What happens to the Fly spell if you get paralized


Rules Questions

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ErichAD wrote:
I never noticed before, but ground movement is exactly the same. From now on I'm moving without the use of my limbs, cause that's how I roll.

Hue.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Personally I'd say that if something is no action or action: None then it can be purely mental or sensory.

Under that definition fly still doesnt work while paralyzed because flying is an action.

Guys, try to remember the condition:

Quote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Thus the whole argument. If fly is mental, then it falls under that exception.

Where does it say that Flying is no action or action: none?

Where does it say flight is a purely mental action?

If you can show me anywhere in the spell text that says that, I will agree that flight is possible while paralyzed.


ErichAD wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
ErichAD wrote:

I've made a more than adequate case for controlled flight being impossible as a purely mental feat. Ignoring it loudly isn't a rebuttal.

and yes actually, they aught to clarify binary options like purely mental and purely physical if they are going to use them as mechanical guides.

Yet a level 20 wizard casting fly can choose to fly without moving a single muscle. He will do this and take a -5 penalty to dexterity, because he is going to sit legs crossed arms folded. Lets see. -5 dex +10 spell Bonus + 20 ranks +3 class bonus. Hmmm that is a +28 bonus to succeed on any fly check. He can decide to pick up a tower shield and have an even greater penalty yet still adequately pass any skill check. I remind you, he is controlling his movement purely with his mind, because he is that bad ass.

I never noticed before, but ground movement is exactly the same. From now on I'm moving without the use of my limbs, cause that's how I roll.

Awesome!!! What form of magic are you going to use to provide propulsion? I'm using the spell fly.


Forseti wrote:

"A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act."

Why "move and act" if "move" already covers all bases?

Because it doesn't. "Move" in that sentence is used in its intransitive form. In that form, it almost always means "to go from one place to another."

The "act" part of that sentence aggravates the situation by disallowing everything else you conveniently shuffle under "move".

Again, except for mental actions, thus the entire debate.

But I guess here you are invoking yet another definition of move.

I would object strongly that the 'move' in paralyzed means to go from one place to another. Teleport would clearly work if you could cast the spell using a mental action, as would dimension door, and other magical movement capabilities, such as a flying carpet that responded to mental commands.

Why 'move and act'? I could ask the same question of your interpretation: why 'frozen in place' and 'move'?


Insain Dragoon wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Personally I'd say that if something is no action or action: None then it can be purely mental or sensory.

Under that definition fly still doesnt work while paralyzed because flying is an action.

Guys, try to remember the condition:

Quote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Thus the whole argument. If fly is mental, then it falls under that exception.

Where does it say that Flying is no action or action: none?

Where does it say flight is a purely mental action?

If you can show me anywhere in the spell text that says that, I will agree that flight is possible while paralyzed.

Where does it say knowledge checks are purely mental?

Do you agree knowledge checks are possible while paralyzed?

Man, I really should have a bookmark to the dev comment that RAW is not meant to be interpreted robotically, that you have to rely on some amount of interpretation and association with reality.

I think several people in this thread could use a reminder.


I'm reposting this from the other thread into this one, because I'm really curious about the answer, and it seems no one is reading that anymore. (Or perhaps no one has an answer)

Forseti wrote:

The fact that flight by means of the Fly spell has its speed defined by encumbrance and type of armor worn, strongly implies a physical effort.

A lightly encumbered subject wearing a medium armor made of steel can't fly as fast as another person carrying the exact same amount of weight if he's wearing a mithral version of that armor, even if they try it with the exact same aerodynamic profile, volume and weight. (Assume the mithral guy is carrying some extra weight to compensate for the weight difference of their armors.)

Why is that? Same weight, same volume, same aerodynamic profile. The only difference is that the first person has a less accommodating armor, therefore, he can't fly as fast.

How does the "mental" paradigm deal with this discrepancy?


_Ozy_ wrote:
I think several people in this thread could use a reminder.

I've stated several times that I believe you should be able to fly via the effects of the fly spell while paralyzed. It makes thematic sense that it's a magical flight.

What I'm stating here is that it is not the case as per the rules. And this is a rules forum, and we're answering a rules question.


A side note, to the strict RAW crowd:

Don't play barbarians.

When they rage, they can't do anything requiring concentration, and it has been shown that walking requires concentration, so they can't walk while raging.

RAW.

Or should we apply the idea that 'concentration' is really 'Concentration', as has been done in this description of the Fly spell, so they can do anything they like except use spells with a duration of 'Concentration' and the listed restricted skills.

Since patience isn't a mechanical term, the limitations on a barbarian suddenly don't look so bad.

RAW

I've mentioned the death thing, but will do so again:

The only mechanical penalty for being dead is that you don't heal normally, or with magic. But that's okay, because having -1000 hitpoints doesn't affect you. So don't bother keeping track of your hitpoints if it's at anything other than 0 (when you are 'Staggered').

RAW

So please make sure you adhere to the rules above with the same commitment you have shown in trying to convince us that concentration (the english word, as used in the Fly spell) isn't a mental action.

If you think the above examples are ridiculous, poorly written, incomplete or just an outright mistake, I will agree with you completely.

They are ludicrous!

But they are RAW, so make sure you use them as written, just like your interpretation of Fly.

And don't forget, Martial Weapon Proficiency can't be granted by a feat, so keep that in mind when making your character. (Confused? Don't be, all the feat does is remove the penalty to hit, nowhere in the description does it grant you actual proficiency-RAW).

Some of the above examples may not come up often, so pay close attention and make sure to apply the rules correctly when they do.

Your vigilance will be appreciated by your fellow players.


Forseti wrote:

I'm reposting this from the other thread into this one, because I'm really curious about the answer, and it seems no one is reading that anymore. (Or perhaps no one has an answer)

Forseti wrote:

The fact that flight by means of the Fly spell has its speed defined by encumbrance and type of armor worn, strongly implies a physical effort.

A lightly encumbered subject wearing a medium armor made of steel can't fly as fast as another person carrying the exact same amount of weight if he's wearing a mithral version of that armor, even if they try it with the exact same aerodynamic profile, volume and weight. (Assume the mithral guy is carrying some extra weight to compensate for the weight difference of their armors.)

Why is that? Same weight, same volume, same aerodynamic profile. The only difference is that the first person has a less accommodating armor, therefore, he can't fly as fast.

How does the "mental" paradigm deal with this discrepancy?

*shrug* It's an artifact of how the magic works. Mechanically they had to determine how much a person could carry while flying, so they tied the magic into the physical stat of strength.

How does the "physical" paradigm deal with the fact that creatures without any physical capabilities can fly using the fly spell?

How does the "physical" paradigm deal with the fact that there are no physical requirements listed in the fly spell, only mental concentration?


_Ozy_ wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Personally I'd say that if something is no action or action: None then it can be purely mental or sensory.

Under that definition fly still doesnt work while paralyzed because flying is an action.

Guys, try to remember the condition:

Quote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Thus the whole argument. If fly is mental, then it falls under that exception.

Where does it say that Flying is no action or action: none?

Where does it say flight is a purely mental action?

If you can show me anywhere in the spell text that says that, I will agree that flight is possible while paralyzed.

Where does it say knowledge checks are purely mental?

Do you agree knowledge checks are possible while paralyzed?

Man, I really should have a bookmark to the dev comment that RAW is not meant to be interpreted robotically, that you have to rely on some amount of interpretation and association with reality.

I think several people in this thread could use a reminder.

I literally responded to that last page.

Knowledge wrote:
Usually none. In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action
Perception wrote:
Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell........Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action........

As you can see Perception (passively) and Knowledge are not actions, therefore.


Johnny_Devo wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
I think several people in this thread could use a reminder.

I've stated several times that I believe you should be able to fly via the effects of the fly spell while paralyzed. It makes thematic sense that it's a magical flight.

What I'm stating here is that it is not the case as per the rules. And this is a rules forum, and we're answering a rules question.

So clearly you're one of the ones who need the reminder.


alexd1976 wrote:

A side note, to the strict RAW crowd:

Don't play barbarians.

When they rage, they can't do anything requiring concentration, and it has been shown that walking requires concentration, so they can't walk while raging.

RAW.

Actually, no. The Fly spell says the one takes as much concentration as the other. The amount could be zero. Since mindless creatures can walk, I think it is zero.

alexd1976 wrote:
Or should we apply the idea that 'concentration' is really 'Concentration', as has been done in this description of the Fly spell, so they can do anything they like except use spells with a duration of 'Concentration' and the listed restricted skills.

Don't you think that a spell that transfers the obligation to control it by "Concentration" would make a bloody huge point of that in very explicit phrasing?

Sovereign Court

el cuervo wrote:
OilHorse wrote:
el cuervo wrote:


The problem is, we do have clarification that even magical flight is a physical act because advanced flight maneuvers require a dexterity check. The argument then becomes, "flight is purely mental and magical, but only when you're not making complex maneuvers."

Somehow, once you want to hover or move more slowly, it becomes a physical action, but not until that point? There's nothing in the rules that works...

So, to clarify...You say that it is not a physical action UNTIL you perform a complex action through the Fly SkillÉ
No. It is a physical action all the time.

Lololol....


Forseti wrote:

I'm reposting this from the other thread into this one, because I'm really curious about the answer, and it seems no one is reading that anymore. (Or perhaps no one has an answer)

Forseti wrote:

The fact that flight by means of the Fly spell has its speed defined by encumbrance and type of armor worn, strongly implies a physical effort.

A lightly encumbered subject wearing a medium armor made of steel can't fly as fast as another person carrying the exact same amount of weight if he's wearing a mithral version of that armor, even if they try it with the exact same aerodynamic profile, volume and weight. (Assume the mithral guy is carrying some extra weight to compensate for the weight difference of their armors.)

Why is that? Same weight, same volume, same aerodynamic profile. The only difference is that the first person has a less accommodating armor, therefore, he can't fly as fast.

How does the "mental" paradigm deal with this discrepancy?

Where does the it say that medium armor reduces fly speed?


_Ozy_ wrote:
How does the "physical" paradigm deal with the fact that creatures without any physical capabilities can fly using the fly spell?

Answered more often than I care to remember. Are you trolling me?

_Ozy_ wrote:
How does the "physical" paradigm deal with the fact that there are no physical requirements listed in the fly spell, only mental concentration?

But there are. Weight allowance.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Forseti wrote:

I'm reposting this from the other thread into this one, because I'm really curious about the answer, and it seems no one is reading that anymore. (Or perhaps no one has an answer)

Forseti wrote:

The fact that flight by means of the Fly spell has its speed defined by encumbrance and type of armor worn, strongly implies a physical effort.

A lightly encumbered subject wearing a medium armor made of steel can't fly as fast as another person carrying the exact same amount of weight if he's wearing a mithral version of that armor, even if they try it with the exact same aerodynamic profile, volume and weight. (Assume the mithral guy is carrying some extra weight to compensate for the weight difference of their armors.)

Why is that? Same weight, same volume, same aerodynamic profile. The only difference is that the first person has a less accommodating armor, therefore, he can't fly as fast.

How does the "mental" paradigm deal with this discrepancy?

Where does the it say that medium armor reduces fly speed?

In the Fly spell, for crying out loud!


As for encumbrance, that is part of the weight limits of the spell.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Forseti wrote:

I'm reposting this from the other thread into this one, because I'm really curious about the answer, and it seems no one is reading that anymore. (Or perhaps no one has an answer)

Forseti wrote:

The fact that flight by means of the Fly spell has its speed defined by encumbrance and type of armor worn, strongly implies a physical effort.

A lightly encumbered subject wearing a medium armor made of steel can't fly as fast as another person carrying the exact same amount of weight if he's wearing a mithral version of that armor, even if they try it with the exact same aerodynamic profile, volume and weight. (Assume the mithral guy is carrying some extra weight to compensate for the weight difference of their armors.)

Why is that? Same weight, same volume, same aerodynamic profile. The only difference is that the first person has a less accommodating armor, therefore, he can't fly as fast.

How does the "mental" paradigm deal with this discrepancy?

Where does the it say that medium armor reduces fly speed?

It's hidden in the barding rules I think


Insain Dragoon wrote:

I literally responded to that last page.

Knowledge wrote:
Usually none. In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action
Perception wrote:
Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell........Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action........
As you can see Perception (passively) and Knowledge are not actions, therefore.

Therefore, what, you can do anything that 'isn't an action'?

Or only mental non-actions...which of course puts us right back to square one.

But of course, we can focus on that word 'usually' and postulate that this is an instance where a knowledge check requires someone to actually take an action to think about a topic. Maybe they are performing a mathematical calculation, or some other mental activity that takes significant time.

Can they do it?


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I am very rarely the kind of person to throw this around, but you guys are coming at this argument like powergamer trying to exploit a flaw in the system than someone who's honestly curious about the rules.


ErichAD wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Forseti wrote:

I'm reposting this from the other thread into this one, because I'm really curious about the answer, and it seems no one is reading that anymore. (Or perhaps no one has an answer)

Forseti wrote:

The fact that flight by means of the Fly spell has its speed defined by encumbrance and type of armor worn, strongly implies a physical effort.

A lightly encumbered subject wearing a medium armor made of steel can't fly as fast as another person carrying the exact same amount of weight if he's wearing a mithral version of that armor, even if they try it with the exact same aerodynamic profile, volume and weight. (Assume the mithral guy is carrying some extra weight to compensate for the weight difference of their armors.)

Why is that? Same weight, same volume, same aerodynamic profile. The only difference is that the first person has a less accommodating armor, therefore, he can't fly as fast.

How does the "mental" paradigm deal with this discrepancy?

Where does the it say that medium armor reduces fly speed?
It's hidden in the barding rules I think

Cool, I'll look it up.


Dissection of the rules is what occurs on these boards.

Are you new here?


_Ozy_ wrote:

Dissection of the rules is what occurs on these boards.

Are you new here?

That's particularly funny.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
As for encumbrance, that is part of the weight limits of the spell.

I'm not talking about encumbrance.

I'm talking about two people that are completely identical with regard to their total weight, volume and aerodynamic profile. They are wearing the exact same medium armor, the only difference being that one is made of steel, the other of mithral.

One flies at 60', the other at 40'.

The only practical difference is that the steel armor guy has a more restrictive armor. Why does the Fly spell care if the movement it produces is purely mental?

Does the Fly spell flip through its Pathfinder books to find the rules for mithral, and grudgingly grants the mithral guy a greater speed?

Does Fly inflict its subjects with a very specific form of vestiphobia?

Sovereign Court

Insain Dragoon wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Personally I'd say that if something is no action or action: None then it can be purely mental or sensory.

Under that definition fly still doesnt work while paralyzed because flying is an action.

Guys, try to remember the condition:

Quote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Thus the whole argument. If fly is mental, then it falls under that exception.

Where does it say that Flying is no action or action: none?

Where does it say flight is a purely mental action?

If you can show me anywhere in the spell text that says that, I will agree that flight is possible while paralyzed.

Show where it says that the Fly spell requires physical movement?

It only states that it requires as much concentration as walking.

No where is it mentioned the type of physical actions used.


Forseti wrote:

I'm reposting this from the other thread into this one, because I'm really curious about the answer, and it seems no one is reading that anymore. (Or perhaps no one has an answer)

Forseti wrote:

The fact that flight by means of the Fly spell has its speed defined by encumbrance and type of armor worn, strongly implies a physical effort.

A lightly encumbered subject wearing a medium armor made of steel can't fly as fast as another person carrying the exact same amount of weight if he's wearing a mithral version of that armor, even if they try it with the exact same aerodynamic profile, volume and weight. (Assume the mithral guy is carrying some extra weight to compensate for the weight difference of their armors.)

Why is that? Same weight, same volume, same aerodynamic profile. The only difference is that the first person has a less accommodating armor, therefore, he can't fly as fast.

How does the "mental" paradigm deal with this discrepancy?

Um... magic? Something about how druids and metal don't get along... something like that I guess.

*shrugs*

It's a rule with no explanation, so you can come up with your own reasons just as much as I can. Has no bearing on anything if we want to stick to RAW.

There is no 'discrepancy' present here. Fly provides a magical force capable of carrying you aloft, regardless of how much you weigh, there is no limit to what it can empower. If you have a STR high enough to carry a mountain, you can do it with Fly.

You can be encased in hardened steel, head to toe, and as long as you would be strong enough to carry your prison, you can flit about using this spell because you aren't paralyzed. There isn't a rule published to cover this situation, so apply RAW. You can fly.

Nowhere does Fly talk about malfunctioning if your hands are full, or if you are encased in metal. They don't call out physical requirements to your choice of direction because there AREN'T any.

I wish people would stop ignoring what IS written in the spell.

Using it only requires as much (lower case, not used in the 'duration' listing) 'concentration' as walking.

Those of us who allow this text to be in our books presumably use it as written.

To us, this IS RAW.

It is, after all, published in the book, and is in the text of the spell where it describes how it is used.

There is no implication about meaning in that sentence, it's pretty clearly spelled out.

If you want to insist that every use of the word concentrate has to be a reference to spell duration, then I suggest you reconsider your view on the word 'act', cause I'm gonna assume something about its usage as well.

Next time you hit me with paralyze, my first ACTION will be to cast a silenced teleport.

"but you can't act!" correct. I didn't wanna be in movies anyway, got a low Charisma, lots of reasons, so no big loss. Paralyze doesn't prevent actions. Not in the written text anyway. It does interfere with your dreams of becoming famous though... for some reason.

How's THAT for RAW?


Only one thing has really been made clear to me in participating in this thread. I believe that each of us believes separately, and our ways of interpreting the rules are so different that there's no real way for us to come to an agreement here.

I don't really think that we can accomplish anything further by continuing to argue the point. We've both made our points and argued our sides, so the discussion is there for whomever comes after us. I think that all that's left for us to do is let it stew for a while and hope official clarification comes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
OilHorse wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Personally I'd say that if something is no action or action: None then it can be purely mental or sensory.

Under that definition fly still doesnt work while paralyzed because flying is an action.

Guys, try to remember the condition:

Quote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Thus the whole argument. If fly is mental, then it falls under that exception.

Where does it say that Flying is no action or action: none?

Where does it say flight is a purely mental action?

If you can show me anywhere in the spell text that says that, I will agree that flight is possible while paralyzed.

Show where it says that the Fly spell requires physical movement?

It only states that it requires as much concentration as walking.

No where is it mentioned the type of physical actions used.

It doesn't say anywhere that it changes the normal rules for movement, so the rules still apply. Therefore if you are paralyzed you can't move.

If your STR/DEx is 0 you cant move.

You can't move.


Forseti wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
As for encumbrance, that is part of the weight limits of the spell.

I'm not talking about encumbrance.

I'm talking about two people that are completely identical with regard to their total weight, volume and aerodynamic profile. They are wearing the exact same medium armor, the only difference being that one is made of steel, the other of mithral.

One flies at 60', the other at 40'.

The only practical difference is that the steel armor guy has a more restrictive armor. Why does the Fly spell care if the movement it produces is purely mental?

Does the Fly spell flip through its Pathfinder books to find the rules for mithral, and grudgingly grants the mithral guy a greater speed?

Does Fly inflict its subjects with a very specific form of vestiphobia?

A good point, I will sleep on it.


Forseti wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
As for encumbrance, that is part of the weight limits of the spell.

I'm not talking about encumbrance.

I'm talking about two people that are completely identical with regard to their total weight, volume and aerodynamic profile. They are wearing the exact same medium armor, the only difference being that one is made of steel, the other of mithral.

One flies at 60', the other at 40'.

The only practical difference is that the steel armor guy has a more restrictive armor. Why does the Fly spell care if the movement it produces is purely mental?

Does the Fly spell flip through its Pathfinder books to find the rules for mithral, and grudgingly grants the mithral guy a greater speed?

Does Fly inflict its subjects with a very specific form of vestiphobia?

Nah, it just does what it says it does. It's magic. Spells can let you do weird things.


alexd1976 wrote:

Um... magic? Something about how druids and metal don't get along... something like that I guess.

*shrugs*

So you have no answer, okay.

alexd1976 wrote:
It's a rule with no explanation, so you can come up with your own reasons just as much as I can. Has no bearing on anything if we want to stick to RAW.

It has implications.

alexd1976 wrote:

There is no 'discrepancy' present here. Fly provides a magical force capable of carrying you aloft, regardless of how much you weigh, there is no limit to what it can empower. If you have a STR high enough to carry a mountain, you can do it with Fly.

You can be encased in hardened steel, head to toe, and as long as you would be strong enough to carry your prison, you can flit about using this spell because you aren't paralyzed. There isn't a rule published to cover this situation, so apply RAW. You can fly.

But why at vastly different speeds depending on a criterium that is solely based on bodily maneuverability?

alexd1976 wrote:
Nowhere does Fly talk about malfunctioning if your hands are full, or if you are encased in metal. They don't call out physical requirements to your choice of direction because there AREN'T any.

It requires you to be able to carry your load.


alexd1976 wrote:
Nah, it just does what it says it does. It's magic. Spells can let you do weird things.

Indeed. And what it says is, the subject can fly and flying is as easy as walking. It's also as hard as walking, if you carry a lot of stuff.

Failing to mention anything about a different action economy for purposes of this flying ability, the usual movement rules apply. Which is nice and easy, and only proper, after all, flying is only as easy as walking.


Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Nah, it just does what it says it does. It's magic. Spells can let you do weird things.

Indeed. And what it says is, the subject can fly and flying is as easy as walking. It's also as hard as walking, if you carry a lot of stuff.

Failing to mention anything about a different action economy for purposes of this flying ability, the usual movement rules apply. Which is nice and easy, and only proper, after all, flying is only as easy as walking.

Stahp Stahp, the 13th amendment makes it illegal to own people this much!


Insain Dragoon wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Dissection of the rules is what occurs on these boards.

Are you new here?

That's particularly funny.

Yeah, I sure thought so. Threads that nitpick the rules, often boiling down to two dramatically opposed intransigent camps, are legion in this forum.

Corner cases especially are used to try to push and explore the boundaries to try and gain some perspective and triangulation of what the RAW means and its implications across the board.

This thread is neither rare, nor unusual in its content.


. . . . . . . CHALLENGE: . . . . . .

Quote rules text from the SRD/PRD that has not yet been quoted and is relevant.

/cevah


Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Um... magic? Something about how druids and metal don't get along... something like that I guess.

*shrugs*

So you have no answer, okay.

alexd1976 wrote:
It's a rule with no explanation, so you can come up with your own reasons just as much as I can. Has no bearing on anything if we want to stick to RAW.

It has implications.

alexd1976 wrote:

There is no 'discrepancy' present here. Fly provides a magical force capable of carrying you aloft, regardless of how much you weigh, there is no limit to what it can empower. If you have a STR high enough to carry a mountain, you can do it with Fly.

You can be encased in hardened steel, head to toe, and as long as you would be strong enough to carry your prison, you can flit about using this spell because you aren't paralyzed. There isn't a rule published to cover this situation, so apply RAW. You can fly.

But why at vastly different speeds depending on a criterium that is solely based on bodily maneuverability?

alexd1976 wrote:
Nowhere does Fly talk about malfunctioning if your hands are full, or if you are encased in metal. They don't call out physical requirements to your choice of direction because there AREN'T any.
It requires you to be able to carry your load.

I did have an answer, it's magic. Why this not an acceptable answer? We are talking about a magical spell cast in an imaginary game world...

If you want to talk about implications, I'm totally open to that.

"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking" Would you be willing to admit that this sentence implies that concentration equivalent to walking is the only thing you need to use the spell? Perhaps it even implies that the mental action alluded to in paralysis would allow for this?

Concentrating on walking isn't a reference to a spell duration, so perhaps the above sentence is just another way of describing a 'mental action' (as some of us have been trying to convince others of).

As for your next comment where you reference "bodily maneuverability", I don't really understand what you are saying. Could you expand a bit on that?

The last point, about you having to be able to carry what you are carrying... seems obvious. Fly doesn't increase your strength, it just makes you fly. It isn't a jet of air or a pair of wings, it's just a magical effect that you can use to go up and around with.

So, really the point I want to focus on is that one sentence I keep bashing people in the face with... about concentration.

You said something was implied, and that's great, that means you are willing to consider more than just a robotic reading of the printed text interpreted using an inflexible mathematical formula, instead of intelligence and reasoning. That's good.

So...

we agree things can be implied, I want your opinion on the implication of the sentence about concentration/walking.

Also, could you expand your third point a bit? I don't want to comment on it without knowing more clearly what your intention was there.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Dissection of the rules is what occurs on these boards.

Are you new here?

That's particularly funny.

Yeah, I sure thought so. Threads that nitpick the rules, often boiling down to two dramatically opposed intransigent camps, are legion in this forum.

Corner cases especially are used to try to push and explore the boundaries to try and gain some perspective and triangulation of what the RAW means and its implications across the board.

This thread is neither rare, nor unusual in its content.

Nah I thought it was funny that you suggested I was new here or to these kinds of arguments when I have about 1000 more posts than you. Primarily in Advice, Product, Rules Discussion, and Paizo/3pp playtest.

When I see rule disputes like these there are often three sides, though I don't think you see the third side.

People who read it as A.
People who read it as B.
People who read it as A/B because they need it to work that way.

You're arguing like group 3.


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alexd1976 wrote:
"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking" Would you be willing to admit that this sentence implies that concentration equivalent to walking is the only thing you need to use the spell?

You really don't read what I write, do you?

I'm completely in agreement with that.

You concentrate a tiny little bit. It results in your body moving through the air by magic. Your "concentration" has successfully initiated a move action to move. Except of course when you're paralyzed, because by flying you move, and moving is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition.

It works exactly the same as:

You concentrate a tiny little bit. It results in your legs moving. Your "concentration" has successfully initiated a move action to move. Except of course when you're paralyzed, because by walking you move, and moving is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition.

The concentration isn't an action, it's the mental process that precedes every non-autonomous physical action.

This is what is meant by that phrase you keep quoting.

The phrase isn't "Using a fly spell requires only concentration", it's "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking".

(Which, by the way, I would argue is no concentration at all, because mindless creatures can't concentrate on anything, yet they can still walk. I know I never really concentrate on walking, well... except when I'm drunk.)

alexd1976 wrote:
Also, could you expand your third point a bit? I don't want to comment on it without knowing more clearly what your intention was there.

you mean this: "But why at vastly different speeds depending on a criterium that is solely based on bodily maneuverability?"

The key difference in wearing a medium armor made of steel and an identically shaped armor made of mithral, is that the mithral one doesn't limit you're bodily movements as much. You can walk (and fly) faster in it. The Fly spell taking this into account "because magic" is a really weak answer. If the whole process of flying is a purely mental affair, there's absolutely no reason why an identical armor made of a different material would matter.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Dissection of the rules is what occurs on these boards.

Are you new here?

That's particularly funny.

Yeah, I sure thought so. Threads that nitpick the rules, often boiling down to two dramatically opposed intransigent camps, are legion in this forum.

Corner cases especially are used to try to push and explore the boundaries to try and gain some perspective and triangulation of what the RAW means and its implications across the board.

This thread is neither rare, nor unusual in its content.

Nah I thought it was funny that you suggested I was new here or to these kinds of arguments when I have about 1000 more posts than you.

When I see rule disputes like these there are often three sides, though I don't think you see the third side.

People who read it as A.
People who read it as B.
People who read it as A/B because they need it to work that way.

You're arguing like group 3.

Most of the time when people try to divine other people's motivations, they are wrong. It's a fool's errand to even try, the messageboard medium just isn't set up for that type of remote psychological evaluation.

All you really need to understand with regard to the vehemence that BOTH sides are arguing with is that this is the internet.

https://xkcd.com/386/

I don't play PFS, so RAW only matters so far. My particular group relies on a logical consistency of the rules, so if this ever came up, it would likely be a non-issue.

Shadow Lodge

I think I missed this, but paralysis states that only winged creatures who are paralyzed fall to the ground. Explicitly stating what happens to winged creatures means something differently happens to those flying without wings. What is that? They can't stay in the same place; that's something only a DC 15 Fly check can do.


Forseti wrote:


You concentrate a tiny little bit. It results in your legs moving. Your "concentration" has successfully initiated a move action to walk, which is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition.

Wait, so your legs are allowed to 'move' while you're paralyzed, you just can't use that leg movement to actually 'move' using a move action?

That's not how I picture paralyzed at all, it seems we have found our disagreement.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Forseti wrote:


You concentrate a tiny little bit. It results in your legs moving. Your "concentration" has successfully initiated a move action to walk, which is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition.

Wait, so your legs are allowed to 'move' while you're paralyzed, you just can't use that leg movement to actually 'move' using a move action?

That's not how I picture paralyzed at all, it seems we have found our disagreement.

Jeez, you people are hard to please. Let me rephrase.

You concentrate a tiny little bit. It results in your legs moving. Your "concentration" has successfully initiated a move action to walk. Except of course when you're paralyzed, because by walking you move, and moving is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition.

Also changed in the post you quoted, for clarity.


Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Forseti wrote:


You concentrate a tiny little bit. It results in your legs moving. Your "concentration" has successfully initiated a move action to walk, which is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition.

Wait, so your legs are allowed to 'move' while you're paralyzed, you just can't use that leg movement to actually 'move' using a move action?

That's not how I picture paralyzed at all, it seems we have found our disagreement.

Jeez, you people are hard to please. Let me rephrase.

You concentrate a tiny little bit. It results in your legs moving. Your "concentration" has successfully initiated a move action to walk. Except of course when you're paralyzed, because by walking you move, and moving is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition.

Yeah, that's not helpful at all. Which 'moving' is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition, the 'moving' of the legs, or the 'move' using a move action? Those are different meanings of the word 'move', so which one does Paralyzed disallow?


Serum wrote:
I think I missed this, but paralysis states that only winged creatures who are paralyzed fall to the ground. Explicitly stating what happens to winged creatures means something differently happens to those flying without wings. What is that? They can't stay in the same place; that's something only a DC 15 Fly check can do.

That's what the whole thread is about. It sounds like something should happen that isn't falling from the sky, but due to stat limits from paralysis that's what would happen anyway. The competing theories are that flight is purely mental, except where it applies to carrying capacity and fine maneuvering or that the granted flight is somehow physical and can't be use as a move option with a move action due to paralysis.

There are ways to clear this up of course, a school change that focused on moving the pure magical force movement abilities to the evocation school would be my personal choice as transmutation already has most of the good stuff.

I think we've mostly settled in at this point since until we have a clearer definition of "purely mental" the discussion can't go anywhere.


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_Ozy_ wrote:
Yeah, that's not helpful at all. Which 'moving' is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition, the 'moving' of the legs, or the 'move' using a move action? Those are different meanings of the word 'move', so which one does Paralyzed disallow?

Moving. Any definition of the word you can find, you can't do it, except if the whole process of it is purely mental. Anything other than mental? You can't do it. You can't move someone to tears while paralyzed. You can't move to dismiss a court case. You can't move to a different town. You can't move a pawn on a chessboard. You can't move across the border. You can't move by flight, or by walking. You can however move away from previously held beliefs, because that's a mental thing.


Forseti wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking" Would you be willing to admit that this sentence implies that concentration equivalent to walking is the only thing you need to use the spell?

You really don't read what I write, do you?

I'm completely in agreement with that.

You concentrate a tiny little bit. It results in your body moving through the air by magic. Your "concentration" has successfully initiated a move action to move, which is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition.

It works exactly the same as:

You concentrate a tiny little bit. It results in your legs moving. Your "concentration" has successfully initiated a move action to walk, which is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition.

The concentration isn't an action, it's the mental process that precedes every non-autonomous physical action.

This is what is meant by that phrase you keep quoting.

The phrase isn't "Using a fly spell requires only concentration", it's "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking".

(Which, by the way, I would argue is no concentration at all, because mindless creatures can't concentrate on anything, yet they can still walk. I know I never really concentrate on walking, well... except when I'm drunk.)

alexd1976 wrote:
Also, could you expand your third point a bit? I don't want to comment on it without knowing more clearly what your intention was there.

you mean this: "But why at vastly different speeds depending on a criterium that is solely based on bodily maneuverability?"

The key difference in wearing a medium armor made of steel and an identically shaped armor made of mithral, is that the mithral one doesn't limit you're bodily movements as much. You can walk (and fly) faster in it. The Fly spell taking this into account "because magic" is a really weak answer. If the whole process of flying is a purely mental affair, there's absolutely no reason why an identical armor made of a different material would matter.

Actually your assumption is incorrect, I do read what you write.

Nowhere in the paralyzed condition does it forbid move actions. It does forbid you from moving, that much is obvious, but it makes a point of saying you can, in fact, perform actions.

Granted, there is a limitation on what type of action you can use, but it doesn't prevent 'Move Actions'.

You can use 'Move Actions', as I have pointed out previously, to perform actions that have NOTHING to do with movement. It is simply an action type, and you still have access to it while paralyzed.

Paralyzed explicitly allows you to perform actions, as long as they are 'purely mental'. They put that in there for a reason.

I agree that there isn't a codified, defined, glossary contained explanation of what this is.

But you can't just dismiss that it exists, it is in print, right there in the condition description.

I have only made two assumptions here.

1-Concentration and Mental Actions are compatible, concentration/Concentration are not 'physical actions', they are 'purely mental'

2-Fly allows you to go aloft with magic, it is not your body that generates the movement, it is the spell that moves your body through space, like being carried by an invisible, mindless force that you control with your thoughts.

So these two assumptions I have made, are why I think you can use Fly even if paralyzed.

When I lie in bed thinking about this, it wouldn't matter if I was paralyzed or not, I can still concentrate on the situation.

There are LOTS of penalties for being paralyzed, and being able to Fly in this state would likely require you to be naked, so this really is a corner case that probably will NEVER happen, but I do feel it works this way.

I would allow it if it ever happened in my game. I would also point and laugh at the naked, paralyzed loser who couldn't even go around corners in a dungeon.


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alexd1976 wrote:

Actually your assumption is incorrect, I do read what you write.

Nowhere in the paralyzed condition does it forbid move actions. It does forbid you from moving, that much is obvious, but it makes a point of saying you can, in fact, perform actions.

Granted, there is a limitation on what type of action you can use, but it doesn't prevent 'Move Actions'.

You can use 'Move Actions', as I have pointed out previously, to perform actions that have NOTHING to do with movement. It is simply an action type, and you still have access to it while paralyzed.

But this move action to fly is the Move action, the one that reads: "The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.

Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed)."

If it was a different action, the spell would say so. Like Levitate does. The Fly spell gives you a speed. It tells you you can charge. Everything about it just screams "use the regular systems for moving!" It doesn't mention any other kind of action you need to take as a move action, and because it doesn't, you use the regular rules for movement. It's that simple.

alexd1976 wrote:
Paralyzed explicitly allows you to perform actions, as long as they are 'purely mental'. They put that in there for a reason.

Indeed, they put that there to let you control spells like Levitate, which explicitly defines that control as a mental action. Fly does no such thing. It gives the subject a speed, and that speed is restricted by physical restrictions similar to walking. That's all it says it does.

alexd1976 wrote:
But you can't just dismiss that it exists, it is in print, right there in the condition description.

I don't. I can't for the life of my find any excuse to put use of the Fly spell in that category.

alexd1976 wrote:
1-Concentration and Mental Actions are compatible, concentration/Concentration are not 'physical actions', they are 'purely mental'

But there's no proof that the fly spell needs concentration. It only needs as much as walking does. Which is a meaningless statement, because the amount of concentration needed to walk isn't mentioned anywhere. Many other rules imply that it's zero.

alexd1976 wrote:
2-Fly allows you to go aloft with magic, it is not your body that generates the movement, it is the spell that moves your body through space, like being carried by an invisible, mindless force that you control with your thoughts.

But it is your body that gains the ability to fly. By magic. There is nothing to imply differenly. "The subject can fly..." not: "the subject can propel itself through the air by mentally controlling a magical force." It's just not there. If a spell grants you an ability, you have that ability. "The subject can fly..." and "poof!" suddenly your body generates the movement. It's magic.

alexd1976 wrote:
So these two assumptions I have made, are why I think you can use Fly even if paralyzed.

They are unnecessary assumption because the exact text of the Fly spell along with the regular movement rules work perfectly fine. If they don't let you fly while paralyzed, too bad. But perfectly RAI as far as I'm concerned.

alexd1976 wrote:
There are LOTS of penalties for being paralyzed, and being able to Fly in this state would likely require you to be naked, so this really is a corner case that probably will NEVER happen, but I do feel it works this way.

Well, I think it's about time to agree to disagree.

alexd1976 wrote:
I would allow it if it ever happened in my game. I would also point and laugh at the naked, paralyzed loser who couldn't even go around corners in a dungeon.

I would laugh too, but in my game he'd be on the floor, weirdly contorted and sporting some bruises from his recent crash.


Forseti wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Yeah, that's not helpful at all. Which 'moving' is disallowed by the Paralyzed condition, the 'moving' of the legs, or the 'move' using a move action? Those are different meanings of the word 'move', so which one does Paralyzed disallow?
Moving. Any definition of the word you can find, you can't do it, except if the whole process of it is purely mental. Anything other than mental? You can't do it. You can't move someone to tears while paralyzed. You can't move to dismiss a court case. You can't move to a different town. You can't move a pawn on a chessboard.

So, TK doesn't work while paralyzed? Or is all of the above just another way of saying that you can't move your limbs or otherwise engage your muscles?

Quote:
You can't move across the border. You can't move by flight, or by walking. You can however move away from previously held beliefs, because that's a mental thing.

The claim that a single use of the word 'move' covers every single disparate meaning of the word is so 100% not how pathfinder works, I'm a bit surprised that you're trotting it out. Just when are we supposed to apply such broad definitions to the terms in the rules? Do you have any guidelines regarding that?

Furthermore, we already have specific examples that I don't believe you've refuted, such as moving by mental command on a flying carpet or similar item that would allow you to 'move across the border' and 'move by flight'.

These inconsistencies plague your argument, compared to the much simpler interpretation that paralyzed means that you can't move/activate your limbs/muscles. This is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of what the word 'move' means, and doesn't paint you into all of those unreasonable corners.


_Ozy_ wrote:
So, TK doesn't work while paralyzed? Or is all of the above just another way of saying that you can't move your limbs or otherwise engage your muscles?

Isn't TK purely a mental action then? I thought I made an allowance for that.

_Ozy_ wrote:
The claim that a single use of the word 'move' covers every single disparate meaning of the word is so 100% not how pathfinder works, I'm a bit surprised that you're trotting it out. Just when are we supposed to apply such broad definitions to the terms in the rules? Do you have any guidelines regarding that?

Presented as it is, conjuncted as an equal with another verb that isn't a rules term, and with no context at all to interpret which version of the game term it should refer to, the whole phrase "frozen in place and unable to move or act." seems to be one we need to interpret as just an English phrase and not one laden with rules terms.

_Ozy_ wrote:
Furthermore, we already have specific examples that I don't believe you've refuted, such as moving by mental command on a flying carpet or similar item that would allow you to 'move across the border' and 'move by flight'.

That's not moving, that's being moved.

_Ozy_ wrote:
These inconsistencies plague your argument, compared to the much simpler interpretation that paralyzed means that you can't move/activate your limbs/muscles. This is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of what the word 'move' means, and doesn't paint you into all of those unreasonable corners.

There aren't any unreasonable corners, just corners you're painting as unreasonable to serve your argument. What's really unreasonable is to place assumed limitations on the phrase.

Sovereign Court

Insain Dragoon wrote:
OilHorse wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

Personally I'd say that if something is no action or action: None then it can be purely mental or sensory.

Under that definition fly still doesnt work while paralyzed because flying is an action.

Guys, try to remember the condition:

Quote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Thus the whole argument. If fly is mental, then it falls under that exception.

Where does it say that Flying is no action or action: none?

Where does it say flight is a purely mental action?

If you can show me anywhere in the spell text that says that, I will agree that flight is possible while paralyzed.

Show where it says that the Fly spell requires physical movement?

It only states that it requires as much concentration as walking.

No where is it mentioned the type of physical actions used.

It doesn't say anywhere that it changes the normal rules for movement, so the rules still apply. Therefore if you are paralyzed you can't move.

If your STR/DEx is 0 you cant move.

You can't move.

What are the normal rules for movement?

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