What happens to the Fly spell if you get paralized


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Character using the Fly spell gets paralyzed.
1) His effective strength is zero. Does his encumbrance limit change? Does he crash because the Fly spell encumbrance limit changes?
2) He is limited to mental actions. Can he still cause the Fly spell to move him around or does the "cannot move" from the paralyzed condition take precedence? Can he Hover?

This thread What penalties for a paralyzed creature using a fly spell? came up with this question.

Reference material
Fly Spell
Fly Skill
Paralysis

Pertinent info for Hover Check:

Quote:
Quote:
Can't make Fly checks with a DEX of 0, but with the Fly spell, as long as you keep moving at half or greater speed, you don't need to make checks.

Why not?

If I am a 5th level Wizard with 5 ranks of fly and have the fly spell active, I can hover.
Hover DC = 15
Skill = -5 (Dex) + 5 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 2 (1/2 fly spell) + Take 10 = 15

Pertinent info for Fly Speed:

Quote:
Quote:
What is your fly speed? The spell does NOT grant you that. Contrast the Touch of the Sea that gives you a swim speed.
If you don't have a fly speed, why does the spell give you good maneuverability? That's a meaningless term outside the context of having a fly speed. Certainly it doesn't mean you gain a +4 bonus on Fly skill checks, because that only applies to creatures with a fly speed.

/cevah


As per parent thread...

a) Is Fly mental control or do you have to make gestures/talk? (doesn't mention control other than requiring as much concentration as walking, so it would appear concentration only-no flapping arms or singing to fly).

b) Reduced STR results in crashing into ground, unless caster is carrying literally zero weight.

As far as I know, worn clothes don't count against weight carried.


also, you fly at 60. Not sure why you said it doesn't state a fly speed.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Additional reference material

Paralyzed condition
Helpless condition

(In my opinion, 2 is the really important question!)


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In my opinion, 2) is completely irrelevant because the Fly spell doesn't allow you to fly at all when you're carrying more than your maximum load, which you will be doing if you're not completely naked.


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Fly isn't movement via using telekinesis on yourself. It is flight (which needs checks at times, which implies something other than mental actions) and flying checks are part of other actions typically (movement).

If we take everything out of context I suppose that we can wiggle around what the rules point to, and say flight is purely mental movement.


I would like to see an FAQ that not only answers this questions, but puts a little more into the explanation of status effects and spells such as fly, paralysis, and maybe even stun,


alexd1976 wrote:
also, you fly at 60. Not sure why you said it doesn't state a fly speed.

I assume this stems from a mistaken belief that fly functions like climb and swim speeds which grant something special for having a "swim speed" or "climb speed" rather than a speed derived from your movement speed through skill checks.


Having a fly speed does grant something special, a bonus to the fly skill based on the maneuverability.


Well I guess having a natural fly speed does. I'm not sure how I never noticed that. So the cast version gets a spell caster bonus rather than a maneuverability rating? It looks like having a natural fly speed with average maneuverability and casting the flight spell are both mechanically identical though. You don't get the ability to always take ten for instance.


I really don't care that the spell doesn't say "This spell grants you a fly speed of 60ft" Instead of "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet" as it does now. It's the same, please don't be so narrow and stuck on words.
Unless there ever is a direct reference to requiring a fly speed and that the fly spell is not enough, it really doesn't matter. Though I'd say that the maneuverability supports the idea that you're supposed to interpret the spell as granting a fly speed.

1) I would say that the spell effectevly ends or is suppressed, as paralysis specifically calls out flying with wings as being impossible and thus crashing, not flying in general. Though a part of me wants to say that not being able to fly over maximum load results in a crash as well (this is exactly the kind of nerf casters need, otherwise they're supperior to even birds when it comes to flying).

2)As you descend/crash, no.
As I've understood it, the fly check to hover is to not have to move more than half your speed. If you fail, you need to move. But you can't as you're paralysed and failing the check won't let you. That would just be some stupid catch 22.

EDITED

Sovereign Court

@Cevah: looks like you found it.

- Paralysis reduces your strength to 0.

- 0 Strength reduces your carrying capacity to an undefined number, but less than 7 pounds.

- If your total carried stuff except armor weighs more than that, the Fly spell can't keep you in the air, because it says so.

Oddly enough, you wouldn't get Feather Fall either because the spell is still active.

Silver Crusade

OK, I thought the rule where you have to move at half your speed was when flying using mundane methods such as wings? The fly spell was just levitate with lateral movement allowed? Do I have this mixed up?

In the original D&D game it took minimal concentration to move about when levitating or flying via magic and when paralyzed or unconscious the recipient just hung there until the spell ran out.

I didn't think paralysis reduced your strength to 0, if so then hold person would cause the victim to collapse where they stood.

Sovereign Court

@Jokem: it's in the "paralyzed" section, not the "paralysis" section.

Paralyzed wrote:
Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
Quote:
The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.

Note that this is just for the Fly spell. Someone using magical flight from a different source might stay in the air.

The Fly spell certainly isn't Levitate with lateral movement. If you use Fly spell and don't move at least half your movement, you need to make a Fly skill check not to get into trouble. Levitate doesn't have that.


Based on the assumption that control of the Fly spell is mental, you would not be able to hover (that requires a Fly skill check, which you are not able to make, due to DEX 0).

So as far as I can tell, based on the assumption that control is mental, a naked person under the effect of Fly should be able to continue using the spell as long as they maintain at least half speed.

Someone else pointed out that worn clothes not counting against encumbrance was a rule from 3.5, not Pathfinder... so yeah...

Naked person flying around.

Not likely, but if mental control is how it works, then rules legal.


Rub-Eta wrote:

I really don't care that the spell doesn't say "This spell grants you a fly speed of 60ft" Instead of "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet" as it does now. It's the same, please don't be so narrow and stuck on words.

Unless there ever is a direct reference to requiring a fly speed and that the fly spell is not enough, it really doesn't matter. Though I'd say that the maneuverability supports the idea that you're supposed to interpret the spell as granting a fly speed.

If you had a fly speed, you could use the run action. The fly spell does not give that.

If you have a fly speed, your maneuverability affects your skill. The spell gives 1/2 level instead.

The spell touch of the sea explicitly gives you a swim speed, allows you to take the run action, and so on.

/cevah


Malag wrote:

@alex1976

This is from Dexterity Ability Score description:

"A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."

You cannot perform any Dexterity check. You do not have a penalty, you simply cannot perform such a check. Fly skill, is a Dexterity based skill check in such case and you cannot perform it. Fly spell says nothing about giving a free floating service in the air so whatever happens is GM's call. This pure RAW reading unless I missed something. RAI might be another story.

I have been mistakenly using this persons quote, and their following opinion, as RAW. It is not.

It appears you CAN make Fly skill checks, though at a hefty penalty.

So... with the assumptions that you control Fly spells mentally, and are somehow unencumbered, you may actually Fly normally, assuming you are rolling high enough to make the checks.

I apologize for my misinformation folks. It was not intentional.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jokem wrote:

OK, I thought the rule where you have to move at half your speed was when flying using mundane methods such as wings? The fly spell was just levitate with lateral movement allowed? Do I have this mixed up?

Not mixed up. There is no rule that exempts the fly spells from the general requirement of the half-speed minimum for the flying rules.


Cevah wrote:

If you have a fly speed, your maneuverability affects your skill. The spell gives 1/2 level instead.

You're forgetting that RAW only 'natural' flying is affected by maneuverability.

Also, the Fly spell explicitly gives you Good maneuverability. Which means either:
(a) there is intended to be an extra bonus to your Fly skill on top of 1/2 caster level and the Fly skill rules are poorly edited, or
(b) the Fly spell was poorly edited.


If you can use the fly spell to dislocate yourself from the ground, can you apply the same force against another creature and dislocate yourself from it at the same speed, or push the other creature?

Just saying, "fly", as in with no wings, defying the laws of physics, is a bag of worms you don't wanna mess with.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Cevah wrote:

If you have a fly speed, your maneuverability affects your skill. The spell gives 1/2 level instead.

You're forgetting that RAW only 'natural' flying is affected by maneuverability.

That's not written anywhere.

Quote:

Also, the Fly spell explicitly gives you Good maneuverability. Which means either:

(a) there is intended to be an extra bonus to your Fly skill on top of 1/2 caster level and the Fly skill rules are poorly edited, or
(b) the Fly spell was poorly edited.

The Fly skill can only be taken if you have a natural or "daily means" of flight. The Fly spell uses the Fly skill and grants a maneuverability, effectively giving the Flying wizard a "natural or daily" means of flight. The wizard gains a fly speed of 60, gets Good maneuverability and would use 1/2 CL + Fly Skill + maneuverability bonus.


Kchaka wrote:

If you can use the fly spell to dislocate yourself from the ground, can you apply the same force against another creature and dislocate yourself from it at the same speed, or push the other creature?

Just saying, "fly", as in with no wings, defying the laws of physics, is a bag of worms you don't wanna mess with.

You could fly into someone, sure.

but you wouldn't be able to bullrush them, as being paralyzed prevents you from performing anything but mental actions (such as control of this spell).

So they would get an attack of opportunity on you for entering their square, at a +4 (for being helpless) and your DEX is 0, modifying your AC by another -5.

Would not recommend.

I'm not really sure what you meant by "dislocate yourself from it at the same speed". If you mean move away, yep, that's the purpose of the spell, to move you around.

as for defying the laws of physics, see every spell ever.


Cevah wrote:
If you had a fly speed, you could use the run action. The fly spell does not give that.

I've never found any rules to support that you can run at all when flying.


Forseti wrote:
Cevah wrote:
If you had a fly speed, you could use the run action. The fly spell does not give that.
I've never found any rules to support that you can run at all when flying.

You're right, because you can't run when flying. The Fly skill only allows for movement at the fly speed or to make various Fly maneuvers. These two conversations have become quite diluted with bad information.


You can't run while using the Fly spell because it says so right in the spell.


Forseti wrote:
Cevah wrote:
If you had a fly speed, you could use the run action. The fly spell does not give that.
I've never found any rules to support that you can run at all when flying.

It's under Movement.

You can go x2 (charge), x3 or x4 (run).

They never specify a movement type, because it applies to all of them.

The Fly spell has limitations, which are listed in the spell.


alexd1976 wrote:
You can't run while using the Fly spell because it says so right in the spell.

You can't run while Flying because you are Flying, not Running. Go read the Fly SKILL description AND the rules for Special Movement Types. You cannot run when flying, period.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You can take the run action with any movement speed you possess (exceptions abound).


Ravingdork wrote:
You can take the run action with any movement speed you possess (exceptions abound).

It's ambiguous at best and needs clarification.

My interpretation is that flying has specific rules for movement and you are assumed as always moving at your maximum speed when flying. To not move at least half your flight speed requires a skill check to not lose altitude. So there is no "run" associated with flying, because there's no way to fly faster (flying is really just falling at an angle). Flapping wings doesn't provide speed, it provides altitude. Magically, well, it grants Good maneuverability so whatever abilities come along with that are present.


el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
You can't run while using the Fly spell because it says so right in the spell.
You can't run while Flying because you are Flying, not Running. Go read the Fly SKILL description AND the rules for Special Movement Types. You cannot run when flying, period.

I'm sorry, why did you quote me?

My statement was in no way incorrect.


el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
You can't run while using the Fly spell because it says so right in the spell.
You can't run while Flying because you are Flying, not Running. Go read the Fly SKILL description AND the rules for Special Movement Types. You cannot run when flying, period.

Done.

No mention about limitations on flight speed in either place.


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As far as I know, "running" applies to land based movement and every other kind of movement that specifically allows it.


Forseti wrote:
As far as I know, "running" applies to land based movement and every other kind of movement that specifically allows it.

I would word that more like:

"any form of movement that doesn't specifically disallow it"


el cuervo wrote:
Forseti wrote:
As far as I know, "running" applies to land based movement and every other kind of movement that specifically allows it.
That's how I've always run it. Fly does not specifically allow it (and grants a much higher base speed than other movement types). Imagine if you could "run" (Fly) for 240 feet in a round... ugh.

We allow creatures using their full round attempting to run away to increase whatever movement type they are using. Unless it says otherwise, like in the Burrow ability, where it specifically says they can't charge or run.

No such text is present under the movement type of Fly.


alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
As far as I know, "running" applies to land based movement and every other kind of movement that specifically allows it.

I would word that more like:

"any form of movement that doesn't specifically disallow it"

Let's use some common sense here. Running is a faster walking. You physically exert yourself to run faster than your normal walk speed. You could, then, physically exert yourself to swim at a faster speed by kicking your legs faster and moving your arms faster. You could also physically exert yourself to climb at a faster speed, and this is accounted for in the climb skill by increasing the climb DC.

Let's say you're a bird. When you are flying, you are flying at your Fly speed. Physically exerting yourself when flying won't increase your speed, because wings don't work that way. However, you can physically exert yourself to gain altitude, and that is accounted for in the fly skill -- you must make a check to climb at an angle > 45 degrees. You also must make a check to move more slowly, or to stay in place. However, there is no "run" because you are not using your legs and pushing yourself harder will not gain you any speed.


el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
As far as I know, "running" applies to land based movement and every other kind of movement that specifically allows it.

I would word that more like:

"any form of movement that doesn't specifically disallow it"

Let's use some common sense here. Running is a faster walking. You physically exert yourself to run faster than your normal walk speed. You could, then, physically exert yourself to swim at a faster speed by kicking your legs faster and moving your arms faster. You could also physically exert yourself to climb at a faster speed, and this is accounted for in the climb skill by increasing the climb DC.

Let's say you're a bird. When you are flying, you are flying at your Fly speed. Physically exerting yourself when flying won't increase your speed, because wings don't work that way. However, you can physically exert yourself to gain altitude, and that is accounted for in the fly skill -- you must make a check to climb at an angle > 45 degrees. You also must make a check to move more slowly, or to stay in place. However, there is no "run" because you are not using your legs and pushing yourself harder will not gain you any speed.

Burrow has limitations on speed increases, you can't charge or run.

Fly has no such limitations.

You can choose to ignore that, but don't try to tell me that it's a rule that you can't increase your fly speed.


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The full round action called "Run" in the Combat chapter is clearly intended to apply to land-based running, or "running".

It has specific phrases that can't be applied to other kinds of movement, and makes no reference to other types of movement.


alexd1976 wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
As far as I know, "running" applies to land based movement and every other kind of movement that specifically allows it.

I would word that more like:

"any form of movement that doesn't specifically disallow it"

Let's use some common sense here. Running is a faster walking. You physically exert yourself to run faster than your normal walk speed. You could, then, physically exert yourself to swim at a faster speed by kicking your legs faster and moving your arms faster. You could also physically exert yourself to climb at a faster speed, and this is accounted for in the climb skill by increasing the climb DC.

Let's say you're a bird. When you are flying, you are flying at your Fly speed. Physically exerting yourself when flying won't increase your speed, because wings don't work that way. However, you can physically exert yourself to gain altitude, and that is accounted for in the fly skill -- you must make a check to climb at an angle > 45 degrees. You also must make a check to move more slowly, or to stay in place. However, there is no "run" because you are not using your legs and pushing yourself harder will not gain you any speed.

Burrow has limitations on speed increases, you can't charge or run.

Fly has no such limitations.

You can choose to ignore that, but don't try to tell me that it's a rule that you can't increase your fly speed.

Too late, I already did. You can't.


Forseti wrote:

The full round action called "Run" in the Combat chapter is clearly intended to apply to land-based running, or "running".

It has specific phrases that can't be applied to other kinds of movement, and makes no reference to other types of movement.

Except Swimming, which you actually CAN 'run' with.

So... yeah...


alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:

The full round action called "Run" in the Combat chapter is clearly intended to apply to land-based running, or "running".

It has specific phrases that can't be applied to other kinds of movement, and makes no reference to other types of movement.

Except Swimming, which you actually CAN 'run' with.

So... yeah...

Yes, and it is explicitly stated in the rules for swimming.


alexd1976 wrote:
a) Is Fly mental control or do you have to make gestures/talk? (doesn't mention control other than requiring as much concentration as walking, so it would appear concentration only-no flapping arms or singing to fly).

No, just humming while raining death down from above.


el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:

The full round action called "Run" in the Combat chapter is clearly intended to apply to land-based running, or "running".

It has specific phrases that can't be applied to other kinds of movement, and makes no reference to other types of movement.

Except Swimming, which you actually CAN 'run' with.

So... yeah...

Yes, and it is explicitly stated in the rules for swimming.

*shrugs*

If you want to impose restrictions on how fly speeds work, that's your business.

Seems to me the movement rules a little unclear, you can Run while swimming, but since it doesn't list charge, you can't charge?

Meanwhile, under Burrow, it explicitly says you can't charge, so you can't charge. No confusion there. Limitations are being listed here.

So, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I would think Burrow is the best example of the movement rules. They tell you what you CAN'T do.
In swim, they also talk about the limitation on the run action (must be in a straight line-I thought all running was in a straight line, oh well).

Fly lists no such limitations, despite both Burrow and Swim having them.

there is another example to look at... CLIMBING!

You can't run when CLIMBING! It is explicitly called out as not being an option.

Again, no such limitation is listed under fly.

The restrictions on movement types are there. Flying doesn't have them.

Don't try to argue "It doesn't say you can do it, so you can't"-look at those descriptions. The format rules out options by telling you what you CAN'T do, not by spelling out what you CAN do.

So to recap, can you run using the following movement types:

Swimming-yes, but only in straight lines
On land-yes
Climbing-no
Burrowing-no
Flying-does not say.

Limitations are shown, Fly does not have them.

Make of that what you will.


alexd1976 wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:

The full round action called "Run" in the Combat chapter is clearly intended to apply to land-based running, or "running".

It has specific phrases that can't be applied to other kinds of movement, and makes no reference to other types of movement.

Except Swimming, which you actually CAN 'run' with.

So... yeah...

Yes, and it is explicitly stated in the rules for swimming.

*shrugs*

If you want to impose restrictions on how fly speeds work, that's your business.

Seems to me the movement rules a little unclear, you can Run while swimming, but since it doesn't list charge, you can't charge?

Meanwhile, under Burrow, it explicitly says you can't charge, so you can't charge. No confusion there. Limitations are being listed here.

So, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I would think Burrow is the best example of the movement rules. They tell you what you CAN'T do.
In swim, they also talk about the limitation on the run action (must be in a straight line-I thought all running was in a straight line, oh well).

Fly lists no such limitations, despite both Burrow and Swim having them.

there is another example to look at... CLIMBING!

You can't run when CLIMBING! It is explicitly called out as not being an option.

Again, no such limitation is listed under fly.

The restrictions on movement types are there. Flying doesn't have them.

Don't try to argue "It doesn't say you can do it, so you can't"-look at those descriptions. The format rules out options by telling you what you CAN'T do, not by spelling out what you CAN do.

So to recap, can you run using the following movement types:

Swimming-yes, but only in straight lines
On land-yes
Climbing-no
Burrowing-no
Flying-does not say.

Limitations are shown, Fly does not have them.

Make of that what you will.

Works two ways:

Swimming-yes

Confirmations are shown, Fly does not have them.


Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:

The full round action called "Run" in the Combat chapter is clearly intended to apply to land-based running, or "running".

It has specific phrases that can't be applied to other kinds of movement, and makes no reference to other types of movement.

Except Swimming, which you actually CAN 'run' with.

So... yeah...

Yes, and it is explicitly stated in the rules for swimming.

*shrugs*

If you want to impose restrictions on how fly speeds work, that's your business.

Seems to me the movement rules a little unclear, you can Run while swimming, but since it doesn't list charge, you can't charge?

Meanwhile, under Burrow, it explicitly says you can't charge, so you can't charge. No confusion there. Limitations are being listed here.

So, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I would think Burrow is the best example of the movement rules. They tell you what you CAN'T do.
In swim, they also talk about the limitation on the run action (must be in a straight line-I thought all running was in a straight line, oh well).

Fly lists no such limitations, despite both Burrow and Swim having them.

there is another example to look at... CLIMBING!

You can't run when CLIMBING! It is explicitly called out as not being an option.

Again, no such limitation is listed under fly.

The restrictions on movement types are there. Flying doesn't have them.

Don't try to argue "It doesn't say you can do it, so you can't"-look at those descriptions. The format rules out options by telling you what you CAN'T do, not by spelling out what you CAN do.

So to recap, can you run using the following movement types:

Swimming-yes, but only in straight lines
On land-yes
Climbing-no
Burrowing-no
Flying-does not say.

Limitations are shown, Fly does not have them.

Make of that what you will.

Works two ways:

Swimming-yes

Confirmations are shown, Fly does not have them.

So despite burrow having a listed limitation on charging, and swim not having that shown, you can't charge when swimming?

I'm going with "majority rule" on this: The text in this section of the rules shows the limitations on the movement types more than it shows permissiveness. Fly has no limitations listed regarding increased speed (charging, running etc) so we treat it as not having limitations listed.

If the text in this section of the rules were to focus on what was allowed instead (covering five foot moves, charging, running) then i would likely feel as you do.

But that isn't how it is written.

Ultimately, it boils down to this:

it doesn't say, one way or the other, if you can increase speed while flying (like running in the water allows you to).

The tone of the section is one of exclusiveness, more time is spent listing limitations than it is expounding what you CAN do.

If you want to impose unwritten limitations on something that doesn't list any, when clearly the movement type doesn't have any limitations, that is up to you.

Does anyone else allow Dragons in their game a chance of escaping the PC party, or is it just me?


alexd1976 wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:

The full round action called "Run" in the Combat chapter is clearly intended to apply to land-based running, or "running".

It has specific phrases that can't be applied to other kinds of movement, and makes no reference to other types of movement.

Except Swimming, which you actually CAN 'run' with.

So... yeah...

Yes, and it is explicitly stated in the rules for swimming.

*shrugs*

If you want to impose restrictions on how fly speeds work, that's your business.

Seems to me the movement rules a little unclear, you can Run while swimming, but since it doesn't list charge, you can't charge?

Meanwhile, under Burrow, it explicitly says you can't charge, so you can't charge. No confusion there. Limitations are being listed here.

So, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I would think Burrow is the best example of the movement rules. They tell you what you CAN'T do.
In swim, they also talk about the limitation on the run action (must be in a straight line-I thought all running was in a straight line, oh well).

Fly lists no such limitations, despite both Burrow and Swim having them.

there is another example to look at... CLIMBING!

You can't run when CLIMBING! It is explicitly called out as not being an option.

Again, no such limitation is listed under fly.

The restrictions on movement types are there. Flying doesn't have them.

Don't try to argue "It doesn't say you can do it, so you can't"-look at those descriptions. The format rules out options by telling you what you CAN'T do, not by spelling out what you CAN do.

So to recap, can you run using the following movement types:

Swimming-yes, but only in straight lines
On land-yes
Climbing-no
Burrowing-no
Flying-does not say.

Limitations are shown, Fly does not have them.

Make of that what you will.

Do you even know where these special movement type rules come from? They come from the relevant skill in the CRB. There is no "Special Movement Types" section under Movement in the CRB.

Swim says:

Quote:

(Str; Armor Check Penalty)

You know how to swim and can do so even in stormy water.

Check: Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to half your speed (as a full-round action) or at a quarter of your speed (as a move action). If you fail by 4 or less, you make no progress. If you fail by 5 or more, you go underwater.

If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath. You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to twice your Constitution score, but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his breath only half as long as normal.) After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue holding your breath. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you begin to drown. The DC for the Swim check depends on the water, as given on the table below.

Water Swim DC
Calm water 10
Rough water 15
Stormy water 20*
* You can't take 10 on a Swim check in stormy water, even if you aren't otherwise being threatened or distracted.
Each hour that you swim, you must make a DC 20 Swim check or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from fatigue.

Action: A successful Swim check allows you to swim a quarter of your speed as a move action or half your speed as a full-round action.

Special: A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.

If you have the Athletic feat, you get a bonus on Swim checks (see Feats).

Since the SWIM SKILL has that special section and it is specifically allowed (because Swim is not considered normal movement and the normal movement rules do not apply) then it should be easy to take this to the logical conclusion, and read the FLY SKILL special rules, which DO NOT explicitly grant the ability to use the run action while flying:

Quote:

Fly

(Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
You are skilled at flying, through either the use of wings or magic, and can perform daring or complex maneuvers while airborne. Note that this skill does not give you the ability to fly.

Check: You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed. It can also turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees, and can descend at any angle at normal speed. Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check. The difficulty of these maneuvers varies depending upon the maneuver you are attempting, as noted on the following chart.

Flying Maneuver Fly DC
Move less than half speed and remain flying 10
Hover 15
Turn greater than 45° by spending 5 feet of movement 15
Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement 20
Fly up at greater than 45° angle 20
Attacked While Flying: You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature's movement.

Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.

Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.

High Wind Speeds: Flying in high winds adds penalties on your Fly checks as noted on Table: Wind Effects on Flight. “Checked” means that creatures of that size or smaller must succeed on a DC 20 Fly check to move at all so long as the wind persists. “Blown away” means that creatures of that size or smaller must make a DC 25 Fly check or be blown back 2d6 × 10 feet and take 2d6 points of nonlethal damage. This check must be made every round the creature remains airborne. A creature that is blown away must still make a DC 20 Fly check to move due to also being checked.

Table: Wind Effects on Flight
Wind Force Wind Speed Checked Size Blown Away Size Fly Penalty
Light 0–10 mph — — —
Moderate 11–20 mph — — —
Strong 21–30 mph Tiny — –2
Severe 31–50 mph Small Tiny –4
Windstorm 51–74 mph Medium Small –8
Hurricane 75–174 mph Large Medium –12
Tornado 175+ mph Huge Large –16
Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.

Try Again: Varies. You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds. If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage (see Environment).

Special: A spellcaster with a bat familiar gains a +3 bonus on Fly checks.

Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Fly checks depending on its size category: Fine +8, Diminutive +6, Tiny +4, Small +2, Large –2, Huge –4, Gargantuan –6, Colossal –8.

You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability).

If you have the Acrobatic feat, you get a bonus on Fly checks (see Feats).

It doesn't say anything about using the run action, unlike Swim, which grants it explicitly.

Burrow doesn't even apply here because there isn't a Burrow skill and has it's own separate rules under the relevant Spell and Universal Monster Rules.


el cuervo, you seem to be getting upset about this.

You don't think that flying creatures can increase their speed, I get that.

We don't see eye to eye on this.

There is more pointing towards an exclusive point of view than there is to an inclusive one.

You are arguing an inclusive one, so you have less text to refer to.

Based on this, I have chosen to allow flying creatures to charge and run in my games.

the Diving Charge feat allows you to deal extra damage from the back of a flying mount, and also doesn't go into any detail about restrictions (or permissions) on flying speeds... perhaps because the assumption, as has been asserted before, is that flight and ground movement are essentially treated the same way.

There are HUNDREDS of threads related to flight and flight-affected maneuvers, and only lately have I seen someone assert that a fly speed is a limit, not a base.

I've made my case, and we have wandered far off target from the purpose of this thread, so will choose to remain silent on whether or not you can charge/run while flying.


alexd1976 wrote:

el cuervo, you seem to be getting upset about this.

You don't think that flying creatures can increase their speed, I get that.

We don't see eye to eye on this.

There is more pointing towards an exclusive point of view than there is to an inclusive one.

You are arguing an inclusive one, so you have less text to refer to.

Based on this, I have chosen to allow flying creatures to charge and run in my games.

the Diving Charge feat allows you to deal extra damage from the back of a flying mount, and also doesn't go into any detail about restrictions (or permissions) on flying speeds... perhaps because the assumption, as has been asserted before, is that flight and ground movement are essentially treated the same way.

There are HUNDREDS of threads related to flight and flight-affected maneuvers, and only lately have I seen someone assert that a fly speed is a limit, not a base.

I've made my case, and we have wandered far off target from the purpose of this thread, so will choose to remain silent on whether or not you can charge/run while flying.

Seriously? The feat you just referenced is from third party materials and has literally no bearing on this conversation.

Dark Archive

el cuervo wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Cevah wrote:

If you have a fly speed, your maneuverability affects your skill. The spell gives 1/2 level instead.

You're forgetting that RAW only 'natural' flying is affected by maneuverability.
That's not written anywhere.

PFSRD Fly Skill:
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability.

If you do not have a natural fly speed you don't get a bonus or penalty on Fly checks. Not sure why the spell gives you good maneuverability then, since it shouldn't do anything.


el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

el cuervo, you seem to be getting upset about this.

You don't think that flying creatures can increase their speed, I get that.

We don't see eye to eye on this.

There is more pointing towards an exclusive point of view than there is to an inclusive one.

You are arguing an inclusive one, so you have less text to refer to.

Based on this, I have chosen to allow flying creatures to charge and run in my games.

the Diving Charge feat allows you to deal extra damage from the back of a flying mount, and also doesn't go into any detail about restrictions (or permissions) on flying speeds... perhaps because the assumption, as has been asserted before, is that flight and ground movement are essentially treated the same way.

There are HUNDREDS of threads related to flight and flight-affected maneuvers, and only lately have I seen someone assert that a fly speed is a limit, not a base.

I've made my case, and we have wandered far off target from the purpose of this thread, so will choose to remain silent on whether or not you can charge/run while flying.

Seriously? The feat you just referenced is from third party materials and has literally no bearing on this conversation.

Oh I didn't clarify why I did that.

It's another example of what you are trying to base your argument on, saying that if it doesn't say you can, then you can't. This is not always true:

The section of rules being discussed (movement types) is clearly written to show limitations, not permissions. That feat, like so much other content, is entirely silent about the differences between flight and ground movement, because there aren't really supposed to be any! Sure it's up and down, but the rules aren't any different other than what they list!

Frankly, I'm just tired of this, it's pretty much degraded to you and me screaming at each other at the top of our internet lungs.

You do it your way, I'll do it mine.


LuniasM wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Cevah wrote:

If you have a fly speed, your maneuverability affects your skill. The spell gives 1/2 level instead.

You're forgetting that RAW only 'natural' flying is affected by maneuverability.
That's not written anywhere.

** spoiler omitted **

If you do not have a natural fly speed you don't get a bonus or penalty on Fly checks. Not sure why the spell gives you good maneuverability then, since it shouldn't do anything.

Probably a 3.5 remnant that was missed in editing.

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