What happens to the Fly spell if you get paralized


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alexd1976 wrote:
That feat, like so much other content, is entirely silent about the differences between flight and ground movement, because there aren't really supposed to be any! Sure it's up and down, but the rules aren't any different other than what they list!

The "Run" rules only refer to land movement because every other type of movement has its own section in the rules.

The closing sentence makes it very obvious to me that the whole section was just about "running" as humans do. ("A run represents a speed of about 13 miles per hour for an unencumbered human.")


Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
That feat, like so much other content, is entirely silent about the differences between flight and ground movement, because there aren't really supposed to be any! Sure it's up and down, but the rules aren't any different other than what they list!

The "Run" rules only refer to land movement because every other type of movement has its own section in the rules.

The closing sentence makes it very obvious to me that the whole section was just about "running" as humans do. ("A run represents a speed of about 13 miles per hour for an unencumbered human.")

I have applied all the listed restriction to all the methods of travel listed in the fashion they were printed.

Have you?

Sounds to me like you are putting restrictions on a movement type without any sort of precedent to do so.

They LIST the restrictions already.

Fly doesn't have any. Burrow does, Climb does. None for Fly.

You can run in the WATER, why should air be any more difficult?


this even talks about how the game treats 2d and 3d combat as essentially the same.

People keep trying to inject complexity into a scenario that has none.


alexd1976 wrote:

It's another example of what you are trying to base your argument on, saying that if it doesn't say you can, then you can't. This is not always true:

The section of rules being discussed (movement types) is clearly written to show limitations, not permissions. That feat, like so much other content, is entirely silent about the differences between flight and ground movement, because there aren't really supposed to be any! Sure it's up and down, but the rules aren't any different other than what they list!

That section that you are referring to doesn't exist in the CRB. It is a conflation of several rules from several different sources (and it says so right under the section header on d20pfsrd). The rules for Fly are listed only under the Fly skill. The rules for Swim are listed only under the Swim skill. The text under Swim grants the Run action explicitly to creatures with a Swim speed. The text under Fly does not. If we are using Swim as a basis then Fly should also explicitly state that creatures with a fly speed can use the "run" movement action. It doesn't, so we are left to surmise that you cannot use the "run" action when flying, which fits both logically based on the language used and thematically.


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el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
As far as I know, "running" applies to land based movement and every other kind of movement that specifically allows it.

I would word that more like:

"any form of movement that doesn't specifically disallow it"

Let's use some common sense here.

No. "Common sense" does NOT override the rules. That way lies madness.


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alexd1976 wrote:

I have applied all the listed restriction to all the methods of travel listed in the fashion they were printed.

Have you?

Sounds to me like you are putting restrictions on a movement type without any sort of precedent to do so.

They LIST the restrictions already.

Fly doesn't have any. Burrow does, Climb does. None for Fly.

You can run in the WATER, why should air be any more difficult?

And yet you conveniently forget that swimming has a confirmation in it.

Every movement type either has a restriction or confirmation, except flying.

There's no reason to assume that Fly falls with the "allowed running" group instead of with the "denied running" group. That assumption is based on nothing.

There is however a straightforward reason to assume it falls in the "denied running" group: the Run action is specifically referring to land based running so nothing can be inferred from it with regard to other types of movement. And there's no need to make any inferences to begin with, because every type of movement has its own explicit rules.


MeanMutton wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
As far as I know, "running" applies to land based movement and every other kind of movement that specifically allows it.

I would word that more like:

"any form of movement that doesn't specifically disallow it"

Let's use some common sense here.
No. "Common sense" does NOT override the rules. That way lies madness.

It's one thing to override a rule using common sense. It's another thing entirely to abstract an ambiguous rule and apply common sense in order to interpret it within a context in which it does make sense. My abstraction of the flight rules is perfectly in line with the intent of the rules.

As for running during flight, until a dev steps in and says otherwise I'm going with no, you cannot run during flight.


el cuervo wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
As far as I know, "running" applies to land based movement and every other kind of movement that specifically allows it.

I would word that more like:

"any form of movement that doesn't specifically disallow it"

Let's use some common sense here.
No. "Common sense" does NOT override the rules. That way lies madness.

It's one thing to override a rule using common sense. It's another thing entirely to abstract an ambiguous rule and apply common sense in order to interpret it within a context in which it does make sense. My abstraction of the flight rules is perfectly in line with the intent of the rules.

As for running during flight, until a dev steps in and says otherwise I'm going with no, you cannot run during flight.

Your approach is totally valid, I understand your reasoning. I usually rule in favor of a conservative ruling as well.

I don't agree with it because it doesn't seem the rules on movement were written in such a way with this approach in mind.

Most of the text in the movement types deals with restrictions, not with allowances, so the fact that fly is silent (to me) implies a permissive approach.

You are totally entitled to take a restrictive approach in this situation, though I don't think it is required.

Even if you allowed running to modify flight speeds (as it does swimming), what difference would that make?

Is a half-dragon really faster on foot than in the air?
Literally twice as fast on foot, if fly is a maximum speed...

Encumbered humans can outrun eagles?

Doesn't seem right to me.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:
Seems to me the movement rules a little unclear, you can Run while swimming, but since it doesn't list charge, you can't charge?

That's correct, unless you have an actual swim speed, as opposed to just using the Swim skill, you can't charge.


alexd1976 wrote:

Encumbered humans can outrun eagles?

Doesn't seem right to me.

And they can't. With a double move at speed 80 eagles easily come out on top.


Ok so this topic is getting derailed very fast. We either need to agree to disagree or make a new thread so that this thread (the one that purposed the question "can the fly spell allow you to fly while paralyzed") can actually be answered. Climb and burrow limit ability to run/charge by outright denying it implying that exceptions need to be called out, while swim specifically permits it imply that text needs to allow it for it to happen. If you follow swim then flying can't run, if you follow burrow then fly can run.


Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Encumbered humans can outrun eagles?

Doesn't seem right to me.

And they can't. With a double move at speed 80 eagles easily come out on top.

*sigh*

Okay, a human carrying 80lbs of rocks isn't as fast as an eagle.

Unencumbered human, with Fleet and Run (first level commoner).
Base speed 35, run speed 175.

Faster than an eagle?

An eagle that can go 120kph?

Just google it.

Eagles can go 120kph, they GLIDE at 56-70kph
Humans top out at 44kph, that's Usain Bolt, btw.

Humans can't outrun eagles, their CRUISING speed is faster than our TOP speed.

If we want to bring common sense into it, lets do that!


Alex, I completely agree with you but you make the most convoluted examples :-p

hawks have a flight speed of 60. double move=120 which is what every human can run. This implies that without any feats or class levels or magic humans are as fast as hawks. That is ridiculous. That being said, real world =/= game world.

In the game world: please look at the demon shadow from the PF bestiary. Not a numbered beastiary, not an AP, core book from 6 years ago. Pounce on a creature with only a fly speed. So fly can charge despite never listing it's ability to do so. Can we all pretend that the same thing applies to running and just house rule however we like in our home games?


alexd1976 wrote:
Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Encumbered humans can outrun eagles?

Doesn't seem right to me.

And they can't. With a double move at speed 80 eagles easily come out on top.

*sigh*

Okay, a human carrying 80lbs of rocks isn't as fast as an eagle.

Unencumbered human, with Fleet and Run (first level commoner).
Base speed 35, run speed 175.

Faster than an eagle?

An eagle that can go 120kph?

Just google it.

Eagles can go 120kph, they GLIDE at 56-70kph
Humans top out at 44kph, that's Usain Bolt, btw.

Humans can't outrun eagles, their CRUISING speed is faster than our TOP speed.

If we want to bring common sense into it, lets do that!

Allowing running with flight doesn't fix that. Running isn't sustainable. Your human that's optimized for running will outrun the Pathfinder eagle for a little while and then need rest.

Allowing running with flight doesn't fix the Pathfinder eagle's speed issue, because it wouldn't give the eagle sustained speed either. Eagles in Pathfinder obviously aren't the same birds as on our earth. the issue is with the Bestiary, not the movement rules.


Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Encumbered humans can outrun eagles?

Doesn't seem right to me.

And they can't. With a double move at speed 80 eagles easily come out on top.

Eagles have a Fly Speed of 80.

If Fly Speed is limited to Hustle, they can move 320/round
If Fly Speed is limited to Move, they move 160/round
Encumbered Human has a move of 20
Running can be X4, thus move at 160/round (double move)

Encumbered Human can keep up with a Moving Eagle.

Human w/Boots of Springing and Leaping moves at 40
Running, gets 320/round

Booted Human keeps up with Hustling Eagle, and smokes a Moving Eagle

/cevah

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Eagles aren't exactly known as the speed demons of birds they don't really have to be since they're scavengers as much as predators. You've got them confused with Falcons and Hawks.


Wow. Just wow. People here really think humans are faster than eagles? I can do no good here.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cevah wrote:
Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Encumbered humans can outrun eagles?

Doesn't seem right to me.

And they can't. With a double move at speed 80 eagles easily come out on top.

Eagles have a Fly Speed of 80.

If Fly Speed is limited to Hustle, they can move 320/round
If Fly Speed is limited to Move, they move 160/round
Encumbered Human has a move of 20
Running can be X4, thus move at 160/round (double move)

Encumbered Human can keep up with a Moving Eagle.

Human w/Boots of Springing and Leaping moves at 40
Running, gets 320/round

Booted Human keeps up with Hustling Eagle, and smokes a Moving Eagle

/cevah

Running is a full round action. so a running encumbered Human has 60 at best. (you only get 3x speed when encumbered)


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
el cuervo wrote:
Physically exerting yourself when flying won't increase your speed, because wings don't work that way.

I'm fairly certain this is incorrect. I've observed hawks and other birds of prey casually flying (not necessarily gliding) all the time. I've also observed them picking up the pace when they get aerial prey within their sights.

Flying through the air faster through physical exertion is as logical as swimming through water faster. There may be a drop off point where the amount of exertion isn't worth the speed gain, but the point is, you can still make yourself move faster through the extra exertion.


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Ravingdork wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
Physically exerting yourself when flying won't increase your speed, because wings don't work that way.

I'm fairly certain this is incorrect. I've observed hawks and other birds of prey casually flying (not necessarily gliding) all the time. I've also observed them picking up the pace when they get aerial prey within their sights.

Flying through the air faster through physical exertion is as logical as swimming through water faster. There may be a drop off point where the amount of exertion isn't worth the speed gain, but the point is, you can still make yourself move faster through the extra exertion.

They adjust speed by changing wing shape, and are restricted in what shapes their wings can take based on wing type. It's a very different sort of thing than putting more energy in to go faster like legs.

or thats what my daughter's animal shows tell me.


LazarX wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Encumbered humans can outrun eagles?

Doesn't seem right to me.

And they can't. With a double move at speed 80 eagles easily come out on top.

Eagles have a Fly Speed of 80.

If Fly Speed is limited to Hustle, they can move 320/round
If Fly Speed is limited to Move, they move 160/round
Encumbered Human has a move of 20
Running can be X4, thus move at 160/round (double move)

Encumbered Human can keep up with a Moving Eagle.

Human w/Boots of Springing and Leaping moves at 40
Running, gets 320/round

Booted Human keeps up with Hustling Eagle, and smokes a Moving Eagle

/cevah

Running is a full round action. so a running encumbered Human has 60 at best. (you only get 3x speed when encumbered)

OK. Forgot X3 not X4. That makes it 120/round, not 60/round. Remember, you get a move & standard in a round, so a double encumbered move is 40/round. Encumbered running at X3 is 120, not 60/round.

/cevah


Encumbered running is not 4 (or 3, or 5) times a double move. It's 4 (or 3, or 5) times your movement speed, as a full-round action.


PRD:

Movement wrote:

Walk: A walk represents unhurried but purposeful movement (3 miles per hour for an unencumbered adult human).

Hustle: A hustle is a jog (about 6 miles per hour for an unencumbered human). A character moving his speed twice in a single round, or moving that speed in the same round that he or she performs a standard action or another move action, is hustling when he or she moves.

Run (×3): Moving three times speed is a running pace for a character in heavy armor (about 7 miles per hour for a human in full plate).

Run (×4): Moving four times speed is a running pace for a character in light, medium, or no armor ( about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human, or 9 miles per hour for a human in chainmail) See Table: Movement and Distance for details.

Table: Movement and Distance
Speed .. 15 feet .. 20 feet .. 30 feet .. 40 feet
One Round (Tactical)*
Walk .. 15 ft. .. 20 ft. .. 30 ft. .. 40 ft.
Hustle .. 30 ft. .. 40 ft. .. 60 ft. .. 80 ft.
Run (×3) .. 45 ft. .. 60 ft. .. 90 ft. .. 120 ft.
Run (×4) .. 60 ft. .. 80 ft. .. 120 ft. .. 160 ft.

I think part of the problem is thinking that the Base Speed is Walking Speed. According to the PRD, it is not.

Therefore, a Base Speed 20, encumbered, runs at 60

A booted* unencumbered Base Speed 40 runs at 160
*[Boots of Springing and Jumping, or other 10' bonus like Travel Domain]

You can still keep up with the hustling eagle, and smoke one just flying.

/cevah


You can keep up with it for little over a minute.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
ErichAD wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
Physically exerting yourself when flying won't increase your speed, because wings don't work that way.

I'm fairly certain this is incorrect. I've observed hawks and other birds of prey casually flying (not necessarily gliding) all the time. I've also observed them picking up the pace when they get aerial prey within their sights.

Flying through the air faster through physical exertion is as logical as swimming through water faster. There may be a drop off point where the amount of exertion isn't worth the speed gain, but the point is, you can still make yourself move faster through the extra exertion.

They adjust speed by changing wing shape, and are restricted in what shapes their wings can take based on wing type. It's a very different sort of thing than putting more energy in to go faster like legs.

or thats what my daughter's animal shows tell me.

So they CAN adjust their speeds then. The method being different is rather inconsequential.


Being able to adjust their speeds was never in question. They can move 1/16th of their speed if they make a skill check to hover. They can move 13/16ths of their speed without any complication. They can even move their full speed. But they can't run.


@Forseti: you never answered how a creature that only has a fly speed could pounce if you can't charge while flying.


Since I never claimed flying creatures couldn't charge, I didn't think that was addressed to me.


to be fair, charging doesn't obligate you to move 2x distance, you just have to move 10ft, and MAY move up to 2x distance.

Okay, I picked a bad example initially by saying an encumbered human could outrun an eagle. I get it.

Lets go back to the numbers I listed earlier though. I'm going to put this in the form of a series of questions, and you guys can quote me and reply to them in order, okay? Or just put the numbers and your answers... this sort of turned into a wall of text, and for that I am sorry.

Putting the game aside for a second... (I know I know...)

1-do you believe Usain Bolt is the fastest recorded person on earth, with a top speed of 44kph?

2-Do you believe that the average flight speed of an eagle is @50-70kph? (hint, it is).

3-Using those numbers, do you believe a human can outrun an eagle?

So start with those... Then go back to the game:

4-Do you believe that a full grown Red Dragon actually has a top flight speed of only 72kph? (this is using both actions to move with a base move of 200 fly).

5-Do you believe an eagles top speed should be 28kph, because that is what a move of 80 gives you if they can't go faster than that. This is literally slower than the average person on the street today. This is also almost exactly 1/4 their top speed of 120kph. Hmmm...

So, we see that eagles IRL can go up to 120kph, and that to reach speeds like that in game, they would have to be able to RUN, otherwise they are cruising around at speeds some senior citizens can achieve.

6-Do you still think flying creatures can't run?

Limiting the flight speed of flying creatures so that they can't use the options available to the ground-folk assumes that the game designers gave speeds of 25% the normal maximum, ACROSS THE BOARD.

That is one heck of a series of mistakes. I think they are more educated than that, I think you all are too.


But this thread is supposed to be about whether or not you can fly while paralyzed.

I say yes.

People want to argue that Fly doesn't list a control method, I say it does.

It does say it requires concentration. As much concentration as... I'm ending the quote there, because what comes after doesn't matter.

As much concentration as juggling? so you need free hands? NO! Concentration is a mental act!

As much concentration as doing cartwheels? So your entire body has to be able to move? NO! Concentration is a mental act!

As much concentration as kicking? So your legs have to be free and able to move? NO! Concentration is a mental act!

"As much concentration". I don't understand how people can think this has no bearing on the spell. It was written in there to SHOW you what type of control Fly takes.

It doesn't say anything about free hands, being able to move your limbs... It DOES say it requires concentration.

Can Stephen Hawking concentrate on something? I'm pretty sure he can.

Have you ever concentrated on something while lying in bed, or on the beach? Did you have to get up and start running around to do it?

Of course not.

Now, obviously if you get paralyzed while under the effects of Fly, you better be near the ground, or naked... cause STR 0 means immediate CRUNCHY SPLATTY DEATH if you are high up. :D

Of course, using lex parsimoniae doesn't seem to go over well around here... let's see what you guys think.


alexd1976 wrote:

to be fair, charging doesn't obligate you to move 2x distance, you just have to move 10ft, and MAY move up to 2x distance.

Okay, I picked a bad example initially by saying an encumbered human could outrun an eagle. I get it.

Lets go back to the numbers I listed earlier though. I'm going to put this in the form of a series of questions, and you guys can quote me and reply to them in order, okay? Or just put the numbers and your answers... this sort of turned into a wall of text, and for that I am sorry.

Putting the game aside for a second... (I know I know...)

1-do you believe Usain Bolt is the fastest recorded person on earth, with a top speed of 44kph?

2-Do you believe that the average flight speed of an eagle is @50-70kph? (hint, it is).

3-Using those numbers, do you believe a human can outrun an eagle?

So start with those... Then go back to the game:

4-Do you believe that a full grown Red Dragon actually has a top flight speed of only 72kph? (this is using both actions to move with a base move of 200 fly).

5-Do you believe an eagles top speed should be 28kph, because that is what a move of 80 gives you if they can't go faster than that. This is literally slower than the average person on the street today. This is also almost exactly 1/4 their top speed of 120kph. Hmmm...

So, we see that eagles IRL can go up to 120kph, and that to reach speeds like that in game, they would have to be able to RUN, otherwise they are cruising around at speeds some senior citizens can achieve.

6-Do you still think flying creatures can't run?

Limiting the flight speed of flying creatures so that they can't use the options available to the ground-folk assumes that the game designers gave speeds of 25% the normal maximum, ACROSS THE BOARD.

That is one heck of a series of mistakes. I think they are more educated than that, I think you all are too.

I believe that many animals as described in the bestiaries have flight speeds not in line with the real world animal they represent.

That's an issue with the bestiaries, not with the movement rules.

Having said that, I do feel those low speeds are probably a lot closer to realistic speeds if you consider them only for "tactical" movement. 120 kph isn't a speed an eagle will achieve at low altitudes while making sharp turns every few seconds.


But it's okay for a person on foot to go faster than an eagle?

Why the huge disconnect between what is real and how it is represented in the game?

Falling back to saying the Bestiary is wrong doesn't seem logical to me...

I think the bestiaries nailed it, I think people who limit fly speeds are doing it wrong.

Ah well, as some people have mentioned, there are no rules explicitly calling out flying creatures as being able to run.

There are also no rules explicitly calling out flying creatures as being able cast spells.

So I guess they can't do that either.

Same logic. Different argument.


alexd1976 wrote:

But it's okay for a person on foot to go faster than an eagle?

Why the huge disconnect between what is real and how it is represented in the game?

Falling back to saying the Bestiary is wrong doesn't seem logical to me...

I think the bestiaries nailed it, I think people who limit fly speeds are doing it wrong.

It's not people, it's the rules.

alexd1976 wrote:

Ah well, as some people have mentioned, there are no rules explicitly calling out flying creatures as being able to run.

There are also no rules explicitly calling out flying creatures as being able cast spells.

So I guess they can't do that either.

Same logic. Different argument.

Nonsense.


Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

But it's okay for a person on foot to go faster than an eagle?

Why the huge disconnect between what is real and how it is represented in the game?

Falling back to saying the Bestiary is wrong doesn't seem logical to me...

I think the bestiaries nailed it, I think people who limit fly speeds are doing it wrong.

It's not people, it's the rules.

alexd1976 wrote:

Ah well, as some people have mentioned, there are no rules explicitly calling out flying creatures as being able to run.

There are also no rules explicitly calling out flying creatures as being able cast spells.

So I guess they can't do that either.

Same logic. Different argument.

Nonsense.

Please expand.

If the argument about flying speed is that it can't do things unless written as being able to do them, then the argument is that you can't take actions unless the book says so.

It never says flying creatures can run.
It never says flying creatures can cast spells either.

Equally logical, equally ridiculous.

What else can't flying creatures do? Hmmm...


alexd1976 wrote:


It never says flying creatures can cast spells either.

Equally logical, equally ridiculous.

What else can't flying creatures do? Hmmm...

PRD- "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. "

I think more reading of the PRD would help in this discussion.


alexd1976 wrote:

Please expand.

If the argument about flying speed is that it can't do things unless written as being able to do them, then the argument is that you can't take actions unless the book says so.

It never says flying creatures can run.
It never says flying creatures can cast spells either.

Equally logical, equally ridiculous.

What else can't flying creatures do? Hmmm...

Like all creatures, flying creatures can take the usual actions on their turns. Spellcasting needs no further allowances than that. Spellcasting rules have no phrasing that disqualifies flying creatures. The "Run" action has text that implies it only applies to land-based movement.

Sczarni

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alexd1976 wrote:
Malag wrote:

@alex1976

This is from Dexterity Ability Score description:

"A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."

You cannot perform any Dexterity check. You do not have a penalty, you simply cannot perform such a check. Fly skill, is a Dexterity based skill check in such case and you cannot perform it. Fly spell says nothing about giving a free floating service in the air so whatever happens is GM's call. This pure RAW reading unless I missed something. RAI might be another story.

I have been mistakenly using this persons quote, and their following opinion, as RAW. It is not.

It appears you CAN make Fly skill checks, though at a hefty penalty.

So... with the assumptions that you control Fly spells mentally, and are somehow unencumbered, you may actually Fly normally, assuming you are rolling high enough to make the checks.

I apologize for my misinformation folks. It was not intentional.

You haven't been mistakenly using anything, in fact, if anyone is failing to use common RAW logic, it's you. A person with a Strength of 0 cannot do anything. A person with Dexterity of 0 also cannot do anything. If the Fly spell was purely mental, Intelligence would replace Dexterity which would imply mental use.

To counter use your logic, there is nothing written in Fly spell requiring mental control. Yes, I am literally advocating that you cannot prove which spell requires mental action and which does not. Rules do not describe what mental actions are, so the best thing we can do is to use "common sense" which is of course going to differ from person to person.

If anyone should prove otherwise, it's you because you are adding a new ability to the Fly spell that shouldn't exist there. As it is, you are claiming that caster can move, yet not use move action. This isn't supported by rules and only few abilities and spells have such effects in the game.


Malag wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Malag wrote:

@alex1976

This is from Dexterity Ability Score description:

"A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."

You cannot perform any Dexterity check. You do not have a penalty, you simply cannot perform such a check. Fly skill, is a Dexterity based skill check in such case and you cannot perform it. Fly spell says nothing about giving a free floating service in the air so whatever happens is GM's call. This pure RAW reading unless I missed something. RAI might be another story.

I have been mistakenly using this persons quote, and their following opinion, as RAW. It is not.

It appears you CAN make Fly skill checks, though at a hefty penalty.

So... with the assumptions that you control Fly spells mentally, and are somehow unencumbered, you may actually Fly normally, assuming you are rolling high enough to make the checks.

I apologize for my misinformation folks. It was not intentional.

You haven't been mistakenly using anything, in fact, if anyone is failing to use common RAW logic, it's you. A person with a Strength of 0 cannot do anything. A person with Dexterity of 0 also cannot do anything. If the Fly spell was purely mental, Intelligence would replace Dexterity which would imply mental use.

To counter use your logic, there is nothing written in Fly spell requiring mental control. Yes, I am literally advocating that you cannot prove which spell requires mental action and which does not. Rules do not describe what mental actions are, so the best thing we can do is to use "common sense" which is of course going to differ from person to person.

If anyone should prove otherwise, it's you because you are adding a new ability to the Fly spell that shouldn't exist there. As it is, you are claiming that caster can move, yet not use move action. This isn't supported by rules and only few abilities and spells have such effects in the game.

Aha, we get to the crux of the matter.

In no way have I intended to claim that Fly does not require a Move action to use, I am simply stating that you do not have to be able to move to use it!

You are choosing to ignore the text in the spell regarding concentration, and I can't force you to acknowledge it, but it is there.

An action must be available for you to control your flight.

On this we agree.

Control of the spell is required.

On this we agree.

Concentration, as mentioned in the spell, is what is required.

On this, you ignore the text completely because _reasons_.

To control a spell, you must meet all listed requirements.

On this we agree.

Paralyze allows mental actions.

On this we agree.

You go on to say that no such thing exists, though.

You are cherry-picking what you want, and ignoring anything you don't like. It isn't really going to win me over.

The fact that you don't AGREE with the text of the spell does not invalidate what is written.

If we are going to assign some actions to 'physical' without the book saying so, then why not to 'mental'?

You can't have it both ways. Either we acknowledge the existence of these nebulous 'physical' and 'mental' actions, or we do not.

You decide. If no mental actions exist, then the game itself simply can't work, because for the same reasons, physical actions can't exist (by not being clearly defined).

I attempted to extrapolate required information using the spell in question.

Where is your information coming from?

You say a person with STR 0 and DEX 0 can't do anything. Normally this is true. The paralyzed condition SPECIFICALLY states an exception.


There is a distinction in the rules for paralyze that says that purely mental actions can be taken. That does not require that any other action be defined as mental or non-mental. That includes Fly, which does not distinguish between the mental part of flying or physical part of flying.

Flying is a physical act, made evidence by the fact that it uses a Dex-based skill roll to pass certain checks. The argument has been made that checks are not required for magical Fly unless making certain maneuvers and therefore Flying is not a physical act. This is wrong. It is a logical fallacy to assume as such. Compare this to walking:

You don't need a check to walk. You don't need a check to run. But to run at a sustained pace, you make a constitution check. To see if you can traverse difficult terrain you might make an acrobatics check. Does this mean that the base act of walking, which does not require a roll and has no associated stat, is not physical because it doesn't require a roll? No. The same logic can be applied to the ride skill. Basic riding requires no checks at all. Would you say then that riding is not physical, until it requires a check? No, because anyone can plainly see that riding is a physical act.

Now, let's perform a philosophical exercise and apply that same logic that we applied to walking and riding to flying:

When you are Flying, whether from the effects of a spell or from natural flight, you are still using a skill that requires dexterity. Even if you are not actively rolling to perform maneuvers, it does not change the stat or skill associated with that act, just like walking doesn't become a purely mental action because you are not actively performing "walk checks" and riding doesn't become purely mental because you aren't making ride checks. If magical flight was a purely mental, magical act, it would not be associated with the dex-based Fly skill, it would be associated with Spellcraft or something more appropriate for a magical means of flight.

When you are flying, whether via magical means or mundane, you are physically moving. Paralyze specifically prevents you from moving. Physical movement is not a mental action. It follows then that you cannot move while paralyzed even if you are under the effect of the Fly spell.


A Broom of Flying is effectively paralyzed, since a broom is an inanimate object and has no movable limbs.
And yet it can fly (independently without a passenger) using magical flight.

Why would the magical flight of a Fly spell not function like this?

There is also the matter of the flight magic granted by many Oracle revelations which create a pair of magical wings. Why would paralyze affect magical wings? Surely these flight wings are maneuvered using thought as they are completely separate from the character's organic limbs. In the same way, you wouldn't expect something like Spiritual Weapon, which is another type of "magical phantom limb", to be affected by the caster's paralysis.


el cuervo, you say you cannot move while paralyzed because it is a physical action to move?

So if something grabs me and wants to throw me to the moon, unless I have an action available AND am not paralyzed, I am immune to that?

Yes or no please.

The fact that you happen to change location on the map is irrelevant.

riding in a cart doesn't require your move action, nor does it require you to be able to act at all. Paralysis is irrelevant to the cart.

Fly is the animating force that is moving you.

The spell powers your locomotion across the map.

You can sit cross-legged in the lotus position chanting 'Om' and it won't make a lick of difference.

Move actions are simply a game mechanic describing how much you can accomplish in a round, it isn't a description of the action you are taking.

'manipulating an item' does not force you to change which square you occupy on a map. It is a move action, but you aren't changing location.

Directing or redirecting a spell is also a 'move action'. With illusion spells, you can maintain some for 'Concentration'.

How, in THAT example, is a move action used? Mentally. To not move one damned inch.

Back to the Fly spell...

Just because you CAN make rolls on the Fly skill in some situations does not mean you MUST make Fly checks to use the spell.

You are in a neutral state until a condition is applied. If you are flying along like a stupid, paralyzed mook, thats fine until you want to make a tight turn. At that point, a check would be required, AND ONLY AT THAT POINT.

Until then, you just look like a silly, naked, paralyzed fool. Floating along, propelled by magic, not by your own body exerting force.

It really pains me that people think the Fly spell requires arm flapping (or whatever non-mental jibber jabber it apparently requires, despite text saying it needs concentration).

Lets approach this from the other side.

YOU tell ME how you control Fly. Tell me how it works with the Demilich.

Tell me why Silence doesn't prevent you from using it.


Jeven wrote:

A Broom of Flying is effectively paralyzed, since a broom is an inanimate object and has no movable limbs.

And yet it can fly (independently without a passenger) using magical flight.

Why would the magical flight of a Fly spell not function like this?

There is also the matter of the flight magic granted by many Oracle revelations which create a pair of magical wings. Why would paralyze affect magical wings? Surely these flight wings are maneuvered using thought as they are completely separate from the character's organic limbs. In the same way, you wouldn't expect something like Spiritual Weapon to be affected by the caster's paralysis.

You don't need a check to walk. You don't need a check to run. But to run at a sustained pace, you make a constitution check. To see if you can traverse difficult terrain or perform other complex land-based maneuvers, you might make an acrobatics check. Does this mean that the base act of walking, which does not require a roll and has no associated stat, is not physical because it doesn't require a roll? No.

Now, let's perform a philosophical exercise and apply that same logic that we applied to walking to flying:

You don't need a check to fly at more than half-speed in a straight line. But to fly up, hover, or turn sharply, or do anything else that isn't flying in wide, lazy arcs, you make a Fly check. Let's apply the logic from above: Does this mean that the base act of Fly, which does not require a roll and has no associated stat, is not physical because it doesn't require a roll? No. It means the base act is simple enough that anyone can do it. It does not mean it is not a physical act.


alexd1976 wrote:

el cuervo, you say you cannot move while paralyzed because it is a physical action to move?

So if something grabs me and wants to throw me to the moon, unless I have an action available AND am not paralyzed, I am immune to that?

Yes or no please.

The fact that you happen to change location on the map is irrelevant.

riding in a cart doesn't require your move action, nor does it require you to be able to act at all. Paralysis is irrelevant to the cart.

Fly is the animating force that is moving you.

The spell powers your locomotion across the map.

You can sit cross-legged in the lotus position chanting 'Om' and it won't make a lick of difference.

Move actions are simply a game mechanic describing how much you can accomplish in a round, it isn't a description of the action you are taking.

'manipulating an item' does not force you to change which square you occupy on a map. It is a move action, but you aren't changing location.

Directing or redirecting a spell is also a 'move action'. With illusion spells, you can maintain some for 'Concentration'.

How, in THAT example, is a move action used? Mentally. To not move one damned inch.

Back to the Fly spell...

Just because you CAN make rolls on the Fly skill in some situations does not mean you MUST make Fly checks to use the spell.

You are in a neutral state until a condition is applied. If you are flying along like a stupid, paralyzed mook, thats fine until you want to make a tight turn. At that point, a check would be required, AND ONLY AT THAT POINT.

Until then, you just look like a silly, naked, paralyzed fool. Floating along, propelled by magic, not by your own body exerting force.

It really pains me that people think the Fly spell requires arm flapping (or whatever non-mental jibber jabber it apparently requires, despite text saying it needs concentration).

Lets approach this from the other side.

YOU tell ME how you control Fly. Tell me how it works with the Demilich.

Tell me why Silence doesn't...

If something grabs you when you are paralyzed, YOU ARE NOT THE ONE INITIATING THE MOVE.

You also left out the most important type of move action, which is MOVEMENT. When you move your position you are taking a physical action to move yourself. You move at a speed as defined by the game rules. Fly has such a speed. If Fly was purely magical you wouldn't have a speed, because as you say you could just control it mentally and make it move you at whatever speed you want. It's not instant and it requires control of your flight by physical action as evidenced by the fact that there are dex-based skill checks required for complex flight maneuvers.


el cuervo wrote:
Jeven wrote:

A Broom of Flying is effectively paralyzed, since a broom is an inanimate object and has no movable limbs.

And yet it can fly (independently without a passenger) using magical flight.

Why would the magical flight of a Fly spell not function like this?

There is also the matter of the flight magic granted by many Oracle revelations which create a pair of magical wings. Why would paralyze affect magical wings? Surely these flight wings are maneuvered using thought as they are completely separate from the character's organic limbs. In the same way, you wouldn't expect something like Spiritual Weapon to be affected by the caster's paralysis.

You don't need a check to walk. You don't need a check to run. But to run at a sustained pace, you make a constitution check. To see if you can traverse difficult terrain or perform other complex land-based maneuvers, you might make an acrobatics check. Does this mean that the base act of walking, which does not require a roll and has no associated stat, is not physical because it doesn't require a roll? No.

Now, let's perform a philosophical exercise and apply that same logic that we applied to walking to flying:

You don't need a check to fly at more than half-speed in a straight line. But to fly up, hover, or turn sharply, or do anything else that isn't flying in wide, lazy arcs, you make a Fly check. Let's apply the logic from above: Does this mean that the base act of Fly, which does not require a roll and has no associated stat, is not physical because it doesn't require a roll? No. It means the base act is simple enough that anyone can do it. It does not mean it is not a physical act.

Fly requires as much concentration as walking, not as much effort. Two VERY different things.

Sczarni

alexd1976 wrote:
stuff...

It says that Fly spell requires as much concentration as walking. The text about concentration says nothing of mental actions. In fact, it doesn't say it doesn't include physical activity or not. At worst, it's up to GM to decide what the spell might do.

This flimsy explanation would never fly with any sane RAW binding GM. As a GM, the only question that I would ask you during a session is to simplify the discussion would be: "Does the Fly spell require move action to move?". Explaining that you are moving with your mind alone isn't sufficient, not without breaking game balance. You would need some heavy RAW support otherwise.


alexd1976 wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
Jeven wrote:

A Broom of Flying is effectively paralyzed, since a broom is an inanimate object and has no movable limbs.

And yet it can fly (independently without a passenger) using magical flight.

Why would the magical flight of a Fly spell not function like this?

There is also the matter of the flight magic granted by many Oracle revelations which create a pair of magical wings. Why would paralyze affect magical wings? Surely these flight wings are maneuvered using thought as they are completely separate from the character's organic limbs. In the same way, you wouldn't expect something like Spiritual Weapon to be affected by the caster's paralysis.

You don't need a check to walk. You don't need a check to run. But to run at a sustained pace, you make a constitution check. To see if you can traverse difficult terrain or perform other complex land-based maneuvers, you might make an acrobatics check. Does this mean that the base act of walking, which does not require a roll and has no associated stat, is not physical because it doesn't require a roll? No.

Now, let's perform a philosophical exercise and apply that same logic that we applied to walking to flying:

You don't need a check to fly at more than half-speed in a straight line. But to fly up, hover, or turn sharply, or do anything else that isn't flying in wide, lazy arcs, you make a Fly check. Let's apply the logic from above: Does this mean that the base act of Fly, which does not require a roll and has no associated stat, is not physical because it doesn't require a roll? No. It means the base act is simple enough that anyone can do it. It does not mean it is not a physical act.

Fly requires as much concentration as walking, not as much effort. Two VERY different things.

Thank you for once again ignoring most of post and saying something about concentration to support your flimsy argument that does nothing to address my point.

This is very simple:

Walking is a physical action. To do more than just normal walking, you make a dex check (acrobatics skill).

Flight is a physical action. To do anything other than normal flight at more than half flight speed, you make a dex check (fly skill).

This says nothing about the effort or the level of concentration required. We are applying basic math to the logic of the situation. IF P, then Q. If walk is a physical action because advanced walk moves require dexterity checks, then Fly is a physical action because advanced flight moves require dexterity checks. Magical or not, it makes no difference, because all forms of Flight require the same dexterity checks. The fact that you are not making a check because you are not performing an advanced maneuver does not change the nature of the locomotion.


The constant use of double negatives is getting tiring guys.

I'm quoting text and giving examples.

What I'm getting in response is essentially this:

"Our approach isn't spelled out as being incorrect, therefor it must be correct."

When there is silence in the rules, look at what is available.

There IS mention of control in the spell. I know it's a MASSIVE leap of logic to think that concentration and mental action might in some way, some how be related, but try to make the connection.

I'm not going to stop bringing it up because it is RIGHT THERE IN THE SPELL. They do, in fact, give us clues about how one can control this.

It's subtle, and you have to look pretty hard, but it's there.

I'm trying to connect the dots for you, but you just don't want to cooperate.

el cuervo, I'm ignoring what you wrote because you are talking about WALKING. I'm talking about the Fly spell.

Trying to convince people that magical flight requires as much effort as just running around yourself is ludicrous.

Magic provides the motion.
The control is from the caster.
You must use actions to control it.

I don't think we disagree on those three points, do we?

I'll stop there for now.


alexd1976: Yes - you can still take mental actions. So you can think: "Oh s~#$! I'm paralyzed!" and scream inside all you'd like as you descend to the ground, or continue to drift along in the direction you were flying if it is decided that Paralyze does not negate the Fly spell. But you have no control over your physical movement per RAI. (Paralyzed means no physical control over yourself, hence why they stipulate that you can still take mental actions.)

Basing your entire (pages long) argument on an assumption that magical flight is a mental action is just that - it's an assumption you are making. The RAW does not state it, so any decision - for or against - is an assumption, which falls to a GM to determine for their table and play style.

This thread was to try and get a FAQ so there might be a more concrete RAW to go by.


alexd1976 wrote:

The constant use of double negatives is getting tiring guys.

I'm quoting text and giving examples.

What I'm getting in response is essentially this:

"Our approach isn't spelled out as being incorrect, therefor it must be correct."

When there is silence in the rules, look at what is available.

There IS mention of control in the spell. I know it's a MASSIVE leap of logic to think that concentration and mental action might in some way, some how be related, but try to make the connection.

I'm not going to stop bringing it up because it is RIGHT THERE IN THE SPELL. They do, in fact, give us clues about how one can control this.

It's subtle, and you have to look pretty hard, but it's there.

I'm trying to connect the dots for you, but you just don't want to cooperate.

el cuervo, I'm ignoring what you wrote because you are talking about WALKING. I'm talking about the Fly spell.

Trying to convince people that magical flight requires as much effort as just running around yourself is ludicrous.

Magic provides the motion.
The control is from the caster.
You must use actions to control it.

I don't think we disagree on those three points, do we?

I'll stop there for now.

Let's be real. You're ignoring what I wrote because it is logically sound and it refutes what you want to believe, not because I am talking about walking. Walking is the base form of locomotion in the rule system. It is the basis for all forms of movement that require making a move action. It is completely logical and reasonable to form a comparison based on that.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Malag wrote:
This flimsy explanation would never fly with any sane RAW binding GM.

There's no such thing as a sane, RAW-binding GM. A GM who slavishly adheres only to the RAW is either insane or a robot--and a poor GM to boot!

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