished if you screw up. Making a card useless for the campaign because you screwed up seems fine to me.


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Orbis Orboros wrote:
The Golem only gets banished if you screw up. Making a card useless for the campaign because you screwed up seems fine to me.

But it doesn't make sense conceptually - there are two manuals. If you screw up with one, why should the other not work anymore?

Also, cohorts dying / being removed from the game makes sense when it is about named NPCs, but the golem is just a replacable construct. There is no tie in to the story and the manual is randomly found.

Besides, the golem can easily be banished, there is no need to screw up. Imagine the golem is displayed while you don't have mythic charges, and you defeat a mythic henchman / villain.
If you close the location after the fight, you are left at an empty location, have a mythic charge on you and the golem is unavoidable banished, since there is no way to play him (unless you are somehow able to move or generate damage on yourself).
I don't think the intent is to give you the decision between closing the location or losing your golem permanently and make the manuals useless?

The golem would probably make more sense if he was loot and acted more like estras ally honaire from MM in this regard.

I agree with Longshot11 in that the intent seems to be one golem per scenario.

On the other hand, if the intent was to use the manual only a single time, why is it corrupted in the first place and why is it not just removed from the game after playing it?

Also, what happens if a second player plays the manual in the same scenario, but the golem is in the deck of another player?


Doppelschwert wrote:

...

Besides, the golem can easily be banished, there is no need to screw up. Imagine the golem is displayed while you don't have mythic charges, and you defeat a mythic henchman / villain.
If you close the location after the fight, you are left at an empty location, have a mythic charge on you and the golem is unavoidable banished, since there is no way to play him (unless you are somehow able to move or generate damage on yourself).
I don't think the intent is to give you the decision between closing the location or losing your golem permanently and make the manuals useless?
...

I disagree. Aside from the normal screw up ways to banish boons, this is exactly the screw up I envision. The way you should use the golem if you never want to banish it is to wait until you're ready to explore, then display and discard it.

However, should you desire to use its armor ability, you can display it early and gamble that you'll use it by the end of the turn, but if you're wrong, you lose the golem.


While that's a valid point of view, I don't think it makes the card actually desirable by any means. At least, it doesn't tempt me to keep it in the deck that way, even less to waste a redemption on it.


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What could make more sense would be to remove a manual from the game to summon the golem. And if the golem is to be banished he is just returned to the box to be able to be summoned a second time by the other manual. IMHO.
Anyway we play it this way. No need to change the cards.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
The Golem only gets banished if you screw up. Making a card useless for the campaign because you screwed up seems fine to me.

We could argue good and bad design, but going right down to it, telling your players "you made that *one* tactical mistake (or 'screw up', as you put) so we're gonna permanently kill 3 of your cards" - that's not a very positive user experience, imho. It's rather the proverbial stick, rather than the carrot (see the Stat Manuals and Genie Girl from S&S - "Hey, you can lose this card to get a nice upgrade. *We* think it's a good trade off, but you know, it's totally your call!").

To me, making 3(!) cards useless doesn't seem 'fine'. I mean, if at least the Skinstitcher Manuals were also RFG'd - that be bad enough; leaving them in the box to be encountered again - that just feels like *punishment*. (Then again, it's WotR, so maybe I'm on to something...)


Agree with Longshot11 here.

Especially since there's already a precedent of "return this card to the box" that isn't removing it from the game - Vinst says "return this card to the box" rather than banish since Vinst was meant to be used multiple times.

If this type of punishment was warranted, it would be nice to understand why.

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