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I like animal companions as written. When they are run as written I think they are fun and a good part of the game. That said, too much of a good thing isn't good. More than two fighting animals at the table slow things down. Just like multiple PCs using Summon Monster or Summon Natures Ally.
As has been stated, not knowing the AC and Handle Animal rules can make ACs over powered and/or slow down the game.
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I've never really had a problem with other people's ACs, but I built one of my own for the first time and it has kinda gotten away from me. Was a wimpy build until level 7 or so. Then "boom", it turned into a killing machine. I'm learning to back off and not play the character as aggressively. I never realized how destructive a pet build could be.
I agree with the OP's idea of ACs counting as half a character or something. A full table with multiple ACs can often tear through a scenario.
If we have someone who is a jerk and give him an Iconic/Generic PC, he is still a jerk. He can still ruin everyone's dayYou have some people that consider it jerk behavior to do more damage than they do (or in some cases, deal almost as much damage as them) Animal companions are a very easy way to do that.
And we also see in some threads that not doing enough damage can make you a jerk.
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An above example showed a Riddywhipple death. Just curious, how was he brought back? Being unique I assumed any death was a perm. death. Gloves with Breath of life might work.As far as I could tell, due to chronicle not limiting the boon to a 1 time use, you could get him a second time.
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I've never really had a problem with other people's ACs, but I built one of my own for the first time and it has kinda gotten away from me. Was a wimpy build until level 7 or so. Then "boom", it turned into a killing machine. I'm learning to back off and not play the character as aggressively. I never realized how destructive a pet build could be.
I agree with the OP's idea of ACs counting as half a character or something. A full table with multiple ACs can often tear through a scenario.
Having played at the table with you last week, I can certainly attest to the "omg Chance/King went off" factor.
Some ACs are reasonable. Other ACs are crazy. Tables full of them are giant sacks of meat that most encounters can't cleave through.
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I've never really had a problem with other people's ACs, but I built one of my own for the first time and it has kinda gotten away from me. Was a wimpy build until level 7 or so. Then "boom", it turned into a killing machine. I'm learning to back off and not play the character as aggressively. I never realized how destructive a pet build could be.
I agree with the OP's idea of ACs counting as half a character or something. A full table with multiple ACs can often tear through a scenario.
Having played at the table with you last week, I can certainly attest to the "omg Chance/King went off" factor.
Some ACs are reasonable. Other ACs are crazy. Tables full of them are giant sacks of meat that most encounters can't cleave through.
As painful as it would be for a GM, I would really like to get Big Slammu caught up with Chance and King, maybe with Artanthos just for fun..
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As painful as it would be for a GM, I would really like to get Big Slammu caught up with Chance and King, maybe with Artanthos just for fun..I've never really had a problem with other people's ACs, but I built one of my own for the first time and it has kinda gotten away from me. Was a wimpy build until level 7 or so. Then "boom", it turned into a killing machine. I'm learning to back off and not play the character as aggressively. I never realized how destructive a pet build could be.
I agree with the OP's idea of ACs counting as half a character or something. A full table with multiple ACs can often tear through a scenario.
Having played at the table with you last week, I can certainly attest to the "omg Chance/King went off" factor.
Some ACs are reasonable. Other ACs are crazy. Tables full of them are giant sacks of meat that most encounters can't cleave through.
Artanthos has been chillin' at 9. Chance/King are 8, I think? The rate at which you play/GM, I'm sure you can catch up soon. Besides, it's not like my axebeak does much to wreck encounters other than show up and Bodyguard.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm not sure why companions seem to be a problem. I've seen way more parties with actual characters that are far more effective than companions. In my RotRL campaign with a 20th level companion at 16th level, my companion with +23 to hit and a useless 1d8+14 damage was the least effective melee combatant in the party. No, I'm not kidding.
I guess the real trick is companions can be somewhat effective with no optimization. But PC can beat the effectiveness by a wide margin at will if optimized.
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I'm not sure why companions seem to be a problem. I've seen way more parties with actual characters that are far more effective than companions. In my RotRL campaign with a 20th level companion at 16th level, my companion with +23 to hit and a useless 1d8+14 damage was the least effective melee combatant in the party. No, I'm not kidding.
I guess the real trick is companions can be somewhat effective with no optimization. But PC can beat the effectiveness by a wide margin at will if optimized.
It depends on what the AC does and what level it's operating at. For the 3 ACs we MN Pathfinders have been chatting about:
Sellin (Artanthos' axebeak): Bodyguard, Extra Traits (Adopted - Helpful). "I tell Sellin to defend (some melee guy)." Sellin's turn - Move behind the melee guy, Aid Another for AC. Guy gets attacked, Bodyguard triggers, Aids again. Suddenly, that guy has +8 AC for the first attack against him, 3 more Aids available in the round from Combat Reflexes. Artanthos is frequently the melee guy and, sans other buffs, that puts him at 34 AC vs attack 1. Artanthos is a "melee" controller with 30' reach when fully buffed and many, many trips/AoOs.
King (Chance's ape): functions off of Paired Opportunist, Outflank, and Pack Flanking, as well as Chance's keen kukri. Also has Bodyguard/Combat Reflexes. They are a blender.
Slammu's croc (name unknown): lololol death roll
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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So yesterday we finally played Where Mammoths Dare Not Tread, with The Zoo.
We had an actual Hunter/Mammoth Rider, Huntsmaster Inquisitor on a roc (me), old school Summoner, Lunar Oracle with a crocodile, Urgathoa cleric and a Bladebound Hexblade magus with intelligent sword.
First encounter, we see the monsters, the cleric starts salivating at the thought of animating one.
We played the high tier with a 7, 7, 9, 10, 11 party, so with 4-player adjustment. We totally stomped it. Everyone had fun though.
So after that we decided to go and hunt down one of the strong monsters as well. It died on the first round of melee combat.
It was a big zoo but everyone had a good time. And of course the magus out-Nova'd everyone else, but we were all in agreement that we didn't really want the monsters to do their icky things.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Sellin (Artanthos' axebeak): Bodyguard, Extra Traits (Adopted - Helpful). "I tell Sellin to defend (some melee guy)." Sellin's turn - Move behind the melee guy, Aid Another for AC. Guy gets attacked, Bodyguard triggers, Aids again. Suddenly, that guy has +8 AC for the first attack against him, 3 more Aids available in the round from Combat Reflexes. Artanthos is frequently the melee guy and, sans other buffs, that puts him at 34 AC vs attack 1. Artanthos is a "melee" controller with 30' reach when fully buffed and many, many trips/AoOs.
How does that work?
Body Guard allows you to Aid Another in combat to aid their AC. That much is clear.
In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
If instead we go to the combat section...
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character’s skill check.
Multiple character can aid the same friend, but it says nothing about allowing the same person to aid the same target multiple times.
I realize it is an untyped bonus, but I see nothing that indicates this is an exception to the general rules.
Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
I would argue that the repeated Aid Anothers from the Axe Beak are the same source. As I read the rules, they shouldn't stack.
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The only thing I really mind about animals is their AC. I hate wasting enemy turns to "test the waters" only to find thirty-fortysomething every time. I know that they can't hit the pet but that's pure meta.
Other than that, I've seen some powerful melee hitters but most of those types(like the spinosaurus) are banned. The ones that are left need some dedicated gearing and buffing to destroy opponents and I have no problem with that. If you're willing to spend time and money then you should get something for it.
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The reason that animal companions seem overpowered is that they are, at lower levels. It appears to a deliberate design choice, probably to keep animals from dying every encounter the first few levels. Their power tends to even out around 10th level, and they began to lag behind thereafter without serious equipment investment by their owner.
The perceived problem seems worse than it is due to most campaigns (including PFS) ending right about when the animal's power evens out or begins to slip.
My two cents. Your mileage may vary.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I would argue that the repeated Aid Anothers from the Axe Beak are the same source. As I read the rules, they shouldn't stack.
I agree. That said, benevolent armor can make this kind of build extremely impressive. (there was a build on the forums at one point that had a helpful bodyguard mount paired with a helpful bodyguard rider, with benevolent armor and weapons on both, that was aiding for something like +20 AC between the two of them.)
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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So yesterday we finally played Where Mammoths Dare Not Tread, with The Zoo.
We had an actual Hunter/Mammoth Rider, Huntsmaster Inquisitor on a roc (me), old school Summoner, Lunar Oracle with a crocodile, Urgathoa cleric and a Bladebound Hexblade magus with intelligent sword.
First encounter, we see the monsters, the cleric starts salivating at the thought of animating one.
We played the high tier with a 7, 7, 9, 10, 11 party, so with 4-player adjustment. We totally stomped it. Everyone had fun though.
** spoiler omitted **It was a big zoo but everyone had a good time. And of course the magus out-Nova'd everyone else, but we were all in agreement that we didn't really want the monsters to do their icky things.
To be fair, there were only three of the "smaller" things, but there were some extra enemies. I might've overreacted when I said five, but I didn't know exactly how many.
After surviving said Zoo, I honestly think animal companions aren't that big of an issue, as long as people know how to control them. Turns went by pretty quickly because everyone knew what they're capable of, and did the math correctly. I've seen some people take a few minutes just to think about how to best maneuver so you get flanks, etc, and then take a minute to calculate all of your dice rolls. It helps so much when you're mounted and not spread your turn around the battlefield.
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The reason that animal companions seem overpowered is that they are, at lower levels. It appears to a deliberate design choice, probably to keep animals from dying every encounter the first few levels. Their power tends to even out around 10th level, and they began to lag behind thereafter without serious equipment investment by their owner.
The perceived problem seems worse than it is due to most campaigns (including PFS) ending right about when the animal's power evens out or begins to slip.
My two cents. Your mileage may vary.
It very much depends on what you compare them to.
By 10th level standard melee is falling way, way behind the power curve. The move or damage dichotomy that a melee fighter faces is in full swing.
If you can't full attack you're not just losing a minor buff you're losing half or more of your damage. Pounce pets at that level don't have that problem , they're zipping around the map at full speed tearing things apart. I played curse of the riven sky at level 10 and even keeping the velociraptor off of the puree setting he was wading through a spray of blood while the two weapon falcata fighter was just barely getting to the combat and swinging once.
Not only do you lose more damage if you can't full attack, but you can full attack LESS often because rocket tag has come back into play: something is either at full hit points or its dead in round 1. The two round set up of move hit next round full attack happens less often.
The game seems to have been designed with far more static combats than what i actually see.
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Sellin (Artanthos' axebeak): Bodyguard, Extra Traits (Adopted - Helpful). "I tell Sellin to defend (some melee guy)." Sellin's turn - Move behind the melee guy, Aid Another for AC. Guy gets attacked, Bodyguard triggers, Aids again. Suddenly, that guy has +8 AC for the first attack against him, 3 more Aids available in the round from Combat Reflexes. Artanthos is frequently the melee guy and, sans other buffs, that puts him at 34 AC vs attack 1. Artanthos is a "melee" controller with 30' reach when fully buffed and many, many trips/AoOs.How does that work?
Body Guard allows you to Aid Another in combat to aid their AC. That much is clear.
In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.If instead we go to the combat section...
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character’s skill check.Multiple character can aid the same friend, but it says nothing about allowing the same person to aid the same target multiple times.
I realize it is an untyped bonus, but I see nothing that indicates this is an exception to the general rules.
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That is a fair interpretation of the rules and I'm glad I hadn't pulled that out at a table yet. I had been mentally stuck on "may as well bite" heretofore.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Sellin ... Suddenly, that guy has +8 AC for the first attack against him
King (Chance's ape) ... They are a blender.
Slammu death roll
Then you guys are complaining about sub-optimal things.
A local has a Bodyguard build that provides over +20 to AC to adjacent players and has over 60 ac at level 10.
10th level Wild Shape druid can do 81 damage average with 121 max per hit and at 11th level can usually do that on up to 3 hits with FCT.
Deathroll is much of nothing, with PC's doing +30 to Grapple at level 10 or so and getting 3 Grapples a turn or more if they are Maneuver Master Monk's.
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Artanthos has been chillin' at 9. Chance/King are 8, I think? The rate at which you play/GM, I'm sure you can catch up soon. Besides, it's not like my axebeak does much to wreck encounters other than show up and Bodyguard.As painful as it would be for a GM, I would really like to get Big Slammu caught up with Chance and King, maybe with Artanthos just for fun..I've never really had a problem with other people's ACs, but I built one of my own for the first time and it has kinda gotten away from me. Was a wimpy build until level 7 or so. Then "boom", it turned into a killing machine. I'm learning to back off and not play the character as aggressively. I never realized how destructive a pet build could be.
I agree with the OP's idea of ACs counting as half a character or something. A full table with multiple ACs can often tear through a scenario.
Having played at the table with you last week, I can certainly attest to the "omg Chance/King went off" factor.
Some ACs are reasonable. Other ACs are crazy. Tables full of them are giant sacks of meat that most encounters can't cleave through.
That could be a ridiculously good time. Chance and King are on the slow track and only go up a level every couple months. You could easily catch up. Just be prepared for Chance badgering you about joining the traveling circus he wants to start when he is done with this Pathfinder business. He may try to teach your gator to juggle. Haha!
We would have to get a GM that willingly and knowingly volunteered to run that menagerie fiasco.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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Hello! I'm a GM who a) lives in Minnesota and b) adores animal companions. You want a menagerie fiasco run? I'm your gal.
If you guys can agree on a scenario and can make one of the locations I usually run at, I would love to GM a menagerie fiasco for you. :)
We'll have to put up warnings in the Meetup comments so that other players know what they're getting into but I am totally game.
Hmm
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Personally, I don't run druids and other characters with animal companions very often. Actually, I don't think I've ever played a druid. Wizard or sorc with a familiar, yeah maybe. But not druids. That said, I've been playing a spiritualist lately. And yeah, it can slow down combat a little to have another combatant out there. And it can potentially clutter up the battle field. But spiritualists have an advantage over druids and the like. A phantom isn't an idiot. Well, not a complete idiot anyway. And they (usually) have human levels of intelligence.
That's not to say my spiritualist's phantom blindly obeys. She'll do as told, usually, but with much whining and complaining. Or sometimes say "no, you do it! I'm not getting killed, again." :)
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Oh, and I can see how some summoners could REALLY clog up the battle field. If ya take an archtype letting you summon 3 or more medium sized combat critters, that's not nice to the GM.
There are two main tricks to making Summon Monster/Nature's Ally work without causing problems:
1) Keep flash cards with the stats of your favorite summons on hand, modified by any relevant summoning feats. This lets you rapidly flow through turns and it saves you tons of time looking through the bestiary.2) Summon what you need, when you need it. Nobody likes blocked charge lanes, but everybody likes disposable flank partners. Temporary mounts can ferry your clumsy cleric over a lot of hazards. Nevermind the multitude of helpful auras and buffs.
Just don't go crazy. The goal is to aid the team, not hinder them or deny them a chance to shine.
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1) Keep flash cards with the stats of your favorite summons on hand, modified by any relevant summoning feats. This lets you rapidly flow through turns and it saves you tons of time looking through the bestiary.
This is a great idea. I started doing this for my AC character duo. They do so many uncommon things that I made flashcards of all the pertinent feats and rules with reference pages listed at the bottom of most of the cards. I use them to keep myself organized, such as what feats and abilities are active, as well as providing an easy reference for GMs. I forgot to bring them to my last session, but in the previous few they have been super helpful.
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With spiritualists, flash cards aren't so much needed as a whole second character sheet. Seriously, between ability/feat descriptions and what not my spiritualist's phantom has as big a character sheet as the spiritualist himself. But yeah, I can see how flash cards can help.
What about those who's companion is always out or too troublesome to not keep always out? Spiritualists for example take a minute to summon their phantom (or change how it's summoned). It's not till level 6 or so they can bring it out instantly, and then it's a limited number of times.
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With spiritualists, flash cards aren't so much needed as a whole second character sheet. Seriously, between ability/feat descriptions and what not my spiritualist's phantom has as big a character sheet as the spiritualist himself. But yeah, I can see how flash cards can help.
What about those who's companion is always out or too troublesome to not keep always out? Spiritualists for example take a minute to summon their phantom (or change how it's summoned). It's not till level 6 or so they can bring it out instantly, and then it's a limited number of times.
I ended up with 5 (I think) stat blocks for my Spiritualist. Wait, I think it's 6. Plain. Plain in brain. Ecto. Insub. Ecto wrapped. Insub wrapped.
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I ended up with 5 (I think) stat blocks for my Spiritualist. Wait, I think it's 6. Plain. Plain in brain. Ecto. Insub. Ecto wrapped. Insub wrapped.With spiritualists, flash cards aren't so much needed as a whole second character sheet. Seriously, between ability/feat descriptions and what not my spiritualist's phantom has as big a character sheet as the spiritualist himself. But yeah, I can see how flash cards can help.
What about those who's companion is always out or too troublesome to not keep always out? Spiritualists for example take a minute to summon their phantom (or change how it's summoned). It's not till level 6 or so they can bring it out instantly, and then it's a limited number of times.
Hero Lab is your friend in this case. It does all the recalculations for you in real time, and lets you track both your main character and the phantom at once. Switching from "contained in consciousness" to "physical manifestation"? Simply select it in the drop down menu and you're good to go. Same for incorp summons and if the phantom gets taken out (banished to etherial plane).
When running a char like a spiritualist I prefer running it via Hero Lab during the session.