I'm doing some lvl 2 retraining for my Halfling Unchained Monk/Unchained Poisoner (Rogue) and am looking at messing with my Abilities some.
Originally, he had them set at 10/16/14/12/14/13 and now I'm looking at 10/18/10/13/14/12. My concept includes Craft (Alchemy) and versatile Knowledge checks, hence the higher INT.
While I have done a CON 10 character before, that was because I didn't realize how important it was since I was new to the game. That character has 12 CON thanks to a BoMC and his DD levels give him D12s for hit dice and another +2 CON later. He's lvl 8 now and has died twice so far.
This new character won't get DD bonuses, so I'm looking for advice on how to play with low CON. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
A wand of cure light wounds or a ring of regeneration would help. How high is your use magic device?
I don't have access to the unchained rules, so I hope they include rules for letting monks do more damage. A dead enemy won't cost you any hit points.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
d8 melee classes with 10 con?
Drop the 18 to a 17 and put the points into con. You'll have an ability point at level 4 you can put into it
|
As a monk? Carry lots of diamond dust for your raise deads.
In all seriousness there really isn't a good way to play a melee character with low HP. Even if you crank your AC into the stratosphere there's always natural 20s and (non-reflex) "save for half" effects to worry about. It's doable for casters and archers if you are careful but the only way to do it as a melee is to avoid dangerous situations. And that's just going to end up putting the rest of your party in danger.
If you haven't already planned out all your feats, look at toughness. Put all your FCBs into HP. You've got the Int for Combat Expertise so use that. Consider Dodge and Crane Style and fight defensively all the time. It will cut way down on your damage but at least you'll survive more.
So, 13 CON with 14 @ 12th lvl...
DEX is the single most important stat for this character (Attack, Damage, AC, REF, Initiative, CMD, Skill Checks, etc). Is a +1 CON mod so important to weaken all of this until 4th level (+1 DEX) and delay his Concept from being mildly feasible until 8th (+1 INT)?
Yes, I could boost CON to a 13 by dropping DEX by 1 or to 12 by dropping CHA by 2. However, before doing that, I'd like some thoughts on playing with 10 CON.
Point buy wise its more effective to put Points into your highest stat.
If you have a 10 con you stay in the back. Even then you can get crisped.
As a monk? Carry lots of diamond dust for your raise deads.
In all seriousness there really isn't a good way to play a melee character with low HP. Even if you crank your AC into the stratosphere there's always natural 20s and (non-reflex) "save for half" effects to worry about. It's doable for casters and archers if you are careful but the only way to do it as a melee is to avoid dangerous situations. And that's just going to end up putting the rest of your party in danger.
If you haven't already planned out all your feats, look at toughness. Put all your FCBs into HP. You've got the Int for Combat Expertise so use that. Consider Dodge and Crane Style and fight defensively all the time. It will cut way down on your damage but at least you'll survive more.
Why do I have to be melee? As it stands, most of my fighting through 3 chronicles was with a Rope Dart. (but then I didn't have Weapon Finesse yet) Before, I was all gungho for melee because I only really had access to bludgeoning weapons (and imagining contact poisons). I'm now looking at using a hand crossbow to deliver injury poisons while still being threatening with my oversized hobbit feet. (Maybe a 1-2 level dip into Bolt Ace)
Playing a d8 class (or two) with 10 CON and melee combat?
I recommend against it. Melee means you'll be putting yourself in harm's way for attacks and for any damage-dealing bursts. You'll be able to deal with one hit or Burning Hands reasonably well (Without evasion, a high reflex save is nice, but you'll still get hurt), before you have to start fearing for your life - and with a low Fortitude save, your chance of stabilising and not forcing the party to re-task to rescue you from death is low.
You said yourself, 10 CON with mixed d12s still died twice.
10/18/10/13/14/12 - (I'm assuming after racials) you've got the intelligence for many skill ranks, including Charismatic face skills (which are class skills) - why not go 10/18/12/13/14/10?
Get 14 INT at 4th (which will only help with the skill point deal), work up to 20 DEX at 12th.
Edit - you've just said your 'why do I have to be melee bit' - I had assumed melee from Weapon Finesse and Unchained Monk.
Well, yes, originally was. Now looking at hybrid. That said, you bring up a good point with the skill rank bit. 4-8 + INT ranks per level can cover the lack of bonuses from CHA.
10/18/12/13/14/10 still works when I think about it like that, especially since there's no negative mods (I hate dump stats).
|
I've played 2 monks through PFS without having a CON bonus.
I never had a problem. I focused on high mobility during combat, battle field control (via high CMB and maneuvers) because MUCH of the PFS encounters I had were against men/humanoids with weapons.
With a high enough WIS and DEX, a high enough AC, I was rarely hit. Healing was silly anyhow, and never a real problem. Someone could almost always use a CLW wand. Buy one of those, you are all set.
My first build was a Trip/Panther style mobile monk. I often opened myself to AoO on purpose, then panther strike feat chain to hit back or eventually first, trip and control where people went.
My second was similar, but instead of trip, I focused on dirty trick, reposition, and disarming.
Never had an issue with it. Never came close to dying. I think I dropped negative only when I was level 1, and playing a tier 3 adventure.
Frankly, I wouldn't really worry about it. Besides, I enjoy the danger of potentially losing a character. Makes it far more "real" to me.
I've got two different melee frontliners with a 12 con. I just retired my rogue/barbarian/figher two-weapon fighter at 12th level, without a single death--meanwhile, another melee fighter who chided me for having a low Con had died three times.
My other one is a tetori monk, who just pumps her AC into the high 30s while pinning opponents.
It's all about the stratgy, I guess. See how hard the other guy hits, estimate how many times you can take a similar hit before you go down, and make sure the other guy goes down before you do. If you can't take two more hits, back off and down a potion.
Why do I have to be melee? As it stands, most of my fighting through 3 chronicles was with a Rope Dart. (but then I didn't have Weapon Finesse yet) Before, I was all gungho for melee because I only really had access to bludgeoning weapons (and imagining contact poisons). I'm now looking at using a hand crossbow to deliver injury poisons while still being threatening with my oversized hobbit feet. (Maybe a 1-2 level dip into Bolt Ace)As a monk? Carry lots of diamond dust for your raise deads.
In all seriousness there really isn't a good way to play a melee character with low HP. Even if you crank your AC into the stratosphere there's always natural 20s and (non-reflex) "save for half" effects to worry about. It's doable for casters and archers if you are careful but the only way to do it as a melee is to avoid dangerous situations. And that's just going to end up putting the rest of your party in danger.
If you haven't already planned out all your feats, look at toughness. Put all your FCBs into HP. You've got the Int for Combat Expertise so use that. Consider Dodge and Crane Style and fight defensively all the time. It will cut way down on your damage but at least you'll survive more.
It kinda feels like monk is a wasted class here then. Threatening with your other limbs is nice, but if you're standing in the back with a hand crossbow you're not doing flurry of blows or anything else meaning you have a class just to give you Improved unarmed strike which is a waste.
If you're planning on doing hand crossbow and moving into/out of melee while doing flurry of blows then that means there are points you expect to be in melee.
That means leaving yourself with a 10 con is still dangerous. Withdraw actions can save you sometimes, but the path away isn't always clear enough to avoid provoking (as you're only clear on the 1st square of movement). So I'd hope the plan here isn't "melee then run away when things look bad and crossbow from range" as you're playing a much riskier gamble then.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My personal standard for melee combat is at least 14 con, if I ever have to drop to 12 con, I will normally get toughness feat so the HP is the same.
Although IMO HP total is not as important as your total con to determine if you bleed out and suffer a permanent death. Having a lower con puts you at much higher risk of that each time you fall in combat.
I have had 2 characters die: a High con Gnome cleric that... lived the longest before bonekeep ... well bonekeeped him in a TPK.
I had a 12 con tengu go from full hit points to colonel sanders extra crispy dead in one fireball
I have killed one character. A 12 con elven magus in between a pair of two weapon fighting rogues. One session before hand there was a joke about his familiar circling a belt of con in the pathfinder catalog (before IT got turned into a bucket of KFC by a fireball)
Looking at a hybrid of melee/ranged with finesseable kicks/monk weapons occasionally coated in poison and hand crossbows at range with poisoned bolts. I like the 10/18/12/13/14/10 setup. Probably monk6/poisoner5/bolt ace 1. Belt of DEX or CON...?
Now to figure out how to do this with -1 feat since I took a Concept related feat that can only be taken at lvl 1 - Noble Scion (Lore)
Our group actually has a con 9 bard; he usually does try to hang in the back, and our GM is usually kind enough to focus most of his melee bosses to attack my barbarian instead.
Part of me wonders how well you'll handle Fort saves; whether the +1 from pushing to 12 will be significant in the long run or not.
|
10 con will be enough for 90% of your PFS experience if you play your cards right. Get rogue 3 for dex to damage ASAP. Make sure you are never the first in line for melee. Don't be afraid to let an Eidolon or Animal Companion outshine you if it means staying alive and letting it eat full attacks from the biggest of the big nasties. And as soon as you can afford it, keep a potion of bear's endurance every scenario to chug at the start of boss fights. Focus on the defensive side of your "big 6" items before the offensive part.
It's the 10% that might get you. Encounters that start with the party surrounded or otherwise ambushed hurt: my freshly level 5 Summoner has 12 con and was instagibbed by the DM getting two lucky crits in a row. The other problem is the pick-up nature of PFS: in some rare occasions you will be the only front liner of the team and you will have to be satisfied with taking naps and soaking up Cure Light wand charges.
|
|
A rope dart is melee. It has a 20' range with no way to go beyond one range increment. You may be rolling ranged attacks, but you are in melee range of anyone who wants to attack you and should treat it as such.
You can reduce your to hit and AC by one point for three levels in exchange for an extra two hit points per level, which will likely save your life.
My monk is STR based, and I started with a 16. Having an 17 starting dex for a dex based monk is fine for PFS play.
Avoid wraiths.
A rope dart is melee. It has a 20' range with no way to go beyond one range increment. You may be rolling ranged attacks, but you are in melee range of anyone who wants to attack you and should treat it as such.
You can reduce your to hit and AC by one point for three levels in exchange for an extra two hit points per level, which will likely save your life.
My monk is STR based, and I started with a 16. Having an 17 starting dex for a dex based monk is fine for PFS play.
Create pit as a held action is a great combo for someone using rope darts. The first 5 times the GM has to have the bad guy try to run up on the rope dart user.
Can your monk use a longspear? Cause partial cover can be your best friend.
I play a Rogue (Charlatan/Skirmisher)8/Fighter (Lore Warden)2/Noble Scion 6 in a Rise of the Runelords campaign; we are currently about to start Book 6. I have had a 10 Con since 1st level (just gaining, in between the 5th and 6th book, a belt that gives me +4 Con). I survived just fine, although it took a-lot of intelligent play and a Wand of Bull's Endurance (once we could afford one).
As long as you adjust your play style to account for the reduced HP, a melee can still survive with a 10 Con (you may even take it as a challenge). As a matter of fact, although I was in melee in every combat, we completed the whole first book with my character taking only 1 damage (which was from an Entangle from a goblin druid).
Be prepared to embrace Possum style kung fu
Charisma dump is always an option. A circlet of persuasion will make a 7 charisma functionally a 12
#dumpstathater
I would leave wisdom and charisma at 10.
Problem with that is that I'll lose the AC and Ki Pool abilities of the Monk, my Stunning Fist may as well not exist, and no Will saves. Charisma, I've decided I can safely 10 that and bump my Constitution to 12.
#dumpstathater10 CON is dumping it.
By dump stat, I mean less than 10
It depends on the lethality of the campaign.
Many campaigns start out magical story time but go all Resident Evil near the end.
|
|
I would leave wisdom and charisma at 10.Problem with that is that I'll lose the AC and Ki Pool abilities of the Monk, my Stunning Fist may as well not exist, and no Will saves. Charisma, I've decided I can safely 10 that and bump my Constitution to 12.
By dump stat, I mean less than 10#dumpstathater10 CON is dumping it.
Yeah sorry, forgot about the monk part briefly.