What happens to the Fly spell if you get paralized


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Jeven wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
In my opinion The spell description is clear. The target gains a fly speed. That is all it does. From there, we use the rules for flight, which specify that moving using flight (as all other forms of movement) is a move action. Further more, it is a movement action. You cannot move or act while paralyzed, therefore you cannot take movement action (which includes flying) while paralyzed.
Corrected you there.

This is not a matter of opinion. This is a textbook explanation of exactly how these two things interact. I can't help it if you can't read the spell description (which is very simple) and not put your own spin on it. I am interpreting it as literally as possible. Don't put words in my mouth.


Jeven wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
Jeven wrote:
Johnny_Devo wrote:
As per the general flavor of the game, there are 6 stats. These 6 stats are broken into two sub-categories of stats: "Physical" and "mental" stats. Dexterity falls under the physical category.

Spells can imbue dexterity-based ability though while still being a separate magical force.

The Fly spell could be purely mental with a flying force. The Oracle revelations which work like the Fly spell but add magical wings which would presumably still function if you were paralyzed because paralyze doesn't cancel spell effects. So I think the Fly spell would function like this Oracle power.
Similarly a Broom of Flying provides an in-built Fly Skill bonus, and can fly independently of a rider. Since it is otherwise an inanimate object, the animating magic (similar to a Fly spell) must be a separate magical force independent of the creature/objects own motive power.

The very important points bolded.

The item is irrelevant to said argument because it has explicit statements explaining how it works. Unlike conjecture and belief regarding your opinion on how Fly works, with no actual rules to back it up. Also if you are paralyzed, you are unable to make the item function past your last command, as it is Command Word activated (in the description and by default rules). And most importantly, you aren't flying the broom is.

Being a purely mental action is a very specific concept, when the rules state something it is because those concepts are applicable (or not if an exclusion is made). There is NO such statement made in regards to the Fly spell, and the spell itself references physical statistics for its use in the default rule set.

If someone is going to argue that it is purely mental, by RAW, you need more than "I think it works this way, because it doesnt say it can't".

Yes, its just my opinion and interpretation, so I use indefinite clauses.

As this is a discussion with two rival interpretations...

Let us make it simple then, where do the rules state that movement by the Fly spell is a purely mental action?


Skylancer4 wrote:

Let us make it simple then, where do the rules state that movement by the Fly spell is a purely mental action?

Many spells do function as purely mental actions. I don't think the spell description clearly explains how it works.

Personally (for aesthetic reasons) I would prefer if it required physical action. So I would like to see that clarified with a FAQ update.

el cuervo wrote:
I can't help it if you can't read the spell description (which is very simple)

Don't be condescending. Look at the first post, 35 people have flagged this question as a FAQ candidate. So there are many people who would like the rules clarified.


Jeven wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:

Let us make it simple then, where do the rules state that movement by the Fly spell is a purely mental action?

Many spells do function as purely mental actions. I don't think the spell description clearly explains how it works.

Personally (for aesthetic reasons) I would prefer if it required physical action. So I would like to see that clarified with a FAQ update.

The spell description says it gives the target a fly speed. That is all it needs to say, because the rules for Flying are governed by something other than the spell. You then use the Flying rules for movement. It's that simple.

Jeven wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
I can't help it if you can't read the spell description (which is very simple)
Don't be condescending. Look at the first post, 35 people have flagged this question as a FAQ candidate. So there are many people who would like the rules clarified.

It's easy to make it appear that I was being condescending when you only quote half of the sentence. The full sentence was:

Quote:
I can't help it if you can't read the spell description (which is very simple) and not put your own spin on it.

That bold part is important and entirely changes the meaning from what you took it to mean.


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Jeven wrote:
Many spells do function as purely mental actions. I don't think the spell description clearly explains how it works.

The spell is absolutely clear in how it works: "The subject can fly at a speed of..."

When that's all there is, you just use the rules for flying. Flying is a mode of movement. Generally, movement is accomplished by taking physical actions. There's nothing more specific in the text of the Fly spell, so you use the general rules. There's nothing complicated about it.

What the spell doesn't clearly explain is how some people have made up their minds it should work. That's because they're wrong.


I find it funny that a paraplegic with the fly spell who moves from point a to point b has physically moved, but when he accomplishes the same thing with levitate, it is all of a sudden not physical.

Apparently only levitate breaks the laws of physics where his body can go from one place to another without physically moving.


The movement is obviously physical in both cases. One of them is initiated by a purely mental action, that might not even be your own.


Levitate doesn't grant a fly speed. It allows you to, specifically, mentally direct the recipient of the spell.

Fly grants a fly speed. That's it.

When you use your fly speed to move, you are taking a physical movement action. When you use levitate to move yourself or someone else, you are spending a (non-movement) move action to mentally direct the target to wherever it is you want them to go. There is an enormous gulf separating how those two spells work.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

What happens to the Fly spell if you get paralyzed?
Answer: nothing.

What happens to the recipient of a Fly spell if he/she gets paralyzed?
Answer: he/she gets paralyzed.

Does he/she falls? No.
Does he/she can move around? No, paralysis forbids it.

Is Fly a mental spell? It does not matter.

Could the recipient fly if he/she was not paralyzed and move around? Yes, independently of the number of limbs he/she had.

Paralyzed condition is explicit on what you can do and what you can not do. Can you move? No. Can you do purely mental actions? Yes. Can you do a purely mental action of moving? No, you can not move, even if its only by the power of your mind.

Yoooouuu Shall not pass!


el cuervo wrote:
Jeven wrote:
Let's face it. The spell description is not very clear, which is why there is a discussion about it in the first place.
The spell description is clear. The target gains a fly speed. That is all it does. From there, we use the rules for flight, which specify that moving using flight (as all other forms of movement) is a move action. Further more, it is a movement action. You cannot move or act while paralyzed, therefore you cannot take movement action (which includes flying) while paralyzed.

Um.... Not quite.

Fly Spell wrote:
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet...

You fly at a speed, but you do not gain a Fly Speed. Compare with

Touch of the Sea wrote:
...granting a swim speed of 30 feet...

/cevah


That is a meaningless distinction because the term "fly speed" isn't defined in Pathfinder.


PRD:

Speed wrote:
The creature's land speed, and additional speeds as necessary for the creature.

PRD:

Earth Glide wrote:

When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing the burrowing creature flings it back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Format: earth glide; Location: Speed.

Flight wrote:

A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.

Format: fly 30 ft. (average); Location: Speed.

Jet wrote:

The creature can swim backward as a full-round action at the listed speed. It must move in a straight line while jetting, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity when it does so.

Format: jet (200 ft.); Location: Speed.

Whirlwind wrote:
Some creatures can transform themselves into whirlwinds and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD they have. If the creature has a fly speed, it can continue to fly at that same speed while in whirlwind form, otherwise it gains a fly speed equal to its base land speed (average maneuverability) while in whirlwind form.
Web wrote:
A creature can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.

Whirlwind references it.

Most forms of speed do not say X Speed, but are listed in the Speed tag of the stat block. So *I* think of it as a defined term.

/cevah


Ok, so you're arguing that people using the Fly spell can't take 5' steps then?


I was correcting a quoting error about the spell giving you a speed.
Then I was illustrating that "Fly Speed" is defined.

I don't think *anyone* has said anything about 5' steps yet.

How you get that question is entirely in your assumptions.

/cevah


"You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed. "

If you insist upon Fly not giving you a fly speed, the consequence of that is not being able to take 5' steps. Seems rough.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rogar Stonebow wrote:

I find it funny that a paraplegic with the fly spell who moves from point a to point b has physically moved, but when he accomplishes the same thing with levitate, it is all of a sudden not physical.

Apparently only levitate breaks the laws of physics where his body can go from one place to another without physically moving.

Levitate does not give you a speed of any type, you can't move forward, backward, left or right, it is simply a lowering and raising of height.

And withdraw the snark, just about EVERYTHING in this game breaks physics, so lets keep the science lectures to an absolute minimum.


Skylancer4 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Take a look at Dominate Person.

Try to convince someone that it won't work while you are paralyzed.

There are spells that you control with your mind, and it takes a move action. Dominate Person is one of them. They exist. It's a thing.

If having the spell actually SAY that all it requires is concentration isn't a good enough reason to think the spell is similar to Dominate Person in this regard... I don't know.

Apparently the most obvious explanation isn't always the most obvious.

As for the argument that somehow the Fly skill controls what the spell can do... well... no.

The caster can do things with the spell that don't involve the Fly skill, so the Fly skill isn't applied (why would it be? We aren't USING IT!)

You don't need ranks in Fly to use the spell. You don't need to roll when you are flying.

The skill ONLY comes into play if you want to attempt a difficult maneuver.

I don't roll Acrobatics while walking through a door, so a penalty to the skill won't affect my ability to walk...

Same for Fly. Impose the biggest penalty in the universe to the skill.

It isn't getting used.

Saying that Fly (the spell) requires a 'physical action' CAN'T mean anything other than saying the caster is literally flapping their arms, or gesturing, or performing some other control method that isn't just concentration (like the spell says).

NOWHERE does it talk about anything even remotely like this.

So look at what the spell actually says, stop pulling stuff out of thin air just because you don't like the idea of someone being able to travel in straight lines while naked and paralyzed.

Gotta say though, this discussion is pretty entertaining. Just imagine all the situations where it's relevant: Zero.

Number of instances you've provided actual rules quotes to back up that Fly is purely mental: ZERO

Number of instances you've provided rules that imply that Fly is purely mental: ZERO

Number of examples from published material that might help...

Um... i quoted the actual fly spell. If you want to dig around trying to figure out how its controlled, read the spell.


Can a paraplegic caster with silence and still on fly, fly?

If not, show why.


alexd1976 wrote:
If you want to dig around trying to figure out how its controlled, read the spell.

Read it. It isn't a controlled spell.


The events behind the casting of a spell are wholly independent of the effects of the spell. The parapalegic's ability to cast the spell has no meaning on if he can benefit from it.


LazarX wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:

I find it funny that a paraplegic with the fly spell who moves from point a to point b has physically moved, but when he accomplishes the same thing with levitate, it is all of a sudden not physical.

Apparently only levitate breaks the laws of physics where his body can go from one place to another without physically moving.

Levitate does not give you a speed of any type, you can't move forward, backward, left or right, it is simply a lowering and raising of height.

And withdraw the snark, just about EVERYTHING in this game breaks physics, so lets keep the science lectures to an absolute minimum.

You can go up 10 feet. Down 10 feet. You may accomplish the same thing via fly.

Address my statement instead of trying to sneak around it.


alexd1976 wrote:

Can a paraplegic caster with silence and still on fly, fly?

If not, show why.

That seemed to end the discussion. :D


alexd1976 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Can a paraplegic caster with silence and still on fly, fly?

If not, show why.

That seemed to end the discussion. :D

*ahem*

Johnny_Devo wrote:
The events behind the casting of a spell are wholly independent of the effects of the spell. The parapalegic's ability to cast the spell has no meaning on if he can benefit from it.

In any case, we've already gone over the opposing viewpoints several times over.

It all comes down to this:
-One side believes that "requires only as much concentration as walking" means it's a purely mental action, and thus gets around paralysis.
-The other side believes that it's only comparing to the level of concentration required to take advantage of the spell, and it makes no other exceptions and thus should follow all the other rules of movement.

I, personally, am in the second camp, because if you're going to try and RAW your way through a ruling, exceptions have to be clearly spelled out. There is no exception clearly spelled out that allows you to move while paralyzed.


Demilich casts the fly spell on itself (wants the extra speed). Can it fly using the fly spell?


Of course.


How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?


_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

Not being paralyzed.


Johnny_Devo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Can a paraplegic caster with silence and still on fly, fly?

If not, show why.

That seemed to end the discussion. :D

*ahem*

Johnny_Devo wrote:
The events behind the casting of a spell are wholly independent of the effects of the spell. The parapalegic's ability to cast the spell has no meaning on if he can benefit from it.

In any case, we've already gone over the opposing viewpoints several times over.

It all comes down to this:
-One side believes that "requires only as much concentration as walking" means it's a purely mental action, and thus gets around paralysis.
-The other side believes that it's only comparing to the level of concentration required to take advantage of the spell, and it makes no other exceptions and thus should follow all the other rules of movement.

I, personally, am in the second camp, because if you're going to try and RAW your way through a ruling, exceptions have to be clearly spelled out. There is no exception clearly spelled out that allows you to move while paralyzed.

There is no text in the Fly spell saying that the paralyzed condition negates it.

Paralyze is a general condition.

Fly is a specific spell.

"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking" is published text.

Yes, the words "purely mental" aren't used in the spell, but if you want to apply a literal reading to this, then consider the following:

The feat, 'Martial Weapon Proficiency' does not grant proficiency in the published text, therefor you may not use it as a pre-requisite for any feat calling for 'proficiency'.

Being dead does not prevent you from acting, in fact the ONLY mechanical penalty listed is this:

"Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing"

So. Yeah.

If you want to ignore what the Fly spell says, citing 'no mechanical text/no crunch', then apply the two above things to your game as well.

Yes, I'm serious. You are either rules compliant, or you are not.

Obviously, some things need to be treated with 'common sense' (like my two above examples).

The Fly spell allows you to use it by concentrating (not "concentration", just the english word).

It makes NO mention of physical action. None.

There is a reason for this.

Common sense. Connect the dots, they aren't very far apart.


_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

He doesn't need to do anything other than just fly. Flying is the physical action. Why do people assume that when we say it's a physical action, they need to do something else?

You make your legs move -> you walk -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (which is a magical ability granted by the Fly spell) -> you fly -> physical action.


_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

More importantly, why are we all assuming that 'physical actions' has been defined any more than 'mental actions'?


Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

He doesn't need to do anything other than just fly. Flying is the physical action. Why do people assume that when we say it's a physical action, they need to do something else?

You make your legs move -> you walk -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (which is a magical ability granted by the Fly spell) -> you fly -> physical action.

Can you cite the book/page talking about physical actions please?


Johnny_Devo wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?
Not being paralyzed.

That's begging the question.

If the fly spell is not purely mental, then it must have a physical component. What is that physical component, and how can a creature which has no obvious means of physical activity actually fly using the spell?

Obviously it can't be dependent on arms, legs, or even body motion.

So, what is it? You can't even invoke puffing your breath considering demiliches don't breathe.


Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

He doesn't need to do anything other than just fly. Flying is the physical action. Why do people assume that when we say it's a physical action, they need to do something else?

You make your legs move -> you walk -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (which is a magical ability granted by the Fly spell) -> you fly -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (by riding in a cart) -> you ride (while asleep) -> physical action?

Really?

By changing location on the map, you are obligated to be a)not paralyzed and b)expend actions?

Interesting.

the last step of your example doesn't appear to be connected to the first two steps, please elaborate.

Walking involves using your legs.

Magical flight involves using a spell.

The question isn't whether or not you change position on the map, it is how you direct the speed and direction of a magical effect.


Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

He doesn't need to do anything other than just fly. Flying is the physical action. Why do people assume that when we say it's a physical action, they need to do something else?

You make your legs move -> you walk -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (which is a magical ability granted by the Fly spell) -> you fly -> physical action.

Because that's begging the question. If you don't need to 'do' anything other than mentally will yourself to physically go from one place to another, then it should work while paralyzed, since paralyzed lets you perform mental actions. Assuming that you don't interpret 'paralyzed' to mean magically glued to one spot. If your muscles don't work, it doesn't matter.

For example, if I was using telekinesis, I should still be able to make things 'physically' move with my mind while paralyzed. That doesn't make using TK a 'physical' action, it's still all mental.

If I use my mind to 'physically' move myself, it's still all mental.

Same thing.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

He doesn't need to do anything other than just fly. Flying is the physical action. Why do people assume that when we say it's a physical action, they need to do something else?

You make your legs move -> you walk -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (which is a magical ability granted by the Fly spell) -> you fly -> physical action.

Because that's begging the question. If you don't need to 'do' anything other than mentally will yourself to physically go from one place to another, then it should work while paralyzed, since paralyzed lets you perform mental actions. Assuming that you don't interpret 'paralyzed' to mean magically glued to one spot. If your muscles don't work, it doesn't matter.

For example, if I was using telekinesis, I should still be able to make things 'physically' move with my mind while paralyzed. That doesn't make using TK a 'physical' action, it's still all mental.

If I use my mind to 'physically' move myself, it's still all mental.

Same thing.

Also, if 'paralyzed' prevents your location from changing, being poisoned by Curare would make you immune to bullrush, for some reason.


alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

He doesn't need to do anything other than just fly. Flying is the physical action. Why do people assume that when we say it's a physical action, they need to do something else?

You make your legs move -> you walk -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (which is a magical ability granted by the Fly spell) -> you fly -> physical action.

Can you cite the book/page talking about physical actions please?

Common english. When a physical body propels itself, that's a physical action.

Can you quote the part where using the benefit of Fly is stated to be a mental action?


Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

He doesn't need to do anything other than just fly. Flying is the physical action. Why do people assume that when we say it's a physical action, they need to do something else?

You make your legs move -> you walk -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (which is a magical ability granted by the Fly spell) -> you fly -> physical action.

Can you cite the book/page talking about physical actions please?

Common english. When a physical body propels itself, that's a physical action.

Can you quote the part where using the benefit of Fly is stated to be a mental action?

Absolutely, here it is:

"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking"


I assume that since we are conversing in English, that I don't need to drill any deeper than that.

The spell says what it says.


Me-Hey GM, I want to use a fly spell, can I?

GM-well, nothing is affecting your ability to concentrate on using it, and it only requires as much concentration as walking, so assuming you have the action available, and apply any exiting penalties, I don't see why not!

Me-Great! My naked caster will float away!

Seems legit.


alexd1976 wrote:

There is no text in the Fly spell saying that the paralyzed condition negates it.

"A paralyzed creature cannot move or act."
Quote:


Paralyze is a general condition.

Fly is a specific spell.

Which does not give any specifics on what rules of movement that it overrides, except that you can now fly. Thus, you follow all the general rules of movement, and you follow all the general rules of paralysis.

Quote:


"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking" is published text.

"making an apple pie requires only as many apples as you might have in your kitchen at any time" is not the same as "Making an apple pie requires only apples."

Quote:


Yes, the words "purely mental" aren't used in the spell, but if you want to apply a literal reading to this, then consider the following:

The feat, 'Martial Weapon Proficiency' does not grant proficiency in the published text, therefor you may not use it as a pre-requisite for any feat calling for 'proficiency'.

From the martial weapon proficiency feat: "Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat."

This means that the feat does, indeed, grant proficiency.

Quote:


Being dead does not prevent you from acting, in fact the ONLY mechanical penalty listed is this:

"Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing"

It also says "The character's soul leaves his body."

So when you can provide rules support that a character with no soul can act, the you can, by all means, act while dead.

Quote:


So. Yeah.

If you want to ignore what the Fly spell says, citing 'no mechanical text/no crunch', then apply the two above things to your game as well.

Yes, I'm serious. You are either rules compliant, or you are not.

Obviously, some things need to be treated with 'common sense' (like my two above examples).

The Fly spell allows you to use it by concentrating (not "concentration", just the english word).

It makes NO mention of physical action. None.

There is a reason for this.

Common sense. Connect the dots, they aren't very far apart.

In a combat focused game like this, status effects need to be viewed with a combination of both common sense and adherence to the rules. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what common sense you apply to the interaction, there's no rules support to it and it's something that can adversely affect the balance.

And to reiterate on a point I made earlier this post and to directly address your "ignore what the fly spell says" accusation: "making an apple pie requires only as many apples as you might have in your kitchen at any time" is not the same as "Making an apple pie requires apples only."


That just says how easy it is to fly. As easy as walking.

You concentrate over so slightly, your legs move, you're walking! Physical action.

You concentrate over so slightly, your body moves in any direction you want, you're flying! Physical action.

Cast it on a vermin, say, a scorpion. What happens?


alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

He doesn't need to do anything other than just fly. Flying is the physical action. Why do people assume that when we say it's a physical action, they need to do something else?

You make your legs move -> you walk -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (which is a magical ability granted by the Fly spell) -> you fly -> physical action.

Can you cite the book/page talking about physical actions please?

Common english. When a physical body propels itself, that's a physical action.

Can you quote the part where using the benefit of Fly is stated to be a mental action?

Absolutely, here it is:

"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking"

If anything, that quote shows that the task isn't any more purely mental than walking.


BTW everyone, Move and Locomote are not the same thing.

I can move my finger. I can move my eyes. Neither movement results in locomotion.

Changing position on the combat map can be achieved by movement of your limbs, or any other mode of locomotion, such as being carried on a magic carpet, riding a horse, being transported in a cart, teleportation... Fly...

English, it's what we speak.

The game has adopted the word 'move' for several different conventions, perhaps in an attempt not to confuse younger customers.

If I choose to change my location on the map, by having my character perform an action that makes him change position from where he started to a flanking position on a monster, I have described the action...

Without saying 'move'. Would you, as a GM, be confused by the above paragraph?

Zoom out a bit people, if Fly gave you wings, or required some physical component, it would say so (like any spell that actually gives you extra appendages does).

It does say what it takes to use the spell.

In English.


ErichAD wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

He doesn't need to do anything other than just fly. Flying is the physical action. Why do people assume that when we say it's a physical action, they need to do something else?

You make your legs move -> you walk -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (which is a magical ability granted by the Fly spell) -> you fly -> physical action.

Can you cite the book/page talking about physical actions please?

Common english. When a physical body propels itself, that's a physical action.

Can you quote the part where using the benefit of Fly is stated to be a mental action?

Absolutely, here it is:

"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking"

If anything, that quote shows that the task isn't any more purely mental than walking.

concentration (ˌkɒnsənˈtreɪʃən)

n
1. intense mental application; complete attention


I'm interesting to see how the "mental action" proponents would break down the following situations in terms of action sequences.

Subject A is flying using the Fly spell.

First round: Subject A wishes to fly up to a nearby enemy and attack him with sword.

Second round: After killing the first enemy, Subject A now wishes to use his Spring Attack feat targeting another nearby enemy, flying up to the enemy, attacking it with his sword and finally returning to where he started the round.

Third round: An enemy is now threatening Subject A, and he wishes to take a flying 5' step away from it so he can cast a spell at it from a non-threatened position.

What are the action types Subject A is taking, and what specific action is he taking using those action types?


Alex, you can't prove the OP is wrong, and neither can they prove you're wrong, but they won't even acknowledge the possibility, so continuing is just a waste of time.

Get what's usefull to you from the discussion, and that's it.


alexd1976 wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
How? What physical actions can it actually take to fly?

He doesn't need to do anything other than just fly. Flying is the physical action. Why do people assume that when we say it's a physical action, they need to do something else?

You make your legs move -> you walk -> physical action.

You make your whole body move in 3 dimensions (which is a magical ability granted by the Fly spell) -> you fly -> physical action.

Can you cite the book/page talking about physical actions please?

Common english. When a physical body propels itself, that's a physical action.

Can you quote the part where using the benefit of Fly is stated to be a mental action?

Absolutely, here it is:

"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking"

If anything, that quote shows that the task isn't any more purely mental than walking.

concentration (ˌkɒnsənˈtreɪʃən)

n
1. intense mental application; complete attention

Yes, exactly, little concentration is required. It says nothing about how much physical activity is required at all, just that flying doesn't require much mental activity. Making the leap from not-much-concentration to no-physical-investment in the activity is huge.


Forseti wrote:

I'm interesting to see how the "mental action" proponents would break down the following situations in terms of action sequences.

Subject A is flying using the Fly spell.

First round: Subject A wishes to fly up to a nearby enemy and attack him with sword.

Second round: After killing the first enemy, Subject A now wishes to use his Spring Attack feat targeting another nearby enemy, flying up to the enemy, attacking it with his sword and finally returning to where he started the round.

Third round: An enemy is now threatening Subject A, and he wishes to take a flying 5' step away from it so he can cast a spell at it from a non-threatened position.

What are the action types Subject A is taking, and what specific action is he taking using those action types?

First round, he is using a move action to control his Fly spell, and then using an attack action to attack.

Second round, he is using a move action to control his Fly spell, and using an attack action to attack.

Third round, he does not act, as you merely talked about his wishes, and didn't mention any action being taken.


alexd1976 wrote:

concentration (ˌkɒnsənˈtreɪʃən)

n
1. intense mental application; complete attention

I don't know how many posts ago, I asked since when concentration was a quantifiable thing. Maybe it was in the other thread. I never got an answer, but now it seems you believe it isn't a quantifiable thing.

How do you reconcile that definition with the sentence in the Fly spell? ("Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking")

When I walk, I never feel as if I'm paying "complete attention" to it, nor do I consider it a "intense mental application". I must be a prodigious walker, I guess. Is it really that hard for the rest of you?


alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:

I'm interesting to see how the "mental action" proponents would break down the following situations in terms of action sequences.

Subject A is flying using the Fly spell.

First round: Subject A wishes to fly up to a nearby enemy and attack him with sword.

Second round: After killing the first enemy, Subject A now wishes to use his Spring Attack feat targeting another nearby enemy, flying up to the enemy, attacking it with his sword and finally returning to where he started the round.

Third round: An enemy is now threatening Subject A, and he wishes to take a flying 5' step away from it so he can cast a spell at it from a non-threatened position.

What are the action types Subject A is taking, and what specific action is he taking using those action types?

First round, he is using a move action to control his Fly spell, and then using an attack action to attack.

Second round, he is using a move action to control his Fly spell, and using an attack action to attack.

Third round, he does not act, as you merely talked about his wishes, and didn't mention any action being taken.

I forgot to mention a few things. He didn't cast the Fly spell himself, so it's not "his" Fly spell.

Where does the Fly spell say it takes a move action to control the spell? How can someone take control of a spell they didn't cast themselves? What if it is cast on a mindless creature?

Lastly, Subject A always acts upon his wishes and he does so in that third round. So... I'm very interested to see how the 5' step comes into play.

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